Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[DiscoDucky]

People would actually have to use good Darkrai sets though, not the bad HDB 4 Attacks Darkrai set that Vert put out there. That set basically eschews Darkrai's main strength, which is an extremely powerful wallbreaker. Anything can be made to look balanced if you promote a set that is heavily limiting its potential.

The sets used don't really matter. If you're running enough tours/playing enough games, the tour results and diffusion of metagame knowledge (albeit tribally) will eventually yield not only effective Darkrai sets in OU, but more importantly metagame response to Darkrai.

Either way, I think Darkrai retest should mostly be a DLC2 action. By then, OU quickbans + suspects will stabilize a metagame such that we can accurately see the effect of unbanning a Pokemon i.e. Darkrai

 

[escarlata]

So what happened is I played a few games, got destroyed by Firepon, slapped on my patented trademark pending defensive Gyarados thinking that that would be enough, only to realize that Firepon 2HKOs after SD anyway.

For context, defensive Gyarados was something that was able to deal with Palafin and Chien-Pao of all things, and this gremlin comes out of nowhere and decided it would be funny if it can just 2HKO it with a resisted move.

I haven’t really played enough games in the new meta to make a firm stand myself if other mons deserve to be banned. But I won’t be surprised to see Firepon getting the boot real soon.

Edit: speaking of Gyarados, my boy finally has Scald woo

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

but more importantly metagame response to Darkrai.

the metagame response in question:

 

[Avira]

Ogerpon-Hearthflame is ridiculous. A Pokemon having no defensive counterplay while having a respectable speed tier and respectable bulk is usually banworthy. The only way to beat it is to offensively outplay it with faster Pokemon and priority. It should be the next quickban if there is one, and then we can start suspecting any other Pokemon that are still problematic after that.

 

[Blaze_101392]

I agree with the sentiment that retests should be done after DLC2 drops. This meta is super transient, lasting for about 10-14 weeks, and we should really have a better idea of how things will ACTUALLY be with the final DLC drop before any long term planning should be done. And yea, that sucks since the games will be a year old at that time, but between more paradox Pokemon and another legendary, new moves and possibly more returning moves, and the new Tera Type things will be very different in the not too distant future.

 

[tr8orsrequiem]

Ogerpon-Hearthflame is ridiculous. A Pokemon having no defensive counterplay while having a respectable speed tier and respectable bulk is usually banworthy. The only way to beat it is to offensively outplay it with faster Pokemon and priority. It should be the next quickban if there is one, and then we can start suspecting any other Pokemon that are still problematic after that.

Exactly this. When a Pokemon's only defensive counterplay is, on stall, to sack a mon to force it to tera and then wall it with a very specific tera (that it can counter) on Dondozo , that's a massive problem. It's gotta go. Your only options are to either kill it with faster mons/priority or to do that one very specific counterplay (that may end up fucking you over anyways if they've built around it, which isn't hard, you just need to build your team such that you have a way to beat both Torn-T and Gliscor).

 

[Magcargo]

Ogerpon-Hearthflame is ridiculous. A Pokemon having no defensive counterplay while having a respectable speed tier and respectable bulk is usually banworthy. The only way to beat it is to offensively outplay it with faster Pokemon and priority. It should be the next quickban if there is one, and then we can start suspecting any other Pokemon that are still problematic after that.

Technically it does have defensive counterplay. I saw Foufakirby mention Tera Fire Tusk on discord and some stall teams I stole (I think from Highv0ltag3) were running stuff like Tera Dragon Dondozo which can stave it off ok. Nonetheless, I feel its answers are a bit too limited / Tera Reliant and it can run away with games quite easily + has good self sustain with Horn Leech and its OK bulk. Admittingly, the Stealth Rock weakness is a bit of an issue, but its tango partner Tusk does a fine job keeping them off the field. I feel a mold breaker Grass-Type in this metagame is a bit much considering the best defensive Pokemon are stuff with Unaware like Dondozo. This isn't even mentioning the fact that it gets Intripid Sword from Tera, which jacks up its power to insane levels vs everything else, which is especially scary considering its speed (though I think it might make it more managable for certain teams since it loses Mold Breaker).

I think it MIGHT need some more time since part of the reason I am struggling w/ it could be a teambuilding / skill issue, but nonetheless, I do feel that it deserves the QB Hammer the most currently out of the new Pokemon.

 

[JunkoAJ]

Because it's on the survey, meaning it's a distinct possibility that the council doesn't consider to be too insane (why they didnt put skymin on there, or ridiculous things like giraA or arc bug)

As far as I'm aware, things only get put on the survey when there is a large amount of support/discussion from the community, and Darkrai is the only Uber that is seriously having a discussion to come down right now.

I don't think that "improving the tier" is an appropriate benchmark for unbanning a Pokemon. That statement hinges on hypotheticals and historical knowledge that's hard to explicitly validate. Maybe a couple of smaller (unofficial) tournaments where Darkrai is legal could provide some evidence of its level of brokenness in OU. Even if you elect to unban it, we still have guardrails to make sure that explicitly broken things are addressed (either through community surveys, quickban votes, and/or suspect tests).

I disagree, we absolutely have to consider what it would add to the tier if it was to come down, just because it isn't good in Ubers doesn't mean that it will be a good addition to the OU meta, it can still be completely overwhelming.

 

[BlackKnight_Gawain]

Haven't had much time to play OU or read this thread as it developed but I'm super curious to know where people stand on Ogerpon formes. I'm seeing the Fire one be good, maybe too good for the tier — but how would people rank the rest/describe their use?

Bonus question: what's a mon that's been relatively less used/hyped so far you've enjoyed trying/want to try (cc: Morkal .......need your input here the most!)

 

[tommytt22]

Haven't had much time to play OU or read this thread as it developed but I'm super curious to know where people stand on Ogerpon formes. I'm seeing the Fire one be good, maybe too good for the tier — but how would people rank the rest/describe their use?

Bonus question: what's a mon that's been relatively less used/hyped so far you've enjoyed trying/want to try (cc: Morkal .......need your input here the most!)

Ive been using cornerstone. Its stab combo is super potent against meta threats, and sturdy is a niche pick. For example you can setup a swords dance on tusks close combat, and heal back to nearly full with OHKO horn leech next turn. zapdos and moltres get fried by rock ivy cudgel. Manaphy by grass coverage. AND where walking wake can switch in on hearthflame, its a guaranteed 2hko from cornerstone
252 Atk Cornerstone Mask Ogerpon-Cornerstone Ivy Cudgel vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake: 201-237 (58.7 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I usually lead with it since people dont like to bring their offensive threats into the field while hes there. you can also ohko hearthflame which is neat

 

[MattC (Banned)]

I hope Game Freak makes Dark Void 80% Accuracy again with a patch update just so everyone can finally shut up about bringing it down to OU.

I find it hard to believe people are actually considering Darkrai. Yea Void nerf kinda sucks (Smeargle moment) but like... it's still Darkrai. 70/90/90 bulk for a mon with 135 special attack, 125 speed, and Nasty Plot is like... well at this point it's ok. I totally get why people are fine with it, but I don't think it'll get retested yet. The metagame atm is just wild

Ogerpon-Hearthflame is ridiculous. A Pokemon having no defensive counterplay while having a respectable speed tier and respectable bulk is usually banworthy. The only way to beat it is to offensively outplay it with faster Pokemon and priority. It should be the next quickban if there is one, and then we can start suspecting any other Pokemon that are still problematic after that.

Ogerpon Hearthflame as I explained in an earlier post is an unironically cold hearted bitch. Mold breaker with all the perks it has is just... nasty offensively. Grass and fire isn't a bad typing combo offensively but at this rate, we need to run like Hippowdon or other weather to counter it. But the problem is that Firepon has a coverage move for it. Matter of fact, it has a move for everything. I'm just not gonna say the council will look at it but in a week or 2 (they will) but it might get an emergency ban like Baxcalibur

 

[Hiddenfreezer]

I would even say Grass Ogerpon is slightly underrated. I tried Band on it and it feels like Galar Darmanitan after you Tera.

Of course it is not superior anymore after tue mask effects are known but still, good design

 

[That_Dwayneee]

Haven't had much time to play OU or read this thread as it developed but I'm super curious to know where people stand on Ogerpon formes. I'm seeing the Fire one be good, maybe too good for the tier — but how would people rank the rest/describe their use?

Fire is easily the best one, being fast and respectfully bulky, combined with the fact that sd, mold breaker, and its movepool gives it no defensive checks is insane (yes dnite and kommo o get 2hkod without investment)

Bonus question: what's a mon that's been relatively less used/hyped so far you've enjoyed trying/want to try (cc: Morkal .......need your input here the most!)

Mamoswine is honestly terrifying.

Keeping up its streak as an anti meta mon in gen 9 ou mamo can leverage its ice stab to break down entire teams that give ou mainstays trouble. For instance ting-lu + zapdos cores that stack hazards and punish great tusk’s spin are much more limited as icicle crash takes them both out, garchomp is forced out by the threat of ice shard, as is enamorus and other chipped sweepers. Ground typing is also incredible for blocking opposing volt switches from zapdos and rotom w in niche scenarios as well as taking out all typing based resists to ice.

It’s obvious why it isn’t used much, it’s a slow bulky ice type, a physical attacker that faces all the same downfalls of other ones (besides great tusk) without the same game ending potential, and a ground type that doesn’t spin. Still though, it places itself in an incredible position to take advantage of common threats in the meta yet again.

 

[Pookacat2008]

it must be dipplin, i know it

A certain single Pokemon had received an overwhelming amount of support throughout the thread and the survey to the point that we are conducting an emergency vote on it.

Multiple other Pokemon are receiving noteworthy amounts of support as well and we will continue to monitor those developments in hopes of proceeding with a standard council vote (non-emergency) in the coming days.

All hail darkrai! Long live the king!

 

[yomaalt]

Haven't had much time to play OU or read this thread as it developed but I'm super curious to know where people stand on Ogerpon formes. I'm seeing the Fire one be good, maybe too good for the tier — but how would people rank the rest/describe their use?

Bonus question: what's a mon that's been relatively less used/hyped so far you've enjoyed trying/want to try (cc: Morkal .......need your input here the most!)

The current community consensus seems to be Firepon >>>> Rockpon > Waterpon >> Grasspon, and while I agree with the placements (sorry plainpon), I don't quite agree with the disparities between them. It may be cause I accidentally built a team that's typically fine (Assuming I don't goof around and weaken them all too early) against firepon (Prio + powerful attackers that deny it entry, as well as a few mons that can come in on the SD/resisted attacks), but I can understand the struggle others seem to face. But I'm ngl, I've lost to grasspon once too often, as that sudden speed boost paired with an SD, grass STAB in cudgel or leech, and typically high horsepower for some steel/fire/poison coverage has messed me up.


A mon that's been less used? Iron Moth (Although, idk if that counts as much anymore.) I've been loving this thing, as if it gets fiery dances up, most teams absolutely crumble to it. It also invalidates nearly every ogerpon form with sludge wave, and decimates hail's setter + hard chunks it abusers as well as abuses sun's weather for stronger dances. I've been running toxic on it (mainly cause gambit kinda forces a status move) but it does help on cases where you're about to die/gambit decides for some reason to drop the tera and boom , they're timed. Great mon, y'all should use it (I will snipe you with trailblaze rockpon soon enough if it becomes too common though, lol)

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Haven't had much time to play OU or read this thread as it developed but I'm super curious to know where people stand on Ogerpon formes. I'm seeing the Fire one be good, maybe too good for the tier — but how would people rank the rest/describe their use?

Bonus question: what's a mon that's been relatively less used/hyped so far you've enjoyed trying/want to try (cc: Morkal .......need your input here the most!)

i haven't actually tried it yet but i really want someone to make dipplin work. with eviolite, it's only marginally less physically bulky than ting-lu, and it gets recovery and dragon tail. i'm certain that there's a niche for it somewhere

 

[Some random freak]

Haven't had much time to play OU or read this thread as it developed but I'm super curious to know where people stand on Ogerpon formes. I'm seeing the Fire one be good, maybe too good for the tier — but how would people rank the rest/describe their use?

Bonus question: what's a mon that's been relatively less used/hyped so far you've enjoyed trying/want to try (cc: Morkal .......need your input here the most!)

• Ogrepon-H is insane. I thought its typing and inability to hold HDB would hold it back but the combination of its STABs, coverage and ability make it one of the best offensive mons in the tier, possibly even suspect worthy.
• Ogrepon-W is great on rain and is one of the better Manaphy checks we have currently since it can switch in on Tail Glow or Scald/Surf and either threaten it out with Grass STAB or Encore
• Ogrepon-C is a bit more niche but having an essentially perfectly accurate Stone Edge as well as good coverage and boosting options means it will never be bad. Plus it can be a good lead with Spikes and Sturdy.
• Base Ogrepon is probably the weakest since it has to compete with Meowscarada and has doesn't get any bonus STAB with Ivy Cudgel.

As for a less hyped mon, I've been theorising that Brambleghast might have a small niche now thanks to getting Poltergiest. Gholdengo has to now fear being OHKO'd if it wants to block Rapid Spin

252 Atk Brambleghast Poltergeist vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 344-408 (109.2 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And Hatterene has to be careful switching in to bounce back Spikes

252 Atk Brambleghast Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Hatterene: 254-302 (79.8 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

On top of this, Brambleghast completely walls Zapdos as Wind Rider makes it immune to both Hurricane and Heat Wave while it resists Electric and it can be a nuisance for the likes of Ting-Lu as it spin any hazards and heals back with Strength Sap.

 

[FuecocoBoi]

Reminder that Ogrepon gets Fallen 2 after you Tera
this thing is an absolute beast

 

[Bugboy]

I would even say Grass Ogerpon is slightly underrated. I tried Band on it and it feels like Galar Darmanitan after you Tera.

Of course it is not superior anymore after tue mask effects are known but still, good design

People are underrating the shit out of the grass one. Band + speed boost when you tera is kinda bonkers.

you don’t realize how powerful the embody aspect utility is until you try it out. Having the option to Tera and give it +1 speed at any time is game winning flexibility.

 

[pika pal]

On top of this, Brambleghast completely walls Zapdos as Wind Rider makes it immune to both Hurricane and Heat Wave while it resists Electric and it can be a nuisance for the likes of Ting-Lu as it spin any hazards and heals back with Strength Sap.

It surprises me reading this that Strength Sap recovery never comes up as a reason to 0-ATK your non-Physical Pokemon, as compared to Confusion Damage this has a more tangible effect on several battles since (in lower tiers at least) it's a move several mons would have multiple reasons to click (Debuffing a checked opponent or their form of recovery)

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

It surprises me reading this that Strength Sap recovery never comes up as a reason to 0-ATK your non-Physical Pokemon, as compared to Confusion Damage this has a more tangible effect on several battles since (in lower tiers at least) it's a move several mons would have multiple reasons to click (Debuffing a checked opponent or their form of recovery)

it's because strength sap has never been on a widely used top-tier threat yet. the closest we've gotten have been eviolite gorsola, which died when gen 8 home brought knock off back in full force, and polteageist, which is niche in ou and only runs it sometimes

 

[arnimacarni]

Reminder that Ogrepon gets Fallen 2 after you Tera
this thing is an absolute beast

You mean as Kingambit Supreme Overload this counts for two?!

 

[Just A Shroom God]

I know this is like 12 pages too late but I'm doing it anyway

Bax: 5
GOT BANNED LESGO

Manaphy: 3
Honestly, just another breaker that completely destroys balance. What else is new? Tera means that balance's offensive can't even reliable revenge it, but that goes for every pokemon at this point lol. Take Heart sets might've been good if there had been any stall at all to do it on. Becomes kinda a big threat under veil, I've seen it pick up 3~ kills before even no Tera. I wouldn't be opposed to a ban but not the highest priority

Ursaluna-BM: 2
An excellent choice and calm mind user, can come in reliably on most neutral physical attacks due to great bulk and blow something up with Blood Moon. Probably not broken because of low spdef, speed, and Blood Moon secondary effect, but I wouldn't be completely surprised to see it go as behind screens it can claim 2 or 3 kills per game

Ogerpon-Hearthflame: 5
Literally Zacian but rocks weak. Knock Off beats all of its common checks, just some faster than others. People seem to believe that being walled by a specific few things based on your 4th moveslot and being soft checked by random Tera Fires makes this thing balanced. Completely demolishes defense and is pretty good vs offensive due to servicable bulk and 110 speed tier (the amount of atails that have stayed in on my Cudgel is actually fucking hilarious). Ban ASAP.

Ninetales-A: 1
OK, so here's the thing. I feel like people are overrating the ability of this to set screens because of Bax. Think of the usual screen setup using a different setter. Usually, you click the screen that counters the pokemon you're facing at the moment. Next turn, you click the other screen. Now you're at the same point as you would be with Ninetales, but 1 less turn on the screen you set up first, and at 1 more free turn for your opponent. What makes Ninetales good rn is the snow boost letting Bax snowball too easily. Otherwise, you'd rather use faster and 4less exploitable screen setters like Pult, Azelf, even Froslass or smth. Sure, the extra turn can be damning, but often these pokemon have tools to prevent immediate setup in Curse, Taunt, just having strong STAB they can afford to invest in thanks to Sash, Wisp, Encore, etc.

Darkrai: 1
see this post for basically my thoughts on this

Urshifus: 1
lolno

 

[FuecocoBoi]

You mean as Kingambit Supreme Overload this counts for two?!

Yes. It gets 1.2 times move power on ALL of its moves when Terastallized. Just a bit of trolling

 

[Harmless]

What manaphy set are you guys running? I've hardly seen it and idk how to ev it. Granted, my elo isn't great but the few I've seen mostly weren't able to get going with enough hp/speed. Is max speed worth it?