Sun & Moon UU Speculation and Discussion Thread - Updated with UU Alpha!

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Muk-Alola @ Assault Vest
Ability: Poison Touch
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Poison Jab / Gunk Shot
- Pursuit
- Knock Off
- Shadow Sneak / Explosion

Just wanted to bring this up based on the alpha / beta / whatever tour going on since I've found this pretty cool thus far. It checks a lot of the rather strong fast offensive Pokemon that happen to be physically frail roaming about like Nihilego, Starmie, Latias, Alakazam, Gengar and if you get it in vs Mimikyu earlier on you can remove Disguise guaranteed with Pursuit. I'm not entirely sure about what's really the best move on the last slot considering the metagame itself hasn't been too established and people are running everything but Shadow Sneak for prio is nice vs aforementioned Pokemon and Explosion can get a nuke off if you're about to get very low on HP. Pursuit users are honestly looking really good for this metagame but I've only mostly seen a hundred offense variants with slightly deviating balance here and there so who knows.
Another cool option for that fourth moveslot is Fire Blast:
0- SpA Muk-Alola Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Forretress: 300-356 (84.7 - 100.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
As you can see, even with an Adamant nature Fire Blast still OHKOs forry after SR or Knock Off damage, this can prove to be useful when you don't want to forfeit momentum and let it spin away your hazards. (Forretress survives Knock Off + Fire Punch)
Oh and it also hits Coballion harder than any other move.
 

r0ady

People like to invent monsters and monstrosities
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Thought id give some thoughts on pokemon from hoggs ban list that ive used/seen used and like

primarina.png

I figured this mon would be pretty solid but holy fucking shit specs is so good. Fairy water coverage is insane on both an offensive and defensive spectrum meaning this thing can come in often to fire off attacks. Basically if you dont have tenta, empoleon, or blissey have fun sacking to this behemoth because it hits just that goddamn hard, and as its been stated many times its typing and bulk lets it come in on so much and live so many hits. I've yet to use or see defensive variants or even non specs variants but im sure they'll be played with more as UU goes on.


niniligo.png

A mon that we very nearly didnt even let in UU its no wonder this is so good. Fantastic combination of speed, special bulk, and power, Nihilego is insanely scary to go up against. Most have been finding use out of the lo set and honestly that is probably its best with either 4 attack or 3 attacks life orb however ive been playing around with scarf and i love it. It makes for a great late game cleaner and also gets a few surprise kills here and there which is always nice (especially against aero.) Ive been told complaints about tis coverage and inability to beat steel types and to that i say thats complete horse shit:

252 SpA Life Orb Nihilego Power Gem vs. 252 HP / 244 SpD Forretress: 183-216 (51.6 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Nihilego Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 165-195 (50.9 - 60.1%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Nihilego Power Gem vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 199-235 (58 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Nihilego Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 138-162 (45.8 - 53.8%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Nihilego Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 179-213 (48.1 - 57.2%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Nihilego Thunderbolt vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 143-169 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Grant it cobalion outspeeds and not all metagross are max speed max attack but you get the point. Steelix and Aggron are unreleased so this leaves just escav, bronzong, and spdef jirachi (latter being admit idly common) as the steels to wall life orb nihilego.



pallosand.png

Dont have too much to say as i haven't gotten around to using it but ive seen a fat toxic set floating around that looks really cool and ive been meaning to try. Its fat and its typing is annoying when you give it recovery so i see it being a solid mon overall in UUs future.


necrozma.png

This thing seemed a bit crazy for UU at first but upon realizing it literally cant touch dark types without a physical set it just seems ok now. Ive mostly been using a fat set with rocks and t wave, think of it as a frailer cress with rocks, but i also played around with Pearl s cute little iron defense set and had some fun games against ppl who didn't bring a dark type (which is pretty rare.) I love the fat rocks set its so goddamn bulky and gets rocks up on everything, this will for sure be a top tier mon but the trouble with dark types hurt it just way too much. (its also stupid strong for no reason so maybe a tr set could be dope.)


mimikyue.png

Its fucking broken noone should be surprised.



Mons ive been meaning to try: Bewear, Ribombee, Bruxish, Salazzle, and i swear ill make Sylvally work one of these days...
 
Considering that we may or may not have Hippowdon in the future of SuMo UU, SandStall seems promising. Hippowdon + Palossand could easily be a decent Hazard control core (minus the overlapping weaknesses), especially with the 66% recovery from Shore Up under sand.
 
Wooow so many WTF in this Pearl's speculation..

Bewear S lmao, this thing is pretty good for sure but S ? Really..

Salazzle & Minior.. Minior is just too good for UU. This thing put to much pressure on offensive team, just need to shell smash and it's pretty easy to do with his ability.

Bruxish is a monster, SD is insane with Psychic Fangs (STAB + Strong Jaw). He just rekt too much thing..

Welp too much strange speculation.. waiting for the real UU metagame.
 
New Pokemon:

Unlikely to stay in UU (S Rank if they do stay, BL or even OU):

It hasn't been receiving much usage in OU so far, but 97/101/89 bulk coupled with Prism Armor, access to reliable recovery, Calm Mind and Stored Power should be a massive pain for UU to deal with. It also gets some other interesting options in Stealth Rock, Autotomize (alongside usable offensive stats) and Swords Dance. Honestly, this has to be one of the weirdest Pokemon introduced in Sun & Moon and, at least for now, it's pretty hard for me to tell where it's gonna end up or which one of its sets is going to be the most threatening/reliable.



Bewear

This, my friends, is what happens when you put a Diggersby and a Furfrou in a Day Care and force them to breed until a new Pokemon comes out. Excellent offensive typing (which only misses out on Ghost-type Pokemon), insane physical bulk, courtesy of its ability (which is basically Fur Coat with an added Fire-type weakness) and access to moves such as Swords Dance, Ice Punch, Thunder Punch and Shadow Claw means that if this Pokemon ever drops from OU, it's either going to dominate UU in a hilarious fashion or will end up stuck in BL. For what it's worth, Mega Aerodactyl's Wing Attack fails to 2HKO Bewear, which can then proceed to knock Aerodactyl out with a Choice Band-boosted Hammer Arm. In spite of this, I think it'll be fun to see how this Pokemon interacts with the rest of the metagame if it ever drops.

Likely to become staple Pokemon in UU (High A Rank):


Primarina has a godlike typing, which basically makes it UU's best Hydreigon counter (assuming Tapu Fini doesn't end up dropping, which would be pretty stupid), incredibly high Special stats and a respectable movepool. A Choice Specs set with a Water-type move of choice between Hydro Pump and Scald, Moonblast, Psychic and Energy Ball is likely to put in work against UU balance and bulky offense, with Empoleon being the most reliable answer. Besides that, it can also run bulkier sets such as Rest + Sleep Talk, Perish Song (too bad it doesn't get Whirlpool, or else this would be ludicrous), or even a similar set to what Escavalier currently runs, using Assault Vest or Leftovers + Protect with offensive investment to take on some of the most common threats.


Even though it doesn't look spectacular on paper, it is able to consistently grab a Swords Dance boost pretty much every game, thanks to its ability, which makes it immune to the first attack that the opponent uses on it. Swords Dance / Play Rough / Shadow Claw / Shadow Sneak should be nearly impossible for offense to deal with, considering that it fares pretty well against the most common revenge killers (Choice Scarf Hydreigon and Choice Scarf Mienshao), is naturally faster than Pokemon like Krookodile and Lucario and has unresisted coverage on top of that. Who would've thought that this generation's Pikachu (literal) ripoff could end up being so unique (and good too!)?


Even though it's pretty sad that this Pokemon's best Fighting-type move is Sky Uppercut, Kommo-o still has a lot going for it and should easily become one of UU's staple Pokemon. For starters, 75/125/105 bulk is incredibly good and Kommo-o has a lot of tools to help it making use of its bulk, including its above-average offensive stats, Bulk Up, Swords Dance, Autotomize, Dragon Dance and Belly Drum. As far as its viable sets go, I could see something along the lines of Bulk Up / Dragon Tail / Rest / Sleep Talk working when paired with a solid Fairy-type lure. Choice Specs is a no-brainer considering Kommo-o's signature move and Dragon Dance / Autotomize / Swords Dance should all be viable in spite of this thing's lack of an incredibly good Fighting-type move. Substitute + Belly Drum + Reversal + Salac sounds like a hilarious gimmick though.

Likely to be valuable Pokemon in UU (Low A Rank or high B Rank):


Probably the most unique out of all starter Pokemon, which is saying a lot, considering that they're all awesome in their own different way. Basically, Decidueye's signature move is a relatively strong Ghost-type move that allows it to trap whichever Pokemon it hits, which can be exploited thanks to this Pokemon's access to both U-turn and Baton Pass. Besides that, it also gets good offensive stats, Swords Dance, Sucker Punch, reliable recovery in Roost, Feather Dance, Haze and most importantly, Defog, which is easily one of the most valuable moves in competitive Pokemon right now. Has to directly compete with Dhelmise (which I'll get into in a bit) for a team slot, but at a glance it seems like both of them have their merits.


Too bad that this thing's ability doesn't make it immune to Water-type moves, but it's still an unique and strong Pokemon with above average physical bulk, sick Special Attack (paired with an equally sick offensive typing) and reliable recovery. Checks Mega Aerodactyl, Electric-type Pokemon and most Fighting-type Pokemon nicely and pairs up well with many common Pokemon such as pretty much every Water-type and Hydreigon.


Yeah, another dual Grass/Ghost-type Pokemon. The plot twist? This one also gets pseudo-STAB on Steel-type moves! yay! That aside, the main selling point behind this thing is its ability to use Rapid Spin while also being able to hit insanely hard, which allows it to scare pretty much every other Ghost-type Pokemon out. Pretty similar to Decidueye in a way, except that it packs way less utility and is more about killing shit. A bulky offensive set with HP and Attack investment, Leftovers, Power Whip, Phantom Force, Rapid Spin and either Heavy Slam or Gyro Ball sounds OK on paper, although Assault Vest could work as well depending on what the person using this Pokemon needs from it (although Decidueye is probably better if Special bulk is required).

Likely to have a niche in UU (between B and C+):


Not having Sleep Powder or Tinted Lens is unfortunate, but this thing's typing is infinitely better than Venomoth's, so it can use Quiver Dance just fine, being able to abuse Choice Scarf Hydreigon locked into a STAB move or just -2 Hydreigon in general. Quiver Dance / Moonblast / Polen Puff / Hidden Power Ground with either Lum Berry or Life Orb sounds like an usable set on paper, but it might be better off dropping its Bug-type STAB move for Energy Ball.


After chatting with dodmen about this one, we've come to the conclusion that it pretty much needs Z-moves to work in UU, considering how miserable its movepool is outside of Rock-type moves. However, it's still a Pokemon with access to Swords Dance and Rock-type STAB priority, making it both unique and dangerous at the same time. With that said, it's probably gonna be seen using Swords Dance sets with Accelerock, Stone Edge and a coverage move of choice between Brick Break, Fire Fang, Thunder Fang or Crunch, which sound (and is) terrible on paper but can be used to lure common checks by equipping Lycanroc with the appropriate Z-Crystal.


Good Ability, Speed and Special Attack. Similar to Heliolisk in a way, except that it has literally no coverage options aside from Hidden power and Dragon Pulse, which is unfortunate. Probably one of the best Pokemon within this "rank", but getting eaten alive by Mega Aerodactyl and having no bulk at all doesn't do it any good.



Comfey

Fun approach to the whole defensive Fairy-type Pokemon archetype, considering its insanely high Speed stat coupled with Taunt and U-turn. Aside from that and Triage/Natural Cure it isn't too memorable. Lack of Moonblast kind of sucks too, I guess.


It could be a lot stronger if it didn't have such an inconvenient ability, but having good bulk and a decent typing, access to the newly buffed Leech Life, Bulk Up, priority in Sucker Punch and Aqua Jet can make it worth running on some teams and an absolute beast if supported properly.


Probably the most awkward Pokemon released this generation, with a grand total of 2 ways of directly hurting opposing Pokemon. The problem? Both of those are Z-moves and this thing's offensive stats aren't even good! However, it gets randomly colossal defenses, Unaware and a nasty supportive movepool, which includes options such Recover, Toxic, Soak, Curse, Baton Pass and Taunt. On top of that, mono Water is a sick defensive typing, so this thing could definitely do a lot of damage in UU, and could even become the face of UU stall teams, which would be pretty hilarious in a way.


Quite frankly, I have no clue about how good this thing is gonna turn out to be. On paper, it's a mini Arceus with 18 different forms, but the truth is that it lacks all of the options that make Arceus a Pokemon worth calling a god. It's not even a matter of having lower base stats than Arceus, but more about not having a reliable recovery move, not having Extreme Speed, not having Calm Mind, its memory items not boosting Multi-Attack like Plates boost Judgment and so on. However, it still gets Swords Dance, Parting Shot (!) and solid base stats across the board. I could see one or two of its forms (probably Ghost and Normal with a Fire-type Z-Move) becoming reasonably good in UU with a Swords Dance set. Too bad that it gets an actually usable Special movepool with no real way of abusing it though. Ignore this last bit! It can use Z-Move Heal Block to grab a +2 Special Attack boost. Still unsure about how good it'll be though.



Minior

Obviously gimmicky in a way, but this thing is such a dangerous Shell Smash user that it's impossible to overlook. Substitute to activate its ability, White Herb to remain fairly bulky after a boost and to power up Acrobatics at the same time and it should be good to go. Earthquake rounds off the set by hitting Steel-type Pokemon. It's a very one-dimensional Pokemon and requires some support to functional, but I could see it paying off in the long run in a similar fashion to how Slurpuff works.

Interesting Pokemon that are unlikely to stay in UU:


Interesting probably isn't enough to describe this Pokemon. The ability to completely destroy Celebi while also being able to Throat Chop the hell out of Sylveon isn't bad at all, and Incineroar should be able to run a decent Choice Band set with Flare Blitz, Throat Chop, U-turn and a filler move of choice. However, not having Pursuit, Sucker Punch or access to its hidden ability is unfortunate and heavily compromises its viability in UU. At least we finally got a bulky dual Fire/Dark-type Pokemon though!


A weird hybrid between Choice Band Conkeldurr and Swords Dance Abomasnow. Ice Hammer + Iron Fist should be a pain in the ass for slower teams to play around, but the lack any of defensive utility or strong priority move whatsoever should make it way too one-dimensional to work consistently in UU.


This Pokemon has to be one of my personal favorites (flavor-wise at least) of this generation for sure. Monstrous base stats, courtesy of its ability, U-turn and a decent typing (excellent defensively but questionable as a standalone offensive typing) should give this a niche as a Choice Band user (Waterfall / Earthquake / U-turn / Return or Sleep Talk sounds sweet on paper), but its movepool doesn't give it much room to work with, which is unfortunate. Maybe this will be changed once there are move tutors in Gen 7?


Two sweet abilities, respectable base stats and access to U-turn on top of that. Could see some usage on Spikes stacking teams as a Choice Scarf user in a similar fashion to Primeape in lower tiers, but that's most likely the extent of this Pokemon's viability in UU.



Komala

Very interesting ability coupled with some awesome options, including Rapid Spin, Swords Dance (and priority in Sucker Punch) and U-turn. It's most likely not going to end up affecting UU at all, but I still found it worth mentioning based on its unique traits.



Bruxish a.k.a. Brexit: The Pokemon​

A Swords Dance set with Psychic Fangs, Ice Fang and Aqua Jet doesn't sound half bad on paper, but being a frail Psychic-type Pokemon that gets outpaced by Hydreigon and speed ties with Krookodile doesn't do it any good. Pretty much a poor men's Mega Sharpedo, although not bending over to Conkeldurr and not taking up a mega evolution slot is sort of interesting. All in all, it just isn't looking too good for White Queen's new favorite Pokemon.



Drampa

Choice Specs sets will hit insanely hard, but Hydreigon, Kommo-o and even Kyurem should be superior choices for the most part due to their higher defensive utility and speed. It should be able to always get 1 kill per game if used correctly though, considering its ability and passable bulk.
I might be a triggered Owlfug here, but why did you leave out Decidueye's Stallbreaking set? It seems odd that you have Primarina with a Sleeptalk set (and it seems Fishy that you didn't compare Prima to Suicine/Sylveon, which is very comparable) and Perish Song+potential Whirl Pool, but don't have Spirit Shackle+Toxic+70 Spe for Decidueye, which can be very devastating against Stall. And my last bit of saltiness, Primarina is more of a check than a full counter Hydreigon with what the most popular sets will likely be.

4 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Iron Tail vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Primarina: 125-148 (41.5 - 49.1%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

4 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Primarina: 125-148 (34.3 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Without HP investments, it can't counter Hydreigons that have Iron Tail, and with full HP investment, it can only switch on it once.

Aside from those few points, the rest of the list seems pretty solid.
 

Sage

From the River To the Sea
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Primarina is always running at least some HP because it doesn't really have anything to outspeed except for creeping univested base 70s(?) or specific benchmarks as a team requires, so it really is a great Hydra switch in.

Also want to give a shoutout to fire doge Arcanine who seems to give stall a fair shot at functioning, such a good answer for lots of threats right now, most importantly Mimikyu.
 

Hogg

grubbing in the ashes
is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
Mimikyu is pretty insanely good. It has unresisted STABs, not terrible bulk or defensive typing, is reasonably fast, has STAB priority, it can bust through most of its best checks with Wood Hammer/Bloom Doom, and it is pretty much guaranteed a free Swords Dance every single game. Scizor is one of the more reliable checks, but takes >50% from a +2 Shadow Claw (as much as 80% vs 248/0 Scizor if Mimikyu is running Life Orb instead of Grassium-Z), so it needs Roost to reliably do so, and the nature of Disguise means that you can't actually just switch your check in because then Disguise remains unbroken, and you have to tank a possibly boosted attack before you can revenge even if you outspeed. (Plus bulky Scizor's Bullet Punch doesn't OHKO anyhow.)

Scizor is probably the top offensive check, but again, you've got to keep it pretty healthy and can't use it to pivot around if the opponent has a non-busted Mimikyu on her team. The best overall checks in practice are bulky walls with recovery like Tangrowth, Pyukumuku and Hippowdon, but they don't fit on every team and the latter have to watch out for Bloom Doom/boosted Wood Hammer.
 
Guys, Obviously SM UU isnt fully working on PS yet, but as I can tell, you guys are already playing it :P would anyone mind sharing me the banlist you're using (and if possible the reasoning for a mon to be UU or not)?? Thanks in advance :]
 
Guys, Obviously SM UU isnt fully working on PS yet, but as I can tell, you guys are already playing it :P would anyone mind sharing me the banlist you're using (and if possible the reasoning for a mon to be UU or not)?? Thanks in advance :]


Banned Pokemon
Aegislash, Azumarill, Bisharp, Breloom, Buzzwole, Celesteela, Chansey, Clefable, Diggersby, Dragonite, Dugtrio, Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Garchomp, Genesect, Gliscor, Greninja, Greninja-Ash, Hawlucha, Heatran, Hoopa-Unbound, Kartana, Keldeo, Kingdra, Kyurem-Black, Landorus-I, Landorus-T, Latios, Magearna, Magnezone, Manaphy, Mantine, Marowak-Alola, Pelipper, Pheremosa, Porygon-Z, Rotom-Wash, Scolipede, Serperior, Skarmory, Tapu Bulu, Tapu Fini, Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, Terrakion, Thundurus-I, Thundurus-T, Tornadus-T, Toxapex, Tyranitar, Volcanion, Volcarona, Weavile, Xurkitree, Zygarde, Zygarde-10%

Banned Abilities
Drizzle, Drought

Banned Items
Alakazite, Charizardite-X, Charizardite-Y, Gyaradosite, Latiasite, Metagrossite, Pinsirite, Sablenite, Scizorite, Slowbronite, Venusaurite

Banned Moves
Swagger, Z-Flash
This is the banlist that most of the roomtours and the forum tour (click the arrow on top of the quote box) use. As you can see, it's mostly just speculation on what we think will drop come February. Of course, for that reason, its not absolute. The only things that seem to be banned preemptively are Volcarona, Hawlucha, Terrakion and Thundurus-T, which any player that saw the short time they were UU in early XY could likely recall the utter nightmares they were to the tier. Other than that, the actual trends in OU might change the list come time for actual UU beta (such as aegislash being banned early enough to give jirachi a good shot of staying OU).
 
This is the banlist that most of the roomtours and the forum tour (click the arrow on top of the quote box) use. As you can see, it's mostly just speculation on what we think will drop come February. Of course, for that reason, its not absolute. The only things that seem to be banned preemptively are Volcarona, Hawlucha, Terrakion and Thundurus-T, which any player that saw the short time they were UU in early XY could likely recall the utter nightmares they were to the tier. Other than that, the actual trends in OU might change the list come time for actual UU beta (such as aegislash being banned early enough to give jirachi a good shot of staying OU).
Thanks a lot :) Appreciated
 
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would it be possible for a tier leader/mod to ask zarel for a temp UU ladder on showdown. its hard to test teams when u can only like ask the UU room randoms for battles :/

response to clawitzer: gotchaaaaaa makes sense
 
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would it be possible for a tier leader/mod to ask zarel for a temp UU ladder on showdown. its hard to test teams when u can only like ask the UU room randoms for battles :/
I'm hoping for that too. UU is my favorite tier so I want to try things out, but mostly I just want to be able to go 3 battles with seeing a Celesteela.
 
I've been curious about Z-Mirror Move. It's the only Z-Move (other than Z-Splash) to boost Attack more than 1 stage, so it could be valuable on physically attacking 'mons that don't get access to Swords Dance.

I feel like that out of the eligible users; Fearow, Swellow, Staraptor and Honchkrow would benefit most but I'm not sure if this would be enough to make any of them more UU relevant or even if they'd use it over their other sets or not.
 
would it be possible for a tier leader/mod to ask zarel for a temp UU ladder on showdown. its hard to test teams when u can only like ask the UU room randoms for battles :/
We sadly do not have any usage stats to base UU off, and all of this is just wild speculation. The "tier" we are playing (hogg's banlist) is anything but official, and is just a fun sideproject and probably nowhere even close to what the real UU will end up looking like. Asking for a ladder would just give an already busy man even more work, even though I'm 100% certain he'd reject this, and is pretty meaningless in the long run considering you'll likely have to delete all of those teams you want to test in two months.

Revelation I encourage you to try out Z-Mirror Move, maybe on Staraptor or Honchkrow. I'm not sure if you'd get any good results as a large part of what makes Staraptor and Honchkrow is their immediate power, but I would want to face neither of them at +2. With Staraptor, I can at least reliably revenge kill it. Honchkrow is a whole other problem as its strong Sucker Punch is a rather fearsome tool. Whatever the case, try it out and let us know the results! I'm curious myself now.
 

Hogg

grubbing in the ashes
is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
The downside I see to moves like Z-Mirror Move is that in addition to a set-up turn, they end up costing you your item, too. Running Choice Band on Staraptor gives the equivalent of a +1 boost without requiring a setup turn, so going up to a +2 boost once per game at the cost of an item and a turn doesn't feel as significant - especially in Staraptor's case, where you rarely end up clicking anything other than Brave Bird. I'd be interested to see if anyone has good success with them, but mostly I'm skeptical.

Anyhow, I'd seen Aquadext hyping Flyinium-Z Salamence, but I decided to finally give it a shot myself. Built a quick dragspam team yesterday and...

...OK, yeah, the hype is real. In addition to the insanely strong Flying attack, this thing also benefits from the fact that Z-Crystals can't be knocked off, giving you setup opportunities against things like Krookodile that otherwise can't touch you. Here are a couple of replays from a tour this morning:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-490108093
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-490109403

They aren't the best replays in the world, but in both instances the Z-Crystal definitely played a role (in the first, by easily OHKOing Decidueye, though I'm not sure what it would have done to me in return, and in the second by allowing me to set up on Krookodile without fear of Knock Off). I've done other test games in general, though, and it is pretty consistently good. Just don't set up until Mimikyu is busted, and watch out for things like Slowbro. The power of STAB Supersonic Skystrike is enough to break through any Fairies not named Diancie, so it doesn't need to rely on Iron Tail to beat them. More, it gives it a strong attack (stronger than Outrage) to get the damage train rolling, so you can use Dragon Claw as your main attack and stick to Supersonic Skystrike to break through bulkier Pokemon such as Suicune and Hippo.

EDIT: And one more for fun, since this one shows off the Z-Move's power a bit better: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-490142874
 
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Hogg

grubbing in the ashes
is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
Yeah, when I made the banlist I wasn't really seeing a ton of hype outside of people just wanting to try everything out. After the live tours where it saw a lot of success, I feel like its usage exploded, and I suspect we won't have to worry about banning it after all.
 
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I figured this mon would be pretty solid but holy fucking shit specs is so good. Fairy water coverage is insane on both an offensive and defensive spectrum meaning this thing can come in often to fire off attacks. Basically if you dont have tenta, empoleon, or blissey have fun sacking to this behemoth because it hits just that goddamn hard, and as its been stated many times its typing and bulk lets it come in on so much and live so many hits. I've yet to use or see defensive variants or even non specs variants but im sure they'll be played with more as UU goes on.
Seriously Specs Primarina is SO fucking goood, it's like Specs Sylveon from ORAS except its typing is so much better for switching in and threatening out more stuff, and the threat of Hydro Pump deters any Steel like Jirachi coming in (Scarf Jirachi has a good chance to be OHKOed after Rocks). I've been using Psychic/Eball in the last two moveslots, I don't think you need Ice Beam since Psychic covers Tentacruel while still retaining coverage on Amoonguss and Roserade. Defensively, there's better Fairies to use (Togekiss and Sylveon), but from a purely offensive standpoint, Primarina blows all other options out of the water.


Scizor is also insanely good, if we do end up getting it in actual UU (which I expect to, because who's still using regular Scizor in OU?) it's for sure gonna be one of the biggest threats of the metagame. Bulky SD sets aren't forced out by that much and can wall stuff and set up SD with very minimal/obvious support, and can very easily win games on its own. Its checks are almost all weak to SR, making them easily whittled by good predictions or just U-turn, while the Scizor set itself is very hard to punish thanks to its longevity. I played a game today against a stall team with Sableye, HP Fire Amoonguss, and fat Flamethrower Salamence, and Scizor still ended up sweeping late game since it was so easy to just U-turn early game and then get boosts later on the other members of the team. It seems like you have to actively prepare for this Scizor set with something like Zapdos or Arcanine, and even then SR up puts a huge burden on these Pokemon to stop it. CB Scizor is also obviously very good - an incredible pivot and momentum grabber that's also really threatening to offense. I don't know whether I'd call it outright broken in Hogg's tournament metagame, but it's definitely one of the best Pokemon and easy to fit on every single type of team.


Raikou and Zapdos are really good as well, Raikou because it's very good against the bulky offense teams that everyone is throwing together right now, and Zapdos simply some teams simply aren't prepared for it. I'll even go out on a limb and say a double-Electric core containing these two is probably pretty good as they mostly have totally different checks and are generally good against stuff like Scizor, Rachi, Togekiss, etc. Add that to the fact that Hippowdon isn't too hard to lure with something like Ebelt Rachi or a well-timed Bloom Doom from something else, letting either one of these go nuts.


Speaking of Togekiss, it also seems to be slept on right now - it's another Pokemon like Zapdos that generally isn't prepared for, and it seems like either your team has a Zapdos/Raikou/Scizor/Jirachi, or your team is gonna struggle like hell to take it down. Right now, I think that TWave is the better move on NP sets rather than Heal Bell, since most people are using bulky offense rather than purely defensive teams, but I'm sure that'll change over time as it did last generation. I haven't used Specs yet, but that also seems cool to catch Zapdos with a strong Dazzling Gleam or Scizor with Flamethrower, while still having a fair amount of defensive utility.


Bewear is fucking nuts to play against lol, it can literally switch into Mega Aerodactyl if it really wants to - obviously its better off not doing that, but that fact is kind of insane. CB seems to be the only set as it's too slow and lacks coverage to do anything else. Really fun mon though, capable of putting in work in every game.
 

Hilomilo

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I have yet to try out Hogg UU, but in part, that's because of all the new things to try that exceed the amount of teamslots I'm allowed on a team ;) I'm really excited to try things like Salamence, Togekiss, Primarina, Palossand and more, but I also think that pokemon that have access to z-celebrate (boosts all stats by 1) could have a lot of newfound viability in the tier. Specifically, I'm excited about Espeon, Sylveon and Gyarados (even though the latter two are already quite viable as ORAS UU mons). Here are some sets I'm looking forward to trying out.


Espeon @ Normalium Z
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Celebrate
- Baton Pass
- Stored Power
- Dazzling Gleam/Shadow Ball

This is probably the one that I'm most excited about. Assuming that baton pass or all-stat boosting z-moves don't get banned (plz free PZ if that happens!), Espeon will be able to excel in the respective roles of an anti lead thanks to magic bounce, a baton passer and a fearsome sweeper. Baton pass is for passing to teammates vs. things that Espy can't beat, while Stored Power, after boosting, provides you with a 120 base power STAB attack coming off of an amazing special attack stat. Dazzling gleam and shadow ball can be used depending on what you want to bop, be it dark types or doublade, though you can just baton pass in the face of whichever those things you can't hit. Really excited about this thing, considering Espy's had a rather mediocre UU history:toast:

Edit: Espeon can't have magic bounce with celebrate, but will at least be able to sweep and BP still! :D


Sylveon @ Normalium Z
Ability: Cute Charm
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD or you could invest speed if you want a faster BP or offensive Sylveon set
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Celebrate
- Baton Pass/Protect
- Moonblast
- Wish/Protect
This set's a little different from Espy's in that it's very capable offensively but is moreso meant for support. Z-Celebrate + Baton Pass is pretty self-explanatory, but wish can be passed alongside those stat boosts, which honestly just sounds awesome, and moonblast is going to be really strong when at +1, even with no special investment (pixilate is incompatible with celebrate). You could opt to run protect over baton pass if you want Sylveon to function as a tank with recovery, but I'm going to use this set with baton pass since there's a hilariously large amount of potential recipients of BP. You could also use Umbreon and Vaporeon to BP Z-Celebrate, but I chose Sylveon thanks to its better offensive presence and offensive/defensive typing (don't even think Umby and Vapo will be UU tbh, drop those suckers).


Last and probably least, is Z-Celebrate Gyarados. This one's a little tougher of a call in terms of viability, considering that dragon dance could do it just fine, but the boosts in defense and special defense are always nice. Here's the set:

Gyarados @ Normalium Z
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Celebrate
- Substitute/Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Bounce/Earthquake/Dragon Dance
Here we go. Z-Celebrate boosts all stats, while substitute allows Gyarados to basically guarantee setup unless its against a Sylveon or something. Dragon dance is for even more speed and power, which allows this thing to make itself a bulkier DD set. Waterfall is mandatory STAB, while bounce and earthquake can either be used to bop grass and electric types depending on which your team has a harder time dealing with. This thing could potentially be a great late game cleaner, but we'll just have to wait and see, since ya know, this could be totally unnecessary with dd being a thing BUT I HAVE HOPE :3

Anyways, thanks for reading, and hopefully we'll see some great things happen with Z-Celebrate this UU!
 
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I can definitely see Celebrate Gyarados being a viable option, since Gyara technically doesn't need an Item slot to function well (i.e. Lum Berry, Wacan Berry).

With that said, these Z-status moves that give a +1 boost in every stat seem a bit out of hand. It would be understandable if Pory-Z is the only broken abuser of the move, but it seems like almost any Pokemon that can be offensively-oriented can abuse it to great success, and banning Pokemon such as Espeon, Sylveon, and Gyarados from UU because of this element seems a bit counter-intuitive. I think these Z-boosts echo some arguments during the Baton Pass decision, primarily the one that states "Baton Pass gives Pokemon that shouldn't normally get boost in that stats and thus creates an environment that the opponent can't absolutely be prepared for" or something along the lines of that (please correct me if I'm wrong).

Although there is the argument that these boosts are a one-time thing and can easily be countered with something like Roar, I feel like that there's an extra level of safety in using Z-Celebrate or Z-Conversion mostly because of the boosted defenses, which sometimes makes a Pokemon that could be KO'd at a certain percentage by either priority or Scarfers harder to take down, thus reducing the number of options a player can use to make a counter play to stop a sweep.

TL;DR: the lack of counter-play against a Z-Celebrate Pokemon could be problematic for the tier.
 

CoolStoryBrobat

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I tried using Z-Celebrate Gyarados and I wasn't a huge fan. In a lot of cases I wanted to really have Dragon Dance, because you at least can do more than set up to just +1 and sweep. Z-Celebrate Gyarados sadly still gets revenged by Mega Aerodactyl no matter how you cut it, which is admittedly kind of heartbreaking...Sorry to burst your bubble, but Z-Bounce Gyarados is probably going to be a lot more usable (were it not for Salamence being a much scarier abuser of the same tactic). You really want some fire, here's something I thought up late one night that me and LeoLancaster were messing around with:



Jirachi @ Normalium Z
Ability: Serene Grace
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Zen Headbutt
- Fire Punch
- Happy Hour

Can't run Heart Stamp because that's from a different event than the one that Jirachi gets Happy Hour from. And honestly I'm running a very bland physical set, but there's a ton of potential here to run special, or even mixed sets to take advantage of the all-inclusive stat boosts. Either way, setting up Jirachi and getting a pseudo-Scarf Jirachi that has +1 attack and can switch moves sounds like death. Fun for the whole family!
 
In all honesty, I think decidueye would be in UU. At most, all it would have is a niche in UU. Besides the common dark/flying/ice/fire types that outspeed and threaten decidueye, it's lacking physical bulk leaves it vulnerable to even non-stab super effective moves from pokemon it could be used to "check". For example:
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Decidueye: 335-395 (112.7 - 132.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Decidueye may have some uses in UU such as being a decent suicune check, but I doubt it would stay UU.
 
It seems some people believe Hogg's tournament and ban list are going to be an accurate representation of the real UU, but it's just a fun tour based on speculations and handpicked Pokemons and bans. People here and on PS have been claiming "X is broken in UU" or "Y is going to be S in the viability ranking" using this "fun tier" as a base, which is basically pointless.

Let's use some numbers, trends and stats (old and the few current ones we have) to show how the real UU is going to look like:

OU is going to have around 50 and 55 Pokemon. (Probably less because the meta is fairly centralized atm, but w/e)

4 Tapus (Fini, Lele, Bulu, Kokoloko)
5 Ultra Beasts (Buzzswole, Pheromosa, Xurkitree, Kartana, Celesteela)
7 Guaranteed OU Megas (Alakazam, Metagross, Venusaur, Charizard X, Gyarados, Sableye, Scizor)
4 Former Ubers Pokemon with 0% chance of dropping (Genesect, Landorus-I, Greninja, Hoopa-Unbound)
17 OU staples with extremely low chances of dropping (Skarmory, Chansey, Landorus-T, Rotom-W, Heatran, Garchomp, Ferrothorn, Latios, Tyranitar, Excadrill, Clefable, Manaphy, Keldeo, Tornadus-T, Thundurus-I, Gliscor, Kyurem-B)
3 New toys with low chances of droping (Toxapex, Magearna, Marowak-A)
4 Others (Dugtrio, Magnezone, Zygarde, Pelipper)

That's 44 Pokemon that are "guaranteed" OU. Now here's a list of good Pokemon that haven't been mentioned (I'm probably missing some)

Amoonguss
Azumarill
Bisharp
Breloom
Celebi
Diggersby
Dragonite
Gengar
Hawlucha
Jirachi
Kingdra
Latias
Mantine
Mega Charizard Y
Mega Pinsir
Mew
Politoed
Raikou
Scollipede
Serperior
Staraptor
Starmie
Terrakion
Thundurus-T
Togekiss
Victini
Volcanion
Volcarona
Weavile
Zapdos
Zygarde-10%

That's 30 Pokemon competing for ~11 spots in OU. Drizzle isn't banned in SUMO and Politoed is definitely dropping because Pelipper is much better; Kingdra might drop and then there's the rest of the rain gang. Mega Zard and Mega Pinsir are absolute beasts. Mew can do absolutely everything. Exactly how many Pokemon can switch into any of these Pokemon: Azumarill, Diggersby, Staraptor, Terrakiom, Victini, Volcanion. Bisharp and Breloom aren't the scariest threats, but they sure as fuck have the potential to be above average Pokemon. Hawlucha, Serperior, Weavile, Volcarona and Thundurus-T are coming back with a vengeance. If you think DD Salamence is scary, better hope Dragonite doesn't actually drop. Zydoge can use CB Thousand Arrows with literally 0 risks, because whatever switches in is getting smacked, and fast enough to outspeed most offensive Pokemon. Togekiss is going to do the exact same thing it has been doing since it was introduced in DPP. Latias, Gengar, Jirachi and Starmie have been OU staples in multiple gens for a reason; don't underestimate them. Amoonguss and Mantine are nice!

Other things that need to be considered and that won't be major factors until we actually have a real ladder to test:

1) Threats that need to be "rediscovered", like Mega Absol (which is incredible thanks to the mega buff), Mega Sharpedo (same + Psychi Fangs), Entei, Baton Pass, etc

2) Pokemon with "minor buffs" that might manage to be relevant, like WoW Frosslass, Drought Torkoal, 75 SAtk Swellow (252 SpA Choice Specs Swellow Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 261-307 (81.3 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
), etc

3) New toys like Bewear, Primarina, Brexit, Necrozma, Mimikyu, Minior, etc

4) The biggest one: The real potential of Z moves, ie:

- Whimsicott with priority Z Memento

- Things like Cobalion, Gyarados and Salamence being able to brute their way through their checks and counters (if Terrakion drops lol [+2 252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 372-438 (84.3 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery] lures with weird Z moves.

- Lures with Z moves,eg:

252+ SpA Volcanion Solar Beam (190 base power Doom Bloom) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 402-474 (99.5 - 117.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Krookodile Aerial Ace (120 base power Supersonic Skystrike) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 308-364 (81 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Toxicroak Sucker Punch (140 base power Black Hole Eclipse) vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 248-294 (77.7 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Random examples that come to mind, don't give them too much importance.

So yeah, let's wait a bit before jumping the gun on some things.
 
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