SpeedShuffling: A Discussion of Swift Destruction (+1 example set!)

[d2m]

<Any pokemon in the world> uses Taunt.

<Slightly fewer pokemon> uses Encore. (Breaks Sleep Talk and makes you struggle).

Team fails.

 

[Incarnation]

I want to see a SpeedShuffling Lugia in Ubers, it has a very nice speed and natural bulky, with 90 base spc atk/atk it won't hurt to have no attacking move. (It learns WW and Roar)

Speedshuffling Lugia sounds like a really good idea, especially with Darkrai everywhere. Pity it's weak to Dark moves, though. I'll try to work that out.

 

[tubbablubba]

Uh... what do you do when they only have one pokemon left (for the assist team) does roar and whirlwind still do damage to them.

 

[Erodent]

That's exactly my point. You want Persian to keep using Phasing moves without stop. You could put a fire blast somewhere in there and pray it hits scizor, but that's not very likely. In the same way you could accidentially use fire blast through persian on your opponent's heatran who then OHKOs your persian, making your team useless.

These moves could be put on the pokémon other than persian, and these pokémon could be used to form some sort of buffer for threats like scizor that could ruin persian. For example, let's say you succesfully got your spikes and SR up and are phasing with persian, but then Scizor switches in. You switch to your snorlax and absorb the bullet punch, and counter the second bullet punch, KOing Scizor. Now you can simply let Snorlax die and switch in Persian again to continue your Assistshuffling, now without the threat of Scizor lurking around.

This way you could also use destiny bond to finish off the final pokémon without the danger of accidentially killing Persian.

I finally understand your logic, but putting Fire Blast is a bad idea. You know, I could actually work on a proper Assist Team with this newfound info...brilliant!

 

[Riverside]

I've tried the Assist team (at least in NB supremacy) and assist never selects roar or whirlwind.

 

[Incarnation]

I finally understand your logic, but putting Fire Blast is a bad idea. You know, I could actually work on a proper Assist Team with this newfound info...brilliant!

I actually gave Fire Blast as an example of why using finishing-off moves that can be selected by Assist is a bad idea and shouldn't be done. I'm sorry if my post was hard to understand.

I've tried the Assist team (at least in NB supremacy) and assist never selects roar or whirlwind

That's odd.. the analysis of Assist doesn't rule out the use of Whirlwind or Roar, neither in DPP or RSE. It could be a glitch in NB.

EDIT: I'm working out a beta version of an Assistshuffle team atm, I'll post it in this thread for discussion if noone has a problem with this thread getting a little RMT-ish.

 

[Bologo]

I actually tried out the SpeedShuffling Aerodactyl a couple of weeks ago. It's a good set, but it really does need a lot of support to work well. It also requires a bit of patience, because even though Rest only has a 33% chance of being chosen by Sleep Talk, it can seem like a 99% chance most of the time...

In particular, it needs:

• Sandstorm support - This is absolutely vital to Aerodactyl's survival, as he is VERY frail without it, and with a SR weakness, it will be too hard to come in without it, even with 248 HP EVs and a resistance. However, with Sandstorm support, he actually takes special hits very well.
• Spikes/Stealth Rock/(Possibly Toxic Spikes) - These aren't vital for Aerodactyl to live, but they're definitely vital if you want him to do anything. If 3 layers of Spikes and a layer of Stealth Rock are up, the opponent is quite helpless for 2 turns, and with his defenses under Sandstorm, it's not that difficult for him to Rest and start up the cycle again.
• Something to get rid of Scizor - Yeah, he really needs something that can get rid of this guy, or else he's not going to do much. I personally packed a Magnezone, since he works pretty well with Aerodactyl.

In addition, unless the opponent's last pokemon is Toxiced/Burned in some way (via Toxic Spikes or someone else using Toxic/Will-O-Wisp),and Aerodactyl is the last pokemon, then you have an automatic loss. So basically, it's essential to make sure he's not the last pokemon if the opponent can survive the entry hazards on the way in.

Basically, I really like SpeedShuffling Aerodactyl, but unfortunately, it's not something you can just fit on any team, you basically have to build your team around making it work.

 

[Snorlaxe]

I tried the team Erodent posted just for fun, and found that it requires quite a bit of luck to pull off. I keep on getting more Spikes / Stealth Rock than I care to remember. Also, once they have one Pokemon left (which only happened to me a couple of times), Roar / Whirlwind doesnt affect them. In other words, it doesnt work as a team, and it requires quite a bit of luck and team support to work as an individual Pokemon.

Bottom line: While it is a very interesting concept, it isnt extremely effective due to all of the Scarfed Pokemon running around in OU these days. It definitely has surpise value, though.

 

[viol and bass]

If I'm not mistaken, mist ball lowers special attack rather than special defense.

 

[capefeather]

The odds of the flinchax and using roar/ww with sleep talk are similar.

The bonus should be the entry hazards.

The odds aren't the problem. Flinch hax isn't the one trick that physical Jirachi and Togekiss do, thus they aren't gimmicks. Not to mention the sets are actually effective.

I think the concept in this thread is interesting, but like others have said, it has a few obvious holes and that's probably why we're even talking about it here instead of seeing it a lot on Shoddy.

 

[VKCA]

I think its a pretty neat concept, but it seems like a waste of a latias for something that seems kinda novelty, especially considering you only have a 33% chance of selecting roar.
As for erodents team, it seems interesting, but what are you supposed to do against the last pokemon?

 

[Theorymon]

This seems like a potentialy viable tactic on Lugia in Ubers. I'll have to test it out in the near future! Of course, with a way to beat Taunters such as Mewtwo.

 

[Legacy Raider]

I've seen and used speedshuffling effectively in UU - the ease with which you can get 3 layers of Spikes up in the tier makes it a very effective strategy. During the test period of Crobat and Shaymin, Eo ut Mortus used a very peculiar but highly effective Luxray set based around the concept:

Luxray @ Leftovers
Bold
252 HP / and can't remember the rest
- Thunderbolt
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Roar

With Luxray's relatively high speed it naturally outsped all the members of a standard stall team, and was very good at cycling through an opponents team and racking up entry hazard damage with this set. Luxray's defensive stats aren't terrible (80/79/79), and add onto that Intimidate, a lone weakness, and a bulky EV spread and it ended up being surprisingly hard to take out. It also served as a pretty excellent counter for Crobat and Honchkrow, two pokemon that were tearing up the tier at the time.


I used a speedshuffling Torterra on an UU team of mine - Torterra's helpful resists and very nice defensive stats made it a good choice:

Torterra @ Leftovers
Impish
252 HP / 216 Def / 40 Spe
- Wood Hammer
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Roar

56 base speed is a blessing, since with minimal investment it outsped most standard stall pokemon at the time. Torterra is immune to Thunder Wave and resists both Rock and Ground, so coming in on Regi's and Steelix was very easy. This set made Torterra one of my favourite Pokemon in UU because of its durability and the massive amount of damage it could cause to the opposing team over the course of the battle if I managed to get my entry hazards out.

 

[obi]

Considering you only have one Pokemon using Assist, I see no reason for you to not put two attacking moves on Persian. This gives you an extra way to finish off that last Pokemon. It would also be nice to try and stick moves like Counter, Mirror Coat, and Perish Song on some Pokemon. I know that Perish Song can be selected by Assist, but you can still switch out of it and come back in again. Perish Song is just so useful on teams like this.

Of course, only 32 uses of Roar / Whirlwind by Persian might not be enough, so adding a Purugly would be helpful.

 

[Snorlaxe]

Yes, I added a Purugly, and it helps, as Persian can sometimes get unlucky and pull a Spikes instead of a PhazingMove

 

[Raj]

Wow Light, you always have great ideas. I say always, but I guess you've been on a super long hiatus.. thought you disappeared shortly after CrushKing. Having tried the aforementioned Aerodactyl set I can vouch that this can be an effective strategy. The problems I've come across whilst using it is the inability to use Rest while at full health, therefore making your phaze go last and allowing time to recover or attack.

 

[Shizzle]

Was looking at the persian team on the first page, and the comments that went with it, and i thought, HELLO Scarf Magnezone. Takes BPs like a champ, Thunderbolt would be suffice thanks to the entry hazards you set up, but HP Fire would be ok aswell, then run that with explosion, although if persian assists explosion, then lol. But it could work.

 

[monkymeet]

And people called me crazy when I used a restalking/roar/whirlwind Aerodactyl :p

But most definitely, as Bologo said, he's something that requires the entire team to be built around him. He's not just something you can stick on a team and watch him win. However, being one of the fastest speedshufflers, he can tear up teams sometimes, except when Scizor comes and BPs him to death <__<

 

[Incarnation]

Making an Assistshuffling team like this is actually a lot harder than I imagined. For some reason, there are hardly any pokémon that can use more than 1 move that can't be selected by Assist and have at least one Phazing move to boot.
Using Smeargle is pretty much a must, and you have to choose between chance of using a Phazing move or viability aqgainst pokémon that could ruin your strategy: none of the pokémon that learn both Whirlwind and Roar can learn any useable non-Assistable move, so you have to go with only one phazing move instead, which makes selecting SR or Spikes more likely.

The team I have at the moment has a 75% chance of using Roar/Whirlwind through Assist, and well, firing off 30 moves with lower acc. than Stone Edge.. not exactly what you'd call failproof.

 

[capefeather]

I faced the OP's Latias yesterday, only with something else instead of an attack (can't remember what). The opponent can really play with such a thing once he/she figures out his/her dragons don't have to worry about getting KOed, and this strategy unfortunately gives a lot of time for figuring that out. You don't even NEED Taunt.

It would be interesting to face a full-blown and well-thought-out version of this strat, though.

 

[acinod]

How would you kill the last Pokemon remaining?

 

[Incarnation]

How would you kill the last Pokemon remaining?

Please, read the thread before posting. This has been asked many times.

For the assistshuffling team, you could use nonselectable moves like counter, mirror coat or destiny bond to finish off the last pokémon.
Obi mentioned Perish Song, which, though it is selectable through Assist, is ideal for finishing off the final pokémon.

 

[d2m]

<Any pokemon in the world> uses Taunt.

<Slightly fewer pokemon> uses Encore. (Breaks Sleep Talk and makes you struggle).

Team fails.

Any address to this?

Taunt prevents: Roar, Rest, Sleep Talk, Whirlwind, Spikes, Stealth Rock, and Assist, which is the entire premise of this team. Anyone without Counter/Mirror coat will Struggle to death and once your opponent catches on, he can easily predict his way around those (or power through, even a lead Aerodactyl will 6-0 this team).

Encore is much more rare, but anyone that Encores a Sleep Talk will cause your guy to Struggle, which also ruins the set.

 

[Incarnation]

Any address to this?

Taunt prevents: Roar, Rest, Sleep Talk, Whirlwind, Spikes, Stealth Rock, and Assist, which is the entire premise of this team. Anyone without Counter/Mirror coat will Struggle to death and once your opponent catches on, he can easily predict his way around those (or power through, even a lead Aerodactyl will 6-0 this team).

Encore is much more rare, but anyone that Encores a Sleep Talk will cause your guy to Struggle, which also ruins the set.

The whole idea of Assist- or SpeedShuffling is to move before the opposing pokémon can, continiously phasing it away before it can make a move. Seeing as we're working with thing like max speed scarf Persian or max speed Aerodactyl, there won't be much that gets the time to Taunt. It's true you could predict it and Taunt on the switch, but if the Assistshuffler is able to succesfully get in only once, the game is pretty much over.

Besides, this strategy has much bigger flaws than a weakness to Taunt: for example, in the case of Assistshuffling, if the opponent has either Abomasnow, Tyranitar, Hippowdon or Hippotas in his/her team, Persian will only have 16 turns max to live.

Assistshuffling is a bit like the FEAR sets. Undefeatable by some, perfectly countered by others, and really cheap. Still, I think it's worth trying out.

 

[Kuga]

Here's my take on an AssistShuffle team:

Skarmory @ Focus Sash
Keen Eye
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
252 HP | 4 Def | 252 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Whirlwind
- Roar

Persian @ Choice Scarf
Limber
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
252 HP | 4 Def | 252 spe
- Assist
- Roar
- Sleep Talk

Purugly @ Choice Scarf
Thick Fat
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
252 HP | 4 Def | 252 Spe
- Assist
- Roar
- Sleep Talk

Drapion @ Lum Berry
Battle Armor
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
252 HP | 252 Def | 4 SpDef
- Roar
- Whirlwind
- Toxic Spikes
- Thief

Blastoise @ Lum Berry
Torrent
Careful Nature (+SpDef, -SpAtk)
252 HP | 4 Def | 252 SpDef
- Counter
- Mirror Coat
- Roar
- Focus Punch

Swampert @ Lum Berry
Torrent
Impish Nature (+Def, -SpAtk)
252 HP | 252 Def | 4 SDef
- Counter
- Mirror Coat
- Roar
- Focus Punch


This team is rather straightforward. You open with Skarmory, who sets up SR and Spikes until knocked out or disabled. Once Skarm is done, you bring in Persian or Purugly (who sit at 541 and 532 speed, respectively) and start Assisting. There are ten moves that can be selected by either Assist user. Seven of these moves will phaze, while the other three will set up entry hazards. Toxic Spikes is obviously optional on Drapion, but I believe that the potential to set up poison damage is worth the 7% drop in shuffle success.

Anyways, because Assist can choose moves from fainted pokemon, you shouldn't worry about letting Skarm or Drapion bite the dust if it allows you to get another hazard in play or save an Assist user. Likewise, Blastoise or Swampert can be used to absorb priority hits (Scizor) and Counter back or manually phaze. Speaking of those two, they are your endgame lifeline.

Once you've worn down the enemy team or exhausted your supply of shufflers, the two water titans are your key to victory. Everyone's favorite turtle is equipped to take a special hit and fire back with Mirror Coat. Swampert takes care of a physical attack or two. Both also come with Focus Punch. This is mostly filler, but is potent if you predict a taunt or stat-upping move. Lum Berries can give you an extra turn to phaze or prevent horrible things like poison if you need to out-stall the last enemy pokemon.

I haven't tested this team at all, and it obviously might need some EV tweaking for specific situations. However, it looks usable in theory. Famous last words. :<