This is all true but as a sidenote, the game still displays the speed as it would with a scarf; it doesn't cancel the speed boost on paper, er rather, on screen.
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Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion (Usage stats in post #944)
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KamenOH
formerly DynamaxBestMeta
I realized I stuck two dragons on my team, and now I'm wondering what good pokemon gets rid of Fairies. The dragons in question are Dragapult and Flapple, but flapple is mainly there as a dragon dancer and coverage for seismitoad and hawlucha + other fighting types (thus needing d-dance). Dragapult is a sub/disable/hex/wisp set, and as such only really hits Guts pokemon, and psychic or ghost types, thus giving me the need for a fairy queller
There are a couple good options, Aegislash and Excadrill are my go to offensive options, although I suppose Toxtricity could work well too (haven't used it much). Aside from that most of the fairies in this meta aren't run defensively so overall strong offensive mons like Barraskewda, Gyarados, and Darmanitan could work as well. Defensively Corviknight and Toxapex are my go-to answers, although Ferrothorn and Seismitoad aren't bad answers if you scout for SE moves (especially Ferro with Mystical Fire being a fairly common move on most fairies).
Once Dynamax is banned, I really don't think there's going to be a huge issue with Moody. There's a decent amount of 'mons that will be able to use Roar/Whirlwind without worrying about Dynamax preventing its usage anymore. Additionally, Infiltrator, Haze, and moves unaffected by Sub can already pretty easily deal with the only threatening user of it (Glalie) if you're remotely prepared.
If the same situations occur with the Dynamax ban and all possible and reasonable means of getting rid of general boosts is considered nonviable, then maybe it could be suspected. Right now though, it's way too early to say that it's broken or even close to being as broken as it was with evasion.
If the same situations occur with the Dynamax ban and all possible and reasonable means of getting rid of general boosts is considered nonviable, then maybe it could be suspected. Right now though, it's way too early to say that it's broken or even close to being as broken as it was with evasion.
Zzzzz, is more than one line even necessary when an argument is fundamentally missing the point of the opposing arguments? Fine.
Nobody is saying that Moody is broken or that dealing with it isn't viable. Uncompetitive is not the same thing as broken. Something is broken if counterplay to it is limited to an extreme degree. Something is uncompetitive if it takes control of the game out of player's hands to an extreme degree and instead relies purely on RNG. This is uncompetitive because there is no skill involved in making a play with Moody. There's no prediction. There's no positioning. There's not really any reading your opponent's team and plays and considering what the best play to make is. It's just making the same play in every match-up and hoping to get lucky. Even if you actually end up getting lucky a relatively small minority of the time (which Estronic's post details isn't necessarily the case with Moody), it's still not a competitive strategy because it erases skill from being a determining factor in the match-ups where it does actually have an effect. This is part of the reason why I wouldn't be sad to see pure RNG-based items like Quick Claw and Brightpowder go even though nobody would call them broken, but that's a different can of worms and not really what's being discussed here.
I think this is a fair sentiment on paper, especially the Whirlwind/Roar point, but I don’t think this analysis is accurate.
What viable Pokemon can run Roar/Whirlwind? The first one that comes to mind is Hippowdon, which is weak to Freeze-Dry. I then think of Mandibuzz, who is also weak to Freeze-Dry. That means if Glalie gets lucky with with Sp. Attack boosts, both of them will either die or possibly get chipped enough for the Pokemon that comes in to pick them off. While there are others, like Arcanine, that aren’t affected by this, the true counterplay options are limited.
It’s also worth mentioning that the best Infiltrator user, Dragapult, is weak to Freeze-Drywill lose to a lucky Glalie if it gets Speed/Sp. Attack and the appropriate defense boosts.
In addition, Dynamax is currently a “Get out of Disable Free” card. It also offers a sudden power boost for Pokemon to break Glalie’s Substitute. This lets Pokemon like Galarian Darmanitan threaten out Glalie if it chooses to Dynamax and Glalie is unlucky with boosts.
Finally, Freeze-Dry has a chance to freeze. This isn’t exclusive to Glalie, but this in combination with the RNG of Moody adds another element of luck when stalling for turns for better boosts.
The meta is probably as unkind to Glalie as it’s going to get, and it’s still cheesing wins through pure luck. I was undecided when I initially posted here about Glalie, but after playing more with it and reading arguments in this thread, I am convinced that Moody is uncompetitive because every aspect of its usage revolves around luck for both the user and the opponent. In a competitive game, we should aim to reduce luck as much as we realistically can. Pokemon has a large amount of luck on its own that we can’t do anything about, but we can do something about Moody. Moody isn’t broken, but it is uncompetitive.
So someone showed this set to me and it looks very promising as a late-game cleanup sweeper:
Accelgor @ Throat Spray
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Bug Buzz
- Energy Ball
- Focus Blast
- Sludge Bomb
After using Bug Buzz once, you're now at +1 SpA and x2 Speed - Nothing can outspeed you short of Jolly Barra in the rain and +4 Polteageist, and you hit stuff decently hard. This set provides it with the most coverage (and well, it's really the only coverage it gets - its movepool is pretty barren), though you can opt to run Acid Spray over Sludge Bomb to lower any would be walls's special defense 2 stages, letting Accelgor break past them easier.
Water Shuriken is also an option for priority, but at its pitiful 15 BP per hit, even when it's SE it is not killing anything notable. Even Cinderace survives.
Certainly an interesting set, and arguably Accelgor's best one yet.
Accelgor @ Throat Spray
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Bug Buzz
- Energy Ball
- Focus Blast
- Sludge Bomb
After using Bug Buzz once, you're now at +1 SpA and x2 Speed - Nothing can outspeed you short of Jolly Barra in the rain and +4 Polteageist, and you hit stuff decently hard. This set provides it with the most coverage (and well, it's really the only coverage it gets - its movepool is pretty barren), though you can opt to run Acid Spray over Sludge Bomb to lower any would be walls's special defense 2 stages, letting Accelgor break past them easier.
Water Shuriken is also an option for priority, but at its pitiful 15 BP per hit, even when it's SE it is not killing anything notable. Even Cinderace survives.
Certainly an interesting set, and arguably Accelgor's best one yet.
I second that Moody is broken, uncompetitive, and super unhealthy.
Just look at this recent replay at how cancer it absolutely is: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1024235560
EDIT: And another crazy replay from today: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1024513273
EDIT2: Another: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1024545358
#InB4twentyMoreOfThese
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I know it's been dicussed to death, but yeah Moody ist the next thing to go. The lack of Evasion boosts didn't change its inherently uncompetetive nature which should be clear even without empirical evidence, but the fact that people actually got reqs or got to the high ladder in general with it says enough. Like many pointed out, the changes aren't that bad for Moody as the chances of getting the exact boost you need in a certain situation is higher now, no more useless Accuracy boosts. Counterplay is widely inconsistent and solely rely on the boosts, Phazing and Haze can be stopped by Protect + Disable and Glalie has even acces to Taunt, just saying, even though Disable is still overall better.
It's honestly baffling to me personally that it got unbanned. I am confident that it will go as soon as Dynamx is gone. Thanks.
It's honestly baffling to me personally that it got unbanned. I am confident that it will go as soon as Dynamx is gone. Thanks.
I notice most arguments about Moody are repeating that the strategy is luck based, not skill based. And there seems to be a lot of negativity regarding “luck”. But I want to remind everyone that the entire Pokémon battling mechanic is based on luck, and you’re never going to be able to remove it completely. A majority of commonly used moves have a certain accuracy, and each time you use Will-O-Wisp, Focus Blast, Thunder Wave, Play Rough etc, you’re hoping that you’re lucky enough for them to hit the opponent. The same with damage rolls. When you deal damage, you’re hoping you’re lucky enough to get a high enough damage roll to score that OHKO/2HKO. And it’s the same with secondary move effects, as every time you use Sludge Bomb, Ice Beam, Body Slam, Air Slash or Scald, you’re hoping you’re lucky enough to get that 10-30% chance of burn, poison, flinch, paralysis etc. And then you can argue that predicting switches, predicting enemy movesets/EV builds, predicting enemy abilities etc is also based on luck, not just skill. Is that G Darm going to have Zen Mode or Gorilla Tactics, is that Appletun going to die to my Ice Beam or is it going to live due to Thick Fat and then KO me? The list of examples of luck in this game goes on and on. You are never going to remove luck. So banning something from the game because it’s not fair if your opponent gets lucky with Moody boosts isn’t really a valid reason. That sounds more like jealousy than anything else.
It's not even that it's unfair. If your team gets 6-0'd by a substitute then idk what to tell you but to go back to teambuilder. Losing to every passive setup substitute sweeper in the tier because you don't want to run taunt or haze on one of your 6 fat mons or any one of the very good and very viable checks to it on your team, that's a you problem. Not a Moody problem.
Name all the phazers who are not blown back by at least a +2 freeze dry
Taunt doesn't prevent Moody either.
And many teams don't have room for phazers like HO
Taunt doesn't prevent moody but it can be used to stop sub/protect/etc.
Unless they disable you first because they're at +2 and outspeed you which they shouldn't.
You would have already taunted them preventing disable.
KamenOH
formerly DynamaxBestMeta
Why shouldn't they be able to, if the moody gives the boost? Unless you're running a scarfer whose natural speed is probably more than base 120, you won't outspeed.
Assuming you get the +2 in speed and not attack, this argument could go on forever with hypotheticals. The bottom line is simple, Moody is not a "reliable" way to set up, but it still exists. The fact is, if we start complaining about RNG mechanics that may be deemed "unfun" or "uncompetitive" without an actual reason to ban other than for those reasons, then we open the possibility of discussing the removal of more in the future. Thunderwave can cause a 4 turn paralysis or never once paralyze. Pokemon is littered with various RNG mechanics that simply may or may not happen.
Arcanine for a start.
But you also have a heap of Water and Ghost types who learn Haze that would do the trick. And Galarian Weezing straight up negates Moody AND has Haze.
I have a few general responses for things that may or may not be getting a bit lost with all the moody based discussion, which seems to be degenerating a bit.
I was testing an anti-lead Ninetails Choice Scarf set that had roar to phase out anything it couldn't deal with. I believe I already mentioned it a bit earlier in this thread. It's a fire type so it resists ice moves and hits them hard in return. In theory, you could use that set against Glalie. Though they might be able to Dynamax to counter that roar if they see it coming. If sub isn't up, a fire STAB would likely KO Glalie unless it has insane special defense or speed boosts already. It's not a perfect solution but it might help. In general, roar would be far more useful in this meta if Dynamax pokemon were phased out. But once it is banned, it will likely be a good answer to a lot of sub/stat boost builds.
Another decent deterrent to Ice types is Mach Punch Conkeldurr. Life Orb Lucario with Bullet Punch or Mach Punch may also be a decent option. Infiltrator Dragapult sets can also be run to hit Glalie with a fire move.
As an aside, I have used a pokemon with Future Sight to help disrupt all the substitute based strategies going around. It works pretty well against all the sets except the dark ones like Grimmsnarl. This also eases prediction since you can lure in dark and some steel types that come in to resist the hit. And if that doesn't happen, it makes sending out fighting types like Conkeldurr, Hawlucha, Falinks, and Kommo-o or poison types such as Gengar, Toxapex, and Toxtricity much more treacherous for the opponent.
Fairy types are weak to poison and steel, both offensively and defensively. Fairy type attacks do half damage to fire types, if you happen to find a fire type that is also a decent defensive switch in for whatever reason. While some other good suggestions were already given, I wanted to mention Gengar with Sludge Wave because that hits fairies hard. It should be noted that coverage moves also may work and can act as pseudo lures of sorts, like Poison Jab on my Machamp build. As long as it hits decently hard, it doesn't necesarrily have to be STAB to KO when it is super effective.
While I don't want to detract from your main point, I might have a few answers that aren't really being talked about.
I was testing an anti-lead Ninetails Choice Scarf set that had roar to phase out anything it couldn't deal with. I believe I already mentioned it a bit earlier in this thread. It's a fire type so it resists ice moves and hits them hard in return. In theory, you could use that set against Glalie. Though they might be able to Dynamax to counter that roar if they see it coming. If sub isn't up, a fire STAB would likely KO Glalie unless it has insane special defense or speed boosts already. It's not a perfect solution but it might help. In general, roar would be far more useful in this meta if Dynamax pokemon were phased out. But once it is banned, it will likely be a good answer to a lot of sub/stat boost builds.
Another decent deterrent to Ice types is Mach Punch Conkeldurr. Life Orb Lucario with Bullet Punch or Mach Punch may also be a decent option. Infiltrator Dragapult sets can also be run to hit Glalie with a fire move.
As an aside, I have used a pokemon with Future Sight to help disrupt all the substitute based strategies going around. It works pretty well against all the sets except the dark ones like Grimmsnarl. This also eases prediction since you can lure in dark and some steel types that come in to resist the hit. And if that doesn't happen, it makes sending out fighting types like Conkeldurr, Hawlucha, Falinks, and Kommo-o or poison types such as Gengar, Toxapex, and Toxtricity much more treacherous for the opponent.
I have been looking for more good special attackers than what is out there now. I must say that I really like this set. It can also hit both Seismitoad and Ferrothorn, which is nice. Although, it does get walled by Toxapex. Best thing it has to hit that is mud shot, which likely isn't worth running. Unless you used it as Dynamax cheese... Definitely worth looking into either way. Thank you for bringing it up.
Hello I got dragon danceHydreigon @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Crunch
- Dragon Rush / Fire Blast
- Iron Tail
This thing is niche but it has some merits over the other mons in the category. The boost in speed allows it to outspeed everything besides Ditto and scarf Dragapult. It OHKOs a lot of threats at +1 atk, although the lack of accuracy on Iron tail and Dragon rush / Fire blast almost forces you to use dynamax. Its lack of sub (3 attacks is kind of necessary, and sub without lefties is underwhelming) can be problematic, especially for ditto and t-wave grimmsnarl. When dynamaxed after a dd you can outspeed and OHKO almost everything in the tier. Semi-walled by Pex, Hippowdon, Corviknight if you don't use Fire blast ; countered by Ditto.
Moves like Will-O-Wisp and Focus Blast are used because they have strategic merits: Will-O-Wisp can cripple a physical attacker, while Focus Blast can provide crucial coverage. They are used in spite of their low accuracy because their accuracy isn't so low as to be a complete gamble. Inflicting an opponent with paralysis may cause the opponent to miss a turn 25% of the time, but the primary reason people use Thunder Wave and Glare is to lower an opponent's speed, and if they are harnessing full paralysis, it's in combination with a flinch chance and maybe Serene Grace to push the odds up into reliable levels.
Speaking of flinch chances, moves like Iron Head and Scald have low chances of inflicting their secondary effect, but the effect is just that. Secondary. Unless you're Jirachi, you don't run Iron Head for the flinch chance, but rather for the damage. Scald seems to bely this with Pokemon like Toxapex, who run Scald mostly for the burn chance. However, consider that Toxapex is very likely to survive long enough to use Scald many times throughout a match, pushing the chance for an eventual burn into reliable levels. It's also worth considering that on purely defensive Pokemon, Scald is much less attractive in the presence of Will-O-Wisp, as evidenced by Galarian Corsola.
Clearly, it's impossible to eliminate all luck. Damage rolls and crits are built into the very fabric of the game, and banning everything but moves with perfect accuracy and no secondary effects would obviously be absurd. So the question is not "is there luck present?" but rather "is there value in this" which is determined on a case by case basis. The chance for full paralysis is unfortunate, but we deal with it because paralysis has competitive value because the speed drop allow for interesting strategy, like supporting slow attackers, and counterplay, like switching in an already slow Pokemon to absorb the paralysis. OHKO moves may seem like more extreme versions of Focus Blast, but they're banned because outside of highly specific scenarios like Sturdy and type immunity, there is no counterplay beyond switching in something that can deal with the OHKO user and pray the move doesn't connect. Zap Cannon is similarly unreliable, but is isn't banned because it shares the same interesting counterplay of Thunder Wave. It's just that Zap Cannon is so unreliable that almost no one bothers using it, because the reward isn't worth the risk.
In its current state, Moody isn't broken just because it's random. I have no strong feelings about Moody either way, but the most of the people arguing for its re-ban are doing so because it doesn't have interesting counterplay. Glaile's gameplan revolves around spamming Protect, Substitute, and Disable in order to stall for favorable boosts. Counterplay obviously does exist, but the question of whether or not that counterplay is too restrictive or interesting is up for debate, and most people here seem to be of the opinion that it is. It has nothing to do with jealousy (really not sure where you pulled that from).
I've come to respect you in recent times, so please don't take this explanation, nor my continued confusion over why you even care about Smogon's decisions, as demeaning. I just want to explain why the situation is more complicated than you're suggesting.
They can easily use Protect to block your Taunt, then shut it down with Disable.
How come every time someone brings up how a mechanic is uncompetitive someone always pulls the imperfect accuracy/random damage rolls card as these things are somehow comparable with what's being discussed, when in reality you're comparing apples to oranges? There isn't anything we can do about moves with imperfect accuracy save for banning each and every one of them, which a) wouldn't be feasible and b) would have serious negative impacts on the metagame that outweigh any positive impact on competitiveness. There isn't anything we can do about damage rolls or moves with secondary effects at all, full stop. Trust me, if I could snap my fingers and magically rework all these mechanics into something that removes luck from the equation, I absolutely would. In a truly competitive game, skill decides games, not luck (which is part of the reason why Pokemon is actually a shit competitive game, but I digress).
We can do something about Moody. It's one single ability and it has no competitive use whatsoever outside of luck-based cheese strategies. The overall health of the metagame would not be affected negatively at all if it was kept banned. I see utterly no upside for unbanning it. It serves only to add yet another luck-based factor to matches with zero strategic value.
As for prediction being based on luck... Not really? If that were the case, Pokemon would basically just be a coin flip and good players wouldn't exist. Where does player skill fit into your view of how this game works, and if it doesn't, why do experienced players consistently outperform less experienced players in most scenarios? I don't regard this game as a highly competitive game, and a bad player always at least has the chance of beating a good player just through luck alone, but player skill and knowledge of the metagame is undeniably a factor somewhere in the equation. I'm curious where you think it is.
KamenOH
formerly DynamaxBestMeta
Going off the Dragon Dance, I have a different one that resists Fisheous Rend 4x over.
Hydreigon @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Crunch
- Dragon Rush / Fire Blast
- Iron Tail
This thing is niche but it has some merits over the other mons in the category. The boost in speed allows it to outspeed everything besides Ditto and scarf Dragapult. It OHKOs a lot of threats at +1 atk, although the lack of accuracy on Iron tail and Dragon rush / Fire blast almost forces you to use dynamax. Its lack of sub (3 attacks is kind of necessary, and sub without lefties is underwhelming) can be problematic, especially for ditto and t-wave grimmsnarl. When dynamaxed after a dd you can outspeed and OHKO almost everything in the tier. Semi-walled by Pex, Hippowdon, Corviknight if you don't use Fire blast ; countered by Ditto.
Flapple
Ability: Hustle
Happiness: 160
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant/Jolly Nature
- Grav Apple
- Dragon Dance
- (Filler)
- Acrobatics
After 2 DD, you hit 524 speed, which is faster than everything bar high natural speed scarfers, obviously. However, at 2 DD, you also have 2x attack (638), not even including Hustle's 1.5x boost, making that 957 attack, in just two turns. If you hit the 0.8x hustle acc reduction with any move, you won't be seeing the opponent again that game. Now, Acrobatics makes a potential hustle workaround not possible, but if you so choose to replace acro with some other move, you will be able to use the Wide Lens, which makes your physical attacks now have 0.88 acc, which is much better than 0.8. Grav Apple only stacks defense drops on the opponent, and even if they resist, they won't last long.
Just beware of the ice types
Said water types are weak to Freeze Dry so is Hippowdon and GCorsola is still worn down if Glalie is behind a sub (idt Strength Sap hits through a sub). So that narrows it to Arcanine and GCor. What if we don't want to be forced to include at least one in our team? What if they're a momentum drain to our intended playstyle, say, GCor on BO.
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flapple in Rain: 240-282 (85.4 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
A 4x resist that still gets 2hko's and has a chance to get OHKO'd in rain.
Not a sturdy 4x resist for sure.
And why do you have no item, it's not worth it to get Acrobatics double power, run something like Maranga Berry or Sash. And you definitely aren't getting off two free DD's with that abysmal bulk. And plus, 524 speed at +2 is pretty weak, at +1 you hit 393 which means you're naturally outspeed by base 130's even w/out a scarf. I know ttar uses DD and it's even slower but ttar has the bulk and more power plus sandstorm chip to pull it off. Also, it has a much better movepool unlike Flapple who is basically left with 1 set only, which is DD.
tl;dr let flapple rot in its apple tree, it's not worth it to use it
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