Salamence is Uber.

[UltiMario]

Running Neutral Speed 16HP/252Atk/240Spe makes DDNite outspeed Max Speed Base 130s after a DD, and running Yache Berry gives you one get-out-of-jail-free card to set up another DD or attack. Running DD/Dragon Claw/EQ/[ESpeed/Fire Blast]. ESpeed can be good for an emergency outspeed, like against Scarf Flygon, and Fire Blast makes you not walled by Bronzong and Skarm. So far it's been pretty effective.

 

[akarias]

problem with yachenite is the same as yachemence...over half the checks to them aren't ice attacks in the first place (rock attacks, bullet punch, etc.)

 

[greg3064]

Yeah, IMO Yache doesn't protect against a whole lot. I just gave Nite with DD / Dragon Claw / Earthquake / ES a try. Took out Scarf Flygon in the lategame. Starmie came out and I made the mistake of Dragon Clawing--it was scarfed. Regardless, ES is a great check against a lot of revenge killers that gives it an advantage over Mence.

 

[alamaster]

Running Neutral Speed 16HP/252Atk/240Spe makes DDNite outspeed Max Speed Base 130s after a DD, and running Yache Berry gives you one get-out-of-jail-free card to set up another DD or attack. Running DD/Dragon Claw/EQ/[ESpeed/Fire Blast]. ESpeed can be good for an emergency outspeed, like against Scarf Flygon, and Fire Blast makes you not walled by Bronzong and Skarm. So far it's been pretty effective.

No, you need at the very least 176 speed EVs with a +Spe nature to outspeed base 130s after a DD. This gives you 264 speed and 396 after a DD, outspeeding the base 130s with 394 speed.

 

[KurashiDragon]

I don't see much of a point to run the bulky version now... the only real reason before was so that it wasn't outclassed by Mence. Teams have changed a bit since his banning but faster scarfers and priority users are still common enough to shut Bulky DD Nite down (and offensive Nite in some cases, as even with Extremespeed it loses to ScarfRachi etc.).

Weather or not salamence is gone remains beside the point. BulkyDD is still a very viable set capable of setting up easily. Dragonite has great overall defenses and I think that if you underestimate the bulky set just cause salamence is gone your gonna get owned.

That said I think it would be good if we seperated the offensivedd from the bulkydd.

 

[kokoloko]

No, you need at the very least 176 speed EVs with a +Spe nature to outspeed base 130s after a DD. This gives you 264 speed and 396 after a DD, outspeeding the base 130s with 394 speed.

Nah, Jolteon gets killed by ExtremeSpeed and Life Orb Aero isn't popular enough to warrant that. If you were to run +Spe it would be for ScarfTran.

 

[alamaster]

Okay, I was just correcting him because he wasn't right about outspeeding the base 130s, not whether it was needed or not. If you were running that much speed I wouldn't see the point in bothering to run Extremespeed anyways, it would be more beneficial to run Fire Blast.

 

[Shimrit As]

Just wanted to comment how the F/W/G core has become extremely prevalent and probably forms the backbone for most balanced and offensive teams now. This is because people have assumed that Dragon-typed moves will no longer be popular, but that's not really the case because things like Dragonite and Kingdra can still set-up on many F/W/G cores and wreak havoc. People have already begun anti-metagaming (eg: Toxic Spikes and Triple Dragon) against the new standard F/W/G cores. Does Salamence gone automatically mean F/W/G up, Dragon down? I really don't think so.

Anyway, I think Dragonite can be even more dangerous than Salamence as a wall-breaker, something I noted when I employed it in old OU. An LO Extremespeed really screws up many team's checks for MixMence, like Starmie and Infernape. Against stall teams, especially those which use really slow and bulky Pokemon like Hippowdon and Swampert (over Gliscor and Suicune, for example), Dragonite becomes much more of a menace since the speed loss is irrelevant but the +SpA Draco Meteor kills a lot more.

Just some of my opinions.

 

[Mye]

I still find salamence/garchomp being uber to be strange, seeing as it is affecting other pkmn. In OU doubles, I see people carrying swamperts w/o ice beam, knowing that all but one of the 'ice-weak' threats is gone from OU (that being celebi). If gamefreak was smart, then they'd make shelgon/gabite better, or give us a new OU dragon to fiddle with....say...a yellow lati-twin (to go along w/ the red/blue ones?)

 

[mtr]

Gamefreak makes plenty of Dragons, there will be more in 5th gen. The main problem with the type is that most Dragons have great stats, and the only thing resisting Dragon attacks are Steel-types, which are weak to the common Fire/Ground attacks...which are resisted by Dragons. The vicious cycle continues.

Also, Dragonite being decent for OU has nothing to do with Salamence. Seriously, I'm sick of people comparing the two. Salamence is like a model, while Dragonite is the fat chick that hangs out with her hot friends at the club. Once the hot girls leave the club, it's natural that the fat chick will get hit on more.

 

[Enygma]

Gamefreak makes plenty of Dragons, there will be more in 5th gen. The main problem with the type is that most Dragons have great stats, and the only thing resisting Dragon attacks are Steel-types, which are weak to the common Fire/Ground attacks...which are resisted by Dragons. The vicious cycle continues.

Also, Dragonite being decent for OU has nothing to do with Salamence. Seriously, I'm sick of people comparing the two. Salamence is like a model, while Dragonite is the fat chick that hangs out with her hot friends at the club. Once the hot girls leave the club, it's natural that the fat chick will get hit on more.

Actually, it's more like Mence is the fat chick, and Chomp is the hot model. When the hot model left the club, the fat chick got some new toys to play with and made everyone think that she was hot. And with Mence and her new toys outta the picture, Dragonite doesn't seem so bad with her own pretty toys to fuck around with.

I still find salamence/garchomp being uber to be strange, seeing as it is affecting other pkmn. In OU doubles, I see people carrying swamperts w/o ice beam, knowing that all but one of the 'ice-weak' threats is gone from OU (that being celebi). If gamefreak was smart, then they'd make shelgon/gabite better, or give us a new OU dragon to fiddle with....say...a yellow lati-twin (to go along w/ the red/blue ones?)

And a yellow Lati twin already exists... 0.o

 

[haunter]

I've just deleted a bunch of useless posts where people said that Salamence should be OU because it's not that great in Ubers. This is the last time that I state this:
1) Salamence is Uber and its tiering is no longer being discussed;
2) performances in Ubers have nothing to do with the Uber status of a given Pokemon - the Uber tier is a banlist.

Don't repost the same arguments again or you'll be infracted.

 

[Discharge]

I find thathttp://www.smogon.com/forums/../dp/pokemon/gyarados Gyarados has been used a lot more since Salamance was moved to uber, has anyone else noticed that?

 

[Ace Emerald]

I find thathttp://www.smogon.com/forums/../dp/pokemon/gyarados Gyarados has been used a lot more since Salamance was moved to uber, has anyone else noticed that?

I'm no expert, but I have been using gyara to counter the increase in heatran. Even torment tran can be shut down with taunt (I'm pretty sure, I have never tried the matchup).

 

[Human]

Gyarados is not a Heatran counter. Most have been running Scarf again and the ones I have seen are using HP Electric as their HP to counter Gyarados. Luckily Bulky DD Gyarados can take that hit and get 2 DD which means it can sweep through an entire team if that team does not have priority moves, but at the same time with SR Support Heatran can KO Gyarados.

 

[kokoloko]

I'm no expert, but I have been using gyara to counter the increase in heatran. Even torment tran can be shut down with taunt (I'm pretty sure, I have never tried the matchup).

Gyarados can always beat Torment Tran, just alternate between DD, Waterfall, and if you have it, EQ. Actually, I think Stone Edge breaks its Subs too.

Gyarados is not a Heatran counter. Most have been running Scarf again and the ones I have seen are using HP Electric as their HP to counter Gyarados. Luckily Bulky DD Gyarados can take that hit and get 2 DD which means it can sweep through an entire team if that team does not have priority moves, but at the same time with SR Support Heatran can KO Gyarados.

Gyarados actually does counter Heatran. Bulky ones can take a hit even from HP Electric, and offensive Jolly ones outspeed ScarfTran after a DD. The only things I can think of that come close to being as good a counter to Heatran (besides Blissey, obviously) are Tyranitar and a SpD Swampert (who should really be used more, but that's off-topic).

Anyway, you know how Salamence used to basically set the speed benchmarks in OU before he got banned? Well, now Gyarados' base 81 speed is the most important benchmark (especially considering Dragonite is 1 point slower). Speaking of Gyarados' speed, why the fuck do people still run Adamant on offensive Gyara? -_-

 

[Human]

No clue why anyone will run Adamant. Also Scarfed Heatran does 83% min with HP Electric. SR Support being omnipresent means that it could counter bulky DD Gyarados. Also I would think that the speed given the Bulky DD Gyarados in the analysis is definitely not the best. 196 or 200 Speed EVs to outspeed Base 100 Scarfers after 2 DD is much better. Too bad Bulky DD Gyara suffers quite a bit from 4 move syndrome.

 

[RaikouLover]

Gyarados is not a Heatran counter.

Gyarados is the 3rd best Heatran counter in the fucking game, behind Thick Fat Snorlax and Milotic (instant recovery stalls out even HP GrasS). Gyarados needs a Careful nature and only 16 SpDef EVs to NEVER be 2HKOed by a Life Orb Fire Blast after Stealth Rock in Sandstorm. This is relevant for the Resting Gyarados, which are the best at the moment (DD Gyarados fucking blows). If Heatran is running HP electric just for Gyarados, it has other problems.

 

[Ice-eyes]

Raikou, you missed Roost Aerodactyl in Sand (best counter, not even Explosion works).

How does Haban Dragonite sound? It would screw over people who rely on Flygon.

 

[Ace Emerald]

Gyarados is not a Heatran counter. Most have been running Scarf again and the ones I have seen are using HP Electric as their HP to counter Gyarados. Luckily Bulky DD Gyarados can take that hit and get 2 DD which means it can sweep through an entire team if that team does not have priority moves, but at the same time with SR Support Heatran can KO Gyarados.

I have seen more hp grass, but I use swampert so he is screwed even if he uses hp electric.

@ ice eyes
I think it could be pretty solid considering flygon usage has risin and people might relie on him as their counter.

 

[Curtains]

I have seen a huge rise in Fire,Grass,water,dragonite/flygon,special wall,lead teams lately and its getting a bit stale and repetitive but still interesting to team build around it. team building has been more fun than battling in my opinion.

 

[SJCrew]

Well, let's see: Heatran is countered all the time by bulky Waters, even if it's using HP Grass, it's easier to play around with because it's slower and Fire Blast has a lot of resists, and Explosion is the only hope it has of taking out Dragonite, Kingdra, or Gyarados, all of whom are notorious for their setup moves and won't hesitate to take advantage of the free switch-in. Its most common sets (Scarf, Sub, Shuca) are all equally ineffective against the Pokemon that normally switch in on it.

Do we need to start outlining why none of that applies to Salamence, or do you already feel stupid enough having made that post to begin with?