Also I don’t think saying “if rilla has no checks or counters in play it does good” is a cery fair argument. Pikachu left unchecked could probably sweep.
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Resource SS OU DLC2 Viability Ranking Thread [SEE: Page 105, Post 2618]
- Thread starter Finchinator
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You don't need a 4x resist to wall Rillaboom. There are loads of sturdy x2 resists in the metagame.
You can't really adjust coverage though. Rilla's lack of coverage is famously its biggest issue. It cannot adjust EV/item to beat volcarona or corviknight without conceding key match ups. And speaking of items, it really needs LO to be able to meet bench marks. It's actually rather unimpressive without a LO. As for luring, this applies to many pokemon.
Neither really hate the terrain though. Buzzwole often runs toxic and thus is barely bothered while Dragonite just DDs and blows through. And how is future sight and boom a classic? Real talk i have never once seen that. And buzz runs ice punch so it wouldn't need leech life.
Again this applies to a lot of pokemon. It also isn't that easy to lure them because they are not the only offensive grass checks on a team. TornT is even harder to pressure long term for rilla due to regenerator.
You could but then as you said, give up coverage which means either knock for flying types or superpower for steels. No matter which, you have major match ups you give up and it still gets really walled.
Points are taken on all comments regarding rillabooms limitations .
I just mean that it performs when it’s terrain isn’t contested, because when it’s terrain isn’t contested, it’s able to remain a relevant threat in the late game.
If the terrain is contested, then even a Tapu koko with 1% HP can get a “free” pivot on Rillaboom once it’s positioned against it. Lele is similar, but instead of a pivot, it gets to nuke something. A 50% buzzwole doesn’t have quite the same luxury.
I just mean that it performs when it’s terrain isn’t contested, because when it’s terrain isn’t contested, it’s able to remain a relevant threat in the late game.
If the terrain is contested, then even a Tapu koko with 1% HP can get a “free” pivot on Rillaboom once it’s positioned against it. Lele is similar, but instead of a pivot, it gets to nuke something. A 50% buzzwole doesn’t have quite the same luxury.
Rilla can run acrobatics to beat both buzzwole and volc, though has nothing for zapdos. Also means rilla has to give up either fighting coverage in either superpower or knock off.
If you can scout Zapdos' speed with for instance a Jolly Lando and notice it doesn't hit 270, you will often be able to 2KO is with CB Wood Hammer. Even if you don't outspeed it, you'll do 46.9 - 55.3% on the switch and they'll have to try to hit Hurricane/Heat Wave because roosting isn't safe. Zapdos is an okay check for Rilla but honestly not all that consistent due to the nature of Static and Hurricane's accuracy.
If Zapdos doesn't hir 270 it's most likely bold zapdos zapdos with varying levels of high defense.
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Zapdos in Grassy Terrain: 168-198 (43.7 - 51.5%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos in Grassy Terrain: 162-192 (42.1 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
And no matter what Rilla will not have often 2HH0 with wood hammer. This is of course discounting of course that CB Rilla is pretty dang bad these days due to how stacked every team is with answers, the set being so prediction reliant, and locking into the wrong move leaves it extremely exploitable.
Unless the rilla player is making some ballsy (and not recommended play) of assuming roost in staying in to attack again (which I have seen often, which often results in death for the rilla), they switch out. Especially since if the odds aren't in their favor it isn't worth rolling the static chance.
Zapdos is a great Rilla check because between hurricane and static it will more often than not either KO it or cripple it. And with LO sets, they're even more likely to just get forced out and thus give up a ton of momentum.
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I dislike the whole grassy seed / acrobatics argument just because Rillaboom has to sacrifice a MUCH more valuable item (CB or LO), and should just be taken at face value without trying to run those gimmicks, in my opinion. Overall, I would consider buzzwole and volcarona as checks to Rillaboom. Zapdos is an even better one.
Rillaboom just suffers from not having the stats ore moves it wants. If it had a little better bulk or attack, and stone edge, it could be really good. But as it stands being monograss is a huge let doen as it hits none if the meta besides slowbro and we all know how bad monograss is defensively.
In general, I think that rillaboom lacks the nuclear coverage of things like lele and volcanion, and is too slow in spite of glide to be effective speed control or sweep reliably. glide is a great button, but that is pretty much all rilla has that is unique, and it suffers from being outclassed by kartana which encourages counters to abide by kart standards, and rilla is weaker in both band and SD so stands little chance of breaking sturdy kart checks
Rilla doesnt have to run grassy seed though, thats the thing, I'm not saying its good, but you can still use LO if using acrobatics
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Acrobatics (55 BP) vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Buzzwole: 411-484 (98.3 - 115.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Acrobatics (55 BP) vs. 248 HP / 156 Def Volcarona: 382-452 (102.4 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Fair enough! I didn't know it could do so much damage even with an item on hand, even if it requires an SD. I would say it's still pretty inconsistent personally but these calcs are interesting
Tiering is done by ranking the power and usage of something in competitive play, which individual situations are a part of, but never warrants temporary value in specific interactions which are averaged across the board.
Rillaboom has several problems, but naming them individually isn't an effective way to summarize them. Rillaboom struggles with three things, momentum, exploitability, and opportunity cost. Momentum is the driver's seat of the game, when the player has their opponent on their back foot responding to the player. Rillaboom often drops momentum because it is exploitable due to its natural and consistent counterplay in the tier. There are variations of Rillaboom's sets and alternating coverage that Rillaboom has to lure its checks, though, most of the time Rillaboom still has to trade something valuable to run them which is opportunity cost. "While Pokemon X benefits item A, it loses out on the coverage or momentum that item B or C affords it."
In general Rillaboom tends to have a limited nature, which works to its disadvantage.
I don't feel Grassy Seed or Acrobatics are entirely gimmicks-- while they certainly have some opportunity cost, they are coverage options all the same and are intended to offer Rillaboom ways around its usual checks. These types of options certainly have some downsides and might not be preferable to the alternatives, but are still options nonetheless.
Time for some nominations, lots of this is pretty self explanatory and likely to happen:
C+ -> B-
This is quite self explainitory: eleki is able to rip and tear through a team after their ground is gone, however you are playing 5v6 until that point. That being said, you can capitalise off of the forced switch to their electric resist with a smart double or using the one opportunity that it will get to spin, or use it as a screen setter that is able to explode to maintain momentum for its team.
C -> C+/B-
Toxtricity is able to use 2 main sets: choice specs and shift gear. Shift gear exploits it’s insane strength by patching up its admittedly mediocre speed and choice specs boosts its already strongest-in-the-tier boomburst to nuclear levels.
UR -> C/C+
Although not having the strongest one in OU, exploud’s boomburst is still terrifying and what it loses from volt switch, speed, and offensive stabs gains in better bulk, coverage, and defensive typing - allowing it to break through grounds, steels, and tank one big hit per game.
B- -> C+
Reun has really been on the decline, between weavile and its underwhelming physical bulk combined with the fact that it’s only ever can afford to boost its special really does outweigh the benefits of regenerator and magic guard.
B -> B-
The metagame really just has a metric fuck tonne of answers to rillaboom right now. Between flying types such as zapdos and other, better terrain setters this thing is just as good, if not slightly worse, than tapu bulu in B-.
A -> A+
Moonblast scaryalso most steel types can easily get worn down during the course of a game and lured with focus blast or nature’s madness to nuke them
Now for the big one:
B -> A-
Nidoking is a mon where you can’t really build a core around breaking down common defensive checks since it only really has blissey and even that doesn’t work 100% of the time due to superpower or focus punch. The king’s standard set literally has 0 resistances and unlike volcanion it isn’t choice locked a majority of the time, sharing similar power (largely due to this lack of a choice lock) but also having ice coverage, leading to the big selling point of nidoking:
He has no switch ins.
Everything drops to his standard set and the very few things that don’t nidoking has coverage for. Slowking? Thunderbolt. Blissey? Superpower. Even mons that can come in against a predicted move, outspeed, and ko with a super effective move of their own have to fear a potential substitute on the switch; a prospect which also poses issues for bulky waters like slowking or washtom. This mon is a clear cut above everything in B and B+ which is why I nominate him to join his fellow special-attacker-that-lacks-switch-ins brother volcanion in A-.
C+ -> B-This is quite self explainitory: eleki is able to rip and tear through a team after their ground is gone, however you are playing 5v6 until that point. That being said, you can capitalise off of the forced switch to their electric resist with a smart double or using the one opportunity that it will get to spin, or use it as a screen setter that is able to explode to maintain momentum for its team.
C -> C+/B-Toxtricity is able to use 2 main sets: choice specs and shift gear. Shift gear exploits it’s insane strength by patching up its admittedly mediocre speed and choice specs boosts its already strongest-in-the-tier boomburst to nuclear levels.
UR -> C/C+Although not having the strongest one in OU, exploud’s boomburst is still terrifying and what it loses from volt switch, speed, and offensive stabs gains in better bulk, coverage, and defensive typing - allowing it to break through grounds, steels, and tank one big hit per game.
B- -> C+Reun has really been on the decline, between weavile and its underwhelming physical bulk combined with the fact that it’s only ever can afford to boost its special really does outweigh the benefits of regenerator and magic guard.
B -> B-The metagame really just has a metric fuck tonne of answers to rillaboom right now. Between flying types such as zapdos and other, better terrain setters this thing is just as good, if not slightly worse, than tapu bulu in B-.
A -> A+Moonblast scary
Now for the big one:
B -> A-Nidoking is a mon where you can’t really build a core around breaking down common defensive checks since it only really has blissey and even that doesn’t work 100% of the time due to superpower or focus punch. The king’s standard set literally has 0 resistances and unlike volcanion it isn’t choice locked a majority of the time, sharing similar power (largely due to this lack of a choice lock) but also having ice coverage, leading to the big selling point of nidoking:
He has no switch ins.
Everything drops to his standard set and the very few things that don’t nidoking has coverage for. Slowking? Thunderbolt. Blissey? Superpower. Even mons that can come in against a predicted move, outspeed, and ko with a super effective move of their own have to fear a potential substitute on the switch; a prospect which also poses issues for bulky waters like slowking or washtom. This mon is a clear cut above everything in B and B+ which is why I nominate him to join his fellow special-attacker-that-lacks-switch-ins brother volcanion in A-.
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this occupies the same space as other pinkacross sp atk normals - weirdly ok on offense if u can fit it, doubles as a nice shadow ball immunity. C+ might be stretching (since you're not as fat as you think you are) but certainly not the worst thing you could use in C.
Although not having the strongest one in OU, exploud’s boomburst is still terrifying and what it loses from volt switch, speed, and offensive stabs gains in better bulk, coverage, and defensive typing - allowing it to break through grounds, steels, and tank one big hit per game.
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i think this tracks, but my suspicion is that a lot of things that make Koko good and versatile now (i.e. ppl discovering Taunt NM Toxic etc.) are things that make it less versatile in the long run. running NM or Toxic over Dazzling Gleam can score you some brownie points against fat, and that's worth considering Koko as one of the good things now, until you realise you can't outspeed and check Weavile, or can't chip weakened Garchomp as you could before. specs is honestly not the worst you could run with it for that reason, because volt switch semi-handles Ferro anyway and the extra damage on Dazzling can clean a ground slightly faster than if you were relying on Toxic chip alone. Plus most ppl are tending to stay in with their Toxapex/Tornadus-T vs. regular Koko and someone needs to put the fear of God in those Regenerators again.
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Whilst the alternative sets can definitely surprise an opponent. Its the stock standard set that I think makes it S tier in the current meta and with current trends:
- thunderbolt
- dazzling gleam
- u turn / calm mind
- roost / taunt
This is mostly because the best koko checks are needed a lot throughout a typical match.
Ferrothorn is very easily worn down, and landorus is used extensively over the course of a battle in many cases. Mild knock off and hazard support is all you need to enable the end game Koko win-con.
There are less common anti-koko pivots, like galarian slowking, specially defensive hippodown, gastrodon, excadrill, etc. these are more exploitable than Ferrothorn and Landorus.
A Pokémon is as threatening as its ability to either:
1. Deal with its most common switchins, or;
2. Threaten to end the game if it’s switchins arent healthy enough
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Also, importantly, Koko has literally benefitted from almost every recent metagame trend:
- Weaviles surge to become OUs dominant threat
- STAB dark type attacks becoming the most common high powered spam move in top tier play
- STAB flying type attacks increase in popularity therefore leading to becoming the most difficult thing to find offensive switchins into. so there’s less competition for a team slot.
- the increased viability of tornadus, zapdos, toxapex and buzzwole in the post-kyurem meta, and the fact that there are not a lot of good offensive zapdos switchins to compete with
- The reduction in volcarona in the post-kyurem meta, and the reduced viability of 252+ SpD landorus, hippodown, gastrodon, running toxic. Meanwhile heatran gets dunked on in the end game.
- The increased viability of non-standard threats like physical dragapult.. due to defensive fairies becoming less prominent in the steel spam meta. This is very relevant due to the fact that fast tempo teams (usually offense or bulky offense) usually have no option to revenge a +1 dragapult, outside of priority. So having an offensive fairy switch in to dragon darts is a big deal
- the increase in the viability of rain teams, Koko can force out common rain threats, and outspeeds adamant barraskewda if it loses rain
- the overall increased viability of Pokémon that are sub 394 speed and/or are vulnerable to electric/fairy stabs.
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The metagame trends that aren’t good for Koko are creeping up tho:
- The slight increase in nidoking usage is possibly a major headache if your opponent can position it correctly. Nidoking forces out koko and is challenging to switch into.
- scarf Kartana gradually inching towards becoming its “standard” set.
- scarf lele becoming even more viable somehow, even tho steels are common and kyurem is gone, teams really want the certainty of having a scarfer that can revenge with 2x high power no-drawback stabs. I also think fairy as an offensive type is at an all-time high in viability. This is mostly because a lot of the top threats are easily revenged or OHKOd by fairy STAB.
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I cannot condone the use of calm mind tapu koko because it is too fragile to take advantage of the boosts and still gives a free switch in to spD lando-t, who is still the metagame’s most flexible Pokemon.
For a mon to be S tier - let alone S+ - it needs to be more effective than most of anything else in the metagame, widely splashable (which are the two areas that the current mons sitting in S tier truly shine), and it has to be flexible (which is lando-t’s forte) When you break it down koko isn’t really many of these things. It’s still amazing, don’t get me wrong, but calling it top 1 in the tier and the sole S+ tier is just not right in the slightest.
Tapu koko is probably the best dedicated offensive pivot right now, I’ll give you that, no matter how good the stabs and speed of dragapult are, it can’t shrug off glancing blows and its resistances are no where near as valuable as koko’s. However, tapu koko is pretty much relegated to fast paced offensive teams - if you can make it work on a fatter squad, good for you, but it isn't even close to the best way to take advantage of it’s strengths and you cannot deny that. Tapu koko is also only a good pivot, really. Its good qualities aren’t taken proper advantage of with cm, and it’s 95 base spA isn’t what you really want from a specs set (at least dragapult has strong stabs with its base 100 spA still not being the best). If you look at the mons in S- tier none of them are one note like koko is (apart from ferro who’s only variance is setting a different hazard in stealth rock slide over spikes): heatran can become a hazard setter, cripple opposing physical attackers, and wall opposing heatran with the same basic spD set, weavile can either have a band - which gives the choice to use low kick for a jump against steels or beat up to avoid contact effects like heatran’s flame body - or a different item like hdb and take advantage of swords dance. And then there is landorus-therian, whose spD set is ou’s most used Pokemon (and tapu koko’s best counter), whose scarf set brings surprise factor and effectiveness with it’s newfound speed, and whose swords dance set can function as a terrifying wallbreaker once set up and behind a sub, and there are definitely more sets I missed out on. Lando (though arguably less effective than the other 3 in the sub-tier below) is much more variable and compresses much more roles into the same set (ground type + ground immunity + hazard setter/defogger/choice user/swords dancer...). Now we return to tapu koko, who is the best offensive pivot in the tier, but is really outclassed in every other role it tries to go down, even if it isn’t getting new things discovered for it: the trade offs you have by using these moves are there and I don’t think tapu koko belongs above its current tier in A+, let along above landorus-therian in S+
bro april fools was 11 days ago, you are not funny.
anyways..
The C-ranks suck, I'll make some noms for them in no particular order.
C+ -> C-/UR
Mamoswine is an awful Pokemon that is somehow in the same rank as Pokemon with realistic niches like Celesteela, Kommo-O, M*nd*b*zz, and Tangrowth. In the current meta, Mamoswine is a potent breaker and a strong offensive threat... on paper. I think that is the part that people like to gloss over with this Pokemon. All of its excellent traits are on paper. In practice, this Pokemon rarely ever gets opportunities to come in and break due to its middling defensive stats and bad defensive typing making it hard pressed to find a good switch-in opportunities outside of a Tapu Koko Thunderbolt or something. This defensive incapability is exacerbated by its middling Speed tier. Also, once it is finally in, I often find it to be heavily reliant on Icicle Crash flinch chance to break, which is unreliable and inconsistent.
Sorry Mamoswine fans, it’s a cool mon for sure, it just is not made for the current OU metagame.
C+ -> C-
Primarina is in a weird spot right now, I feel like it’s initial rise from C- a while back was premature and didn’t really reflect on the true viability of this Pokemon as it did reflect on the opinions of a few users who claim it’s good. Primarina does have some neat upsides, namely Psychic so Toxapex isn’t nearly as annoying, and Flip Turn is potentially neat too I guess. Specs Primarina is actually scary sometimes due to these differentiating traits. It’s moreso that, outside of this, Tapu Fini is nearly always better, due to its better physical bulk and more utility. Even if Tapu Fini is somewhat worse than before, it’s still generally easier to fit on teams than Primarina.
C+ -> C
Cresselia pretty much is only seen on Trick Room, so I see no reason to not put it with its Trick Room buddies. Non Trick Room sets may technically work, but in most cases, TR is the only reason you see this mon. It should probably be with Alolawak in C, considering they are both staples of the playstyle.
C+ -> C-
Suicune is still broken. However, it just feels less consistent than ever, especially with heavy competition from other Calm Mind users like Tapu Fini. I don’t know, my opinions on this one are very brief.
C+ -> C
Two rain sweepers that don’t really exist as of late. Thundurus-T faces major competition with Zapdos as a rain abuser due to Zapdos having Hurricane, but you can still justify Thundurus-T due to its massive Special Attack stat and good coverage in Focus Blast. Kingdra is still a massive threat to offense under rain, but with the slight uptick in Kanto Slowking and Gastrodon, as well as the ubiquity of Ferrothorn, it finds it hard to consistently sweep right now. However, it is still quite nuclear, and once these threats are gone, very little can withstand it.
C+ -> C-
Pretty much this. Bulk Up Zarude is still scary.to C-
I've kinda done a 180 on Zarude recently, at first I thought it had potential, but I've realized that its really hard to consistently get results with and sorta has to be carried by the rest of the team because of that goddamn 4x weakness to the most annoying move in the game. I think it does still deserve ranking however because its really effective at breaking fat teams thanks to its signature move, which are becoming more prominent in the tier.
C -> UR
Azumarill sucks so bad, why is it even ranked LOL. It’s really slow and relies on Aqua Jet to do anything to offensive teams, which can easily revenge kill it with stuff like Rotom-W and Kartana. Belly Drum can technically work, but why do that when you can just use a consistent rain threat? I literally see no reason to use this outside of some niche hyper offense.
C- -> UR
Webs are bad, and Shuckle is not a very good setter of them personally. It just feels pretty exploitable as a lead, since it is so passive. I like Ribombee better as a Webs lead due to Stun Spore and the high Speed.
i might do some rises later
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Seconded on all counts. Fitting azu on teams is super hard and even then it barely does anything. Webs aren't viable and shuckle isn't even the best setter. Zarude C- imo, still has some unique stuff. Additionally, I would say Kommo-o to B-. It fulfills a variety of roles on multiple offensive teamstyles. It has a solid stat spread with a good defensive typing, immunity to shadow ball and weather ball, and multiple setup options. It can function as a rocker that can run coverage/status to deal with foggers and other rockers.bro april fools was 11 days ago, you are not funny.
anyways..
The C-ranks suck, I'll make some noms for them in no particular order.
C+ -> C-/UR
Mamoswine is an awful Pokemon that is somehow in the same rank as Pokemon with realistic niches like Celesteela, Kommo-O, M*nd*b*zz, and Tangrowth. In the current meta, Mamoswine is a potent breaker and a strong offensive threat... on paper. I think that is the part that people like to gloss over with this Pokemon. All of its excellent traits are on paper. In practice, this Pokemon rarely ever gets opportunities to come in and break due to its middling defensive stats and bad defensive typing making it hard pressed to find a good switch-in opportunities outside of a Tapu Koko Thunderbolt or something. This defensive incapability is exacerbated by its middling Speed tier. Also, once it is finally in, I often find it to be heavily reliant on Icicle Crash flinch chance to break, which is unreliable and inconsistent.
Sorry Mamoswine fans, it’s a cool mon for sure, it just is not made for the current OU metagame.
C+ -> C-
Primarina is in a weird spot right now, I feel like it’s initial rise from C- a while back was premature and didn’t really reflect on the true viability of this Pokemon as it did reflect on the opinions of a few users who claim it’s good. Primarina does have some neat upsides, namely Psychic so Toxapex isn’t nearly as annoying, and Flip Turn is potentially neat too I guess. Specs Primarina is actually scary sometimes due to these differentiating traits. It’s moreso that, outside of this, Tapu Fini is nearly always better, due to its better physical bulk and more utility. Even if Tapu Fini is somewhat worse than before, it’s still generally easier to fit on teams than Primarina.
C+ -> C/C-
Cresselia pretty much is only seen on Trick Room, so I see no reason to not put it with its Trick Room buddies. Non Trick Room sets may technically work, but in most cases, TR is the only reason you see this mon. It should probably be with Alolawak in C, considering they are both staples of the playstyle.
C+ -> C-
Suicune is still broken. However, it just feels less consistent than ever, especially with heavy competition from other Calm Mind users like Tapu Fini. I don’t know, my opinions on this one are very brief.
C+ -> C
Two rain sweepers that don’t really exist as of late. Thundurus-T faces major competition with Zapdos as a rain abuser due to Zapdos having Hurricane, but you can still justify Thundurus-T due to its massive Special Attack stat and good coverage in Focus Blast. Kingdra is still a massive threat to offense under rain, but with the slight uptick in Kanto Slowking and Gastrodon, as well as the ubiquity of Ferrothorn, it finds it hard to consistently sweep right now. However, it is still quite nuclear, and once these threats are gone, very little can withstand it.
C+ -> C-/UR
Pretty much this. Bulk Up Zarude is still scary.
C -> UR
Azumarill sucks so bad, why is it even ranked LOL. It’s really slow and relies on Aqua Jet to do anything to offensive teams, which can easily revenge kill it with stuff like Rotom-W and Kartana. Belly Drum can technically work, but why do that when you can just use a consistent rain threat? I literally see no reason to use this outside of some niche hyper offense.
C- -> UR
Webs are bad, and Shuckle is not a very good setter of them personally. It just feels pretty exploitable as a lead, since it is so passive. I like Ribombee better as a Webs lead due to Stun Spore and the high Speed.
i might do some rises later
I also feel like the C ranks are very bad and also like the idea of arranging them so here we go
Rises:
Kommo-o: C+ > B-
Genuienly no idea what this mon is doing here, whenever I see it I'm immediately terrified because there's really no way to tell what set it's gonna be. Can be Clangorous Soul, can be sub BD, can be some weird ass SD shit. Really threatening on a lot of HOs. Defensive Kommo-o also exists but I don't like that set as much due to being really bad against common defoggers and not really checking that much.
Regieleki: C+ > B-/B
Already has been talked about, Eleki is really good on Spikes teams to the point I think it could even rise to B, although B- is also fine. Even in games where there is one ground it remains consistent either through overwhelming said grounds or spinning for its teammates.
Sun: C > C+/B-
Sun is really underrated as a playstyle rn and ranking it so low is criminal. Yes, it does have its fair share of bad matchups that can be tricky to get around, but that's how most weathers are. Yes, you do have a natural weakness to Stealth Rocks but not one so glaring that it can't be fixed with heavy hazard control. And as hard as it can be, most of the time you get your breaker in, you're getting a kill because of how strong the abusers are.
Other rises I don't feel like elaborating on:
C+ > B-
C > C+
C > C+
C > C+ (this one I do want to elaborate on but i'd rather not start pages of discussion again, at least not before I bother to gather replays for it)
C- > C
Drops:
Cresselia: C+ > C-
No idea why this mon isn't grouped with the rest of TR, but it should go there. Same with Marowak-A. Crawdaunt and Glastrier work outside of TR really well which is why I wouldn't drop either.
Kingdra: C+ > C
Rain already has a million different abusers and it can be hard to justify this mon over other swimmers like Skewda or Toad, as it doesn't offer as much utility or power as the other 2. Thundy could also maybe drop but I feel like that mon is way more underexplored.
Azumarill: C > UR
I don't think Azumarill is bad, it's just so terribly outclassed by literally everything that I wouldn't ever use it on a serious team. Belly Drum can mayyybe do something under screens but you're so easily revenge killed because a lot of offensive mons resist Jet and you're so slow and there are so many other mons you could slot in your team that would probably be more useful overall. CB and Whirlpool also exist but they're way worse imo
Ribombee: C- > UR
I disagree with the notion that webs deserves to be Unranked; while its really bad, it's not horrible and you could make a team work... with Shuckle as the setter. Ribombee is frail, needs to run Focus Sash, and most importantly requires you to get another mon to setup Stealth Rocks instead of stacking up on abusers.
Other drops I don't feel like elaborating on:
C+ > C
C+ > C
C+ > C-
C+ > C-
Rises:
Kommo-o: C+ > B-Genuienly no idea what this mon is doing here, whenever I see it I'm immediately terrified because there's really no way to tell what set it's gonna be. Can be Clangorous Soul, can be sub BD, can be some weird ass SD shit. Really threatening on a lot of HOs. Defensive Kommo-o also exists but I don't like that set as much due to being really bad against common defoggers and not really checking that much.
Regieleki: C+ > B-/BAlready has been talked about, Eleki is really good on Spikes teams to the point I think it could even rise to B, although B- is also fine. Even in games where there is one ground it remains consistent either through overwhelming said grounds or spinning for its teammates.
Sun: C > C+/B-Sun is really underrated as a playstyle rn and ranking it so low is criminal. Yes, it does have its fair share of bad matchups that can be tricky to get around, but that's how most weathers are. Yes, you do have a natural weakness to Stealth Rocks but not one so glaring that it can't be fixed with heavy hazard control. And as hard as it can be, most of the time you get your breaker in, you're getting a kill because of how strong the abusers are.
Other rises I don't feel like elaborating on:
C+ > B- C > C+ C > C+ C > C+ (this one I do want to elaborate on but i'd rather not start pages of discussion again, at least not before I bother to gather replays for it) C- > CDrops:
Cresselia: C+ > C-No idea why this mon isn't grouped with the rest of TR, but it should go there. Same with Marowak-A. Crawdaunt and Glastrier work outside of TR really well which is why I wouldn't drop either.
Kingdra: C+ > CRain already has a million different abusers and it can be hard to justify this mon over other swimmers like Skewda or Toad, as it doesn't offer as much utility or power as the other 2. Thundy could also maybe drop but I feel like that mon is way more underexplored.
Azumarill: C > URI don't think Azumarill is bad, it's just so terribly outclassed by literally everything that I wouldn't ever use it on a serious team. Belly Drum can mayyybe do something under screens but you're so easily revenge killed because a lot of offensive mons resist Jet and you're so slow and there are so many other mons you could slot in your team that would probably be more useful overall. CB and Whirlpool also exist but they're way worse imo
Ribombee: C- > URI disagree with the notion that webs deserves to be Unranked; while its really bad, it's not horrible and you could make a team work... with Shuckle as the setter. Ribombee is frail, needs to run Focus Sash, and most importantly requires you to get another mon to setup Stealth Rocks instead of stacking up on abusers.
Other drops I don't feel like elaborating on:
C+ > C C+ > C C+ > C- C+ > C-
thank you, gilbert :( rest in peace
anyway to avoid a one liner im going to comment on some stuff
Mamo - dont unrank this. may not be the most used mon or anything but hits like a fucking truck. theres some extremely fun strategies you can utilize to try and get the most out of this. a few months ago i used it a ton high ladder with stuff like eject chomp and zone and it was a beast. teams dont really have good defensive answers to it right and mostly rely on out pressuring. theres definitely something for mamo in OU so im saying keep it ranked. dropping is a bit more fair but i still think its good enough for c+, one of those mons that everybody knows what it does so theres not a ton to say but people can have some strong opinions on it either way.
C+ -> C-/UR
C+ -> C
C+ -> C-/UR
C -> UR
C- -> UR
Thundy T - im fine with dropping kingdra but keep thundy t above it. Thundy T carves a better niche on rain than kingdra by a mile. its a decent alternative to the norm and has proven itself to be effective, while again not extremely effective, being a different electric immune is way better than what kingdra offers.
Zarude - dont know why you suggested unranking zarude when you acknowledged the bulk up set can be annoying to deal with. dont unrank this. fun niche, underrated mon with a decent typing. dont really need to say more than the bulk up zarude.
Azu - id prefer we keep this ranked, considering in games its one of those mons you have to keep at the back of your mind constantly to prevent setting up as it can be a gigantic headache if left unchecked. not great no, but still something. c- is probably fine.
Shuckle - no. despite boots being a meta changer and everything. webs still have some small niche in the metagame, personally id avoid unranking something that defines a playstyle that is viable in ou. ribombee is not better than shuckle. also over the past year shuckle has a higher tour winrate then a ton of stuff in the C tiers.
Dirkhann
Banned deucer.
I feel as though people think because C ranks aren't used by the large majority of people, they can post misinformed opinions about said mons. I feel like you have to at least use a mon consistently to post an informed opinion on it. Having used BD Azu a fair share of times the past month, I don't think it deserves to be UR, keep it where it is. It's not the most amazing thing sure, but it puts in work more than you'd think. You fail to realize you don't always have to BD, you can just click attacks and offensive teams have a hard time to switch into this thing. You can use its good bulk, typing and priority to revenge kill a lot of threats, that can be hard to deal with for your HO, while the threat of BD is still there. They go into their offensive check on the BD, you smack them with an attack. They go into their fatmon to tank your unboosted attack, then you BD and punish them. Easier said than done but you get the point, it forces a mindgame with the opponent. Also I don't know why you mention it being used on Rain when it's more of an HO pick. Btw it has a decent matchup vs Rain.
C -> UR
Azumarill sucks so bad, why is it even ranked LOL. It’s really slow and relies on Aqua Jet to do anything to offensive teams, which can easily revenge kill it with stuff like Rotom-W and Kartana. Belly Drum can technically work, but why do that when you can just use a consistent rain threat? I literally see no reason to use this outside of some niche hyper offense.
i might do some rises later
While Shuckle tends to be the better webs setter, I think bee's ability to pivot around (to the extent at which it stays alive, of course), be less passive, and outspeed quite a few good mons makes it C-. I also don't think that having to have another mon set up Stealth Rocks is a bad thing when Shuckle gets forced out of so so many situations anyway. Also, Azumarill should either stay at C or just be C- tbh, I agree with Dirkhann.I also feel like the C ranks are very bad and also like the idea of arranging them so here we go
Rises:
Genuienly no idea what this mon is doing here, whenever I see it I'm immediately terrified because there's really no way to tell what set it's gonna be. Can be Clangorous Soul, can be sub BD, can be some weird ass SD shit. Really threatening on a lot of HOs. Defensive Kommo-o also exists but I don't like that set as much due to being really bad against common defoggers and not really checking that much.
Already has been talked about, Eleki is really good on Spikes teams to the point I think it could even rise to B, although B- is also fine. Even in games where there is one ground it remains consistent either through overwhelming said grounds or spinning for its teammates.
Sun is really underrated as a playstyle rn and ranking it so low is criminal. Yes, it does have its fair share of bad matchups that can be tricky to get around, but that's how most weathers are. Yes, you do have a natural weakness to Stealth Rocks but not one so glaring that it can't be fixed with heavy hazard control. And as hard as it can be, most of the time you get your breaker in, you're getting a kill because of how strong the abusers are.
Other rises I don't feel like elaborating on:
Drops:
No idea why this mon isn't grouped with the rest of TR, but it should go there. Same with Marowak-A. Crawdaunt and Glastrier work outside of TR really well which is why I wouldn't drop either.
Rain already has a million different abusers and it can be hard to justify this mon over other swimmers like Skewda or Toad, as it doesn't offer as much utility or power as the other 2. Thundy could also maybe drop but I feel like that mon is way more underexplored.
I don't think Azumarill is bad, it's just so terribly outclassed by literally everything that I wouldn't ever use it on a serious team. Belly Drum can mayyybe do something under screens but you're so easily revenge killed because a lot of offensive mons resist Jet and you're so slow and there are so many other mons you could slot in your team that would probably be more useful overall. CB and Whirlpool also exist but they're way worse imo
I disagree with the notion that webs deserves to be Unranked; while its really bad, it's not horrible and you could make a team work... with Shuckle as the setter. Ribombee is frail, needs to run Focus Sash, and most importantly requires you to get another mon to setup Stealth Rocks instead of stacking up on abusers.
Other drops I don't feel like elaborating on:
Reply
I can see where your arguments come from, but I just find that Azumarill is nearly nonexistent in the OU metagame. It simply cannot find any consistent set-up opportunities, considering how widespread common counterplay to it is. Most offenses are packing one of Kartana, Volcanion, Rotom-W, a Tapu (mainly Lele and Bulu), etc. that can easily cut an otherwise scary sweep short very easily. Belly Drum’s extremely delicate nature means that you only really get one chance to sweep. An unboosted Azumarill is not doing much damage, and it can often be easily snuffed out by stuff like Ferrothorn and Toxapex, defensive staples that are pretty much the biggest reason as to why Azumarill runs Belly Drum in the first place - to break through them. Even versus offense, if you Belly Drum into the offensive check, you are generally losing. If the offensive threat is faster (which it will be the vast majority of the time) and does not automatically die to +6 Aqua Jet while OHKO-ing in return (which it most likely will - it is at 75% at most and most offensive checks are capable of doing more than that), it will most likely win out. These traits make Azumarill feel more like a match up fish that relies on the opponent making bad predictions to operate.
I also feel like a major reason why people are saying not to UR Azumarill is because people are afraid to put stuff from ranked to unranked instead of seeing how flawed and generally not worth it the Pokemon is. UR Pokemon can still have niches, it’s just that they aren’t prevalent enough to warrant a genuine spot on the viability ranking.
Edit - Also yeah I probably did overestimate how bad Zarude and Shuckle are lol, they are both fine in C-
I really want to agree here, but I can’ts much as I loved using Mamo, especially back in SuMo when it was an underrated beast, but the meta has changed to hinder Mamo up to a point where it doesn’t have a worthwhile niche. Band is heavily prediction reliant, LO chips it down too quickly, and Never-Melt Ice doesn’t have enough horsepower. Maybe a suicide lead set, but its a very replaceable role and most HO teams prefer rockers that can stick around for a bit longer like Chomp or Balloon Tran.
Exhibit A
Back in SuMo, Buzzwole was a fringe pick on stall and Slowbro was a decent but not common mon in the tier. Fast forward to SS and these two are now common meta staples. The “unwallable Mamo” isn’t so unwallable anymore. There are other not-so recent trends that also actively hurt its viability. Washtom became a staple again, and Ferro running more physD. Not to mention Corv still exists. It is super reliant on Icicle Crash hax to break through these threats and honestly there are better choices for offensive ground types (also Weav exists).
Exhibit B
Weavile has more checks but its so naturally fast and Knock is so spammable that it pressures teams and forces progress even if stuff like Fini are still in the field. Plus it can boost its atk with SD for lategame cleans. Nido is basically the unwallable ground breaker people think Mamo is. It only has three counters to it, Gastro and Slowking are forced to Recover, letting Nido’s teammate take advantage of the potentially free turn. Bliss dropped in usage. Plus Nido has some added bonuses that make it worth using over Mamo. It outspeeds Timid Volcanion with a Modest nature and outspeeds Modest Lele with a Timid nature. It also checks CM Clef and does ok checking the electrics bar Zap. SD Lando has even less defensive counters while having a much better defensive typing. SD Chomp checks Tran and Tini while being decently durable for a cleaner becuz of lefties. Mamo’s biggest problem is that it lacks defensive utility outside of its ground immunity. Volcanion, Ttar, Zap, and Melmetal are breakers with defensive niches giving them more opportunities to come in and makes them easily splashable. Even stuff like Blace and Craw bring unhinged raw power and some way to cripple its counters. Mamo just doesn’t hit hard enough nor does it have a defensive niche to be worth using in tournament play imo. Even its ground immunity means nothing since Koko 2HKOs with DGleam, while Zera OHKOs it with CC after rocks.
252 SpA Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 160-189 (44.3 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Zeraora Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 282-334 (78.1 - 92.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
SS has reached a point in its lifespan like the other gens before where offensive mons either have a good speed stat, defensive utility, or monsterous dmg output. Mamo had the latter, but this meta is not kind to it. I adore the swine but I have to admit it feel off hard this gen. C- at best.
Side note: R.I.P the goat Gilbert Gottfried
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