Serious Political and economic discussion thread

OLD GREGG (im back baby)

old gregg for life
is your argument really "why outlaw it bc people are going to break the law anyway"? why is murder illegal because its not like murderers are law abiding citizens? By that logic why regulate anything? This is not a good argument.

It's not about "sweeping it under the rug." How does legislating hate speech in a public-backed way constitute covering it up? The justice and legislation systems are supposed to be direct extensions of society's will and ideals, and if society acknowledges that yeah, hate speech is bad, and outlaws it, how exactly is that not helping? As long as the hate speech is given a platform it won't go away, its when those ideas are broadcasted to people that it indoctrinates them. Would you argue that Germany is in the wrong for "sweeping under the rug" any nazi propaganda? For example, iirc it is illegal to identify as a nazi in Germany or to spew any speech related to that era. What benefit does having this speech even have that it needs to be brought up in a discussion? Giving ideas platforms and the ability to be thrown to people implies that those ideas can provide some net benefit to society, otherwise unseen. That is why people argue for Free Speech, because it is absurd to suggest that people know everything and thus do not need new, sometimes not commonly accepted, ideas. That whole premise's foundation is that those ideas have some unknown positive benefit to society. I for one can see literally zero benefit in allowing people to spew hate speech. Could you please provide your thoughts to what benefit you see in allowing hate speech to exist, beyond a simple "its speech" argument.
For simple clarification my point isn't that people are going to break the law, anyway. My point is that those who have deluded themselves into some distorted reality where having a specific pigmentation is a real advantage have done so for a reason, whatever that reason might be. What help to them is it to quiet them? Or punish them? Seems unnecessarily authoritarian when we are just talking about thoughts and ideas. Sure isn't getting to the roots of any issue! It is only allowing hate speech when it is being condoned and at what point does the vitriol turn back upon yourself?


I am not trying to condone hate speech so if that is what you got from my post, you misunderstood. At what point does the hater become the hated and vice versa?
 
deceit your entire argument hinges on the fact that you believe that hate speech can just simply be ignored, the old adage of "sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never hurt me" but that idea is just not true. There have been many studies that have shown that language has a direct impact on different neurotransmitters released in the brain, and even more research on hate speech and its impacts on society. Most importantly, hate speech is a predictor of violence. I would recommend checking out this study or this paper if you wish to actually get a full on lengthy answer on why hate speech is not an OK phenomenon and moreover why it is just dangerous as pre-conceived notions of harm. The short answer is that hate speech, or negative speech in general but mostly hate speech for its exaggerated effect, force neurotransmitters to be released in the brain, often from the amygdala, and that this ends up clouding rational thought from the frontal lobe. Why is this important? The stress induced from this "fear intoxicated" state is a direct link to increasing depression, clinical anxiety, self-harm, and even suicide. It's very easy to say "oh just don't listen to it" but your brain still gets that information relayed. It still hears someone calling you the n word, and from then on that hate speech giving person is a threat. The first step to genocide is to dehumanize the populace you are attempting to eradicate, so people are "ok" with the very contrarian idea of murder. Hate speech not only emboldens people to speak the negative thoughts its also a signal to let those in the "other" group know that they are not safe. This is why hate speech is being pushed to be banned, not because of "liberal feels" but because it legitimately has a negative impact on the human frame of mind, and is extremely dangerous to the mental state of others.

When people say "Free Speech" they are encompassing the abstract idea of society as a whole to have the ability to express themselves how they wished. It is a societal not individual trait. You do not have the individual ability to shout "Fire" in a movie theater, society has deemed that not OK because you incite panic. How then, can you argue that "hate speech" itself, knowing that it incites panic in the "other" that the speech is directed towards, is perfectly fine and should be voiced? Society does not have to let every single idea surface and be given a platform, in fact quite the opposite. It is in society's best interest to quell certain concepts from the sphere of thought, because the masses are easily moved and language is easily abused. I would assume you are for the advancement of society for the welfare of people, and so cannot see how you could see any societal net gain from allowing racists, bigots, and other like-minded individuals to be given platforms to voice their ideas that are inherently dangerous to their fellow humans. Unless, you don't believe that depression, anxiety, stress, and suicide are real issues? As you said, "the world is tough," but why should it be made any tougher than it already is? Why are you so pro-hate speech?
Now we're getting somewhere at least.

I want to clarify this, I am not for hate speech, I'm for free speech as a whole and the ability to speak your mind as you please. In that, hate speech is free speech, that does not mean I condone, on a personal note, someone saying one or any other examples I've previously given. You can still be a pretty garbage human being in doing so, so it doesn't change much just because it may be legal. In the US that is the law as it stands, and that was a truth the founder fathers found to be self-evident, aka, the US was practically built on that amendment in the Bill of Rights. Now, a couple things I think you're not getting. I already agreed shouting fire in a crowded theater is something justifiable, and anything that insights violence. It is societal, and it is law. If you have issues with depression, clinical anxiety, self-harm, and suicide, that's why therapy is a thing. Not that it's fun, but it would pretty damn well help. I want to make this clear as well, I don't like hateful words either, nobody does, but where the hell would we go if we took everything said to us personally.

On that note, I do want to ask you this though. With all of these increased rates of clinically diagnosed mental issues having to do with emotion (exempting bipolar disorder, since that's more solely biological), why wasn't that the case in the 1950s, or even before that (and do not say because they weren't widely researched yet, because there is plenty of evidence that compensates for that)? The world was just as tough, if not even tougher I'd argue. Now don't get me wrong here, I'm with OLD GREGG (im back baby) that their voices should not be invalidated, and they should have upmost treatment, care, and love, as with anyone that's sick. However, parents actually taught their kids the realities of the world, and that the world was not going to give their kids everything on a silver plater (contrary to how many parents have shifted today). That's why we have winners and we have losers in games, if everyone wins, what would we learn? It's small and minute examples like that that go a long way in personal development and your perception of the world. It is impossible to create a utopia, I hate to break it to you, as great as that would be. That's why kids (and people in general) need to be taught with love, and with thick skin, sometimes as tough love in general.

So, to put my point plainly and simply, to reuse your own words, yes, "sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never hurt me," still holds up even today. The world hasn't changed to that degree. It's called maturing, and letting things go in one ear and out the other. Majority of the time (exceptions obviously), it's not all that hard.

On a sidenote, you've thus far taken a lot of my arguments out of context and construing them into something they're not [basically saying, "so you're saying that...(insert extreme and badly implied narrative here)]. If you don't fully get something I'm saying, just ask. I would kindly appreciate you quit doing that, because you're not getting anywhere. Additionally, perhaps watch the lecture I actually posted instead of blindly saying Dinesh D'Souza is a racist, it's embarrassing mate.
 
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Nothing, just collecting some screenshots for the next time someone accuses liberals here of circle jerking
Go straight ahead. Y'all have done nothing but that (even though no one has addressed that until just now). Be extra sure to screenshot myself and texas's recent posts, and even tcr's, that'll really prove your point. Also, I for one am pretty moderate, it just so happens I'm a far ways away from the far left.
 
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vonFiedler

I Like Chopin
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If the racists are calling themselves moderates now, do I get to be conservative again? Or do we just keep pushing the goal post?
 

vonFiedler

I Like Chopin
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Did you look in the mirror? Tell me where I, or any person you consider conservative here has been racist.
Almost all of the conservatives here have at some point called all blacks criminals. In this thread and others. Oh, I'm sorry, I played the race card I guess.

I swear the internet wasn't always like this
 

OLD GREGG (im back baby)

old gregg for life
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Go straight ahead. Y'all have done nothing but that (even though no one has addressed that until just now). Be extra sure to screenshot myself and texas's recent posts, and even tcr's, that'll really prove your point. Also, I dont believe old gregg has been all that conservative, and I for one am pretty moderate, it just so happens I'm a far ways away from the far left.
This is a personal conflict and not at all productive to the conversation at hand. I wouldn't mind had you two knuckleheads left me out of your argument...tagging mods to get this snip outta here vonFiedler
 
No, we have not LOL. You're twisting our arguments completely. Go ahead and quote where I, or anyone has said that all blacks are criminals.

This is a personal conflict and not at all productive to the conversation at hand. I wouldn't mind had you two knuckleheads left me out of your argument...tagging mods to get this snip outta here vonFiedler
Apologies mate, ill edit that out.
 

Shrug

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deceit has come from no where to become the kobe of conservativeposting on this sub forum. not quite lebron levels of talent / efficiency (deck knight) but he's putting up shots (posts) at a rapid pace and can probably win a couple of finals mvps (most replies from well meaning libs and leftishes) but maybe cannot be the best player on a championship team. if you think kobe was ever the best player on a championship team, foh.
 

vonFiedler

I Like Chopin
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Quoting all old infractions here to you would be as productive as teaching the blind to read. Can't you look around and see that everybody hates your level of sophistry? Nobody is impressed by the "kumbayah I just want to respect others debate" that you tack onto every post. You can't just talk about respect, you have to actually display it. Of course, I know I'm giving you some satisfaction by saying all this, but the fact is nobody here is being tricked by you.
 

THE_IRON_...KENYAN?

Banned deucer.
deceit has come from no where to become the kobe of conservativeposting on this sub forum. not quite lebron levels of talent / efficiency (deck knight) but he's putting up shots (posts) at a rapid pace and can probably win a couple of finals mvps (most replies from well meaning libs and leftishes) but maybe cannot be the best player on a championship team. if you think kobe was ever the best player on a championship team, foh.
so u think pau gasol was better than kobe during the second championship run
 

tcr

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On that note, I do want to ask you this though. With all of these increased rates of clinically diagnosed mental issues having to do with emotion (exempting bipolar disorder, since that's more biological), why weren't wasn't that the case in the 1950s, or even before that (and do not say because they weren't widely researched yet, because there is plenty of evidence that compensates for that)? The world was just as tough, if not even tougher I'd argue. Parents actually taught their kids the realities of the world, and that the world was not going to give their kids everything on a silver plater (contrary to how many parents have shifted today). That's why we have winners and we have losers in games, if everyone wins, what would we learn? It's small and minute examples like that that go a long way in personal development and your perception of the world. It is impossible to create a utopia, I hate to break it to you, as great as that would be. That's why kids (and people in general) need to be taught with love, and with thick skin, sometimes as tough love in general.
You do realize that the field of clinical psychology is one of the most recent fields in modern history right? Concepts that the field of psychology takes for granted today weren't even developed until the 1950s, for example BF Skinner forming the foundations of behavioral therapy did not develop until 1953, Maslow's hierarchy of needs was not developed until 1954, hell the first DSM wasn't even published until 1952 and in that edition they listed homosexuality as a precursor to psychopathic tendencies. The DSM wasn't updated afterward until 1968. So to your rather obtuse question "why didn't people clinically diagnose mental illnesses in the 1950s" its because psychology as a field of study is new compared to fields like biology, and most fields were not actually founded or credited until well after the timeline you issued. Please at least have a cursory knowledge of psychology before you form such mindless questions. A simple google search would show that psych as a field didn't gain acceptance until at least the 1940s, and to assume that our understanding of mental illnesses and brain chemistry has not advanced into the modern day is laughable.

So, to put my point plainly and simply, to reuse your own words, yes, "sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never hurt me," still holds up even today. The world hasn't changed to that degree.
this is not true and it is obvious you didnt even bother to read the sources i linked

On a sidenote, you've thus far taken a lot of my arguments out of context and construing them into something they're not [basically saying, "so you're saying that...(insert extreme and badly implied narrative here)]. If you don't fully get something I'm saying, just ask. I would kindly appreciate you quit doing that, because you're not getting anywhere. Additionally, perhaps watch the lecture I actually posted instead of blindly saying Dinesh D'Souza is a racist, it's embarrassing mate.
would very much appreciate you stop playing the debate "come on guys be respectful" meanwhile you argue for positions that you have an introductory experience into at best and continually argue in bad faith. It is fairly obvious that at this point you are simply baiting people by showing incredibly obtuse arguments simply to stir something up. as evidenced by your posts above me.
 

Shrug

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pau lead the lakers in win shares during the 2010 playoffs and is one of history's most artful passing centers. imma take him over a chuckerapist any day
 

TheValkyries

proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE
Seeing these Kobe hot takes is so infinitely more refreshing than people spouting demonstrably untrue or immensely misleading conservative talking points and citing dinesh d’fuckingsousa
 
BTW i'm think about trump's wall this whole time. How did it stir up so much controversy? Ok it is costly but why do liberals freak out from controlling borders?

I have locks on my doors, you have locks on your doors, I have the right to my sovereign property, a nation has a right to it's sovereign reign, whoever comes in my house needs to follow my rules, whoever immigrates to a new nation must comply to their laws and regulations. I have guests that I invite, a nation has tourists but they come in legally and visit with full permission from the state. As you see your own house and a nation principle wise isn't so different right? Just the scale of a nation is much larger hence obviously the cost to implement security for an entire nation will be significantly greater than your own house.

So why the controversy just on trump's wall? It's ILLEGALS that he wants to keep away. He clearly said he can and will continue to allow immigrants as long as they come in LEGALLY.
 

Pyritie

TAMAGO
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BTW i'm think about trump's wall this whole time. How did it stir up so much controversy? Ok it is costly but why do liberals freak out from controlling borders?

I have locks on my doors, you have locks on your doors, I have the right to my sovereign property, a nation has a right to it's sovereign reign, whoever comes in my house needs to follow my rules, whoever immigrates to a new nation must comply to their laws and regulations. I have guests that I invite, a nation has tourists but they come in legally and visit with full permission from the state. As you see your own house and a nation principle wise isn't so different right? Just the scale of a nation is much larger hence obviously the cost to implement security for an entire nation will be significantly greater than your own house.

So why the controversy just on trump's wall? It's ILLEGALS that he wants to keep away. He clearly said he can and will continue to allow immigrants as long as they come in LEGALLY.
because it's a stupid, impractical, and expensive idea that was only ever conjured up to get the far right excited
 

Texas Cloverleaf

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Ashaebi not a single person has a problem with the concept of controlling borders

Problem is a wall is a retarded way to do it. Impossible to defend properly and exorbitantly costly to attempt. And further does nothing to solve the main problem in the drug running tunnels that already go under any walls

When the wall has no practical implications the massive, exorbitant cost becomes a major sticking point. It was only ever used as a talking point to engage the Republican voting base.
 

tcr

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setting aside the absolute ridiculousness of building a wall in 2018

how exactly do you explain the treatment of asylum seekers, you know a legal route for immigrants into this country? tough luck be born white?
 

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