Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

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After being 20 pages behind and finally catching up on this thread, this is all I have to say



We Tera Water our Clefable if they start running Heavy Slam. Looking forward to DLC in a month!
even as a garg fan i'm very excited for mguard clef as a hard stop to salt cure. i still believe in cloak with all my heart and soul but clef will finally get people to stop crying over the fact that residual damage exists

i'm also hoping that they finally give clef heal bell as an egg move because heal bell is sorely missed right now
 
I was right when I went against the grain and said that Heatran would be a lot worse without Toxic (
It isn't though. Tera makes up for the loss of the move and lets it break down bulky teams fine. It just isn't the easiest to always use right now because of the offensive incline of the meta, but that's not new. That's always been something Heatran struggled with.

Agreed. The same can even be said for Landorus to an extent
Lando is doing fine? Especially now that people have gotten comfortable with sets that work.
 
I was right when I went against the grain and said that Heatran would be a lot worse without Toxic (which was what made it close to unwallable) and Eruption (losing that significantly hindered offensive sets such as the lead Air Balloon set) as well as the additional checks introduced this gen even though people were saying that Heatran was top tier since time immemorial and that that would remain the case.

I'm calling it now that Clefable will be significantly worse without Softboiled and Knock Off now that it has to rely on Moonlight or Wish and Protect (which is exploitable with the many powerful setup sweepers in the tier) and will have fewer options to make progress with given how free Knock Off used to be. Encore being common this generation is another trend Clef hates. Gholdengo is also Clefable's biggest nightmare and is roughly at 30% usage. I think if Clefable stays OU this generation that it will hover around the 5-7%ish mark in usage. Clefable will retain a niche, but its place in OU will be less prominent.
Yeah, was thinking this too. Doesn't help that it doesn't do that great vs the top Fighting-types in the tier like Great Tusk, which will be chunking quite a bit harder compared to last generation's threats. Great Tusk can do Knock Off once, which will directly put Clef into KO range in their next encounter (if Clef is used as a switch-in).

252 Atk Great Tusk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 47-55 (11.9 - 13.9%)
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 174-205 (44.1 - 52%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Iron Valiant has some options in order to handle Clef. Specs isn't great vs SpDef Variants, but does pretty well vs Phys Def Clef (can even 2HKO it in the 1v1 after a CM if Clef makes that ballsy play), and can use Trick or Encore to cripple most variants.

252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 169-201 (42.8 - 51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 240-283 (60.9 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 160-190 (40.6 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Clef's options are still fairly wide, but it lost a lot of cool tech it could do last gen. I'm not sure if this set was common (or good) but I think Clef could run Knock Off + Seismic Toss to whittle away its common counters like Heatran and Pex effectively. This is no longer an option. It lost Teleport for pivoting too. Still has tech like Sticky Barb + Trick, and Tera could give it some new tools, so its not a lost cause. Still, 8 Moonlight PP will make most of its sets noticeably worse and would be the biggest thing cutting into its effectiveness this gen compared to last gen imo. Its ability to pivot into moves like Toxic and Scald will also be less useful this generation due to limited distribution. I think there will be better Tera picks than Clef since Fairy is already one of the best typings out there, and other types like Fire have massive drawbacks. I mainly see Ground and Water being good, with other options like Flying popping up to troll Tusk.

Magic Guard is still pretty busted though (esp in a hazard infested meta) so I don't think Clef will be bad, but it will probably be a middle-tier pick compared to the top tier staple it was last gen.
 
I agree Gamefreak largely leaves us to our own devices (I will say I think they should too, if something might be cool in VGC but busted as hell in singles it is better to just let us ban it then not do it) but I do think they'll give some attention here and there. I do admittedly know very little about VGC so please tell me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Protean and Libero were especially problematic abilities there so nerfing them would have been a thing for singles. Same with Toxic's access being gutted and I imagine Pursuit's removal as well. At the very least I certainly wouldn't think both those moves are as strong as they are in singles.
These can be explained by 1) changes for the sake of (perceived or actual) imbalances in BSS and 2) widespread movepool cleanup efforts (which have targeted a number of non-problematic moves as well). If they really pay attention to competitive 6v6 Singles balance at all, then their understanding of it is pretty bad (like the removal of Pursuit, which did not have a huge amount of support at the time even if there is praise for it in retrospect, when Arena Trap and Shadow Tag are infinitely more broken).

Also, if they cared about 6v6 Singles, they wouldn't have a 20 minute timer for a challenge-only format. It's so bad that it's been noted even in casual settings that it makes battles extremely difficult to complete.
 
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I was right when I went against the grain and said that Heatran would be a lot worse without Toxic (which was what made it close to unwallable) and Eruption (losing that significantly hindered offensive sets such as the lead Air Balloon set) as well as the additional checks introduced this gen even though people were saying that Heatran was top tier since time immemorial and that that would remain the case.

I'm calling it now that Clefable will be significantly worse without Softboiled and Knock Off now that it has to rely on Moonlight or Wish and Protect (which is exploitable with the many powerful setup sweepers in the tier) and will have fewer options to make progress with given how free Knock Off used to be. Encore being common this generation is another trend Clef hates. Gholdengo is also Clefable's biggest nightmare and is roughly at 30% usage. I think if Clefable stays OU this generation that it will hover around the 5-7%ish mark in usage. Clefable will retain a niche, but its place in OU will be less prominent.
The nerfs hurt Clef pretty bad yeah, but having a bulky Magic Guard mon in a meta like this offers a lot of breathing room for bulkier teams. A mon that can compress the roles of rocker, Val check, Bax check, Tusk check, possible Moon check with Tera, and utility is quite valuable and I look forward to using it as a buffer against a lot of hazard abusing threats in the meta.
 
With Gamefreak, never attribute to competence that which can be attributed to laziness. The removal of old level up moves is most likely just because they didn't want to figure out how to implement them with the new move relearning system. The clip of Milotic using Scald suggests they never actually understood the move was busted and are likely bringing it back.
People calling Game Freak lazy is like calling experienced chefs lazy or incompetent because they had 30 minutes to complete a recipe with a 45 minute oven timer.

Stop calling Game Freak devs "lazy" or "incompetent", they have a literally impossible task, complete an Open World JRPG in 2.5 years, on a cyclical basis. They are already splut up staff wise and Gen 10, which is likely also an open world JRPG, is already 100% slated for 2026.

With pre-production of about 3-6 months, they probably started working on it in April or so, on top of the Scarlet and Violet engine. The game will need to release in 2 years and 7 months from aboht that point, which also adds some time that would be used for shipping, for potential day one patches.

When the game comes out, immediately a shit ton of that staff will be moved to Gen 11.

Breath of the Wild took 5 years. Tears of the Kingdom took 6, and it even reused most of Breath of the Wild. Console game development is exponentially harder than handheld game development.

Game Freak also is not understaffed, 200 developers is plenty. They are not incompetent or lazy, it is a miracle Scarlet and Violet has as much content as it does in their time frame on an engine designed for top-down games. They will simply never be able to make good console quality games with their release cycle, on top of a terrible engine.
 
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People calling Game Freak lazy is like calling experienced chefs lazy or incompetent because they had 30 minutes to complete a recipe with a 45 minute oven timer.

Stop calling Game Freak devs "lazy" or "incompetent", they have a literally impossible task, complete an Open World JRPG in 2.5 years, on a cyclical basis. They are already splut up staff wise and Gen 10, which is likely also an open world JRPG, is already 100% slated for 2026.

With pre-production of about 3-6 months, they probably started working on it in April or so, on top of the Scarlet and Violet engine. The game will need to release in 2 years and 7 months from aboht that point, which also adds some time that would be used for shipping, for potential day one patches.

When the game comes out, immediately a shit ton of that staff will be moved to Gen 11.

Breath of the Wild took 5 years. Tears of the Kingdom took 6, and it even reused most of Breath of the Wild. Console game development is exponentially harder than handheld game development.

Game Freak also is not understaffed, 200 developers is plenty. They are not incompetent or lazy, it is a miracle Scarlet and Violet has as much content as it does in their time frame on an engine designed for top-down games. They will simply never be able to make good console quality games with their release cycle, on top of a terrible engine.
And with that recent Pokemon presents 80% of what was shown was other projects, so honestly I don't see the excuse anymore. It's different than it was a decade ago when the main series games were holding the franchise on its back for merch and the anime. Which we have like 4 total anime shows now. Gone are the days of one central show that took from the source material or made up bonkers stuff on the spot.
 
I think we're all forgetting something; there's an absolute UNIT coming back in the Teal Mask DLC that's more of a Chad than Clefable is (I will make an analysis once the post DLC 1 meta settles; unless the rumors of a Mightyena evolution are true)

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As for the discussion regarding GF and the Pokemon dev cycle; I think that we're focusing too much on the wrong Pokemon entity. The reason Pokemon games have such a constricting development schedule is because of the merch end of things. Pokemon merch makes exponentially more than the games themselves, and thus the games are subject to the whim of whatever those profit overlords desire.
 
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I think we're all forgetting something; there's an absolute UNIT coming back in the Teal Mask DLC that's more of a Chad than Clefable is (I will make an analysis once the post DLC 1 meta settles)

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As for the discussion regarding GF and the Pokemon dev cycle; I think that we're focusing too much on the wrong Pokemon entity. The reason Pokemon games have such a constricting development schedule is because of the merch end of things. Pokemon merch makes exponentially more than the games themselves, and thus the games are subject to the whim of whatever those profit overlords desire.
Someone said with how pooch was revealed from a trainer in the direct trailer he might get a 3rd stage but who knows.
 
And with that recent Pokemon presents 80% of what was shown was other projects, so honestly I don't see the excuse anymore. It's different than it was a decade ago when the main series games were holding the franchise on its back for merch and the anime. Which we have like 4 total anime shows now. Gone are the days of one central show that took from the source material or made up bonkers stuff on the spot.
I think we honest to Arceus could have gotten delayed scheduling for the new era, if not for the villain of the fandom and the Pokemon world:

Brilliant Diamond and Shining Pearl. Not because the game is the most mid game in the series, but because of Money. And not just "fans will buy anything", it's fiscal years.

The fiscal year (aka what matters to companies) ends in March. 2021 to 2022 was their most successful year ever, because Legends Arceus and BDSP both sold so much, it showed that Pokemon unironically ignores common principles with games. "Don't make your games compete."

Why does Nintendo space games out by months? To not allow games to capitalize on each other's sales, so Splatoon 3's hype does not overshadow Xenoblade 3, or vice versa. What's the point of releasing two games next to each other when most consumers can only grab one?

And then Pokemon in 2021/2022 showed TPC that they simply don't compete with their own games. Both will sell.

What I'm saying is, don't prepare for less crunch, prepare for more. Prepare for more games in less time. Why only release one game per year? The reasons before are now gone. Capitalizing on their own sales? They just sold 3 games in a 365-day span, and all sold incredibly well, Scarlet and Violet is not selling less because consumers are satisfied with the previous products. And if they could, they would 100% launch another game earlier this year before the fiscal year ends, to get even more for their investors. For TPC this all happened mostly by accident, but next time they can be prepared. Legends Arceus wasn't even going to exist if Dex cut didn't make dev time quicker (it is true,, I can explain in another comment, there is also a Game Freak GDC conference. TLDR: Every time developers upload a copy of the project it used to take hours, so Dex cut + switching to AWS cut down on dev time immensely, enough to be able to work on two projects.)

The gloves are off. What you and I see as no excuse to not delay games, is to corporate Japan and America the opposite: There is now no excuse to not release several games within the same year, unless it is a literal impossibility. This logo will strike fear into the hearts of the people who simply want to help make things for something they grew up with.
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The goal of capitalism is not to make a lot of money. It is to make the most money. To make the most money in the same amount of time, and to continuously beat your previous best, to make investments into your company more fruitful. While I want to hate TPC because of how they abuse their developer's talents and consumers, I cannot find myself to be angry at the player, rather than the game. The game industry sucks, and every company wants to be TPC. The only reason things like Madden are not similarly so broken is because the scope is smaller, and even then sometimes those games release very broken.
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And IIRC 2023 report has already made more.
 
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I don't know why people thought that Gamefreak would care about 6v6 Singles balance given the fact that Baton Pass not only still exists, but has had its distribution actively expanded over the past two generations.
These can be explained by 1) changes for the sake of (perceived or actual) imbalances in BSS and 2) widespread movepool cleanup efforts (which have targeted a number of non-problematic moves as well). If they really pay attention to competitive 6v6 Singles balance at all, then their understanding of it is pretty bad (like the removal of Pursuit, which did not have a huge amount of support at the time even if there is praise for it in retrospect, when Arena Trap and Shadow Tag are infinitely more broken).

Also, if they cared about 6v6 Singles, they wouldn't have a 20 minute timer for a challenge-only format. It's so bad that it's been noted even in casual settings that it makes battles extremely difficult to complete.
It is fair to note that I have heard Scald was a very common Water move even in VGC Doubles due to not having Spread/Partner reduction on top of the Burn obviously being relevant if it hits. While VGC's faster time-to-faint probably means it wasn't QUITE as dumb, I could still be convinced GF thought Scald was showing up too much and would take the chance to trim down its pool during the "retained moves" overhaul of Gen 9. Like even if they don't remove it, it strikes me as a move that should be more limited than "every non-Ice Water Type" both offensive and defensive.
 
I mentioned it before, but Snow also drops Moonlight down to 1/4. Not only will Snow possibly be good as a stand-alone, but one of the best pivots in the format sets it almost every time it switched out.
Not to mention drill is back so sand will be much more prevalent
 
I don't know why people thought that Gamefreak would care about 6v6 Singles balance given the fact that Baton Pass not only still exists, but has had its distribution actively expanded over the past two generations.
But heavy duty boots makes me think they sort of do, that item has almost no use in doubles but is a main staple in singles since entry hazards are the most used moves. Also the pp lowering on healing moves seems more oriented for singles since VGC battles tend to end in few turns.
 

uppa

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But heavy duty boots makes me think they sort of do, that item has almost no use in doubles but is a main staple in singles since entry hazards are the most used moves. Also the pp lowering on healing moves seems more oriented for singles since VGC battles tend to end in few turns.
Reminder that BSS exists and is popular in japan. They “””balance””” singles stuff towards that.
 
For returning, looks Mandibuzz, Gliscor, Clefable have the best chance of becoming OU.

On another note for the metagame, does anyone find it boring that offense and hyper-offense is always filled with Kingambit, Bascalibur and Iron Valiant, Dragapult? I wish it was more creative. Just my 2 cents. I don't think Teal Mask returning Pokemon will stop these Pokemon either.
 
For returning, looks Mandibuzz, Gliscor, Clefable have the best chance of becoming OU.

On another note for the metagame, does anyone find it boring that offense and hyper-offense is always filled with Kingambit, Bascalibur and Iron Valiant, Dragapult? I wish it was more creative. Just my 2 cents. I don't think Teal Mask returning Pokemon will stop these Pokemon either.
Gliscor and Clefable for sure are going to be OU or UU with an OU niche at absolute worst, even with their movepools cut. Mandibuzz, I'm genuinely excited to see where it lands. I like that this wack meta has given it such a large shift.

As for the lack of variety, that just speaks to how strong these options are. Really, SVOU just has an issue of the the top few mons in the tier being balanced against each other but drastically stronger than everything else in the tier.
 

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the problem with mandibuzz is it still loses 1v1 to nasty plot ghold
0 Atk Mandibuzz Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 152-182 (48.2 - 57.7%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO

+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 248 HP / 152+ SpD Mandibuzz: 357-420 (84.3 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Fair point. Looks like it needs to run 100 atk evs just to 3HKO it. Even then it isn’t 100% guaranteed.

100 Atk Mandibuzz Knock Off vs. 196 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 120-144 (32.9 - 39.5%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO

Any of Gen 7-8 OU defoggers would wipe the floor off of Ghold, lets hope Gliscor or the legendary birds get Defog back.
 

uppa

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bu-GWUHHHH??!?!!? The setup sweeper benefits from being able to flip its type chart at will? This will fit perfectly into my Screens Grimm + Tera fairy Gambit + Tera steel Bax + Tera flying Roaring Moon + Tera flying Sneasler + Tera poison Cresselia + Tera ghost Valiant + Tera normal Dragonite + Tera dark Zamazenta + Tera ghost Hilligant + Tera grass Volcarona + Tera bug Ceruledge + Tera steel Mew + Tera ice Regieleki hyper offense team!
 
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