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Starmie (Full Revamp)+
- Thread starter cim
- Start date
I'd advise you to read several of my posts on the matter of Counter Star. Unless Deoxys-S is Uber (which by the way if you read most of my posts you'd see I understood was a possibility), Starmie can't do the role any better than Deoxys can, which has higher durability and Speed.
Most importantly, Starmie cannot counter any form of Salamence, as it is either OHKOed by a Dragon Dance Outrage or OHKOed by a LO Draco Meteor. Thus, you can only really counter Gyarados and Infernape. Once you get to that point though there's no distinction between the Rapid Spin set and the Counter set as you don't need Ice Beam since you can't use it for what you intend to counter with it. So, CounterStar is completely redundant.
You really can't just go "i demand counterstar" when there's such a strong case against it, which I've stated in multiple threads, and not back up your point at all. To be honest it's kind of insulting.
Heh, well, I actually did back it up in the previous analysis updates before it was closed.
What I said was:
"I don't think deoxys-s completely outclasses starmie, I mean deoxys-s can't even remotely handle heatran, superpower doesn't even ohko. But for arguments sake, let's say it does. There should still be a counterstar set. Just because deoxys-s does it better doesn't mean that counterstar isn't viable. Is there still a ddferaligatr set despite gyarados? Is there still a swords dance gallade set besides lucario? If starmie can do it well enough to not be a gimmick, there should be a set for it."
To reiterate counterstar can also beat heatran, which is a big plus. And Ice beam (along with surf and tbolt) is still viable on starmie, as it can revenge cbmence stuck in outrage. If you're telling me that the ev's are exactly the same for both counter-star and rapid spin starmie, that didn't stop the current analysis from having both movesets listed despite being almost exactly the same. At the very least, I think ice beam should be slashed in next to rapid spin.
And again you ignored my point.
The fact that counterstar can kill heatran is irrelavent, the RSer does.
The current analysis had counterstar because of Garchomp. Don't strawman me with the point that they use the same EVs please. Actually, most of your argument is a straw man..
CBmence locked into Outrage is not something starmie can counter as it is ohkoed by it. every other set forces it out just as well or better...
The "counterstar" set you're asking for (Leftovers and bulky evs) is kind of dumb as you're passing off one of the game's best support moves in favor of a move to revenge kill a Choice Band Outrage Salamence (something any Starmie can do)... huh?
The fact that counterstar can kill heatran is irrelavent, the RSer does.
The current analysis had counterstar because of Garchomp. Don't strawman me with the point that they use the same EVs please. Actually, most of your argument is a straw man..
CBmence locked into Outrage is not something starmie can counter as it is ohkoed by it. every other set forces it out just as well or better...
The "counterstar" set you're asking for (Leftovers and bulky evs) is kind of dumb as you're passing off one of the game's best support moves in favor of a move to revenge kill a Choice Band Outrage Salamence (something any Starmie can do)... huh?
Chris, I guess what you could do is just instead of saying Counterstar is no longer viable in Other Options (which i think is the way you have it now), I would mention it as a possiblity, but mention that Rapid Spin is just alot better, Deoxys-S *pretty* much outclasses it, and most of the Starmie sets can do the same thing, but keep Rapid Spin.
Also, it looks pretty well written, so it might be able to go on the site soon (if we are putting these on the site yet?).
Also, it looks pretty well written, so it might be able to go on the site soon (if we are putting these on the site yet?).
Starmie's main advantage over Deoxys-E on the Counterstar set is its Water typing, meaning it can switch into Infernape, Mamoswine, Heatran, etc. much easier. It usually doesn't quite make up for all the perks Deoxys-E gets, but it has some merit. And running Counterstar over Rapid Spin means that you can beat more threats overall, IE beat Gyara and not be totally walled by Grass types.
If Starmie sucks against Salamence, why do you suggest on the Spinner set that Ice Beam is for Salamence ?_?
Anyway. Put the Counter Star set back in. It's not outclassed by Deoxys-s. You aren't thinking of it correctly. Deoxys-S outclasses it in Speed and has almost as good of Special Attack, but can Deoxys-S switch into Infernape's or Heatran's Flamethrowers? No. Let's say Gyarados just switched in. You can't switch Gyarados in on Waterfalls like you can Starmie. Sure if Gyarados DD's, Deoxys-S is better, but what if it just directly uses Waterfall for scouting purposes. Then Starmie would have been the superior choice. Starmie can also come in on things like Mamoswine's Ice Fangs / Shards and force it out, something D-E can't really do. So, I'd reconsider your opposition against CounterStar. Starmie's part Water typing gives it useful resistances and the Counter star set shouldn't just be relegated to Other Options when it is perfectly viable.
Uh, you're missing the point of what I've been saying for the last 5 or 7 posts. As "bulky revenger" it's outclassed by Deoxys-s. If you're using it as a switch in to infernape and gyarados, then Starmie is better. But then at that point you could just use the Rapid Spin set! I've said this 4 or 5 times now. As "bulky switch in to fire types", the Rapid Spin set is adequate as Ice Beam is really unusable as nothing weak to it Starmie can counter anymore. Ok? Please? That's what I've been trying to say. While Starmie as counter utility is viable, you don't need to drop Rapid Spin for anything anymore.Caelum and Cynthia (sitting in a tree?) said:
Anyhow, I'm removing Ice Beam from the Spin set as Starmie is a horrible Salamence counter as literally every set OHKOs it or outspeeds and OHKOs it...
The main use imo for Ice Beam would be to not make Starmie set-up bait for enemy Salamence. At this point it's less "counter Star" and more "don't set up on me Starmie".
Of course, the better way to stop stuff like that from setting up on you would be Thunder Wave, though that fails against Lum Berry Salamences and stuff.
Of course, the better way to stop stuff like that from setting up on you would be Thunder Wave, though that fails against Lum Berry Salamences and stuff.
Well, I hate to disagree but I think that rapid spin is one of the worst support moves in the game. It's a waste of a moveslot and a turn to me. Anyways, it does look like deoxys-s is definitely getting the boot to ubers? Perhaps it's time to look at that counterstar set again?
The Deoxys-S vote is a landslide for Uber, so I too think that we should bring back Counterstar.
It's not a huge deal handling DDmence. Every team SHOULD have a Steel on it by now, so if you can switch in Starmie, and it DDs, switch straight to your Steel and it's locked in. Kill it. If Salamence does not DD as you switch in Starmie, and it attacks, you can survive and kill it. (nvm, with a life orb it can ohko)
Starmie never was really a good counter to DDmence to begin with. A Dragon Danced Life Orb Dragon Claw can dispatch Starmie pretty easily too, unless you are running a lot of defense EVs. Since Garchomp is gone, you can afford to run more Defense EVs, so it's really not any worse than it used to be. The only thing that changed is if it DDs, it will be locked into it's Dragon Attack.
It's not a huge deal handling DDmence. Every team SHOULD have a Steel on it by now, so if you can switch in Starmie, and it DDs, switch straight to your Steel and it's locked in. Kill it. If Salamence does not DD as you switch in Starmie, and it attacks, you can survive and kill it. (nvm, with a life orb it can ohko)
Starmie never was really a good counter to DDmence to begin with. A Dragon Danced Life Orb Dragon Claw can dispatch Starmie pretty easily too, unless you are running a lot of defense EVs. Since Garchomp is gone, you can afford to run more Defense EVs, so it's really not any worse than it used to be. The only thing that changed is if it DDs, it will be locked into it's Dragon Attack.
Deoxys being "more uber" than chomp? what the hell? Oh well (rebuilds team)
anyhow Starmie can't switch in to any Salamence, and could never ever counter it. The reason Ice Beam and Counterstar existed was to stop SD Garchomp, Gyarados, and Infernape at once. With no Garchomp, you don't have any moveslot syndrome on the Spin set anymore...
Life Orb set is basically CounterStar anyway, so I'll put Surf on that, give it a ton more emphasis, and maybe offer Leftovers as a choice.
Editing time. Tell me if I missed any Deoxys references.
anyhow Starmie can't switch in to any Salamence, and could never ever counter it. The reason Ice Beam and Counterstar existed was to stop SD Garchomp, Gyarados, and Infernape at once. With no Garchomp, you don't have any moveslot syndrome on the Spin set anymore...
Life Orb set is basically CounterStar anyway, so I'll put Surf on that, give it a ton more emphasis, and maybe offer Leftovers as a choice.
Editing time. Tell me if I missed any Deoxys references.
Good thinking. Hidden Power Fire can replace Ice Beam on counterstar. It might've lost its ability to counter Salamence but it can counter Scizor and HP Fire means it can also hit grass types.
I recommend an Expert Belt on Counterstar because you'll need significant investment to OHKO Scizor without it. With Expert Belt, you only need 68 SpA EVs to OHKO 252 HP Scizor (does a minimum of 90%, so if there is Stealth Rock or life orb recoil, it is killed.
I think the move line-up should be this:
Surf
Hidden Power Fire
Grass Knot
Recover
Guaranteed 2HKOs Cursepert and most Suicune. OHKOs Scizor, Infernape. With the standard 304 HP, Scizor's LO Bullet Punch does 52.63%-62.17%, Quick Attack does 70.39%-82.89%. Most Scizor do not have X-Scissor, and even if they do, you outspeed them, so you can ALWAYS revenge kill unless they have three Swords Dances, and if they do, you are an idiot for letting them.
I think the move line-up should be this:
Surf
Hidden Power Fire
Grass Knot
Recover
Guaranteed 2HKOs Cursepert and most Suicune. OHKOs Scizor, Infernape. With the standard 304 HP, Scizor's LO Bullet Punch does 52.63%-62.17%, Quick Attack does 70.39%-82.89%. Most Scizor do not have X-Scissor, and even if they do, you outspeed them, so you can ALWAYS revenge kill unless they have three Swords Dances, and if they do, you are an idiot for letting them.
None of the ones I've seen have ever run that set. They always have x-scissor over roost. Even the standard in the scizor revamp has U-turn/roost. If anything, I'd personally rather drop the fighting move than the bug move. A +2 stab bug move allows scizor to sweep against bulky waters (pert, suicune) than superpower/brick break, which is only for heatran, whom you have to hit on the switch anyways. Blissey takes plenty from a +2 x-scissor. Of course, starmie is still a decent switch in, as not many people x-scissor immediately to scout for starmie, like they superpower immediately for heatran...at least not yet they don't.
I have been using Starmie a lot lately so I took a look at this analysis. Sorry to bump this thread, but I have a couple comments. Why is the Choice Specs and Choice Scarf sets not combined? They are using the same moves? Do the moves really play that differently since you are using the same ones....
Also, Why is there no late game sweeper set? I understand the Life Orb set is good, but I found this set to be ridiculously easy to sweep with late game. Don't get me wrong, the Life Orb set is very similar, but no recoil makes this set worthy. I believe Jumpman credited this as the "greatest pokemon of all time," at least for battle tower... but it still works. I don't know how many types this hits for super effective, but its so painfully easy to demolish resistance based teams with this.
[SET]
name: Special Sweeper
move1: Hydro Pump / Surf
move2: Psychic
move3: Thunderbolt
move4: Ice Beam
item: Expert Belt
nature: Timid / Modest
ability: Natural Cure
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
----------
Lately I haven't been good at writing comments, so I could use some help. But yeah, Modest nature actually IS viable on this set, because Infernape and Gengar are the only things of importance between your max speed and Modest speed, non-Scarf Gengar usage is almost extinct, and that 10% boost does make a world of difference.
Also, Why is there no late game sweeper set? I understand the Life Orb set is good, but I found this set to be ridiculously easy to sweep with late game. Don't get me wrong, the Life Orb set is very similar, but no recoil makes this set worthy. I believe Jumpman credited this as the "greatest pokemon of all time," at least for battle tower... but it still works. I don't know how many types this hits for super effective, but its so painfully easy to demolish resistance based teams with this.
[SET]
name: Special Sweeper
move1: Hydro Pump / Surf
move2: Psychic
move3: Thunderbolt
move4: Ice Beam
item: Expert Belt
nature: Timid / Modest
ability: Natural Cure
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
----------
Lately I haven't been good at writing comments, so I could use some help. But yeah, Modest nature actually IS viable on this set, because Infernape and Gengar are the only things of importance between your max speed and Modest speed, non-Scarf Gengar usage is almost extinct, and that 10% boost does make a world of difference.
This needs an update. I'd remove any mention of Deoxys-S and throw the CounterStar back in this analysis. Also... why isn't Trick listed in the Scarf set? Similair to Gengar here, it can use it decently. And too / many / slashitis / for the Specs set. Could we cut Hidden Power Fire to Other Options or just mentioned in SET COMMENTS?
CounterStar should play a little differently. Rather than trying to play defensively, I'd rather gear it offensively. Expert Belt is an excellent choice with Surf / Ice Beam / Thunderbolt / Recover. Life Orb or Leftovers make second best item options. It works the same as the Life Orb I guess, but a renaming of "CounterStar" just sounds better to me. Or "Offensive" set.
CounterStar should play a little differently. Rather than trying to play defensively, I'd rather gear it offensively. Expert Belt is an excellent choice with Surf / Ice Beam / Thunderbolt / Recover. Life Orb or Leftovers make second best item options. It works the same as the Life Orb I guess, but a renaming of "CounterStar" just sounds better to me. Or "Offensive" set.