Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[JunkoAJ]

I just want to know what we gain in the meta by unbanning Darkrai, what does it add to OU, does the meta improve by it coming down? Just because it's a bad Uber doesn't mean that it's suitable for OU.

Zamazenta-H was able to come down because it was bad and people could see it as a bit of a check to Gambit (at the time) and Valiant.

 

[MrE]

For one, it requires Tera to not be forced onto Electric STAB, one of the most checkable STABs in the game. Two, it is significantly slower. Three, it has a Flying-Type that makes it Rocks weak and nothing to use it with. Its only Flying moves are still Acrobatics and Fly.

Darkrai only has dark stab which is just as easily checkable as electric, very few successful teams don't pack a fight, fairy or dark type. I mentioned that it's significantly slower but in UU terms it's still FAST and UU is weaker than OU and Thundy-T has higher special it's boosting off, yet it's fine down in UU. May I introduce you to the item heavy duty boots, rocks weak hasn't been a problem for it for 2 gens now.

f you read what I said you'd see where I said "Does this mean I'm saying getting Nasty Plot makes a Pokemon broken? God fucking no lol."

You literally say that nasty plot is one of the most broken moves in the game lmao go onto argue about how it breaks Darkrai and now you're saying comparably hard hitting mons (Thundy-T has 10bst more, the rest up to 10bst less), some with comparable bulk (none of whom are weak to mach punch btw) especially in the lower power levels of lower tiers aren't broken by the move despite being in weaker tiers. Tornadus with similar coverage is RUBL despite being 111 speed and 125 special for exam

But if you gave say, Iron Valiant Nasty Plot, it'd be Ubers with literally no question. A Pokemon like Thundurus-T isn't broken with Nasty Plot because everything else is holding it down. Needing Tera to reliably hit one of the most commonly used competitive types ever is a massive downside.

No, giving Valiant Nasty Plot wouldn't break it, what breaks it and why it's already broken (IMO) is booster energy. Thundy-T doesn't actually need tera to hit 'one of the most commonly used competitive types ever' because it has grass knot...

Meanwhile Darkrai is way faster, Dark is a fine STAB and it has all the coverage it needs. Thundurus-T is a way more flawed Pokemon at its core which is why it gets Nasty Plot, it'd be pretty bad without it.

Right but speed is relative, Tundy T is outsped by very little in UU, yet still isn't a problem down there despite nasty plot and boltbeam coverage.

 

[UnusualBoy]

I just want to know what we gain in the meta by unbanning Darkrai, what does it add to OU, does the meta improve by it coming down? Just because it's a bad Uber doesn't mean that it's suitable for OU.

Zamazenta-H was able to come down because it was bad and people could see it as a bit of a check to Gambit (at the time) and Valiant.

MTE. They want it in OU for basically no reason, he does nothing that other pokemon cannot do and it's probably going to cause a mess in the tier with all the tools it has.

 

[YubelVT]

You talk rubbish here, Thundy-T has 145 special, nasty plot and thanks to tera this gen boltbeam coverage yet it's stuck in UU and not broken. Whilst it's significantly slower than Darkrai in UU it's only outsped by 7 (uu by usage) mons, many of those mons don't hit Thundy-T particularly hard and defensively UU is a LOT weaker than OU so the 145 is more significant.

If nasty plot on (relatively) fast special attackers was such a problem Thundy-T would be super broken this gen with 145 special + nasty plot + bolt beam. Likewise other nasty plot mons like Gengar, H-Zoroark, Hydreigon, Azelf and Tornadus wouldn't be stuck in UU or lower.

Hi it's the resident thundurus-therian propagandist here. Thundurus-Therian's achilles heel (and that of most of the UU Nasty Plotters for that matter) is that speed tier. While your assessment is mostly correct, Darkrai is considerably faster than all of them. H-Zoroark's speed tier of 350 is notably slower than iron valiant and it speed ties with other, better special attackers like Iron Moth. While yes, Darkrai is still slower than a boosted 350 or 364, he's still much faster than them unboosted, much stronger than them, and able to punish mons that can't really do much to it staying in to burn sleep with a not insignificant amount of chip. Yes Darkrai is frail as fuck and can't switch into much, but an intelligent Darkrai pilot knows this and will play with this in mind. There is no reason to unban Darkrai

 

[Mimikyu Stardust]

I just want to know what we gain in the meta by unbanning Darkrai, what does it add to OU, does the meta improve by it coming down? Just because it's a bad Uber doesn't mean that it's suitable for OU.

Zamazenta-H was able to come down because it was bad and people could see it as a bit of a check to Gambit (at the time) and Valiant.

The meta right now revolves around HO like Veil and Gliscor Fat/Spikestack. Like i said in my original post darkrai is a great middle ground of breaking power and speed, it can help compress the roles of stuff like hex dragapult and enamorus. It can help put a dent into Gliscor Spikestack teams while being able to outspeed threats on HO teams and clean them like Gholdengo, Non boosted valiant and ogerpon. it is also a great check to kingambit. So Darkrai is just a great offensive glue that can check a lot of stuff and beat a lot of stuff without being too overwhelming, like how in pre dlc zamazenta helps againts Baxcalibur, Samurott and Kingambit on offense, while providing a fast breaker that can beat ting-lu and threaten moltres. It's still weak to stuff like iron valiant and zapdos, but can tweak its set to beat those threats but make it vulnerable to other things. So Zama was a great glue for teams that needs check to certain threats, speed and some defensive utility without being too overwhelming.

Darkrai does all these thing without being too overwhelming like zamazenta, while it can help dent gliscor spikestack it can still be played around without too much trouble, while it can help clean offensive teams it still struggles early in the game. It has its consistent checks like Ting-Lu, Fezandipiti and Zamazenta but can tweak its set to beat those pokemon but make it vulnerable to other things.

Zamazenta-H was dropped because it was a weak uber that has been nerfed, and people only noticed its pros in hindsight, i don't see why we can't Drop Darkrai with the same reason as Zama

 

[tr8orsrequiem]

The meta right now revolves around HO like Veil and Gliscor Fat/Spikestack. Like i said in my original post darkrai is a great middle ground of breaking power and speed, it can help compress the roles of stuff like hex dragapult and enamorus. It can help put a dent into Gliscor Spikestack teams while being able to outspeed threats on HO teams and clean them like Gholdengo, Non boosted valiant and ogerpon. it is also a great check to kingambit. So Darkrai is just a great offensive glue that can check a lot of stuff and beat a lot of stuff without being too overwhelming, like how in pre dlc zamazenta helps againts Baxcalibur, Samurott and Kingambit on offense, while providing a fast breaker that can beat ting-lu and threaten moltres. It's still weak to stuff like iron valiant and zapdos, but can tweak its set to beat those threats but make it vulnerable to other things. So Zama was a great glue for teams that needs check to certain threats, speed and some defensive utility without being too overwhelming.

Darkrai does all these thing without being too overwhelming like zamazenta, while it can help dent gliscor spikestack it can still be played around without too much trouble, while it can help clean offensive teams it still struggles early in the game. It has its consistent checks like Ting-Lu, Fezandipiti and Zamazenta but can tweak its set to beat those pokemon but make it vulnerable to other things.

Zamazenta-H was dropped because it was a weak uber that has been nerfed, and people only noticed its pros in hindsight, i don't see why we can't Drop Darkrai with the same reason as Zama

I don't see why we need to drop Darkrai now when there are far more important things to do that can/will improve the tier, i.e. ban ogrepon-hackerman/manaphy. Shouldn't we just wait until DLC2 instead of performing experiments on a meta that's as transient as this one is? We barely have time for more than one suspect test as is, why waste it on Darkrai returning when that's not even guaranteed to make the tier better?

 

[Finchinator]

Survey is up: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-tiering-surveys.3711911/#post-9789087

 

[awyp]

Survey is up: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-tiering-surveys.3711911/#post-9789087

Why is Gliscor even being asked about?

 

[ant4456]

I'm writing in Gholdengo on any new survey until it's put on the survey because it literally impacts the entire tier and should always be on the radar. Constantly. 24/7.

 

[tr8orsrequiem]

I'm writing in Gholdengo on any new survey until it's put on the survey because it literally impacts the entire tier and should always be on the radar. Constantly. 24/7.

The problem is that most people don't consider it a problem because it's not so much the mon itself that causes issues (i.e. it's not necessarily sweeping entire teams like bax/kingambit/regieleki), it's its effect on the metagame as a whole that's a problem. Hazards being omnipresent and effectively unremovable if your opponent has a Gholdengo is the problem, but most people don't see it that way.

 

[Finchinator]

Hearth is a 5 for me and the only thing I’d ban right now. It’s incredibly limiting due to a lack of standard checks/counters. It can be revenge killed and Tera’d around, so this at least makes it playable and would make me ok with a suspect if there’s not enough support to ban. But this is a breaker carved from the heavens honestly. Mold Breaker is super underrated prior to Tera on it and allows for some serious matchup flips, but also post Tera it’s unreasonably strong with sufficient coverage, boosting, and general offensive profile to do major damage.

Manaphy and Ninetales are 2-3 to me. Veil is still awesome, but not quite as lame/broken as initially with Bax. Definitely open to a suspect and want to hear from others, but Mana has been a bit underwhelming due to some 4MSS and being slower than 2-3 things we see on most offenses, making it limited in terms of how much it can do in some games. I also think the set mixes with Mana continue to evolve and I want to see where this leads it. That could be a sign of health or a sign that it’s not hit its full potential yet and could be a problem in the future. As for Ninetales, it’s obviously controversial rn and I’m not afraid to act on it, but don’t think the tier is as egregiously screwed by Veil as day 1, so gonna wait a little probably. Hopefully things continue to adapt.

Wellspring is a 2 probably. It’s arguably more common than Hearth for me in the builder, but it’s the epitome of a very good Pokemon that’s not quite game breaking atm I’d say. Love it’s addition to the tier, but I find countering it to be very possible and only a little limiting.

Blood Moon is a 3 and arguably approaching a 4. I got my eyes on it as it’s so strong and CM sets are surprisingly durable. It is able to claim multiple kills too often and straddles the line of being too good. Want some more time maybeee, but could be broken.

Gliscor I want more time on. Don’t see it as broken, but I want to use more sets on it. I will reserve comment for now, but I don’t see it as quickban worthy I don’t believe. I initially think 1 or maybe 2, but a lot of others are saying they think it’s an unfair Pokemon and I’ll at least hear them out.

 

[Finchinator]

Why is Gliscor even being asked about?

Idk why this has to be drilled into everyone’s head every single survey, but I include anything supported by any council member to be included. It’s best to be inclusive rather than exclusive. If they wish to elaborate, they very much can and I hope will, but worst case it doesn’t get support and even that’s still valuable data to prove we can focus elsewhere.

It’s annoying when I work hard on these surveys and instead of productive discussion the kneejerk reaction is this.

 

[FuecocoBoi]

Hearth is a 5 for me and the only thing I’d ban right now. It’s incredibly limiting due to a lack of standard checks/counters. It can be revenge killed and Tera’d around, so this at least makes it playable and would make me ok with a suspect if there’s not enough support to ban. But this is a breaker carved from the heavens honestly. Mold Breaker is super underrated prior to Tera on it and allows for some serious matchup flips, but also post Tera it’s unreasonably strong with sufficient coverage, boosting, and general offensive profile to do major damage.

Manaphy and Ninetales are 2-3 to me. Veil is still awesome, but not quite as lame/broken as initially with Bax. Definitely open to a suspect and want to hear from others, but Mana has been a bit underwhelming due to some 4MSS and being slower than 2-3 things we see on most offenses, making it limited in terms of how much it can do in some games. I also think the set mixes with Mana continue to evolve and I want to see where this leads it. That could be a sign of health or a sign that it’s not hit its full potential yet and could be a problem in the future. As for Ninetales, it’s obviously controversial rn and I’m not afraid to act on it, but don’t think the tier is as egregiously screwed by Veil as day 1, so gonna wait a little probably. Hopefully things continue to adapt.

Wellspring is a 2 probably. It’s arguably more common than Hearth for me in the builder, but it’s the epitome of a very good Pokemon that’s not quite game breaking atm I’d say. Love it’s addition to the tier, but I find countering it to be very possible and only a little limiting.

Blood Moon is a 3 and arguably approaching a 4. I got my eyes on it as it’s so strong and CM sets are surprisingly durable. It is able to claim multiple kills too often and straddles the line of being too good. Want some more time maybeee, but could be broken.

Gliscor I want more time on. Don’t see it as broken, but I want to use more sets on it. I will reserve comment for now, but I don’t see it as quickban worthy I don’t believe. I initially think 1 or maybe 2, but a lot of others are saying they think it’s an unfair Pokemon and I’ll at least hear them out.

ban lando before gliscor

 

[tr8orsrequiem]

Hearth is a 5 for me and the only thing I’d ban right now. It’s incredibly limiting due to a lack of standard checks/counters. It can be revenge killed and Tera’d around, so this at least makes it playable and would make me ok with a suspect if there’s not enough support to ban. But this is a breaker carved from the heavens honestly. Mold Breaker is super underrated prior to Tera on it and allows for some serious matchup flips, but also post Tera it’s unreasonably strong with sufficient coverage, boosting, and general offensive profile to do major damage.

Manaphy and Ninetales are 2-3 to me. Veil is still awesome, but not quite as lame/broken as initially with Bax. Definitely open to a suspect and want to hear from others, but Mana has been a bit underwhelming due to some 4MSS and being slower than 2-3 things we see on most offenses, making it limited in terms of how much it can do in some games. I also think the set mixes with Mana continue to evolve and I want to see where this leads it. That could be a sign of health or a sign that it’s not hit its full potential yet and could be a problem in the future. As for Ninetales, it’s obviously controversial rn and I’m not afraid to act on it, but don’t think the tier is as egregiously screwed by Veil as day 1, so gonna wait a little probably. Hopefully things continue to adapt.

Wellspring is a 2 probably. It’s arguably more common than Hearth for me in the builder, but it’s the epitome of a very good Pokemon that’s not quite game breaking atm I’d say. Love it’s addition to the tier, but I find countering it to be very possible and only a little limiting.

Blood Moon is a 3 and arguably approaching a 4. I got my eyes on it as it’s so strong and CM sets are surprisingly durable. It is able to claim multiple kills too often and straddles the line of being too good. Want some more time maybeee, but could be broken.

Gliscor I want more time on. Don’t see it as broken, but I want to use more sets on it. I will reserve comment for now, but I don’t see it as quickban worthy I don’t believe. I initially think 1 or maybe 2, but a lot of others are saying they think it’s an unfair Pokemon and I’ll at least hear them out.

I agree with most of this but I really don't understand why Gliscor is even on here. Literally who's complaining about it? I certainly haven't seen anything other than salty 1200s scrubs, but they whine about everything, so their opinion is irrelevant.

We get one good defensive Pokemon that can actually make some progress and it's already on the tiering survey? Have we forgotten what it's like to play a tier with actual defensive options so much that a single versatile defensive Pokemon with recovery feels broken now?

 

[Zanz5798]

I agree with most of this but I really don't understand why Gliscor is even on here. Literally who's complaining about it? I certainly haven't seen anything other than salty 1200s scrubs, but they whine about everything, so their opinion is irrelevant.

We get one good defensive Pokemon that can actually make some progress and it's already on the tiering survey? Have we forgotten what it's like to play a tier with actual defensive options so much that a single versatile defensive Pokemon with recovery feels broken now?

Might want to read Finch's next post.

 

[tr8orsrequiem]

Might want to read Finch's next post.

I started writing that before Finch posted his next post. I still don't think that's a good reason for it being on the tiering survey. I would really appreciate if the council member who suggested that would provide some reasoning, because as it stands right now there's about five other mons I would've put on the tiering survey before Gliscor, and I don't even think half of them would or should even get suspect tested, let alone banned.

 

[Eeveeto]

Heat Ogerpon: 5.
Gliscor: 5
Manaphy: 5
Waterpon: 3
Bear: 3
Ninetales: 1
Won't elaborate

 

[Harmless]

As for my votes...

Hearthflame is a 5. That pokemon is crazy, don't need to elaborate. Bro just wins games on its own and can even go full zacian beast mode if it wants to. Nothing really takes hits from this well besides shit like tera fire corviknight and general rule of thumb if you have to say "oh well corviknight-" we have an issue (because it sucks)

Wellspring is a 2 for me. I've barely seen it and the times I have it wasn't as life ruining as hearthflame (high bar, but still). If anything it just seems like a vanilla strong pokemon. Not much to say on this one.

Manaphy and Ninetales are both a 1 for me. Manaphy is scary but with how fast everything is these days it can be a struggle for it to sweep safely. As finch said, 4mss is also a huge problem for it because it feels like you're always missing something important between all your moves. Not to mention that unlike firepon, it's not nearly as immediately threatening. Not super concerned. Ninetales is in the same boat as it. Strong but I don't think it's really problematic. Veil obviously makes anything better but nothing so far is nearly as broken under it as bax was. Maybe when someone is brave enough to crack out the swords dance beartic but until then, it's fine imo.

Ursaluna bloodmoon I voted 1 but to be honest I wasn't thinking about it at all. I've just been an ursaluna denier since day 1 so my bias carried over. With that said, it's definitely a big step up from regular ursafraud. It can't fit all of cm/vacuum wave/ep/bloodmoon whatever it's called/moonlight on the same set but it can be pretty devastating when it does get going. I'm still not fully sold on it but it's better than a 1 that's for sure.

Gliscor is a 1 be fr.

 

[MilkyWay]

Why is Gliscor even being asked about?

That was my thought too, but I also had the same initial thought when Kingambit was first put on a survey

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Gliscor thinks he's on the team

 

[ianlazerbeem]

Manaphy easiest 1 of my life, shit will be UUBL in 3 months

Why is Gliscor even being asked about?

Extremely difficult Mon to break and it gets to use spikes and swords dance while you're struggling to wear it down, single-handedly dominates the setup sweeping, hazards, and fat game and outclasses Pokémon like Ting-Lu, Landorus-T, and more

 

[Sulfurian]

Feels like a lot of gate keeping with ou and ubers. We don't retest ubers because "what does it add to a metagame" having more options could lead to more players and more attention to the tier. Not so much saying darkrai is good or bad but I'm saying the mindset of refusing retests, especially during this gap of the two dlcs, is a bit narrow-minded.

 

[FCKNfuego]

Stop comparing Darkrai to other Special Attackers in the tier with "similar stats" because there is one crucial tool that Darkrai has that they basically don't.

Nasty Plot.

One of the most broken moves in the game, and I am not kidding. The reason Nasty Plot has shit distribution (you can go check), is because it is a very broken setup move, and most Special Attackers are balanced around not being able to boost with Swords Dance or Dragon Dance like Physical Attackers.

With Physical Attackers you have things like the moves giving you recoil, lowering your stats, Intimidate!!!!, Flame Body / Static and more.

The Physical Attacker is almost always balanced around two things: The fact that it can setup easier with Swords Dance or Dragon Dance etc., and that it can then be checked by other means.

Special Attacks are inherently harder to check with the moves rarely having downsides beyond "low BP" which are usually made up for by their secondary effects with promote spamming. Shadow Ball defense drops, Scald burns, Discharge paralysis. While there are some Physical Attacks with hax (ie. Rock Slide), usually they aren't a big problem.

Essentially, most Special Attackers are balanced around not being able to boost twice in the same turn. Calm Mind for a lot of Pokemon is boosting a useless stat, even at +1 SpDef Iron Valiant is dying to most Special Attacks, so it's like fucking SWSH Zamazenta-C boosting with *Howl*. Enamorus as well, though the SpDef is a bit more useful it'd much more rather to get 2 boosts in one turn and just destroy the tier.

Walking Wake with Nasty Plot would have been a Quickban and that shouldn't even be a controversial statement. Protosynthesis speed -> giving it +2 -> now it can spam? Absurd.

Nasty Plot is unironically one of the most broken moves in the game solely because of how Special Attackers are designed. Does this mean I'm saying getting Nasty Plot makes a Pokemon broken? God fucking no lol. But if I took any OU Special Attacker in most tiers and gave it Nasty Plot it'd probably get banned like, within the month.

It's a very, very, very, very, very big jump in power to boost twice in one turn rather than one boost.

People keep saying "Pokemon is more complicated than calcs, look at how much easier it will be to check it in practice!"

I'm gonna level with you: Shit is almost always more broken than the calcs say. Almost always. You can go through most Ubers that not literally Groudon and say "this is managable in the tier", because guess what?

They are technically. Fuck, the way Ubers deal with Zacian-C is literally Skeledirge, which is a fine Pokemon in OU. Ting-Lu is one of the best Pokemon in Ubers and checks basically everything, and does the same shit.

OU is not a playground we have monsters. If you threw down Urshifu Dark into the tier, it'd make it demonstrably worse but it wouldn't be "uncheckable". Swords Dance? Lol Iron Valiant outspeeds and kills with Moonblast / Encores the last move. It even quad resists Wicked Blow. Max PhysDef Clefable can take a hit from Band and see what it's doing. We have several good Regenerator Pokemon which made up of Balance cores trying to PP Stall Wicked Blow in Gen 8, now they just have to pivot into their Super-Effective faster Pokemon when it Swords Dances or Dondozo.

Offense teams? Should already be ready for powerful Sucker Punches, Kingambit is technically more powerful in that regard.

etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

Things are not usually "less broken in practice" they are usually more broken in practice. And the only argument seems to be "calcs don't matter just close your eyes" + "4MSS" which honestly isn't even an upside, it would just make the tier less consistent.

Power creep makes the game worse by making less and less Pokemon viable creating a less diverse metagame, and the way to fight power creep is to reverse it, not unban more Pokemon in the guise of "the power creep has made it fine".

Anywho, doesn't really matter what I say at this point. I'm ready for people to go AV Pex on the Nasty Plot and get flinched down before being able to do anything.

All in Pokémon Scarlet & Violet DLC Expansion Pack 2 :tm:

Disagree on this take...Special attackers aren't inherently harder to deal with defensively because of secondary effects or Nasty Plot specifically. They are harder to deal with because most special walls are just too passive and are generally far easier to abuse than their physical counterparts.

As for Darkrai....It'll be good but it's nothing crazy. It's bulk is decent but it's not setting up NP for free in this meta and having a 80bp move as it's main stab is not doing it any favors. It's also not too hard for most things to deal with it once it's either taken a previous hit or chip from hazards. It's also got booster mons, rain, priority and tera to deal with. This thing ain't uber anymore... with that said there is no reason to really test it before DLC2

The problem is that most people don't consider it a problem because it's not so much the mon itself that causes issues (i.e. it's not necessarily sweeping entire teams like bax/kingambit/regieleki), it's its effect on the metagame as a whole that's a problem. Hazards being omnipresent and effectively unremovable if your opponent has a Gholdengo is the problem, but most people don't see it that way.

Also, can we talk about this more? I share the same sentiment. Aside from Tera Ghold is currently the single biggest reason the meta is so skewed to offense. We should really consider talk about suspecting it more as it's ability+typing+it having recover make it one of the biggest chokepoints of the meta.

 

[HeartfulKitty]

Feels like a lot of gate keeping with ou and ubers. We don't retest ubers because "what does it add to a metagame" having more options could lead to more players and more attention to the tier. Not so much saying darkrai is good or bad but I'm saying the mindset of refusing retests, especially during this gap of the two dlcs, is a bit narrow-minded.

It could also centralize the metagame more as you would need to have one of the few dedicated counters to it, making the metagame have less viable options overall. It probably warrants a retest at some point with how much people are talking about it, but only after the tier settles. We should deal with the broken shit first, and wait to see what DLC2 changes about the meta, especially with the new tera type thing.

Also, the tier having "more attention" isn't the point of tiering. The goal is to create a balanced metagame.

 

[AM]

Enjoyment: 4
Comp: 5 (I just defaulted to this, formats playable which is all that matters imo)
Ogrepon-Fire: 3
Mana: 1
Ninetales-A: 2
BloodMoon: 4
Ogre-Water: 3
Glisc: 3 (Not broken but lot of downplaying on this thread about it)

When asked about other things: “Gave middle ground ratings for the mons since I dont think any is obscenely broken, even if Blood Moon makes balance not very viable or hard to use imo. Contrary to some posts I’ve seen and my limited time playing/watching think format currently is too match up fishy. Not that enjoyable but enjoyment is subjective over playability.”

Gonna be honest I havent and dont really want to comment on this thread too much because it’s been hilariously awful substance wise and I’ve only had so much time to try things out. With that being said I would be okay with a look at something like Darkrai after some sort of tera suspect or review w/e you want to call it. I told Vert I think the whole dropping down Ubers to OU just to try out is a meme even if Zama seemed to workout for the better and people are just going with it because they want to be part of different discussion and like hearing themselves talk. There’s been a few good posts about it but the ratio of good to bad posts has been more laughable than usual. I agree with some of Mimis posts of nerfing certain balance staples like Gholdengo with its inclusion but I think adding another offensive mon with tera available for the future isnt a good idea right now.

Like my scores indicate I dont think anything is outright broken to cause a frenzy but I think we’ll have to sort of do some looser suspects on some of these things mentioned as I find the format much more fishy than before. I think Blood Moon is the most borderline due to its strength and bulk + tera. Manaphy is a 1 to me because I personally think its strongest trait is just beating balances and the H-Rott Ghold type structures. It usually cant beat the opposite ends of the teambuilder spectrum, and it isnt better than most of the things on the survey. Also good in rain but so is Greninja which isnt broken either. Gliscor is being very underrated in this thread and its inclusion has made Spikes much stronger than before. It isnt broken but its definitely not a “1”.

Like I said in my other section, the meta to me isnt that fun, but I dont value fun over it being playable which I feel is more relevant and seems playable. Probably will change overtime as things start to become more solved, in which DLC Round 2 creates a repeat.