Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

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Sueshidragon

Banned deucer.
The only thing Buzzwole has is Z-Moves, Recovery, and sub punch (because of leftovers). The thing is buzzwole isn't terrible, it's just not good. Playing against it isn't as hard now, only because you should be prepd for M-Heracross, but it's still a threat. Having recovery from lefties or roost is actually really big. Buzzwole is much harder to wear down so for slower teams that rely on hazards/helmet damage to wear it down into range of their faster mons, it can prove to be more difficult to wear down. (Also having ice punch is huge since it allows it to immediately threaten the 3 best ground types in the tier for an ohko)

I honestly can't see Buzzwole being unranked. It's not a garbage mon that is completely outclassed. It has enough going for it to differentiate itself with recovery and potential Z-Moves.
And to be fair, look at the mons we have in C/C-. You can't say that buzzwole is worse than Torkaol, Diggersby, Magneton, and Ninetails. I don't think we should jump on this unrank Buzzwole train.
Buzzwole isn't a bad Pokemon, I'll agree with you on that much. However, with the meta teeming with psychics and fairies, with well over half of all teams nowadays carrying at least one Tapu, so many of the A- to S Pokemon mash this thing to bits. Volcarona, Lele, Greninja, Koko, Mega Mawile, Mega Medicham, Magearna, Gengar, Mega Zard Y, Mega Alakazam, Mega Pinsir, Latios... a Bug/Fighting physical wall with access to some recovery and a mediocre at best speed tier simply can't do anything other than check Earthquake. Most prominent physical attackers can either blow it back with STAB attacks (Mega Medicham, Mega Mawile), or are stopped by it, so it has that thing going for it.

However. OU is jam packed full of special sweepers, and all of those I listed above among others tear Buzzwole apart. It can easily be forced out by all of those, and it can't do much with its bulk anymore. It'd be great if it could set up hazards, or at least have a meaningful way to patch up its speed. Sadly, it has neither, and the Metagross ban, which gave Buzzwole a reason to be used (seeing as it checked non Zen Headbutt variants) means there's little reason to use Buzzwole anymore. Landorus can pivot out of it, Garchomp carries Flamethrower/Fire Blast for it and Skarm, and Zygarde can Toxic stall it. It's would-be niche in countering the tier's Ground types is better done by Skarmory and Tangrowth, and as countering Mega Metagross and Mega Scizor, the two things it had going for it, are now nonexistent. Metagross is banned, and it's ban also hurt Scizor too. With Keldeo and Gengar on the rise, Buzzwole simply isn't fit for being ranked.

Which brings me to my next (and final) point- Tapu Koko should be A+. Seriously, how is it not already? Greninja and Celesteela flee from this thing, Keldeo fears it, Toxapex hates it, and it's power as a pivot is unmatched. Before the Metagross ban, I wouldn't have argued this, but now that it's gone and Scizor has more nails in its coffin, Koko is a serious threat and peerless as a VoltTurn user. Sure, Scizor dropping is a double edged sword, but Tornadus Therian is still a great partner for it. It's an excellent preserver of momentum for the faster, offensive teams we see so much of this generation, and I think that and it's ample amount of usage merits it a spot in A+.
 
Which brings me to my next (and final) point- Tapu Koko should be A+. Seriously, how is it not already? Greninja and Celesteela flee from this thing, Keldeo fears it, Toxapex hates it, and it's power as a pivot is unmatched. Before the Metagross ban, I wouldn't have argued this, but now that it's gone and Scizor has more nails in its coffin, Koko is a serious threat and peerless as a VoltTurn user. Sure, Scizor dropping is a double edged sword, but Tornadus Therian is still a great partner for it. It's an excellent preserver of momentum for the faster, offensive teams we see so much of this generation, and I think that and it's ample amount of usage merits it a spot in A+.
Hasn't Koko always been like that? I don't see what has changed for it to warrant a rise, it really isn't on the same level as Zygarde, Lele, Celesteela and the Super Greninja Brothers, it's special attack is pretty piss weak and it really struggles to kill stuff without using electric moves. And am I missing something? Were Mega Metagross and Scizor checks to Koko or something? Because I'm pretty sure Meta is outsped and 2HKO'ed, and Bulky Scizor can't 2HKO while Koko can, and nobody runs offensive mega scizor.
 
Hasn't Koko always been like that? I don't see what has changed for it to warrant a rise, it really isn't on the same level as Zygarde, Lele, Celesteela and the Super Greninja Brothers, it's special attack is pretty piss weak and it really struggles to kill stuff without using electric moves. And am I missing something? Were Mega Metagross and Scizor checks to Koko or something? Because I'm pretty sure Meta is outsped and 2HKO'ed, and Bulky Scizor can't 2HKO while Koko can, and nobody runs offensive mega scizor.
In the case of MMeta, it was a check to Koko if it ran EQ. However, it wasn't something commonly used to check Koko, so I don't see the point in a raise.
 
In the case of MMeta, it was a check to Koko if it ran EQ. However, it wasn't something commonly used to check Koko, so I don't see the point in a raise.
Was there any other point of running earthquake on Mega Metagross besides koko? I can't think of many other things it would want to hit with it.
 
Opposing megagross and any other steel type hit by it. EQ was always viable as a no-miss, no-speed drop alternative to hammer arm.
Ok thanks, been wondering about that.

I'd also like to hear your opinion on a koko rise, do you support it or not? I'm not too convinced that enough has changed in the meta to warrant a rise.
 
Volcarona from A+ to A

Don't get me wrong, Volcarona is still a good Pokemon It's the only Pokemon in A+ that's severely crippled by rocks. Recent metagame adaptions have Tyranitar, Mega Charizard Y, Mega Pinsir, Latios and Chansey being more in the way than before. There's also Greninja-Ash. And just because it forces offensive teams to run 101+ Scarfers doesn't make them any worse. Speaking of which, Nihilego is also coming back around again. The viability decrease of Mega Scizor doesn't help either. Again, it's still a very good Pokemon in the metagame, but it's just really prepared for at the moment, and therefore I just don't think it's on the same level of viability as Tangrowth or Magearna, at least for now anyways.



EDIT: Seeing counterarguments is starting to make me change my mind
 
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Nuked

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Volcarona from A+ to A

Don't get me wrong, Volcarona is still a good Pokemon It's the only Pokemon in A+ that's severely crippled by rocks. Recent metagame adaptions have Tyranitar, Mega Charizard Y, Mega Pinsir, Latios and Chansey being more in the way than before. There's also Greninja-Ash. And just because it forces offensive teams to run 101+ Scarfers doesn't make them any worse. Speaking of which, Nihilego is also coming back around again. The viability decrease of Mega Scizor doesn't help either. Again, it's still a very good Pokemon in the metagame, but it's just really prepared for at the moment, and therefore I just don't think it's on the same level of viability as Tangrowth or Magearna, at least for now anyways.
The thing is, none of these outside of Chansey are really safe defensive answers. If people start using Latios and Tyranitar as Volcarona checks, it'll start running Bug Buzz which OHKOes Tyranitar after rocks and also Latios. Charizard Y just powers up its moves if anything, as Inferno Overdrive OHKOes at +1 and just makes it stronger. Even Mega Pinsir's quick attack doesn't OHKO without prior damage. It can easily adapt to metagame changes and the only real answer here is Chansey.
 

Yoshi

IT'S FINK DUMBASS
Question, is the reason why gengar's viability didn't change that much even after losing Levitate was because that most earthquake users in the tier had other ways of killing gengar, i.e Garchomp could just Dragon Claw, Drill had Moldbreaker etc?
The main reason Gengar had dropped was due to New Toy Syndrome. This usually happens every generation, but like the rest of us, we were extremely surprised when Gengar was placed in UU. It's very unfortunate that we no longer have a Pokemon that's been in OU since the beginning, but that's beside the point. Basically, at the beginning of the meta, we didn't find much use for it, or it just didn't work then. Now, however, it is quite the opposite, with Gengar being quite a staple to the current metagame.

-> B rank
In the early days of the meta, Alolan Muk proved to be useful by tanking special hits, specifically from the threat: Tapu Lele. With the recent ban of Mega Metagross, it's clear that Lele's usage will rise. This means Lele will become much more of a threat, like before. Now, I know what you're thinking, "yeah but Lele is really overrated." Regardless of it being overrated, it's still a very powerful Pokemon, even enough to warrant the rise of Alolan Muk.

But that's not all Alolan Muk can do. It has Knock Off, a very useful item in a stall-filled meta game. Knocking off Chansey's eviolite can be huge while facing stall, especially since it lowers the defenses of the high-HP Pokemon. Knocking off recovery of other Pokemon like Toxapex is also very useful, meaning these Pokemon are left to their own recovery moves if they have them. In general, knocking an item off is very useful, especially when they can be the difference from a Pokemon being bad and good.

Just some thoughts on Alolan Muk, lol.
 
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I also support the nom for Alola Muk to B. It lost a very important check on M-Meta who was immune to one of his stabs and could shrug off most of his attacks while 2KOing with MMash or Equake. A good defensive typing with a good special bulk allow it to handle some dangerous special attackers of the tier like lele, the frogs, non-grassium heatran, Volcarona, Latios and gengar who are showing up lately also it got some utility between spreading poison, pursuit and knocking itens.

While it can handle some important threats it has some important shortcomings. it can't do much against others steel types who aren't Scizor, Ferrothorn and non-grassium Heatran, it can't stay on a single ground type except for Nidoking, gastrodon, and quagsire who still 2KO without much problem and strong physical attackers can bring it down easily, but between Knocking off itens, dealing with special threats and spreanding status A-Muk sounds like a solid B.
 
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earl

(EVIOLITE COMPATIBLE)
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I also support the nom for Alola Muk to B. It lost a very important check on M-Meta who was immune to one of his stabs and could shrug off most of his attacks while 2KOing with MMash or Equake. A good defensive typing with a good special bulk allow it to handle some dangerous special attackers of the tier like lele, the frogs, non-grassium heatran, Volcarona, Latios and gengar who are showing up lately also it got some utility between spreading poison, pursuit and knocking itens.

While it can handle some important threats it has some important shortcomings. it can't do much against others steel types who aren't Scizor, Ferrothorn and non-grassium Heatran, it can't stay on a single ground type except for Nidoking, gastrodon, and quagsire who still 2KO without much problem and strong physical attackers can bring it down easily, but between Knocking off itens, dealing with special threats and spreanding status A-Muk sounds like a solid B.
I believe you are using an outdated set. The current set being used for the write up eschews Fire Blast in favor of Rock Slide to better check Volcarona and Mega Charizard Y. Therefore Alolan Muk really can't handle Steels.

To keep this from being a one liner, I personally believe Alolan Muk should stay where it is as hazards have only gotten more prevalent and harder to clear, really hurting Alolan Muk's ability to pivot. With 1 layer of Spikes+Rocks up Alolan Muk can no longer safely switch into Specs Tapu Lele:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 120 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 153-180 (37 - 43.5%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
(153, 154, 156, 157, 159, 162, 163, 165, 166, 168, 171, 172, 174, 175, 177, 180)

And additionally Volcarona now has a chance to OHKO with inferno overdrive:

+1 252 SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 120 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 276-325 (66.8 - 78.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
(276, 279, 282, 285, 289, 292, 295, 298, 301, 304, 309, 312, 315, 318, 321, 325)

With just 1 layer of spikes up Alolan Muk's job as a specially defensive pivot is severely limited as Muk is unable to consistently check what it wants to. While the departure Mega Metagross has made Alolan Muk's life a bit easier (really wasn't Muk's #1 problem anyhow), the current metagame really doesn't warrant a rise with the abundance of hazard stacking and with Lando-T still being #1 in usage.
 

bludz

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The problem with Alolan Muk is that it's not even a true answer to Specs Lele, which is the one mon it's best known for "countering." Even without hazards up you have to win a 50 50 if you switch into Moonblast

Prime example stolen from ou council members who I didn't get permission from (watch the first 3 turns, the rest is worthless because zz Pheromosa): http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-262238

Muk really just isn't on the level of stuff like Mimikyu, Mantine, and so forth. It's extremely slow and not all that strong, and while it checks a few prominent threats its also total fodder for others like Lando, Zygarde, Garchomp, and other physical attackers.
 

6ft Torbjorn

formerly JoycapJoshST
Going back to the whole "unrank Buzzwole" thing, I've had a few thoughts about it that I'd like to share alongside it's comparison the recently released MegaCross. At the moment I think C- is fine, but unless it's going to drop in usage to UU or something - I think unranking it is a little harsh for now.

Firstly, Buzzwole does have niches over MegaCross in the form of more coverage and access to Z-moves. If we remember back to the comparison that was made between Pheromosa and MBee a while back (no mods this is not MBee discussion, shut up) most agreed that there was little point running MBee due to Pheromosa being there and the 'opportunity cost' debacle, taking up your Mega stone. Here, oddly enough, it's the other way around, and to be frank I don't 100% see why (other then each mons inherent traits ofc)... does this mean opportunity cost as an argument is dead? I'm not saying Buzzwole is better then MCross (that would be stupid), but it's still something to note. With that, Buzzwole has a LOT more variety in its sets, ranging from CB; 3 attacks Roost; SubPunch etc., and being in an offensive UB - could probably use a Z-move for a given coverage slot, allowing a lure into a free Beast Boost (Z-Ice Punch for Zygarde, for example) - similar to Mosa her majesty. On the flipside, MHeras' sets boil down to 4 attacks, or SD (one of those attacks being given up for setup). Hell, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say that MCross is forced to run EQ because Toxapex anyway, so it's severely strapped for slots IMO. Buzzwole? Meh, I'd say we have a meta to develop regarding it - and it's coverage is one of those reasons.

With this in mind, I believe Buzzwole to have better MUs with some of the top tiers, examples being Lando-T; Zygarde and Celesteela, thanks to said coverage that Heracross simply doesn't have. Special shoutouts to my friend PM1 for making Scarf Buzzwole work, as a surprise RVK to untrasformed Greninja forms, as shown in this... rather hilarious replay:


(Back early meta, but my point still stands)

Also (and I'm aware that Ubers is a completely different meta) in ubers - Buzzwole sits comfortably among the B ranks there... but we're planning to unrank it here ? I can't say I can think of any mons on the ubers VR that are higher than their place in OU, so explain that one to me.

And yes, I'm aware 'muh, MHera has 181 base attack' and 'muh, MHera has a better MU vs Sub users' etc.. But it's still worth noting what Buzzwole does have over MHera. If anything, I find this situation similar to the Hoopa-U vs Hydra' comparison made a few pages ago, where one has more options as opposed to more consistent options and/or more power.

With all said and done, C- is fine - but don't unrank it.

Oh, and:

every tom dick and harry that can hit harder than a wet paper bag.
This actually made my day. My thanks Mame YO
 
Going back to the whole "unrank Buzzwole" thing, I've had a few thoughts about it that I'd like to share alongside it's comparison the recently released MegaCross. At the moment I think C- is fine, but unless it's going to drop in usage to UU or something - I think unranking it is a little harsh for now.

Firstly, Buzzwole does have niches over MegaCross in the form of more coverage and access to Z-moves. If we remember back to the comparison that was made between Pheromosa and MBee a while back (no mods this is not MBee discussion, shut up) most agreed that there was little point running MBee due to Pheromosa being there and the 'opportunity cost' debacle, taking up your Mega stone. Here, oddly enough, it's the other way around, and to be frank I don't 100% see why (other then each mons inherent traits ofc)... does this mean opportunity cost as an argument is dead? I'm not saying Buzzwole is better then MCross (that would be stupid), but it's still something to note. With that, Buzzwole has a LOT more variety in its sets, ranging from CB; 3 attacks Roost; SubPunch etc., and being in an offensive UB - could probably use a Z-move for a given coverage slot, allowing a lure into a free Beast Boost (Z-Ice Punch for Zygarde, for example) - similar to Mosa her majesty. On the flipside, MHeras' sets boil down to 4 attacks, or SD (one of those attacks being given up for setup). Hell, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say that MCross is forced to run EQ because Toxapex anyway, so it's severely strapped for slots IMO. Buzzwole? Meh, I'd say we have a meta to develop regarding it - and it's coverage is one of those reasons.

With this in mind, I believe Buzzwole to have better MUs with some of the top tiers, examples being Lando-T; Zygarde and Celesteela, thanks to said coverage that Heracross simply doesn't have. Special shoutouts to my friend PM1 for making Scarf Buzzwole work, as a surprise RVK to untrasformed Greninja forms, as shown in this... rather hilarious replay:


(Back early meta, but my point still stands)

Also (and I'm aware that Ubers is a completely different meta) in ubers - Buzzwole sits comfortably among the B ranks there... but we're planning to unrank it here ? I can't say I can think of any mons on the ubers VR that are higher than their place in OU, so explain that one to me.

And yes, I'm aware 'muh, MHera has 181 base attack' and 'muh, MHera has a better MU vs Sub users' etc.. But it's still worth noting what Buzzwole does have over MHera. If anything, I find this situation similar to the Hoopa-U vs Hydra' comparison made a few pages ago, where one has more options as opposed to more consistent options and/or more power.

With all said and done, C- is fine - but don't unrank it.

Oh, and:



This actually made my day. My thanks Mame YO
You literally didn't make an argument in this post

Like, okay, Buzzwole can use Z-Moves, but you haven't explained why being able to use Z-Moves makes it have a niche, not only over Mega Heracross, but also over the plethora of other effective Z-Move users

Also sure, Buzzwole has different sets, but half of them all lose to similar mons, and none of them change its abysmal special bulk
Also what is the role of those sets in the meta? if you want a breaker, you have mhera, and if you want a ground resist, you have bulu...who hits many of the same threats...just because you have different sets doesn't mean you are versatile, if none of those sets have a great niche
as a standalone mon it's maybe not bad but seriously there is no case where i would ever think "damn, i really need buzzwole and not something else to complete my team"

Ubers rank is totally irrelevant wtf. Gengar is a lower rank in UU than OU, so "explain that one to me." mons perform differently in different metas
 
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6ft Torbjorn

formerly JoycapJoshST
Yeah, I guess that's fair enough Scarf Nihilego. The only bit I would rebuttal is this:

Like, okay, Buzzwole can use Z-Moves, but you haven't explained why being able to use Z-Moves makes it have a niche, not only over Mega Heracross, but also over the plethora of other effective Z-Move users
My point was that offensive UBs appreciate getting kills, and Z-moves give them a means to do just that (again, remember Pheromosa?). The coverage it has over MHera allows it to find that kill in multiple ways, and be rewarded for it.

MHera doesn't get rewarded for it's kills. Buzzwole does.
 
Yeah, I guess that's fair enough Scarf Nihilego. The only bit I would rebuttal is this:



My point was that offensive UBs appreciate getting kills, and Z-moves give them a means to do just that (again, remember Pheromosa?). The coverage it has over MHera allows it to find that kill in multiple ways, and be rewarded for it.

MHera doesn't get rewarded for it's kills. Buzzwole does.
Pheromosa was busted with Z-Moves because its main job was to stay alive and sweep. Z-moves let it 1hko that one mon that might and run away with the game with its stupid speed, possibly a qd up as well. also phero had multiple s rank sets, notably choice specs, which were not z move reliant.

buzzwole is theoretically rewarded with kills, but are you really gonna tell me that a +1 buzzwole with trash tier speed is somehow more threatening than a phero
 
Pheromosa was busted with Z-Moves because its main job was to stay alive and sweep. Z-moves let it 1hko that one mon that might and run away with the game with its stupid speed, possibly a qd up as well. also phero had multiple s rank sets, notably choice specs, which were not z move reliant.

buzzwole is theoretically rewarded with kills, but are you really gonna tell me that a +1 buzzwole with trash tier speed is somehow more threatening than a phero
Ok to be fair he is saying keep buzzwole at C- not move it to S rank lol. I don't see how he was trying to say buzzwole is as good or "more threatening than a phero".

For me, I just think people get on the lets unrank this, lets unrank that train way too easily. Buzzwole isn't very good but it can still actually be problematic for a lot of teams. I can discuss more about why it differentiates itself but tbh idc enough about buzzwole to do that lol
 

Gary

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Pardon me for a moment while I go full retard.

For the last fucking time, and I don't want to repeat myself, a Pokemon's viability in another tier has ZERO I repeat ZERO I repeat ZERO I repeat ZERO effect on our rankings. Every metagame is different, just because a tier is labeled "higher" or "lower" than another tier, doesn't give you the right to refute a nomination on the grounds of it being more viable in a tier above or below it. For example, Alolan Muk is arguably way more useful in Ubers for its ability to invalidate one of the most dangerous Pokemon in the tier, Mega Gengar, as well as a few other useful threats, while in OU, its Pursuit trapping abilities are not nearly as important as up there. Keldeo is one of OU's best Scarfers for its ability to offensively and even defensively check some of the most prominent Pokemon in the metagame, yet in UU, its effectiveness is arguably lesser because of how dominating Latias is as well as other splashable checks such as Celebi, Amoonguss, and Clefable.

Personally, I don't think Buzzwole should be unranked, despite it being pretty mediocre, but arguing not to keep it unranked on the grounds that it's B Rank in another tiers Viability Ranking thread, is completely unacceptable, and proves to me that you fail to understand the concept of a Viability Ranking thread in the first place, and you should probably continue to lurk more before you even think about posting in this thread again. This is something I'm not going to be taking lightly from now on, because it completely derails the thread and adds absolutely zero healthy discussion. Discussion on this topic ends here.

Fuck.
 

Punchshroom

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So to respond to JoycapJoshST, and anyone else who intends to continue this discussion for him since Gary just laid into the guy:

Buzzwole's access to certain offensive options that Mega Heracross simply isn't enough to offset the sheer disparity in breaking power between the two. Mega Heracross's immense power (its Close Combat is approximately as strong as CB Buzzwole's Hammer Arm), Skill Link, and access to Swords Dance make it so that Mega Heracross is extremely self sufficient in punching significant holes in the large majority of the tier with just 3 moves in dual STABs + Rock Blast. Meanwhile, 4 moves is arguably still not enough for Buzzwole as it has to cover so much ground that its STAB moves cannot, especially since its Fighting STAB is unreliable and compromise its breaking power (walls either sponge its hits better or start outspeeding it), or make it susceptible or worse yet setup fodder for dangerous threats like Zards, Volcarona, Magearna, etc., which necessitates the use of these coverage moves even more.

Let's look at the moves Buzzwole has and would want in this meta:
- Superpower / Hammer Arm: Fighting STAB and strongest STAB, but undesirable side effects greatly prompt the need for backup moves to use
- Leech Life / Lunge: More reliable STAB, though its generally poor coverage and more importantly lesser power than the Fighting STABs (a problem not shared by Mega Heracross) still makes these more expendable. Though it hits Mew which Buzzwole otherwise can't touch.
- Ice Punch: while it seems like a nice advantage Buzzwole has over Mega Heracross in the Lando-T and Zygarde matchup, not using this puts Buzzwole at risk of having the tables turned on it by SD Lando-T and Coil Zygarde, so now it looks like less of a bonus and more like a necessity for Buzzwole to even properly do its job at being a Ground check (MHera's access to SD makes it not as susceptible to those two)
- Poison Jab: admittedly, this can be nice for bulky Fairies like Tapu Fini, Clefable, and Azumarill but MHeracross's +2 Rock Blast already does significant damage to Tapu Fini and straight up cleaves through Magic Guard Clef and Azu. Meanwhile, Unaware Clef, Poison Jab's main target, is primarily found on stall teams, which have other members that can take on Buzzwole, notably Mega Sableye and Toxapex.
- Earthquake: Buzzwole's only chance at even phazing Toxapex in the slightest. Expect Buzzwole to contribute zero offensive presence against a Toxapex team otherwise. Also hits AloWak and Gengar.
- Stone Edge: You want this to not invite in the likes of Charizard, as well as prevent setup opportunities for stuff like Volcarona, Mega Pinsir, and Gyarados.
- Substitute: I omitted Focus Punch alongside this because Focus Punch conceals the fact that Buzzwole likes Sub not for allowing it to use Focus Punch, but because Buzzwole appreciates being behind a Sub in general. Not that it even makes use of this as well as Mega Heracross since Buzzwole's Fighting STAB is really unreliable for Sub: Superpower and Hammer Arm's stat drops conflict with Sub's staying power, while Focus Punch pretty much forces you to be behind a Sub to consistently work.
- Roost: grants Buzzwole recovery and lets it function like a consistent Ground check, as well as being one of Buzzwole's greatest niches over MHeracross. With that said, Ice Punch becomes mandatory for this as a result for aforementioned reasons and Fighting STAB because it pairs far better with Ice than Bug STAB, leaving only one moveslot open to cover potential threats.
Thought about ThunderPunch as it collectively covers Fighting-resistant Waters like Tapu Fini, Toxapex, Mantine, and Gyarados, but I consider this less useful since Buzzwole can hit them with other moves that also cover more significant threats, and ThunderPunch is debatably not even enough for Toxapex.

This isn't versatility; this is straight up 4MSS. Dropping even one of these moves hurts Buzzwole's niche and overall presence considerably, while Mega Heracross can sit back and still be able to pick and choose. The Z-moves also only really help Buzzwole even net kills in the first place, something MHeracross has far greater ease achieving: literally the only thing I can think of for Z-move Buzzwole to break that MHera has no chance against is Z-Poison Jab against Unaware Clef, and if you've read my aforementioned descriptions about Poison Jab's uses, you'll realize that you won't even reliably bait your target since the opponent has alternative answers. Buzzwole's offensive niche in this meta is incredibly strained, and it's safe to say that Buzzwole doesn't hold even a matchstick to MHeracross in the attacking department, forcing it to rely on its defensive niche which, while not as eclipsed by other alternatives, still leaves Buzzwole pretty overshadowed.

Btw, I also don't know where you got the impression that Buzzwole has a superior matchup against Celesteela: MHeracross takes only ~51% at the very most from defensive Celesteela's Flamethrower and OHKOes with +2 Close Combat, while Buzzwole needs ThunderPunch to even accomplish the feat of 2HKOing defensive Celesteela since its Fighting STAB's stat drops most definitely impede Buzzwole's ability to 2HKO Celesteela, and even then Celesteela can Protect itself out of TPunch's 2HKO range. The only scenario which I can imagine Buzzwole doing better than MHeracross against Celesteela is Choice Band Superpower vs offensive Celesteela after SR damage, and Choiced Buzzwole is an extremely shaky idea in this meta as its attacks are all risky to be locked into considering the sheer amount of setup threats in the tier that can take advantage of their resistances to Buzzwole's STABs or against its unSTAB moves, which makes Beast Boost almost useless.

Gary: unexcapetable -> unacceptable :P
 
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Yea, offensively Buzzwole is currently outclassed (if it gets Swords Dance and CC or Drain Punch that might change).

Defensively it has its merits, even though it's overshadowed by other stuff, so that's likely enough to keep the thing ranked IMO.

A Defensive set of Roost/Ice Punch/Stone Edge/Fighting STAB is probably the best option, since it can beat Lando-T/Zygarde while not being a free switch for Volcarona/Charizard and still hitting decently hard with Fighting STAB.
 
Pardon me for a moment while I go fuck.
Buzzwole is a decent mon that I feel fully warrants a C Rank. Idk wat all you bitches are "c- ing" about. While I agree it is only a niche mon, it walls some pretty threatening stuff like lando, zygarde, garchomp, fighting types, poison types, dark types. The tapus can KO but they can't switch in (NEWSFLASH: buzzwole packs pj) and flying types can't switch in either thanks to thunder punch or ice punch. Also idk wat you are ranting about wallaing being the best thing buzzwole can do. The choice band set ain't bad and nothing can really switch into it. The sub-punch set ain't bad and it punishes switches. It hurts to get smacked like that.

I understand that last paragraph is what Gary said not to do, so here is what buzzwole does in the meta summed up.
Buzzwole:
* forces out ground types (ground types are the current meta)
* fucks common fairy type switchins with coverage
* beats poisons
 

Muscle K

Banned deucer.
Volcarona from A+ to A

Don't get me wrong, Volcarona is still a good Pokemon It's the only Pokemon in A+ that's severely crippled by rocks. Recent metagame adaptions have Tyranitar, Mega Charizard Y, Mega Pinsir, Latios and Chansey being more in the way than before. There's also Greninja-Ash. And just because it forces offensive teams to run 101+ Scarfers doesn't make them any worse. Speaking of which, Nihilego is also coming back around again. The viability decrease of Mega Scizor doesn't help either. Again, it's still a very good Pokemon in the metagame, but it's just really prepared for at the moment, and therefore I just don't think it's on the same level of viability as Tangrowth or Magearna, at least for now anyways.
Now here is a good nomination.

Volcarona is an overrated mon that should have never been placed into the A+ Rank to begin with.
As the incredibly wise Toshiro46 previously mentioned:


A+ --> A


Because it shouldn't have gone to A+ in the first place.

Look at the A+/S mons (Not including Volc). Name one of them that absolutely requires a mon to support them to function effectively. There are none. Landorus, Tangrowth, Zygarde, and Gren can be put on basically every team, and Celesteela, A-Gren, and Lele aren't far off from that virtue. Volcarona is not a mon that you can just put on any team, because that means you're filling not one, but two teamslots. Hazard Removal is always part of the package with Volc, because 99% of teams on the ladder run Stealth rock on at least one mon, and Lando, the most consistent user of it, is still sitting at its stupid usage rates. Every team including Volc is pressured from the get go by having to spend turns on defogging or spinning or otherwise keeping rocks off the field. That's kind of a big deal, and it's really being downplayed.

I've posted long and mostly still relevant (rip my charti argument) arguments on the matter.

To recap them, Volcarona is:

1. not splashable
2. not versatile
3. predictable
4. rocks weak
5. not self sufficient
6. one dimensional
7. prepared for along with other common sweepers by scarfers and priority.
The A+ rank is generally categorised by the "efficiency" ( couldn't think of another word to put it) of a mon and in previous generations it was defined by how effectively it could preform a single roll. I'm sure that most can agree that the Sun and Moon A+ Rank consists of mons that are able to shine in most situations by not only being able to potentially provide multiple rolls to a single team - requiring little support, being flexible with it's rolls, not being two-dimensional and being tier influencing.

I will praise volcarona for being the tier's current most influencing setup sweeper, forcing many teams to utilise a mon with a base speed over 100 along with a Rock-Type move to be able to check the mon.

But to me (it's my opinion remember!) I feel like Volcarona's place in the A+ rank is undeserved, and is only there due to two key factors. One being that its presence in the tier (i.e Forcing Teams to use Scarf Nihilego, Rock Slide / Stone Edge Garchomp ) has caused it to become overrated, as well as the fact that it suffers from New-Toy Syndrome.

Volcarona simply put requires too much support for it to be able to sweep, especially comparing it to some of the other A+ mons, such as Magearna, Tangrowth, Ash-Gren and Protean Gren to name some - all of which can be placed onto any team without having many build restrictions - Volcarona is the outlier when considering these factors - it requires another mon to remove hazards for you - which means that theoretically, Volcarona requires two team slots, which no shit is incredibly important to a team's composition.

Another factor is that Volcarona is not as versatile as the other A+ ranked mons - Tangrowth can be used as both a physical and special wall - at times even serving as a powerful sun sweeper - and shares great defensive synergy with the majority of the tier, Magearna can also be used as a wallbreaker and sweeper, but is most commonly used as a bulky defensive pivot, yet again having a great defensive typing that allows it to be placed on many Lele-weak teams, Greninja can be used as an excellent wallbreaker that gains STAB from literally any move and can also be used as an incredible wallbreaker / sweeper in its Ash Form.

Volcarona possesses none of those qualities, which nearly all other mons in the A+ rank possess.


To "Conclude" (i'll be back for sure),

Volcarona is a overhyped mon that has undeservingly ended up in the A+ rank, and should move down to the A rank.

EDIT: The lord and saviour Gary can you please blacklist Buzzwole? It's basically a re-hash of the "Bee Who Shall Not Be Named" all over again.

Thanks :]
 

Yoshi

IT'S FINK DUMBASS
Just got back from school, I would've responded sooner.

Yeah I agree with deranking Buzzwole. Seems reasonable.
The problem with Alolan Muk is that it's not even a true answer to Specs Lele, which is the one mon it's best known for "countering." Even without hazards up you have to win a 50 50 if you switch into Moonblast

Prime example stolen from ou council members who I didn't get permission from (watch the first 3 turns, the rest is worthless because zz Pheromosa): http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-262238

Muk really just isn't on the level of stuff like Mimikyu, Mantine, and so forth. It's extremely slow and not all that strong, and while it checks a few prominent threats its also total fodder for others like Lando, Zygarde, Garchomp, and other physical attackers.
So why not rearrange the set to fit the current meta? We haven't seen Alolan Muk in a while so it makes sense to have a different spread.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 123-145 (29.7 - 35%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

I'd say this is pretty reasonable, it basically 4HKOs if rocks are up, and look what Muk does back:

4 Atk Muk-Alola Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Lele: 228-270 (81.1 - 96%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

This is a definitive counter. While it may not be running much attack, that could definitely be arranged.

78 Atk Muk-Alola Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Lele: 246-290 (87.5 - 103.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

We could run this set, and while we do sacrifice our HP, this is what Moonblast is doing:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 180 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 123-145 (31 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

As you can see, sacrificing 72 HP only raises the damage done to you by a slight amount.

All in all, I still think Alolan Muk is a good Specs Tapu Lele counter. But yeah I agree, a lot of the prominent Pokemon in the meta do beat Alolan Muk, however, that's why I'm only vouching for B rank.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 123-145 (29.7 - 35%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

4 Atk Muk-Alola Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Lele: 228-270 (81.1 - 96%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

78 Atk Muk-Alola Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Lele: 246-290 (87.5 - 103.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 180 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 123-145 (31 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
 

bludz

a waffle is like a pancake with a syrup trap
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Yoshizilla the extra spd makes no difference in this specific scenario. Its a guaranteed 3HKO with Rocks. Switch into Moonblast and you are in danger of dropping to 2 more Moonblasts. So it still comes down to a 50 50 - if you Poison Jab they can switch out, and if you Pursuit while they stay in then you get KO'd by the following Moonblast.

This is not to mention that Pursuit does not OHKO when they switch either.
 
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