Starmie (Full Revamp) [QC 3/3] (GP 2/2)

[Harsha]

I understand your sentiments there. However, I still can't agree that a slash on the Specs set would be enough because they play differently. You even outline some of their differences in what you just said. The thing is, you would be completely screwed against a boosted Gyarados if you were running anything else (bar Rotom-W and Quagsire and stuff like that), including the Specs set, wouldn't you? And I guess Hyper Offense was a bad example, that's my fault.

Still, you're screwed regardless if Lucario has an SD, and you have no dedicated walls. Heck, even Skarmory is OHKOed by +2 Lucario after SR. And Starmie never goes against Reuniclus; that's what other slots are for. You make a good point, regardless of that, though.

 

[danilo]

Of course they play differently. They're different items! They both have their advantages and disadvantages. But slashing on Choice Scarf and talking about the advantages and disadvantages of each set in the AC is fine.

Lets look at an example similar to this: Choice Band Scizor vs Choice Scarf Scizor. They're both running the same moves(with the exception of Iron Head), but they have completely different EV spreads and play differently. Choice Band Scizor is mostly used for threatening out mons with U-turn, and then sweeping late game with Bullet Punch. Scarf Scizor is pretty much always spamming U-turn, and it can beat some things that Scizor is not able to beat like Celebi, Expert Belt Latios, Latias, etc. ScarfZor can revenge kill Heatran, Lucario and ScarfTar, all things that regular Scizor can not. The Band vs Scarf Scizor sets play completely different from one another. These sets don't play too similarly (although they do have some differences) to deserve their own sets.

 

[Harsha]

Scizor has separate Scarf and Band analyses...

Oh, I see what you're saying. It was worded oddly. But if I may, when will Specs Starmie ever dream of switching into a boosted sweeper? And when will this thing take down Blissey? I can't see how Scizor plays differently enough, but this doesn't.

 

[Sayonara]

This set is pretty cool. You should add hazard support in the "Teammates & Counters" section. Starmie doesn't hit that hard, so getting KOs thanks to the additional damage provided by hazards would be very helpful for this set.

 

[Harsha]

Yea, that's a good idea. Thanks for that!

 

[pie cream]

maybe mention wish support / rapin spin support in AC sice you will be swiching a lot? Abomosnow might be worth a mention in AC as a check since it can swich into everything execpt trick / hp fire and can change the whether if rain is up.

 

[danilo]

Oh, I see what you're saying. It was worded oddly. But if I may, when will Specs Starmie ever dream of switching into a boosted sweeper? And when will this thing take down Blissey?

The only time this Starmie switches into a boosting sweeper is if the sweeper is using Dragon Dance. The most common Dragon Dance sweeper is Dragonite. Dragonite can just go for an e-speed to do a ton of damage to both the scarf and spec set, before the sets take it out with an ice beam. For every other sweeper, Starmie just gets killed. No need to go through all the examples of where both of these Starmie sets switch into a set-up sweeper and just die, because that'd take forever. Sorry about wording my stuff oddly. Not in the greatest mental state atm.

No need to argue anymore, as there's already a bunch of cases for why this set should or shouldn't be on-site. now it's up to QC

 

[alexwolf]

This set is ok, and can fit on certain teams, but is generally outclassed by most Scarfers. It has some things it can do, that others doesn't, while also having a bit of a surprise factor, but most of the times there are superior choices. Latios, Terakion and Landorus are better Scarfers most of the time. They all have big atacking stats, while also having secondary stabs or U-turn.

The main problem with Starmie is that while it can certainly revenge kill many threats with its speed and coverage, it becomes huge set-up bait the next turn. Starmie will be revenge killing with Ice Beam and Tbolt most of the times, so after you kill something there are a multitude of pokes that can set-up on you, which HO teams do not appreciate. All this because Starmie will be using unstabbed attack coming from a 100 SpA stat.

A mention in the AC of the Specs set would be enough imo.

Also most of the best boosters out there, cannot be taken down from ScarfMie due to numerous reasons... +1 Dragonite does 64.5 - 75.95% to Starmie with ES, which means that Starmie must be at full health for all the match to RK Dragonite. This means that you can't bring in Starmie on weak attacks, such as f.e. Gliscor's EQ or Heatran's Lava Plume, because then it will be unable to do it's job.

Let's see some more...
Ice Beam against DD Haxorus: 76.82 - 90.72%. Unable to ohko most of the times after SR.
Hydro Pump vs +1 offenisve Volcarona : 67.52 - 79.74%, and vs Bulky Volcarona: 56.14 - 66.31%.
Lucario +2 ES against Starmie: 96.94 - 114.12%
Ice Beam vs 4 HP Latios: 52.98 - 62.91%
Hydro Pump vs Offensive SD Scizor: 69.39 - 82.2%

So the Scarfmie user has to weaken a little many of the threats it is supposed to RK and be at almost full health, at the same time during the whole match. Seems very situational at me.

Sry if my post seems hostile,it really isn't, and i know this set's value since i have used it many times in the past, but honestly i don't think it deserves a separate analysis.

 

[MaestroXXVI]

Honestly, all of Starmie's sets are so similar, and its movepool is so targeted, that imo if you removed Starmie's analyses and replaced them with a list of her viable moves, then the only thing Smogon would lose would be a few thousand extraneous words. Literally, pick any 4 depending on your team's needs and you have a viable Starmie set:

Surf/Hydro Pump
Thunderbolt(/Thunder)
Ice Beam(/Blizzard)
HP Fire/HP Grass
Rapid Spin
Recover

OO: Psychic, Rain Dance, Thunder Wave, Trick (if choiced)

4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe Timid
Life Orb/Leftovers(/Specs/Scarf)
Natural Cure

Maybe a paragraph total explaining the merits of each item. Bam, done. Starmie is so mix-and-match that trying to box her up into distinct sets almost seems ridiculous!

(Hence my doubts over whether Rain Spinner Starmie is worth a spot on-site - its just a logical extension of what Starmie naturally is...)

 

[Harsha]

Starmie (Full Revamp) [QC 0/3]

Go to post 1 for the revamp!

 

[Harsha]

Doing a Starmie revamp, so what should I do with this thread? Should a mod merge it or something? Thanks in advance!

 

[AccidentalGreed]

Hi harsha.

It's been merged, so c+p your revamp in the OP.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

Mention a bulky EV spread in the AC of the Rapid Spin set. 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe was actually the default spread until QC decided to change it.

 

[Pocket]

My usual nitpicks:

Overview

amazing Speed, decent SpAp

• To add on to that, mention how those 2 qualities allow Starmie to be one of the best non-choiced revenge killers out there.

Rapid Spin

• Mention Expert Belt here, since it is actually quite effective thanks to Starmie's impeccable coverage. It provides an offensive punch necessary to 2HKO mons like Tyranitar, Celebi, and Jellicent without the 10% loss of health.

Breaks down Jellicent and Gengar due to Speed and coverage

• Note that Starmie actually falls short in sealing a 2HKO with Thunderbolt if it chooses Leftovers

Alternate EVs can be used to out-speed Tornadus (32 HP / 252 SpA / 224 Spe) but loses to opposing Starmie

• meh, drop this alternative EV spread for the one suggested by Super Mario Bro (252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe).
• Mention Scald as a possible option for such defensive sets.

Ferrothorn laughs at this set

• Mention Magnezone as a helpful partner to remove Ferrothorn

Tyranitar, Blissey, Chansey, and stuff like that don't worry about Starmie's attacking prowess. The former KOs Starmie

• Make sure to note that LO Starmie 2HKOs Tyranitar with Hydro Pump.
• Mention Fighting-types, such as Breloom, Virizion, Toxicroak, and Terrakion are useful for breaking such special walls
• Mention offensive sweepers which appreciates Starmie's Rapid Spin utility, such as Dragonite, Cloyster, Volcarona, and Tornadus.

Choice Specs

• de-slash Modest; the ability 2HKO Blissey pales in comparison to all the mons that it would be unable to check (anything above base Speed 100)

Psyshock is amazing as it 2HKOs Blissey with Modest and SR support

• Move this statement into AC; mention Psyshock's ability to OHKO Virizion and 2HKO specially defensive Gastrodon instead

• Entry hazards support is actually worth an AC mention here, since it would really hamper Chansey / Blissey / Ferrothorn's ability to wall this set
• Also AC mention Rain support from Politoed, as it significantly powers its Hydro Pump and allows Starmie to use Thunder, too.
• Mention that this set is quite vulnerable to Jellicent, due to Water Absorb and being able to Recover off damage from STAB Psyshock, too.
• Celebi and Latias are also annoying, as they resist its dual STAB - Pokemon like Scizor or Jirachi are useful to harass these mons.
• Prone to Pursuit Trappers, such as Tyranitar and Scizor

Choice Scarf - We're still deciding on this, but here are some comments

• Under set comments, emphasize the loss of power from Life Orb in exchange for expanding its revenge-killing capabilities, such as revenging Dragonite (locked into Outrage), Gyarados, and Cloyster at +2, as well as Modest Chlorophyll Venusaur. This should be stressed above everything else.

A main selling point is the ability to beat down +1 threats

• Apparently, it also checks some +2 threats, as well

Psyshock and Psychic can be used to gain additional STAB and hit hard, but they provide some coverage issues. One can use Psychic if Conkeldurr is a problem, while Psyshock hits other things like CM Virizion and Gengar harder

• Gengar dies to either Psychic-type moves, so don't lump it with Psyshock.

• AC Mention that choice-locked Starmie is prone to being Pursuit-trapped

Other Options

• Remove Power Gem, lol.
• Mention Rain Dance for some weather control
• Blizzard on Hail Teams
• Reflect Type to potentially escape from Pursuit
• Gravity to aid potentially aid Ground-type / Spike-stacking teams, with the ability to make use of its less accurate yet powerful options, such as Hydro Pump, Thunder, and Blizzard

Checks and Counters

• Tyranitar is a check at best, since it is also 2HKOed by LO / Expert Belt Hydro Pump (latter with SR).
• Blissey and Chansey can also counter Specs Starmie, but fears Trick
• Mention Gastrodon, since it only fears Grass Knot / HP Grass boosted by either Expert Belt or Life Orb
• Specially defensive Celebi can sponge even Ice Beams from LO Starmie
• Scarf Rotom-W can stomache hits from Starmie and initiate its Volt Switch shenanigans.
• For checks, mention Scarf Tyranitar, Scarf Scizor, CB Scizor outside of Rain, and Jolteon.
• NP Celebi and Virizion can take a LO Hydro Pump outside of Rain and threaten Starmie out.
• Latias can set up CMs on Starmie without Leftovers

-----------------------------------------------------------

Again we're still thinking over the Scarf set.

 

[alexwolf]

What about LO + 3 attacks with Recover?

 

[MaestroXXVI]

I'd call the first set 'standard', deslash recover, and say that recover can replace any option (which it can, honestly)

 

[Harsha]

As I said, Life Orb and Rapid Spin were merged because Rapid Spin had a Life Orb as a choice anyways. As for the name, I'll let QC decide. I thought that "Rapid Spin" was more appealing, but I can see why "Standard" would make sense. Some help from QC in this area would be cool.

And thanks Pocket and AG!

EDIT: Done with the skeleton.

 

[alexwolf]

As I said, Life Orb and Rapid Spin were merged because Rapid Spin had a Life Orb as a choice anyways. As for the name, I'll let QC decide. I thought that "Rapid Spin" was more appealing, but I can see why "Standard" would make sense. Some help from QC in this area would be cool.

And thanks Pocket and AG!

You say that they are merged, but the set has has Rapid Spin as a mandatory move, so there is no room for 3 attacks + Recover, which is a very usefull poke and plays differently because it doesn't have the purpose to spin.

It deals good amounts of damage mid-game, while also revenge killing dangerous threats, and cleans late game very nicely, being sturdy enough with Recover to survive 'till late game.

 

[danilo]

Agreeing with Alex Wolf. The LO 3 Attacks with Recover set is really really good. I think that it deserves its own set...

 

[Chillarmy]

You say that they are merged, but the set has has Rapid Spin as a mandatory move, so there is no room for 3 attacks + Recover, which is a very usefull poke and plays differently because it doesn't have the purpose to spin.

It deals good amounts of damage mid-game, while also revenge killing dangerous threats, and cleans late game very nicely, being sturdy enough with Recover to survive 'till late game.

I have to agree with alexwolf. LO + 3 attacks ("Offensive" Starmie) is far too common to not have a mention. Honestly, though, I don't like the idea of giving offensive Starmie its own set. IMO, it would be much better to mention that and how Starmie can play a more offensive role while simultaneously supporting its team with Rapid Spin. A quick mention such as that could lead into "If one wishes to use Starmie in a more offensive manner, then Rapid Spin can be dropped for Recover, in order to preserve Starmie's life span" or something to that effect. It's not rare for the comments of a set to suggest foregoing the main move, in order for the Pokemon in question to perform a similar, but largely different task than it did initially. Whenever I use more offensive variants of Starmie, my main goal is to remove Pokemon that can take advantage of a potentially free turn -- courtesy of Rapid Spin -- by tossing out one of Starmie's powerful attacks. Rotom-W, for example, has no problem switching in on Rapid Spin and Volt Switching away to a teammate equipped with entry hazards. An LO Hydro Pump can 2HKO offensive Rotom-W sets after Stealth Rock damage, and puts a large dent in defensive variants, ensuring that it cannot switch in more than once, without risking being KOed. Jellicent is also another example of a Pokemon that Starmie can lure out by simply attacking instead of spinning. Starmie is also capable of revenge killing without the need of Recover, due to its wonderfully useful Speed stat and great coverage.

tl;dr - There not much of point in giving GPers more work to do

meh, drop this alternative EV spread for the one suggested by Super Mario Bro (252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe)

Do the extra HP EVs really come in handy? I've always used 112 HP / 180 Def / 216 Spd on my bulkier Starmie sets. The extra Defense gives Starmie a much easier time switching in against physical attacks, particularly Terrakion's Close Combat and Gliscor's Earthquake. In addition, Starmie can, while switching out, now survive Choice Band Scizor's Pursuit, and laughs at specially defensive Tyranitar's Pursuit. As a bonus, 289 HP is a Leftovers number, which is always. There aren't many notable KOs that Starmie evades with the extra investment into HP, anyway. Weak Scalds, Surfs, and other resisted special attacks are normally accompanied by an attack that will surely beat Starmie (Shadow Ball, Hidden Power, Thunderbolt, or Toxic + Protect; also, let's not forget about Gastrodon and how he lost the fucks he could've given about Starmie in Gen V!).

 

[Harsha]

I have to agree with alexwolf. LO + 3 attacks ("Offensive" Starmie) is far too common to not have a mention. Honestly, though, I don't like the idea of giving offensive Starmie its own set. IMO, it would be much better to mention that and how Starmie can play a more offensive role while simultaneously supporting its team with Rapid Spin. A quick mention such as that could lead into "If one wishes to use Starmie in a more offensive manner, then Rapid Spin can be dropped for Recover, in order to preserve Starmie's life span" or something to that effect. It's not rare for the comments of a set to suggest foregoing the main move, in order for the Pokemon in question to perform a similar, but largely different task than it did initially. Whenever I use more offensive variants of Starmie, my main goal is to remove Pokemon that can take advantage of a potentially free turn -- courtesy of Rapid Spin -- by tossing out one of Starmie's powerful attacks. Rotom-W, for example, has no problem switching in on Rapid Spin and Volt Switching away to a teammate equipped with entry hazards. An LO Hydro Pump can 2HKO offensive Rotom-W sets after Stealth Rock damage, and puts a large dent in defensive variants, ensuring that it cannot switch in more than once, without risking being KOed. Jellicent is also another example of a Pokemon that Starmie can lure out by simply attacking instead of spinning. Starmie is also capable of revenge killing without the need of Recover, due to its wonderfully useful Speed stat and great coverage.

Yea, this is what I was going to do. An explanation in the Spin set should suffice because they are the same set minus Rapid Spin, but it additionally bluffs a spin set to lure out spin-blockers.

 

[danilo]

Yea, this is what I was going to do. An explanation in the Spin set should suffice because they are the same set minus Rapid Spin, but it additionally bluffs a spin set to lure out spin-blockers.

They're not even close to the same set.

1. one focuses on supporting the team, while the other focuses on sweeping and hitting hard
2. the life orb set has just enough power to revenge kill things like Dragonite and Haxorus, while the other set doesnt have enough power
3. That's about it haha

 

[Harsha]

Look at the analysis. They both run Life Orb! It's slashed on the spin set! It's the same amount of power. Pocket and I agreed that we'd lump them into one set and explain the LO + 3 Attacks set in the analysis.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

Scarfmie is good, guys. Spamming fast rain Surfs is just great late game against weakened offensive teams, and it resists most priority moves. Unlike Choice specs, it can also function as a SUPER fast revenge killer.

It's also good against stall teams, since it can cripple Blissey or *insert annoying wall here* with Trick to make breaking their core much easier. It's just a good toolbox Pokemon and at least deserves a slash with Choice Specs on a "Choice" set...or a new analysis; whatever QC decides to do.

 

[Harsha]

Thanks man, that's exactly what I wanted to say. It's just a good all-around Pokemon to cripple opponents' walls so sweeps are easier, and it functions as an amazing revenge-killer--literally a revenge-killer in the strictest sense--as well.