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- Thread starter obi
- Start date
Yeah obviously, but what I was saying (I guess I didn't explain clearly enough) was that with Protect, Dialga will only ever have to take 2 Draco Meteors.
DM has 8 PP at most. Pressure effectively makes that 4 PP, but with Protect every other turn, only 2 Draco Meteors will hit. I.e.
Turn 1: Protect, DM (6PP left)
Turn 2: DM (4PP left), Haban, Sub
Turn 3: Protect, DM (2PP left)
Turn 4: DM (0PP left), Sub breaks, rest
Turn 5 onwards: Struggle... Dialga wouldn't even have to take a 3rd DM even though the 3rd DM at -4 will do fairly pathetic damage anyway, but this just increases Dialga's chance of winning by a fair bit (basically Dialga can only win if it crits on the first DM, which is 6.25% * 90% = 5.6% chance of winning for Scarf Dialga)
Athenodoros
Official Smogon Know-It-All
Gotcha.
EDIT: I am sad to say, that I don't think Lapras can dominate Ambipom. Focus Punch just messes you up too much. I will, however, obviously keep trying.
EDIT2: Yes, I am convinced that Lapras can not dominate Ambipom, but I also think that Ambipom can not dominate Lapras because of all of Lapras' support moves.
Working on it.
EDIT: I am sad to say, that I don't think Lapras can dominate Ambipom. Focus Punch just messes you up too much. I will, however, obviously keep trying.
EDIT2: Yes, I am convinced that Lapras can not dominate Ambipom, but I also think that Ambipom can not dominate Lapras because of all of Lapras' support moves.
I looked briefly into that.
Lapras / Shell Armor @ Sitrus Berry
Bold/Impish
252 HP 252 Def 4 Sp Def
- Sheer Cold / Ice Shard
... Ambipom cannot 2HKO I think (not including Fake Out first turn as a turn). Beats Ambipom 51% of the time (Probability of Sheer Cold hitting at least once out of 2 tries is 1-0.7*0.7=51%) if Lapras Sheer Colds first turn.
I haven't really found an Ambipom sets that can beat that yet. (Just a note: Lapras can't run protect first turn, because Ambipom can nasty Plot and 2HKO.)
Ambipom has no priority move other than fake out, so yah, ice shard for sash.
Lapras / Shell Armor @ Sitrus Berry
Bold/Impish
252 HP 252 Def 4 Sp Def
- Sheer Cold / Ice Shard
... Ambipom cannot 2HKO I think (not including Fake Out first turn as a turn). Beats Ambipom 51% of the time (Probability of Sheer Cold hitting at least once out of 2 tries is 1-0.7*0.7=51%) if Lapras Sheer Colds first turn.
I haven't really found an Ambipom sets that can beat that yet. (Just a note: Lapras can't run protect first turn, because Ambipom can nasty Plot and 2HKO.)
Ambipom has no priority move other than fake out, so yah, ice shard for sash.
Athenodoros
Official Smogon Know-It-All
I was assuming standard clauses, so no OHKO.
EDIT: Also, Fake Out + Focus Punch + Low Kick beats that set 70% of the time.
EDIT: Also, Fake Out + Focus Punch + Low Kick beats that set 70% of the time.
From what i understand psych up will get rid of suicunes accuracy problems. Psych up/cm/rest/mirrorcoat will avoid domination from that. Everytime raikou mudslaps suicune can psych up. They have the same amount of pp. Cm meets a suicune cm. Rest meets a suicune rest. Raikou will eventually have to thunderbolt and when it does will fall to mirror coat. Extreme predection is needed to do that...but raikou must predect nun the less.
Yeah, you're right. Psych Up will solve the accuracy issue.
And yeah, Focus Punch followed by Low Kick... dunno why I didn't think about that haha.
EDIT: I am thinking that Shaymin might have a set for dominating Suicune.
OK, not sure if this one is all good, but it seems to do the trick...
Shaymin @ Leftovers
Careful
16 HP 252 Sp Def 240 Speed
- Leech Seed / Seed Bomb / Psych Up / Filler (Synthesis?)
Speed outspeeds max speed Suicune.
Always Leech Seed first turn. If Suicune uses Calm Mind or Icy Wind*, always Psych Up the next turn. Modest Blizzard does 55.7% max to Shaymin, which means not 2HKO (it will need to Calm Mind in order to KO with Icy Wind + Blizzard... that's why Shaymin has to Psych Up to the Calm Mind to keep itself on level ground, and it has to Psych Up after Icy Wind also because it has to be faster than Suicune, or else Icy Wind followed by Calm Mind would mean game over for Shaymin).
Choice Specs Blizzard does 82.9% max (76.5% average), but Blizzard hitting twice in a row is 49% (though leech seed is only 90%)... However, after leech seed first turn, Leech Seed recovers minimum 11% of Shaymin's health, and Leftovers recovers 6.25%. Um, so many different probabilities, so I'll just assume average damage for Blizzard for now. 11 + 6.25 = 17.25% of recovery. If Shaymin uses synthesis on 2nd turn, it will have: 100 - 76.5 + 17.25 + 50 = 90.75% enough to survive the 2nd blizzard even if it hits. By that notion, it will have on average 1.25% health (a few HP left) even if the 3rd Blizzard hits, and 3 blizzards hitting in a row is only 34.3%. Chances are, it will have missed by then. After 5 turns of leech seed (Suicune at 37.5% health) Seed Bomb will KO (min 40.6%).
Choice Specs Ice Beam does max 65.5%, so Shaymin can just Synthesis back to full health for 4 turns (freeze chance for 5 turns of ice beam = 41%... a bit dangerous lol but still over 50% chance to win even accounting for leech seed's accuracy) and then Seed Bomb for KO.
Seed Bomb always 3HKOs Suicune after leech seed, so rest on Suicune wouldn't do. I doubt Suicune can toxi stall Shaymin too...
I'm totally not sure I have everything covered. So, whoever got something regarding Shaymin vs Suicune... just go ahead! :)
And yeah, Focus Punch followed by Low Kick... dunno why I didn't think about that haha.
EDIT: I am thinking that Shaymin might have a set for dominating Suicune.
OK, not sure if this one is all good, but it seems to do the trick...
Shaymin @ Leftovers
Careful
16 HP 252 Sp Def 240 Speed
- Leech Seed / Seed Bomb / Psych Up / Filler (Synthesis?)
Speed outspeeds max speed Suicune.
Always Leech Seed first turn. If Suicune uses Calm Mind or Icy Wind*, always Psych Up the next turn. Modest Blizzard does 55.7% max to Shaymin, which means not 2HKO (it will need to Calm Mind in order to KO with Icy Wind + Blizzard... that's why Shaymin has to Psych Up to the Calm Mind to keep itself on level ground, and it has to Psych Up after Icy Wind also because it has to be faster than Suicune, or else Icy Wind followed by Calm Mind would mean game over for Shaymin).
Choice Specs Blizzard does 82.9% max (76.5% average), but Blizzard hitting twice in a row is 49% (though leech seed is only 90%)... However, after leech seed first turn, Leech Seed recovers minimum 11% of Shaymin's health, and Leftovers recovers 6.25%. Um, so many different probabilities, so I'll just assume average damage for Blizzard for now. 11 + 6.25 = 17.25% of recovery. If Shaymin uses synthesis on 2nd turn, it will have: 100 - 76.5 + 17.25 + 50 = 90.75% enough to survive the 2nd blizzard even if it hits. By that notion, it will have on average 1.25% health (a few HP left) even if the 3rd Blizzard hits, and 3 blizzards hitting in a row is only 34.3%. Chances are, it will have missed by then. After 5 turns of leech seed (Suicune at 37.5% health) Seed Bomb will KO (min 40.6%).
Choice Specs Ice Beam does max 65.5%, so Shaymin can just Synthesis back to full health for 4 turns (freeze chance for 5 turns of ice beam = 41%... a bit dangerous lol but still over 50% chance to win even accounting for leech seed's accuracy) and then Seed Bomb for KO.
Seed Bomb always 3HKOs Suicune after leech seed, so rest on Suicune wouldn't do. I doubt Suicune can toxi stall Shaymin too...
I'm totally not sure I have everything covered. So, whoever got something regarding Shaymin vs Suicune... just go ahead! :)
Toxic stall suicune DOES beat that shaymin. Max/max suicune takes 28.2% - 33.2% from seed bomb.
Turn 1-Suicune toxics, Shaymin leech seeds. Does 12.5% while suicune recovers 6.25%. Suicune-93.25% Shaymin-93.75% Toxic damage @ 6.25%
Turn 2-Suicune protects. Suicune-87.5% Shaymin-87.5%. Toxic damage@ 12.5%
Turn 3-Suicune subs. Shaymin seed bombs. Suicune loses 30.7% and 25%. Then 12.5 from leech seed. It has 18.8% and then recovers from leftovers. Suicune-25.05% Shaymin 81.25% Toxic damage @ 18.75%
Turn 4-Suicune protects. Suicune-12.55. Shaymin-68.75% Toxic damage @ 25%
Turn 5-Suicune ice beams. Does 28.7%. Shaymin breaks the sub. Suicune almost dies to leech seed, but lives. Suicune-6.3% Shaymin-27.55% Toxic damage @31.25%
Turn 6-Shaymin seed bombs, suicune dies. Shaymin does not heal from leech seed. 27.55+6.25=33.8%. Toxic then kills shaymin, forcing a tie.
Suicune @ leftovers
252hp 252def bold
~sub
~protect
~ice beam
~toxic
Suicune can also run icy wind over ice beam to get in more damage (with lower acc). Not sure if its worth it, but if i did my calcs wrong its always an option. Suicune icy winds as shaymin breaks the sub...shaymin cant psych up a sub, so suicune is guarenteed to be faster. It can blizzard but that pushes the win percentage dangerously close to the 50% line (.85 toxic x.7 blizzard x the chance that seed bomb doesnt roll too much higher then avg damage on turn 3. If it does suicune dies on turn 4 when it protects. Leech seed can miss though so idk). If shaymin uses rest over synthisis it deffinitely loses to the hail suicune below
Suicune hails first turn. Cuts leftovers recovery and synthisis' healing to 1/4. Blizzard also gets 100% acc so it can be spammed for a 2hko after leech seed recovery (i think). If not suicune can just extremespeed for the ko. Suicune probably wants an expert belt. The chance you dont get any freezes during the spamming period is 17%. If shaymin decides it wants to seed bomb first turn, ice beam+icy wind+blizzard kos.
Suicune@expert belt
252spa 252def (+spa -spD nature)
~hail
~blizzard
~extreme speed/icy wind
~ice beam
Athenodoros
Official Smogon Know-It-All
I'm fairly sure that this counts as Shaymin winning, because I don't think Toxic damage is taken on the last turn of a battle. Also, anything which does not invest in Sp. Def. gets lolled by Seed Flare, so it definitely does not dominate.
It depends where you play. On PO it would be a tie...on shoddy it would be a shaymin win. I dont know what it would be on wifi since i dont play that. Seed flare gets mirrorcoated....instantly killing shaymin. We know suicune doesnt dominate shaymin (it does dominate breloom tho ^_^). Were trying to figure out whether or not shaymin dominates suicune.
Athenodoros
Official Smogon Know-It-All
I know that in-game, poison damage does not occur, and it would have to be the same on Wifi. And I assume that we are going with that, not PO.
Ok fine ill update. Heres what i came up with:
Turn 5-Suicune rests. Shaymin breaks the sub. Suicune-87.5% Shaymin-27.55% Toxic damage @31.25%
Turn 6-Shaymin seed bombs, does 30.7%. Suicune-50.55% Shaymin-2.55% Toxic @37.5%
Turn 7- Shaymin seed bombs, does 30.7%. Shaymin dies from toxic. Suicune-13.6% Shaymin-dead Toxic @43.75
If shaymin decides to use synthesis on turn 6 or 7 suicune will wake up on turn 8 and protect. Shaymin is now is worse shape then it would be if it didnt use synthesis since suicune will live the incomming seed bomb and procede to rest again, stalling for 2 more turns. Shaymin will now be 2hko'd by toxic and will fail to 2hko suicune after 3 leech seed damages. If shaymin tries to synthesis on turns suicune protects suicune can sub+protect.
New set is
Suicune @ lefties
252hp 252def bold
~toxic
~protect
~sub
~rest
@Boondocker: I think you did a calculation error for Turn 4?
At the end of turn 3. Shaymin has 81.25%. Leech seed recovers 14.5% of Shaymin's health (Suicune has 404 HP, divided by 8 = 50. Shaymin has 345 HP. 50/345 = 14.5%). Leech Seed recovers 6.25%, so that's 20.75% recovery in total. 81.25 + 20.75 > 100, so Shaymin has 100%, minus 25% toxic damage is 75%, not 68.75%. So Shaymin should have 75% at the end of turn 4.
More importantly though, if on Turn 5 Suicune used rest, it obviously didn't use Ice Beam, so Shaymin wouldn't be at 27.55%. It would have been at 75+20.75-31.25 = 64.5%.
After Turn 6, Shaymin is at 64.5 + 20.75 - 37.5 = 47.75
After Turn 7, Shaymin is at 47.75 + 20.75 - 43.75 = 24.75.
Turn 8, Shaymin KOs.
Also, Psych Up goes through Sub. (http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/substitute Fifth paragraph... also, I already knew and can verify that that's what happen anyways, from playing battle tower, Psych Up Magnezone and Umbreon so anoying...).
...
I was thinking something like Suicune @ Leftovers with Icy Wind / Calm Mind / Blizzard can actually beat Shaymin (I was having a hard time with this one before, and then I thought I got it down if Shaymin uses Psych Up whenever it gets Icy Winded.
Well, the reason why Shaymin HAS to Psych Up after being Icy Winded (or Calm Mind) is that after a Calm Mind, Icy Wind + Blizzard will KO Shaymin.
So if Shaymin does something, and then Suicune Calm Minds, Shaymin has to Psych Up next turn (unless it can KO with seed bomb, obviously), or else Suicune can Icy Wind + Blizzard. But if Shaymin used Psych Up as Suicune used Icy Wind, then it will get back to neutral Speed as well as copying the Calm Mind (so next turn Blizzard won't KO).
Likewise, if Suicune uses Icy Wind, Shaymin has to Psych Up next turn, or else Suicune can Calm mind and then KO Blizzard the following turn whereas if it used Psych Up, it'd psych up the Calm Mind and get back to neutral speed).
O yeah, and it's not like Shaymin has to continuously spam Psych Up if Suicune keeps using Icy Wind (if it did Shaymin will lose). It only needs to do it once... Better explained with scenario:
Turn 1: Leech Seed + Icy Wind.
Turn 2: Icy Wind + Psych Up. (Shaymin is back level ground and can Seed Bomb for damage next turn)
Or
Turn 1: Leech Seed + Icy Wind.
Turn 2: Calm Mind + Psych Up. (Same as above, except Shaymin takes even less damage)
Or
Turn 1: Leech Seed + Icy Wind.
Turn 3: Blizzard (55.7% max) + Psych Up. (Shaymin is back on level ground and can Synthesis to entirely nulify the damage from Blizzard since 55.7% means <50% after leftovers and leech seed).
... ... ...
Hm, I think I just found a way Suicune can beat that Shaymin though.
Modest @ Expert Belt (or ice plate or nevermeltice, etc)
252 SpA 252 Def
- Ice Beam
- Icy Wind
- Blizzard
With Expert Belt, Ice Beam followed by Icy Wind + Blizzard will KO Shaymin, assuming Shaymin uses leech seed first turn.
Blah... haha.
... maybe Shaymin needs an offensive set. Hm, this is interesting (but annoying) since Shaymin can run so many sets lol.
At the end of turn 3. Shaymin has 81.25%. Leech seed recovers 14.5% of Shaymin's health (Suicune has 404 HP, divided by 8 = 50. Shaymin has 345 HP. 50/345 = 14.5%). Leech Seed recovers 6.25%, so that's 20.75% recovery in total. 81.25 + 20.75 > 100, so Shaymin has 100%, minus 25% toxic damage is 75%, not 68.75%. So Shaymin should have 75% at the end of turn 4.
More importantly though, if on Turn 5 Suicune used rest, it obviously didn't use Ice Beam, so Shaymin wouldn't be at 27.55%. It would have been at 75+20.75-31.25 = 64.5%.
After Turn 6, Shaymin is at 64.5 + 20.75 - 37.5 = 47.75
After Turn 7, Shaymin is at 47.75 + 20.75 - 43.75 = 24.75.
Turn 8, Shaymin KOs.
Also, Psych Up goes through Sub. (http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/substitute Fifth paragraph... also, I already knew and can verify that that's what happen anyways, from playing battle tower, Psych Up Magnezone and Umbreon so anoying...).
...
I was thinking something like Suicune @ Leftovers with Icy Wind / Calm Mind / Blizzard can actually beat Shaymin (I was having a hard time with this one before, and then I thought I got it down if Shaymin uses Psych Up whenever it gets Icy Winded.
Well, the reason why Shaymin HAS to Psych Up after being Icy Winded (or Calm Mind) is that after a Calm Mind, Icy Wind + Blizzard will KO Shaymin.
So if Shaymin does something, and then Suicune Calm Minds, Shaymin has to Psych Up next turn (unless it can KO with seed bomb, obviously), or else Suicune can Icy Wind + Blizzard. But if Shaymin used Psych Up as Suicune used Icy Wind, then it will get back to neutral Speed as well as copying the Calm Mind (so next turn Blizzard won't KO).
Likewise, if Suicune uses Icy Wind, Shaymin has to Psych Up next turn, or else Suicune can Calm mind and then KO Blizzard the following turn whereas if it used Psych Up, it'd psych up the Calm Mind and get back to neutral speed).
O yeah, and it's not like Shaymin has to continuously spam Psych Up if Suicune keeps using Icy Wind (if it did Shaymin will lose). It only needs to do it once... Better explained with scenario:
Turn 1: Leech Seed + Icy Wind.
Turn 2: Icy Wind + Psych Up. (Shaymin is back level ground and can Seed Bomb for damage next turn)
Or
Turn 1: Leech Seed + Icy Wind.
Turn 2: Calm Mind + Psych Up. (Same as above, except Shaymin takes even less damage)
Or
Turn 1: Leech Seed + Icy Wind.
Turn 3: Blizzard (55.7% max) + Psych Up. (Shaymin is back on level ground and can Synthesis to entirely nulify the damage from Blizzard since 55.7% means <50% after leftovers and leech seed).
... ... ...
Hm, I think I just found a way Suicune can beat that Shaymin though.
Modest @ Expert Belt (or ice plate or nevermeltice, etc)
252 SpA 252 Def
- Ice Beam
- Icy Wind
- Blizzard
With Expert Belt, Ice Beam followed by Icy Wind + Blizzard will KO Shaymin, assuming Shaymin uses leech seed first turn.
Blah... haha.
... maybe Shaymin needs an offensive set. Hm, this is interesting (but annoying) since Shaymin can run so many sets lol.
Time to try for a 100% win situation again.
Deoxys Attack Forme @ Focus Sash
Pressure
Jolly, 252 AT/252 SPD/4 HP
- Aerial Ace
Vs. Caterpie
Caterpie can't wiggle out of this one. Deoxys A hits 438 speed with the set above, so Scarfed max speed Caterpie cannot outspeed it. Obviously Brightpowder doesn't work. Aerial Ace will always at least 2HKO (Max Def/HP Impish Caterpie takes 72.8% minimum.) And so, there is nothing Caterpie can do.
If this isn't an unchangable outcome I don't know what is.
Deoxys Attack Forme @ Focus Sash
Pressure
Jolly, 252 AT/252 SPD/4 HP
- Aerial Ace
Vs. Caterpie
Caterpie can't wiggle out of this one. Deoxys A hits 438 speed with the set above, so Scarfed max speed Caterpie cannot outspeed it. Obviously Brightpowder doesn't work. Aerial Ace will always at least 2HKO (Max Def/HP Impish Caterpie takes 72.8% minimum.) And so, there is nothing Caterpie can do.
If this isn't an unchangable outcome I don't know what is.
Caterpie @ Custap Berry
Adamant, 252 HP, 252 Def, 6 Atk
-Bug Bite
Turn 1 non-critical Aerial Ace does 79.59% to 93.88%. Caterpie uses Bug Bite for over half.
Turn 2 Custap Berry activates. Bug Bite. KO.
Beats that Deoxys 15/16 times. Not quite 100% but it's pretty close. =D
Caterpie @ Focus Band
-Bug Bite
Hang on with Focus Band every single time Deoxys attacks.
If Deoxys opens with Knock Off it can't beat this one 100%:
Caterpie @ BrightPowder
-Bug Bite
Knock Off misses and Caterpie 2HKOs with Bug Bite.
The 2nd one does beat out Caterpie though, because if Knock Off misses Caterpie on first turn, that means Caterpie has bright powder/lax incense (and not a flying-resist berry or sash or focus band, which would have been knocked off on first turn otherwise), so 2nd turn Deoxys outspeeds and Aerial Ace will KO.
So, always Knock Off first turn followed by Aerial Ace 2nd turn to win 100%?
(I'm not sure if berry activates before or after knock off, but if it activates before item is knocked off, then Deoxys will need Extremespeed also since Caterpie can be IV'd such that Knock Off will do enough damage to activate Custap berry, in which case there will be a notification that custap is activated, so Deoxys will know to ES {instead of AA} to KO without fear of it missing.).
EDIT: Oh! I was assuming Adamant for Deoxys-A which always KOs Caterpie that has no HP EVs... why Jolly when 0 speed Adamant outspeeds Jolly Scarf Caterpie? Deoxys-A should be Adamant with 252 Attack 252 Def 4 HP probably.
EDIT again: Oh, nevermind, maybe I'm wrong after all then, since Impish 24 HP 232 Attack 252 Def Caterpie has 0.4% chance to survive aerial ace while always 2HKOing Deoxys, so it can Bug Bite twice like TRE said.
Athenodoros
Official Smogon Know-It-All
I was also under the impression (I can't remember where I heard it though) that 100% accuracy moves do not always hit: with no accuracy or evasion boosts, they instead hit 255/256 times, which would make sense because if the accuracy roll comes back as zero, it would only make sense to hit if it always does. This would need to be taken into account for Knock Off.
Athenodoros
Official Smogon Know-It-All
Yes, I just looked it up on Bulbapedia. Apparently it was fixed in Gen II, although I still think it makes more sense the other way.
GOD DAMNIT CATERPIE AUUUUUUUUUGH
I can't seem to find a way to make this work. Focus Band makes it impossible to be holding a Choice Band, and unless Deoxys is running copious amounts of defense EVs, Caterpie can OHKO with Bug Bite.
Maybe I should choose a different test subject pairing.. Let me think about that for a bit.
I can't seem to find a way to make this work. Focus Band makes it impossible to be holding a Choice Band, and unless Deoxys is running copious amounts of defense EVs, Caterpie can OHKO with Bug Bite.
Maybe I should choose a different test subject pairing.. Let me think about that for a bit.
I would actually think Deoxy's would be 1 depending on the form he is in he is nearly unstoppable. Assuming arceus isn't holding an item that changes his type then Deoxy with Focus blast and a choice spec terminates Arceus nearly instantly. Not only that Deoxy he can beat kyogre pretty quickly with the right attacks. I have come across some of them myself and Deoxys is harder to beat then Arceus.
Deoxys-A: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD If deoxys has Extreme speed Thunder, Focus blast, and psycho boost. He stands a chance with Choice spec
Deoxys-A: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD If deoxys has Extreme speed Thunder, Focus blast, and psycho boost. He stands a chance with Choice spec
Athenodoros
Official Smogon Know-It-All
Arceus just using Extremespeed first turn beats Deoxys-A.
Kyogre beats that set with a Focus Sash.
And Deoxys-A is actually looked at in the OP.
Kyogre beats that set with a Focus Sash.
And Deoxys-A is actually looked at in the OP.
@Bynine: Choice Band Caterpie will always have a non-zero chance to OHKO Deoxys with critical hit Bug Bite. Deoxys-A will need sash, resist berry, or use some sort of weird sub-berry set, but I don't think it's even possible.