[QC 3/3] Gourgeist-H

[Pros]

<ul>
<li>Great Grass/Ghost typing gives her several useful resistances.</li>
<li>Access to Will-o-Wisp and Leech Seed to harass and Pain Split for recovery.</li>
<li>Solid 85/122/75 bulk allows her to take on rapid spinners and many other threatening offensive Pokemon.</li>
<li>Frisk allows her to scout enemy items just by switching in</li>
<li>STAB priority in Shadow Sneak backed by a modest 100 base attack is just enough to dent things.</li>
</ul>

[Cons]

<ul>
<li>Very slow in her largest form and thus can only outrun slower defensive Pokemon.</li>
<li>Typing leaves her vulnerable to Fire, Ice, Ghost and Dark, all common attacking types, and a Pursuit weakness allows several dangerous Pokemon to trap her, though they must watch out for Will-o-Wisp.</li>
<li>Middling special defence leaves her unable to make the most of her handy water resistance.</li>
<li>Faces competition from Trevenant as a Grass/Ghost.</li>
</ul>

[Set Recommendations]

<p>Gourgeist-H @ Leftovers<br />
Ability: Frisk<br />
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def<br />
Impish Nature<br />
- Will-o-Wisp<br />
- Leech Seed<br />
- Protect / Pain Split<br />
- Shadow Sneak / Seed Bomb</p>

<p>Gourgeist's decent base 85 HP and exceptional base 122 Defense cry out for a defensive set, and she has the support moves to back up those stats. The given EV spread provides Gourgeist with maximum Physical bulk while bolstering Attack slightly with the remaining EVs. This actually makes Gourgeist bulkier than Physcially Defensivve Skarmory on both sides of the spectrum, to give an idea of how tough she is to take down. Pain Split is Gourgeist's best method of recovery, and though it is not ideal paired with a reasonable base HP it adds to the passive damage Gourgeist can inflict on her foes and keeps her healthy enough to tank hits from burned physical attackers. That said, Protect is also useful for recovery, granting an extra turn or Leech Seed recovery and inflicting even more passive damage on the opponent.</p>

<p>Although investing in her defences does prevent Gourgeist from doing large amounts of damage, 100 base Attack is still very respectable for a defensive Pokemon and that is reflected in her ability to deal heavy damage to anything weak to her STABs, 2HKOing Rotom-W with Seed Bomb, her most reliable and damaging STAB. However, Shadow Sneak is also very potent as its priority allows Gourgeist to pick off weakened Pokemon - just be aware that she is much less effective against Grass-weak Pokemon, such as Tyranitar, without Seed Bomb. As the priority of Shadow Sneak synergises so well with the passive damage Gourgeist constantly inflicts, it is the preferred option, but both are viable. Due to the limited coverage of whatever attack is chosen, the majority of Gourgeist's damage will be passive, and that's where the first two moveslots come in. Will-o-Wisp is extremely useful for any bulky Ghost-type Pokemon, and Gourgeist is no exception, taking 45% maximum from a Burned Tyranitar's Choice Band Pursuit if she attempts to switch out. Additionally, Gourgeist's handy Grass typing allows her to take on most Earthquake users with ease, resisting the move and sponging coverage attacks easily with her mammoth defense. For example, +2 Garchomp has only a 1% chance to 2HKO with Dragon Claw if Gourgeist has not suffered prior damage, which means in an emergency situation Gourgeist can switch into and Burn Garchomp to prevent a sweep. Due to her resistance to Ground-type moves, she pairs well with Pokemon who do not enjoy taking Earthquakes - particularly those that can absorb special attacks directed at her such as Tentacruel and Tyranitar. Gourgeist also appreciates partners with Wish, as its own recovery is fairly unreliable. Sylveon and Florges are both good options and can easily endure the dark-type attacks directed at Gourgeist while passing Wishes to keep her healthy or ridding her of status with Heal Bell and Aromatherapy, respectively.</p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>Faster Substitute users are a major thorn in the side of any Gourgeist, blocking both Will-o-Wisp and Leech Seed while leaving it to chip away with Seed Bomb. Gliscor is a great option, as Poison Heal protects it from burns and it has the defense to sponge almost anything Gourgeist can throw at it while using Substitute to block Leech Seed from the defensive variant. Generally, offensive Fire, Ice or Dark-type Pokemon are the best answers to Gourgeist, especially if they can hit it on its weaker special side. Gengar resists Seed Bomb, and can use Substitute to block passive damage - however, it will take heavy damage from Shadow Sneak. Alakazam can use Magic Guard to shield itself from passive damage and hit Gourgeist's weaker Special Defense, but it too is mauled by Shadow Sneak. Talonflame is a great option, able to switch into Will-o-Wisp with impunity thanks to its Fire typing and crush Gourgeist with a STAB, super-effective Brave Bird, even hitting before her Shadow Sneak thanks to Gale Wings. </p>
 
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I'm not QC, but I think Trick deserves at least a mention on the Choice Band set, if not a slash next to Phantom Force or as a second slash in the 4th slot since Gourgeist learns it naturally IIRC. While I can't think of any physical walls that would be crippled via Tricking a Choice Band(Skarmory doesn't really care IMO), I think it can be just as effective at dealing with Aegislash as Phantom Force is. As a second slash in the 4th moveslot, it's another way for teams to preserve Gourgeist as a spinblocker or check/counter other than Rock Slide.

I'm not sold on Insomnia. Unless, of course, Hypnosis on something like Defog Crobat gets really popular.
 
Why insomnia?

The only sleep inducing moves I can think of that are used regularly are Spore and Sleep Powder. Neither of which affect grass types anymore - running sets with frisk is much better IMO as it allows for 'frisking' of items to see what each 'mon is playing you for
 
Why insomnia?

The only sleep inducing moves I can think of that are used regularly are Spore and Sleep Powder. Neither of which affect grass types anymore - running sets with frisk is much better IMO as it allows for 'frisking' of items to see what each 'mon is playing you for
Supporting this, especially considering the megas this gen, so less mindgames
 
For example, +2 Garchomp has only a 1% to 2HKO with Dragon Claw if Gourgeist


1%? Or ten percent? 1% seems awfully low for a pokemon such as Garchomp. I'm also confused as to why you've used a dragon clawing Garchomp in an example you were using to back up your argument about Gourgeist being good against earthquake users. You need to explain why it's you've used dragon claw as an example - unless that's the teacher in me of course.


[edit]


Is bullet seed a viable option to be discussed? Is there any way that Gourgeist can pull of a 5-hit turn 100% of the time like skill-link Cloyster? If Gourgeist has access to Seedbomb, I would be tempted to use Seedbomb throughout; especially as the difference in damage is about 5.
 

Colonel M

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Don't even bother with Bullet Seed. You would have to have at least 4 hits to hit harder than Seed Bomb and 3 to come close.
 
For example, +2 Garchomp has only a 1% to 2HKO with Dragon Claw if Gourgeist
1%? Or ten percent? 1% seems awfully low for a pokemon such as Garchomp. I'm also confused as to why you've used a dragon clawing Garchomp in an example you were using to back up your argument about Gourgeist being good against earthquake users. You need to explain why it's you've used dragon claw as an example - unless that's the teacher in me of course.
[edit]
Is bullet seed a viable option to be discussed? Is there any way that Gourgeist can pull of a 5-hit turn 100% of the time like skill-link Cloyster? If Gourgeist has access to Seedbomb, I would be tempted to use Seedbomb throughout; especially as the difference in damage is about 5.
Garchomp is a common user of Earthquake, and assuming it is either only running two attacks or using Iron Head to beat Togekiss, Dragon Claw is its strongest move against Gourgeist.
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 232 HP / 224+ Def (custom): 168-198 (45.52 - 53.65%) -- 1.17% chance to 2HKO
Of course if Stealth Rock is up you'll most likely die in 2 hits unless you can hit it with a Will-o-Wisp but it's an indicator of the overall physical bulk this thing sports. This spread is slightly bulkier than physically defensive Skarmory on the physical side and quite a bit bulkier on the special side, although obviously your resists aren't quite as nice and you trade a Fighting immunity for Skarmory's Ground immunity.
I will not mention Bullet Seed or Insomnia unless a QC member wants me to. I will also replace Rock Slide with Trick on the banded set since Rock Slide barely hits anything notable harder than your other moves and most of the things it does hit are crippled by Trick. Also I calced it and Flame Charge is maybe worth a brief mention somewhere to OHKO Scizor and Genesect and deal very heavy damage to Ferrothorn, who otherwise walls you. It's a crappy move outside of those three though.
Will also remove mentions of Terrakion and Keldeo since I forgot they don't exist yet.
 
You referred to Gourgeist as a her, while mine is a Shiny male named Jack O'Lantern. I DEMAND RETRIBUTION.

Also Careful nature can be useful for taking some special hits that it wouldn't normally survive.
 

Shroomisaur

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Hey there Flygon, nice analysis! A few thoughts of mine on the sets:

I really like the look of the CB set. Gourgeist is strapped for moves but has just enough options to make it viable! Using Phantom Force just makes me uneasy though... yes it's powerful, but your it gives your opponent a free turn and they can easily switch to a normal or dark type (or a plain 'ol skarmory, etc) to shrug it off while you're locked in. Shadow Sneak still grabs a 91.02% chance to 2HKO 252/0 Jirachi after Stealth Rock & lefties, and has the obvious benefit of negating your awful speed and getting at least one solid hit in, during the turn that Phantom Force's "disappearing" turn. I guess the biggest problem is Gourgeist's lack of other options. Rock Slide would be a good slash and maybe Flame Charge as we discussed. I think Trick definitely deserves a mention there.

The defensive set makes the most of Gourgeist's excellent defense and handles Terrakion and Exca, looks solid to me. I'm not sure if Leech Seed would be as useful with already high HP and Pain Split, maybe slash a STAB option over that?

I really don't think Bullet Seed deserves a mention since it's unreliable and weaker than Seed Bomb 75% of the time. Frisk is the best ability option thanks to the grass buff, so it looks good to me!
 

alexwolf

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I tested the second set and it is great. Make it the first set as i am doubting the viability of the first set. Also, why do you need 52 Speed EVs on Gourgeist? Aegislash never uses Substitute and you have no job taking on Magnezone and Abomasnow. Maxing out HP and Def is better unless there is another reason i am missing.
 

Super Mario Bro

All we ever look for
Do you think that perhaps Protect deserves a slash alongside Pain Split on the second set? It combos well with Leech Seed (think Ferrothorn), and Pain Split has never been that great of a recovery option for defensive mons.
 
alexwolf I was originally using 52 speed so you can Will-o-Wisp Aegislash before it can hit you with Shadow Claw as it cannot KO with Shadow Sneak, but since I wrote that up it seems like the popularity of Shadow Claw has dropped a lot so it's probably not worth going for that benchmark. I will change the spread to 252/252. I think the CB set has promise, it's not quite as strong as some other choice banders but the bulk is really handy because it allows you to check stuff like Garchomp and Zygarde. The Shadow Sneak is also fairly strong and can pick stuff like Latios off after it is weakened slightly. I suspect I need to change the set comments somewhat to emphasise it's role as a bulky attacker that can spinblock rather than a dedicated spinblocker just to beat starmie. Given the popularity of Analytic Starmie it's probably also worth changing the spread to be a little faster, at the very least going up to min speed Tyranitar seems worthwhile since you can hit it really hard with Seed Bomb.
Super Mario Bro That seems like a good option, Pain Split is kind of mediocre with that decent base HP, especially considering the investment. I should probably also mention rest in the comments of the defensive set with the support of a Heal Beller as LN recently used that combination in his stall team and it seemed fairly solid.
 
I really don't think Shadow Force is a good idea as it invites switch-ins and can be protect or sub-baited. If anything, Seed Bomb and Shadow Sneak provides decent options for stab, and Shadow Sneak can be used to pick off weakened stuff--namely Gengar and Alakazam!

I've been running Will-O-Wisp, Leech Seed, Seed Bomb, Shadow Sneak with pretty good results. You're maxing hp anyway--its speed is too low and hp too high for you to use pain split. Will-O-Wisp hits through King's Shield, right? So between Shadow Sneak and Will-O-Wisp you can somewhat check Aegislash.
 

DarkSlay

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Spent a good deal of time testing Gourgeist-Super, so here's my two cents on the Pokemon:

On the Choice Band set, you definitely don't want Phantom Force on there. Locking yourself into a two-turn attack is a terrible idea, as not only can the opponent react to your move, he/she can also set up or force you out immediately after with little penalty. Shadow Sneak is enough of a STAB option to knock out a lot of decent threats, especially fast Ghost-weak Pokemon. Replace Phantom Force with Rock Slide, as it nails things like Talonflame, Charizard and other Fire-, Ice- or Flying-types on the switch. Can really mess up common switch-ins to Gourgeist.

Not quite sure if I agree with the current EV spread of the defensive set. Thanks to Will-O-Wisp and Gourgeist's natural bulk, it can already take a lot of physical hits very well. Its typing is also very conducive to checking physical attacks (resists Ground, is immune to Fighting and Normal, etc.). The speed creep also seems a tad bit irrelevant. Abomasnow is pretty much guaranteed to beat you regardless, since you can't Seed it and Burn only affects mixed sets. Out-speeding Aegislash may seem important, but Aegislash rarely runs a Ghost move that's more powerful than Shadow Sneak, and if it does it's usually Spooky Plate Shadow Ball, which is physical anyway. Also, Gourgeist can one-shot offensive Aegislash with Shadow Sneak if it really wanted to. I'd much prefer to see a spread like 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD Careful nature. Gives it additional bulk on its Special Defense, which helps buffer things like resisted Water and Electric attacks and the like, plus neutral Special attacks like Psychic attacks.

Also, as the user above stated, Phantom Force is not a great option on the defensive set either since it's easy to predict and can be baited. Replace it with Shadow Sneak.

Pain Split is pretty unreliable. It's neat in theory, but unlike Rotom-W (the most common Pain Split user in Gen V), defensive Gourgeist-H is painfully slow. Also, Pain Split is blocked by a lot of things (like Sub), making Gourgeist's weakness to status-preventing Pokemon even greater. Protect is a much better option, playing very well with Leech Seed and giving Gourgeist some sort of option against Choice threats, like Scizor (will it U-Turn? Pursuit? Act as necessary.)

Light Screen absolutely deserves a mention on the defensive set, probably as a slash with Protect. Light Screen gives Gourgeist the ability to Seed/Burn a ton more threats, including mixed sets of certain Pokemon and Special-based threats. It also provides some sort of team support, which is handy in a pinch and can create some unexpected set-up opportunities for teammates. While Screens might have gotten "nerfed" thanks to Infiltrator's overall boost and Defog's buff, most things that use Defog do not like to waste a turn to get Seeded or statused, and most things relevant with Infiltrator (namely, Chandelure) already beat Gourgeist soundly anyway. Both Protect and Light Screen are good, so order is preferential, although I would think Protect may be more widely accepted.
 
I agree with most of the changes you two guys suggested and I will implement them shortly. However, I definitely don't think the main spread should be specially defensive - you lose a huge amount of physical bulk and generally become kind of crappy, I ran some calcs on it and it just doesn't seem worth it. You say that it allows you to beat mixed attackers, but I can hardly think of any relevant ones it lets you defeat - you trade getting wrecked by Salamence Fire Blast for getting wrecked by Outrage because you don't have enough physical bulk. I just couldn't find anything where the extra special bulk was really handy, I mean you can't beat starmie still and you don't want to come in on Rotom-W because both Trick and Will-o-Wisp fuck you over. You're also much more vunerable to Pursuit without the extra defense. Gourgeist isn't bulky enough to be a proper specially defensive Pokemon and I can't think of any mixed attackers you can actually beat thanks to the extra special defense... certainly not enough to justify the immense amount of bulk you lose, it really makes Gourgeist much shakier against tons of different Pokemon. I would be open to adding the spread to the set comments, but I would like to get QC weigh-in before I do anything further as in my experience physical bulk is Gourgeist's best asset and it really wants to make the most of it.
 

alexwolf

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Definitely keep the physically defensive spread, Gourgeist's physical bulk is what makes it worth using over Trevenant in the first place and is needed to deal with Pokemon such as Excadrill and Garchomp. Also, i agree with replacing Shadow Force with Rock Slide on the CB set and with slashing Protect with Pain Split on the defensive set (in whatever order you like). I would like you to keep Pain Split though, because even though its unreliable, especially with Gourgeist's not so low HP stat, it is often useful in scenarios such as this: You switch-in as Garchomp uses Swords Dance. Next turn you use WoW as it uses Dragon Claw / Outrage / Fire Fang. Now, you are left with ~50% health and can either switch out to save your Gourgeist for later or stay in if you don't have any other to bring in. With Pain Split, you can take the second +2 hit and then Pain Split a 87.5% health Garchomp, which weakens Garchomp a lot and brings you up to ~50% health again, counting Lefties. Or you can just take a big hit for 60-70% damage and then burn the opponent, which then proceeds to switch out to another (possibly) healthy Pokemon while you hit it with Pain Split and heal a significant amount of health.

And i think that Shadow Sneak deserves to be slashed before Seed Bomb. Yeah no strong STAB sucks but Shadow Sneak is incredibly useful and your method of dealing with physical attacker is WoW + Leech Seed + Protect / Pain Split, and Shadow Sneak only enhances this method by allowing you to pick off opponents after Leech Seed and WoW take their toll.

Oh and make the defensive set the first in order please.
 
Changes made. I didn't slash Light Screen for now because it looked kind of cluttered, but I can add it in if QC think it's worth having. Changed the CB set to outrun minimum speed Tyranitar since I don't think taking Starmie's Ice Beam is worth 0 spe when you can still die to analytic variants.
 

alexwolf

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Add as a Con that it faces heavy competition from Trevenant.

Add Florges as a partner for the first set, which has Wish and Aromatherapy, both incredible assets for Gourgeist. Mention good hazard users as partners for the first set, as Gourgeist can spinblcok the best spinner (Excadrill). Greninja is an excellent offensive Spiker with great defensive synergy.




QC Approved 1/3
 
FastFlygon

The first set is what makes this Pokemon shine; the second I ain't too sure about and am pretty sceptical. I'd hate to be choice locked with a pretty mediocre set of moves not to mention that they all have low base power... you got better Pokemon that play an offensive role such as Aegislash and Gengar.

Basically...

Slow+Okish base Attack+weak set of moves with decent coverage but hey..you're choice locked so that's irrelevant. In theory this might look ok but in practise this thing is going to be coming in on something that it can take a hIt from and then what? You are more of a liability on the rest of the team.


To conclude, I am heavily opposed to having a Banded set. Flame Charge is pretty bad and if there was OO, then it could have a mention for sure but for now I'd not mention it.

I will discuss this with other QC members later.
 
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