I'm pretty sure you stay locked into trick (not positive though).
Also, why are trick orb and twave on the same set.
Also, why are trick orb and twave on the same set.
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Pokemon rankings (Wobbuffet is #503)
- Thread starter obi
- Start date
Athenodoros
Official Smogon Know-It-All
Basically, there was one idea, which morphed into another, so TWave and Fling are irrelevant. Also, it can easily be beaten by Dark Pulse etc., but that just needs to be added onto to list. I suppose Spiritomb does dominate Zam.
Well I've been trying to find a way for Mewtwo to dominate Darkrai for about a half an hour and I don't see how it's possible. At first, I thought this set could do it:
Mewtwo @ (Dark Resist Berry)
EVs: 40 HP/252 SpDef/216 Spe
Nature: Timid
~ Taunt
~ Amnesia
~ Recover
~ Aura Sphere
However, in order for Mewtwo to beat Choice Specs Darkrai, it has to use Amnesia on the first and second turn to avoid being 2HKOd by Darkrai's Dark Pulse. However, if Darkrai uses Trick as Mewtwo uses Amnesia, Darkrai will win easily. Here's the 4 scenarios that would occur with this set against Specs Darkrai.
1. Mewtwo uses Amnesia as Darkrai uses Dark Pulse; Mewtwo wins.
2. Mewtwo uses Amnesia as Darkrai uses Trick; Darkrai wins.
3. Mewtwo uses Taunt as Darkrai uses Trick; Mewtwo wins.
4. Mewtwo uses Taunt as Darkrai uses Dark Pulse; Darkrai wins.
For scenario 4, Mewtwo will always be 2HKOd by Modest Choice Specs Darkrai's Dark Pulse, even if it uses Amnesia on the second turn. If it ran Calm to have a chance to survive it, it would lose to Timid Darkrai with Dark Void or Taunt. Protect + Disable beats any Choice Specs Darkrai, but Nasty Plot Darkrai will most likely beat that.
I don't think there's a way for either Mewtwo or Darkrai to dominate each other. There's a chance that Mewtwo might be able to dominate Darkrai if it uses Rock Tomb, but I'm not sure about that.
Mewtwo @ (Dark Resist Berry)
EVs: 40 HP/252 SpDef/216 Spe
Nature: Timid
~ Taunt
~ Amnesia
~ Recover
~ Aura Sphere
However, in order for Mewtwo to beat Choice Specs Darkrai, it has to use Amnesia on the first and second turn to avoid being 2HKOd by Darkrai's Dark Pulse. However, if Darkrai uses Trick as Mewtwo uses Amnesia, Darkrai will win easily. Here's the 4 scenarios that would occur with this set against Specs Darkrai.
1. Mewtwo uses Amnesia as Darkrai uses Dark Pulse; Mewtwo wins.
2. Mewtwo uses Amnesia as Darkrai uses Trick; Darkrai wins.
3. Mewtwo uses Taunt as Darkrai uses Trick; Mewtwo wins.
4. Mewtwo uses Taunt as Darkrai uses Dark Pulse; Darkrai wins.
For scenario 4, Mewtwo will always be 2HKOd by Modest Choice Specs Darkrai's Dark Pulse, even if it uses Amnesia on the second turn. If it ran Calm to have a chance to survive it, it would lose to Timid Darkrai with Dark Void or Taunt. Protect + Disable beats any Choice Specs Darkrai, but Nasty Plot Darkrai will most likely beat that.
I don't think there's a way for either Mewtwo or Darkrai to dominate each other. There's a chance that Mewtwo might be able to dominate Darkrai if it uses Rock Tomb, but I'm not sure about that.
Edit: Oh wait, Mewtwo can run Mail to prevent Trick from working so there might still be hope.
Edit: Ok I think I've figured out a Mewtwo set that can beat any Darkrai set at least 50% of the time.
Mewtwo @ Mail
EVs: 40 HP/252 SpDef/216 Spe
Nature: Timid
~ Amnesia
~ Recover
~ Aura Sphere
~ Sleep Talk
Against Choice Specs Darkrai, you simply use Amnesia. Specs Dark Pulse from a Modest Darkrai will only do 188 - 224 to a +2 Mewtwo with this spread and will only do 126 - 150 to a +4 Mewtwo with this spread. This comes out to 314 - 374 which, given that Mewtwo has 363 HP, it has very good chance of surviving both Dark Pulses. After that, you can just use Recover, Amnesia, and Aura Sphere to take Darkrai out. You don't even have to worry about Trick because whatever Mail you decide to run will completely block it. Against non Choiced Darkrai, you can simply set up an Amnesia as they try to hit you with Dark Void. Since it only has 80 Accuracy and you have Sleep Talk, you should be able to come out on top in the end. Even if Darkrai runs both Dark Void and Taunt, you will still be able to use Sleep Talk once before it Taunts you and have a 66.7% chance to either be sitting at +4 or do some damage to Darkrai with Aura Sphere. At the moment, I can't think of a Darkrai set that would beat this without using Dark Void/Taunt/Substitute/Nasty Plot/Dark Pulse and Darkrai can't run 5 moves at a time.
Edit: Here's what happens with Wobbuffet vs. Wynaut. In order for Wobbuffet to not die after 4 turns of Struggle recoil, it has to have an HP that's not divisible by 4 (due to rounding). This would leave Wobbuffet with 3 HP after the 4 Struggles and Wynaut can easily hit Wobbuffet 3 HP so the best bet for Wobbuffet is to run is a simple spread of 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Def.
There are three scenarios that need to be looked at with Wobbuffet vs. Wynaut.
1. Both at Lv. 100.
2. Lv. 1 Wobbuffet vs. Lv. 2 Wynaut
3. Lv. 1 Wobbuffet vs. Lv. 100 Wynaut.
Scenarios 2 and 3 really only come into play if Wynaut beats Wobbuffet at Lv. 100 due to being slower. Wobbuffet would then try to lower its level enough to where it's then slower than Wynaut and Wynaut would lower its level to be slower than Wobbuffet. This would lead them to both go all the way down to Lv. 1 and each have 4 Speed (with 0 IVs and a hindering Nature). However, Wynaut can still attain 4 Spe at Lv. 2, while Wobbuffet cannot. Scenario 3 will probably only be necessary to show that neither Pokemon dominates the other. But first thing's first, we have to look at scenario 1.
1. Wynaut will always be slower than Wobbuffet so Wobbuffet has to enough damage with 3 Struggles to do enough damage to Wynaut to make it KO itself after its 3rd Struggle. Wobbuffet also has to have enough bulk to prevent Wynaut from doing the same. With a spread of 252 HP/4 Atk/252 Def, Wynaut reaches 394 HP and will have 100 HP after three Struggles due to rounding. While Charm may end up lowering both of their Atk stats to -6, they both also get Tickle, which will lower their Def stats to -6 as well.
Thus, barring critical hits, they are both essentially at +0/+0 for Struggle. This means that Wobbuffet simply has to run a spread that will allow it to do an average of 34 damage to Wynaut with Struggle and make sure Wynaut fails to hit it 1/12+1 of its health with each Struggle. With a spread of 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Def and a Brave Nature, Wobbuffet will do 31-37 damage with Struggle to max/max Impish Wynaut. This gives it an average damage of 33.5, which comes out to 100.5 damage with 3 Struggles which is just barely enough to KO Wynaut after it has used 3 Struggles. This means that Wynaut will KO itself after its third Struggle and Wobbuffet will win.
Even with only running maximum Def and a neutral Nature, Wobbuffet will still only take 28-33 damage from max Atk Adamant Wynaut's Struggle. This will do a maximum of 99 damage after the three hits it gets, which will still leave Wobbuffet with at least 33 HP left (522 - 130x3 (Struggle damage) - 33x3 (Wynaut's Struggles) = 33). This means that Wobbuffet will even be able to beat a Wynaut that is running 252 HP/252 Atk/252 Def with both Adamant and Impish.
Since Tickle is an event move and might not be counted in this (and the fact that I think this is kind of fun), I'm going to do this same scenario assuming that both of them only have -6 Atk, due to Charm.
With -6 Atk, Wobbuffet can only do a maximum of 10 damage to Wynaut with Struggle, while Wynaut will do a minimum of 4 damage with each Struggle. Since neither one can KO the other after 3 hits of Struggle and 3 recoils, it would have to go into the 4th turn. Wobbuffet would go first and KO itself at the end of the turn due to the recoil. This will still leave Wynaut with 60 HP, assuming Wobbuffet hits max damage every time. Wynaut will still win every time, unless Wobbuffet always lands a critical hit. Even at that, Wynaut still has a chance to survive.
2. Stats for reference:
Wobbuffet (0 HP/12 Atk/212 Def with Relaxed. Wobbuffet can't actually do any better.)
HP: 15
Atk: 6
Def: 7
SpAtk: 5
SpDef: 6
Spe: 4
Wynaut (92 Atk/92 Def with Relaxed. Wynaut needs to run 0 HP and Spe to get down to 15 and 4, respectively.)
HP: 15
Atk: 7
Def: 8
SpAtk: 6
SpDef: 7
Spe: 4
At -6 Atk, both Pokemon will do 1-2 damage against each other with Struggle. After the recoil from 3 Struggles, Both Pokemon will be at 6 HP. This means that one Pokemon will need to hit max damage (or maybe just above average damage) 3 times or land a critical hit in order to KO the other Pokemon. If both Pokemon do minimum damage to each other, they will both be left with 3 HP. This means that whoever attacks first will get KOd by Struggle recoil.
This means that the outcome simply comes down to a speed tie and each Pokemon would only have a 50% chance of beating the other. Wynaut may have an advantage due to not needing as high of a random number to get 2 due to its higher Atk and Def, but even if it hits 2 damage twice and goes first on the 4th turn, the match will end in a draw. It would have to hit 2 the first 3 Struggles or land a critical hit to win without the speed tie, and I don't think that would be over 50%.
3. I don't really have to go through this since Wynaut's Struggle will obviously OHKO Wobbuffet since it's at Lv. 100.
1. Both at Lv. 100.
2. Lv. 1 Wobbuffet vs. Lv. 2 Wynaut
3. Lv. 1 Wobbuffet vs. Lv. 100 Wynaut.
Scenarios 2 and 3 really only come into play if Wynaut beats Wobbuffet at Lv. 100 due to being slower. Wobbuffet would then try to lower its level enough to where it's then slower than Wynaut and Wynaut would lower its level to be slower than Wobbuffet. This would lead them to both go all the way down to Lv. 1 and each have 4 Speed (with 0 IVs and a hindering Nature). However, Wynaut can still attain 4 Spe at Lv. 2, while Wobbuffet cannot. Scenario 3 will probably only be necessary to show that neither Pokemon dominates the other. But first thing's first, we have to look at scenario 1.
1. Wynaut will always be slower than Wobbuffet so Wobbuffet has to enough damage with 3 Struggles to do enough damage to Wynaut to make it KO itself after its 3rd Struggle. Wobbuffet also has to have enough bulk to prevent Wynaut from doing the same. With a spread of 252 HP/4 Atk/252 Def, Wynaut reaches 394 HP and will have 100 HP after three Struggles due to rounding. While Charm may end up lowering both of their Atk stats to -6, they both also get Tickle, which will lower their Def stats to -6 as well.
Thus, barring critical hits, they are both essentially at +0/+0 for Struggle. This means that Wobbuffet simply has to run a spread that will allow it to do an average of 34 damage to Wynaut with Struggle and make sure Wynaut fails to hit it 1/12+1 of its health with each Struggle. With a spread of 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Def and a Brave Nature, Wobbuffet will do 31-37 damage with Struggle to max/max Impish Wynaut. This gives it an average damage of 33.5, which comes out to 100.5 damage with 3 Struggles which is just barely enough to KO Wynaut after it has used 3 Struggles. This means that Wynaut will KO itself after its third Struggle and Wobbuffet will win.
Even with only running maximum Def and a neutral Nature, Wobbuffet will still only take 28-33 damage from max Atk Adamant Wynaut's Struggle. This will do a maximum of 99 damage after the three hits it gets, which will still leave Wobbuffet with at least 33 HP left (522 - 130x3 (Struggle damage) - 33x3 (Wynaut's Struggles) = 33). This means that Wobbuffet will even be able to beat a Wynaut that is running 252 HP/252 Atk/252 Def with both Adamant and Impish.
Since Tickle is an event move and might not be counted in this (and the fact that I think this is kind of fun), I'm going to do this same scenario assuming that both of them only have -6 Atk, due to Charm.
With -6 Atk, Wobbuffet can only do a maximum of 10 damage to Wynaut with Struggle, while Wynaut will do a minimum of 4 damage with each Struggle. Since neither one can KO the other after 3 hits of Struggle and 3 recoils, it would have to go into the 4th turn. Wobbuffet would go first and KO itself at the end of the turn due to the recoil. This will still leave Wynaut with 60 HP, assuming Wobbuffet hits max damage every time. Wynaut will still win every time, unless Wobbuffet always lands a critical hit. Even at that, Wynaut still has a chance to survive.
2. Stats for reference:
Wobbuffet (0 HP/12 Atk/212 Def with Relaxed. Wobbuffet can't actually do any better.)
HP: 15
Atk: 6
Def: 7
SpAtk: 5
SpDef: 6
Spe: 4
Wynaut (92 Atk/92 Def with Relaxed. Wynaut needs to run 0 HP and Spe to get down to 15 and 4, respectively.)
HP: 15
Atk: 7
Def: 8
SpAtk: 6
SpDef: 7
Spe: 4
At -6 Atk, both Pokemon will do 1-2 damage against each other with Struggle. After the recoil from 3 Struggles, Both Pokemon will be at 6 HP. This means that one Pokemon will need to hit max damage (or maybe just above average damage) 3 times or land a critical hit in order to KO the other Pokemon. If both Pokemon do minimum damage to each other, they will both be left with 3 HP. This means that whoever attacks first will get KOd by Struggle recoil.
This means that the outcome simply comes down to a speed tie and each Pokemon would only have a 50% chance of beating the other. Wynaut may have an advantage due to not needing as high of a random number to get 2 due to its higher Atk and Def, but even if it hits 2 damage twice and goes first on the 4th turn, the match will end in a draw. It would have to hit 2 the first 3 Struggles or land a critical hit to win without the speed tie, and I don't think that would be over 50%.
3. I don't really have to go through this since Wynaut's Struggle will obviously OHKO Wobbuffet since it's at Lv. 100.
So to conclude Wobbuffet vs. Wynaut, Wobbuffet will always win against Wynaut if Tickle is allowed while Wynaut will always beat Wobbuffet if it isn't.
Choice Band/Specs Spiritomb can be shut down by Alakazam @ resist berry with Protect / Disable / Recover / attack move.
However, I don't think Alakazam can beat: Brave 252 HP 252 Attack Spiritomb @ Expert Belt - Shadow Sneak / Shadow Ball / (Dark Pulse)
Turn 1 Shadow Sneak + Turn 2 Shadow Ball always KOs unless Alakazam holds Kasib (not even Sitrus or Enigma will do), in which case Turn 3 Shadow Sneak will KO, unless Alakazam used Disable on Turn 1, in which case just use Shadow Ball on Turn 2 and 3, unless Alakazam used Torment on Turn 2 (no point really, but whatever), in which case that's why there's Dark Pulse on Turn 3.
Basically Spiritomb will never have to take more than 2 hits, and it's never 2HKO'd by Alakazam. Or, actually, any Alakazam with enough SpA to 2HKO Spiritomb are 2HKO'd by Shadow sneak and so Spiritomb will never have to take more than one hit from such zam (and the Spiritomb will easily tell if Shadow Sneak 2HKOs after the first turn).
EDIT: @ DDRMaster: Without that Dark resist berry, Modest Darkrai with 252 SpA @ Choice Scarf outspeeds Mewtwo and does minimum 69% with Dark Pulse and so will always 2HKO even if Mewtwo uses Amnesia first turn.
EDIT2: Regarding my Spiritomb set. ... I just found out an Alakazam set that can potentially beat that Spiritomb set, but then it only beats it around 36% of the time. Alakazam Bold 252 HP 252 Def @ Choice Scarf - Trick / Disable / Recover / Fillers. At first I was thinking that Trick WOULDN"t ruin that Spiritomb because Spiritomb will always 2HKO with Shadow Sneak (i.e. Turn 1: Shadow Sneak, Trick. Turn 2: Shadow Sneak KO). However, I forgot to account for the fact that after the first turn trick, Spiritomb does not have the Expert Belt anymore. One Expert Belt Shadow Sneak + One unboosted Shadow Sneak only KOs Alakazam around 55% of the time (and thus not KO 45% of the time), meaning if Alakazam is not KO'd it can use Disable (80% accuracy -> 80% x 45% = 36% chance of winning) on turn 2. And, even after receiving the scarf, Alakazam will still outspeed and can (and must) then recover and not be KO'd by Struggle on third turn. After that it should be easy. So, since 64% chance of winning is still > 50%, dominance still remains, though a weaker one for sure. Oh, and obviously if it wasn't clear already, the reason why Spiritomb HAS to Shadow Sneak on first turn is that... if it was any other move, Alakazam can trick scarf and win with trick + disable. That's the most important reason, and the other reason is that if it was not a (reliable) priority move, Alakazam can then always Reflect (Barrier/Fling Flame Orb) or Light Screen and ... that will less the damage obviously.
However, I don't think Alakazam can beat: Brave 252 HP 252 Attack Spiritomb @ Expert Belt - Shadow Sneak / Shadow Ball / (Dark Pulse)
Turn 1 Shadow Sneak + Turn 2 Shadow Ball always KOs unless Alakazam holds Kasib (not even Sitrus or Enigma will do), in which case Turn 3 Shadow Sneak will KO, unless Alakazam used Disable on Turn 1, in which case just use Shadow Ball on Turn 2 and 3, unless Alakazam used Torment on Turn 2 (no point really, but whatever), in which case that's why there's Dark Pulse on Turn 3.
Basically Spiritomb will never have to take more than 2 hits, and it's never 2HKO'd by Alakazam. Or, actually, any Alakazam with enough SpA to 2HKO Spiritomb are 2HKO'd by Shadow sneak and so Spiritomb will never have to take more than one hit from such zam (and the Spiritomb will easily tell if Shadow Sneak 2HKOs after the first turn).
EDIT: @ DDRMaster: Without that Dark resist berry, Modest Darkrai with 252 SpA @ Choice Scarf outspeeds Mewtwo and does minimum 69% with Dark Pulse and so will always 2HKO even if Mewtwo uses Amnesia first turn.
EDIT2: Regarding my Spiritomb set. ... I just found out an Alakazam set that can potentially beat that Spiritomb set, but then it only beats it around 36% of the time. Alakazam Bold 252 HP 252 Def @ Choice Scarf - Trick / Disable / Recover / Fillers. At first I was thinking that Trick WOULDN"t ruin that Spiritomb because Spiritomb will always 2HKO with Shadow Sneak (i.e. Turn 1: Shadow Sneak, Trick. Turn 2: Shadow Sneak KO). However, I forgot to account for the fact that after the first turn trick, Spiritomb does not have the Expert Belt anymore. One Expert Belt Shadow Sneak + One unboosted Shadow Sneak only KOs Alakazam around 55% of the time (and thus not KO 45% of the time), meaning if Alakazam is not KO'd it can use Disable (80% accuracy -> 80% x 45% = 36% chance of winning) on turn 2. And, even after receiving the scarf, Alakazam will still outspeed and can (and must) then recover and not be KO'd by Struggle on third turn. After that it should be easy. So, since 64% chance of winning is still > 50%, dominance still remains, though a weaker one for sure. Oh, and obviously if it wasn't clear already, the reason why Spiritomb HAS to Shadow Sneak on first turn is that... if it was any other move, Alakazam can trick scarf and win with trick + disable. That's the most important reason, and the other reason is that if it was not a (reliable) priority move, Alakazam can then always Reflect (Barrier/Fling Flame Orb) or Light Screen and ... that will less the damage obviously.
@DDR Master: Like I mentioned, Alakazam can beat Spiritomb with Trick Scarf + Disable if Spiritomb is not using Shadow Sneak first turn (Alakazam outspeeds Spiritomb even after trick, so it can use Disable on Turn 2 before being hit by Shadow Ball on 2nd turn). Alternatively Alakazam can light screen up (or Reflect/Barrier/Fling Flame Orb to prevent Shadow Sneak from KOing 2nd turn)... and... maybe Spiritomb can still win after that, but not as quickly as Shadow Sneak first turn (so I'm not going to bother going that route unless Shadow Sneak first turn doesn't work).
I wanted to attempt an 100% guaranteed win, so; Eevee vs. Caterpie.
Eevee @ Choice Specs
Adaptability
Modest, 252 Sat/252 Spd/4 HP
- Swift
Swift 2HKOs Caterpie even if it runs Careful 252/252 (If caterpie goes offensive it gets immediately OHKOd.) Caterpie cannot 2HKO Eevee with Bug Bite either. Obviously Swift will always hit, so there is no way any Caterpie can beat this set.
Eevee @ Choice Specs
Adaptability
Modest, 252 Sat/252 Spd/4 HP
- Swift
Swift 2HKOs Caterpie even if it runs Careful 252/252 (If caterpie goes offensive it gets immediately OHKOd.) Caterpie cannot 2HKO Eevee with Bug Bite either. Obviously Swift will always hit, so there is no way any Caterpie can beat this set.
Athenodoros
Official Smogon Know-It-All
Yes, you're right. (On a side note, I hereby love Caterpie, just because its stats are so small that 63 from EVs can essentially double them.)
This Caterpie wins 12.1% of the time:
Caterpie @ Choice Scarf
Adamant, 252 Att|64 Sp. Def.|192 Spe
-Bug Bite
In fact, I don't think it can be done by specs: in order not to lose to 2 crits (yeah I know), you need 356 EVs, which means you can not outspeed max speed Caterpie, so it can CB Bug Bite you twice (and you can never guarantee surviving 2 crits), so you need to be able to OHKO. However, you can not get together enough EVs for this to actually happen. The best you can get is a 99.6% chance.
This Caterpie wins 12.1% of the time:
Caterpie @ Choice Scarf
Adamant, 252 Att|64 Sp. Def.|192 Spe
-Bug Bite
In fact, I don't think it can be done by specs: in order not to lose to 2 crits (yeah I know), you need 356 EVs, which means you can not outspeed max speed Caterpie, so it can CB Bug Bite you twice (and you can never guarantee surviving 2 crits), so you need to be able to OHKO. However, you can not get together enough EVs for this to actually happen. The best you can get is a 99.6% chance.
@Chinese dood
Could spiritomb run feint attack for a stronger domination vs zam, or would the lack of priority hurt it more in the long run? Wouldnt tomb prefer to run life orb over expert belt either way? And, although it isn't implemented on shoddy or pokelab, is using mail viable to block tricking?
Could spiritomb run feint attack for a stronger domination vs zam, or would the lack of priority hurt it more in the long run? Wouldnt tomb prefer to run life orb over expert belt either way? And, although it isn't implemented on shoddy or pokelab, is using mail viable to block tricking?
Athenodoros
Official Smogon Know-It-All
No, it needs the priority, because Zam easily outspeeds it. Also, loving the way my post is above yours, even though it was made afterwards. Look up. (And mods, this does not mean this is a double post. Things would just get weird if I didn't make this and replied above.)
Yeah i thought about it more and i think it needs the priority, though i i think lo>expert belt would secure a stronger domination, and if mail is viable then it could block trick, though idk about the loss of power.
What if zam uses disable on the first shadow sneak, then tricks it the the scarf before tombs next move? would it be locked into shadow sneak or not? (i cant remember the choice items mechanics atm)
If Alakazam uses Disable on first turn, it will not be able to trick the scarf since that means it was holding a choice scarf and would be locked into Disable.
It can, however, use Encore. ... I'm not sure how that works... Maybe that still forces Spiritomb to struggle?
I mean like:
Turn 1: Shadow Sneak, Disable. Shadow Sneak is disabled.
Turn 2: Zam usess Encore. ... Would Spiritomb have to struggle then or would encore not work? Or would Spiritomb struggle on Turn 2 and then encore ends right away, because from what I know Encore ends when a move runs out of pp. So yeah, not sure about that one.
... And Yeah, Faint Attack (and anything that's not Shadow Sneak first turn) means Alakazam can win with bulky EVs + Trick Scarf + Disable (+Recover).
It can, however, use Encore. ... I'm not sure how that works... Maybe that still forces Spiritomb to struggle?
I mean like:
Turn 1: Shadow Sneak, Disable. Shadow Sneak is disabled.
Turn 2: Zam usess Encore. ... Would Spiritomb have to struggle then or would encore not work? Or would Spiritomb struggle on Turn 2 and then encore ends right away, because from what I know Encore ends when a move runs out of pp. So yeah, not sure about that one.
... And Yeah, Faint Attack (and anything that's not Shadow Sneak first turn) means Alakazam can win with bulky EVs + Trick Scarf + Disable (+Recover).
I think Spiritomb would end up being forced to Struggle at least once if you went with Disable+Encore. However, Spiritomb could use Sucker Punch on the second turn (which would fail) and that would get Encored instead. After that, I'm not sure if Alakazam could kill it with Toxic fast enough and its only ways to lessen the damage from Sucker Punch are Reflect and Double Team/Flash (to make it miss).
Actually, now that I think about it, couldn't Spiritomb simply run Sucker Punch and only bring it into battle with 1 PP? I think this would allow it to use Sucker Punch as Alakazam Encores and force Encore to fail, since Sucker Punch no longer has any PP. After that, Spiritomb could just launch a Shadow Ball/Faint Attack to hit Alakazam.
Yeah, it seems like it will be forced to struggle I think.http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/encore said:
Not totally sure if 1PP Sucker Punch is allowed, but if not... maybe Protect will work? Protect will first block the Encore on Turn 2.
Then Turn 3 try to use Faint Attack (Yeah, I realized... Faint Attack over Dark Pulse as the 3rd move is better, because of potential Calm Mind). If Alakazam used Encore, then that's ok. Spiritomb is forced into using Protect. After 3 turns of Protect (I believe Encore is set to 3 turns now?), Spiritomb will have at most taken one hit (but Alakazam is probably better off using Calm Mind), Spiritomb should use Faint Attack, followed by Shadow Sneak. Faint Attack first, since that will move after Alakazam -> Alakazam cannot Disable it until the next turn, but next turn Spiritomb will KO with Shadow sneak. Alakazam cannot KO if it only used Calm Mind twice, and if it used more than twice, that means it never recovered health so Spiritomb will be able to KO next hit.
Sorry, too lazy to do calculations right now, but this is what I was saying in my previous paragraph:
Turn 1: Shadow Sneak, Disable.
Turn 2: Protect, Encore fail.
Turn 3: Encore (Spiritomb locked into Protect for next 3 turns), Protect Fail.
Turn 4: Recover?, Protect.
Turn 5: Calm Mind, Protect. Disable ends? (Or is it a turn before/after this?)
Turn 6: Calm Mind, Protect.
Turn 7: Alakazam Attack, Faint Attack.
Turn 8: Shadow Sneak KO.
If in Turn 4/5/6 zam used Substitute instead, then:
Turn 7: Alakazam does something, Faint Attack to break Sub.
Turn 8: Alakazam used Disable. Spiritomb used Shadow Ball (will KO unless zam used Calm Minds)
Turn 9: Shadow Sneak to KO if needed.
I'm thinking I probably missed something since that's quite a few turns of stuff to analyze through and I didn't really do any calcs, lol, sorry. Maybe somebody else can work it out if he/she wants to. :)
EDIT: O yeah Shadow ball over Dark Pulse is better because Alakazam might be holding dark resist berry, but if it was using Ghost-resist, it will have been used up after the first turn shadow sneak, meaning... Shadow sneak + Shadow ball will always do equal or more damage than Shadow sneak + Dark pulse.
Athenodoros
Official Smogon Know-It-All
Turn 5: Calm Mind, Protect
Turn 6: Sub, Protect
Turn 7: Signal Beam, Faint Attack
Turn 8: Shadow Sneak, Signal Beam KOs
Assuming max Sp. Att. and Life Orb, and max Def.
Turn 6: Sub, Protect
Turn 7: Signal Beam, Faint Attack
Turn 8: Shadow Sneak, Signal Beam KOs
Assuming max Sp. Att. and Life Orb, and max Def.
What would Turn 4 be then? It won't be recover, because it's already Disable / Encore / Calm Mind / Signal Beam.
Assuming that it's not recover, Alakazam is at <50% health after turn 1, which means the Shadow sneak on turn 8 definitely KOs. Even if for whatever reason Alakazam had 5 moves (and used Recover on Turn 4)... I'm going to assume Bold Alakazam with 4HP 252 Def 252 SpA (Modest will die even faster of course).
After Turn 1, Alakazam has around 37.3% health at most (Expert Belt Shadow Sneak does minimum 62.7% to 4 HP 252 Def Bold zam)
After Turn 4, Alakazam has around 87.3% health at most.
After Turn 6, Alakazam has 87.3% - 25% = 62.3% with a sub.
After Turn 7, Alakazam has 52.3% with no sub (Signal Beam + Faint Attack).
So, Turn 8 Shadow Sneak will have 100% chance to KO with Shadow Sneak.
But yeah, that scenario's not even possible since Alakazam only has 4 moveslots.
Assuming that it's not recover, Alakazam is at <50% health after turn 1, which means the Shadow sneak on turn 8 definitely KOs. Even if for whatever reason Alakazam had 5 moves (and used Recover on Turn 4)... I'm going to assume Bold Alakazam with 4HP 252 Def 252 SpA (Modest will die even faster of course).
After Turn 1, Alakazam has around 37.3% health at most (Expert Belt Shadow Sneak does minimum 62.7% to 4 HP 252 Def Bold zam)
After Turn 4, Alakazam has around 87.3% health at most.
After Turn 6, Alakazam has 87.3% - 25% = 62.3% with a sub.
After Turn 7, Alakazam has 52.3% with no sub (Signal Beam + Faint Attack).
So, Turn 8 Shadow Sneak will have 100% chance to KO with Shadow Sneak.
But yeah, that scenario's not even possible since Alakazam only has 4 moveslots.
Athenodoros
Official Smogon Know-It-All
I knew I'd run into something like that. It just seemed too elaborate. Maybe Tomb does dominate? Why was it that we moved away from an all-out attacker set again though? I can't think of anything obvious.
All out attacker set for Spiritomb? Isn't it an all-out attacker set right now aside from Protect (or 1PP Sucker Punch)?
Recap:
- Spiritomb cannot be choiced because Alakazam can just Disable + Recover (even having to disable twice is 64%)
- Spiritomb needs to use Shadow Sneak first turn because otherwise zam can just Trick-Scarf Disable Recover
- An Alakazam that can potentially 2HKO Spiritomb will be 2HKO'd by Spiritomb's Shadow Sneak (any Alakazam without Kasib/Leftovers/Sitrus/Enigma will be 2HKO'd by Shadow Sneak)
So with that came Brave Spiritomb 252 HP 252 Attack (4 Sp Def I suppose, though not really needed) @ Expert Belt with Shadow Sneak / Shadow Ball / Faint Attack / Protect
Yeah, MAYBE Life Orb might even be better? I don't know. It will increase the chance of beating Trick Scarf Bold 252/252 Alakazam (probably to 100%), but not sure if that might affect other zam sets' effectiveness. Maybe it won't at all, but if Expert Belt works, I don't think I'm going to try to see if Life Orb works better.
O yeah, I think I realize what I missed. Lol, it's obvious actually. Turn 3 Spiritomb Protect was totally arbitrary, based on Alakazam's moveset, which is not characteristic of dominance. I.e. What if Alakazam actually used Calm Mind on Turn 3 instead of Encore? There's no way for Spiritomb to determine whether to use Faint Attack or Protect (or even Sucker Punch which would fail on Calm Mind) on Turn 3. So yeah, actually no dominance yet I think... ... I still think there might be a way, but yah, not there yet unfortunately.
Recap:
- Spiritomb cannot be choiced because Alakazam can just Disable + Recover (even having to disable twice is 64%)
- Spiritomb needs to use Shadow Sneak first turn because otherwise zam can just Trick-Scarf Disable Recover
- An Alakazam that can potentially 2HKO Spiritomb will be 2HKO'd by Spiritomb's Shadow Sneak (any Alakazam without Kasib/Leftovers/Sitrus/Enigma will be 2HKO'd by Shadow Sneak)
So with that came Brave Spiritomb 252 HP 252 Attack (4 Sp Def I suppose, though not really needed) @ Expert Belt with Shadow Sneak / Shadow Ball / Faint Attack / Protect
Yeah, MAYBE Life Orb might even be better? I don't know. It will increase the chance of beating Trick Scarf Bold 252/252 Alakazam (probably to 100%), but not sure if that might affect other zam sets' effectiveness. Maybe it won't at all, but if Expert Belt works, I don't think I'm going to try to see if Life Orb works better.
O yeah, I think I realize what I missed. Lol, it's obvious actually. Turn 3 Spiritomb Protect was totally arbitrary, based on Alakazam's moveset, which is not characteristic of dominance. I.e. What if Alakazam actually used Calm Mind on Turn 3 instead of Encore? There's no way for Spiritomb to determine whether to use Faint Attack or Protect (or even Sucker Punch which would fail on Calm Mind) on Turn 3. So yeah, actually no dominance yet I think... ... I still think there might be a way, but yah, not there yet unfortunately.
Athenodoros
Official Smogon Know-It-All
Right, so it has to use Shadow Sneak first turn, and I still think all-out attack is the go, so give it, for the sake of argument, Life Orb and max attack. Given Shadow Sneak 2HKOs all Alakazam like this, Alakazam has to do something tricky with the one turn it will have:
Looking at it, it can't use Will-O-Wisp, so it could status with Thunder Wave (1/16 chance of success for Zam)
It could Recover, but it takes more than 50%
It could use Trick. It does not work if it tricks Flame Orb, like I thought, because it still has to take three turns of damage. Or, it can trick a choice item: Specs or Scarf. Both mean a loss because Tomb can just Shadow Ball: a guaranteed KO, and Zam can not do anything (CM does not stop a KO)
It could use reflect, but then Tomb can just use Shadow Ball next turn and a +1 SpDef Zam is still KO'd.
It could Torment. Does not help, because it moves after Tomb.
It could Thief. Not helpful.
It could Sub, which does not help.
This would suggest that a simple set:
Spiritomb @ Life Orb
Brave, 252 Att.|252 Hp.
-Shadow Sneak
-Shadow Ball
dominates Zam. Is there anything else?
Looking at it, it can't use Will-O-Wisp, so it could status with Thunder Wave (1/16 chance of success for Zam)
It could Recover, but it takes more than 50%
It could use Trick. It does not work if it tricks Flame Orb, like I thought, because it still has to take three turns of damage. Or, it can trick a choice item: Specs or Scarf. Both mean a loss because Tomb can just Shadow Ball: a guaranteed KO, and Zam can not do anything (CM does not stop a KO)
It could use reflect, but then Tomb can just use Shadow Ball next turn and a +1 SpDef Zam is still KO'd.
It could Torment. Does not help, because it moves after Tomb.
It could Thief. Not helpful.
It could Sub, which does not help.
This would suggest that a simple set:
Spiritomb @ Life Orb
Brave, 252 Att.|252 Hp.
-Shadow Sneak
-Shadow Ball
dominates Zam. Is there anything else?
... Um, did you forget something? Haha.
Did you forget why the set I had didn't dominate? It was because of Disable turn 1 + Encore Turn 2. Turn 2 - 5 Spiritomb will be using Struggle. Alakazam with Bold 252 HP 252 Def it'll be fine as long as it has Recover.
Did you forget why the set I had didn't dominate? It was because of Disable turn 1 + Encore Turn 2. Turn 2 - 5 Spiritomb will be using Struggle. Alakazam with Bold 252 HP 252 Def it'll be fine as long as it has Recover.
Athenodoros
Official Smogon Know-It-All
I meant the whole time to leave disable till last, and then forgot. Okay, then:
Turn One: Shadow Sneak, Disable
Turn Two: Shadow Ball => KO, even with Light Screen/Calm Mind.
Turn One: Shadow Sneak, Disable
Turn Two: Shadow Ball => KO, even with Light Screen/Calm Mind.
No, it won't work that way, because Shadow Ball does not have priority. It would be like this:
Turn 1: Shadow Sneak, Disable.
Turn 2: Encore, Spiritomb cannot use Shadow Sneak, Spiritomb used Struggle.
Bold Alakazam with 252 HP 252 Def can survive a life Orb Shadow Sneak followed by Struggle. That was the scenario I was trying to solve a few posts back (with that Protect stuff, but the thing with Protect is that it's arbitrary, since Alakazam could have used something else instead of Encore and win).
Turn 1: Shadow Sneak, Disable.
Turn 2: Encore, Spiritomb cannot use Shadow Sneak, Spiritomb used Struggle.
Bold Alakazam with 252 HP 252 Def can survive a life Orb Shadow Sneak followed by Struggle. That was the scenario I was trying to solve a few posts back (with that Protect stuff, but the thing with Protect is that it's arbitrary, since Alakazam could have used something else instead of Encore and win).
Athenodoros
Official Smogon Know-It-All
I didn't realise that that was how Encore worked. This thread really stretches knowledge of never used game mechanics. I also realised that I forgot resist berries mess things up as well, because then Zam can survive two shadow Sneaks. I think actually that we will not get complete domination here, just because of the disgusting number of support moves Zam has.