Metagame SV UU Metagame Discussion - The Indigo Disk

I find it interesting so much discussion is being had around Iron Crown here, specifically the double dance set because I would argue it is easily the worst variant. DD Crown is mostly just a low/mid-ladder stomper where people struggle to play around activating its Weakness Policy. The set mandates screen support to be most effective, a playstyle has fallen off substantially and has more than enough adequate counterplay within the tier. Without the aid of screens it is far more easily chipped down and taking a super-effective hit usually brings it into range of any form of priority.

It is dependent on activating its item to be effective due to relying on Stored Power. If its WP is never activated then it requires at least 2-3 turns to be considered a scary enough threat. This just makes it susceptible to any form of neutral chip because it lacks any form of longevity, enough to bring it into range of many Pokemon.

Counterplay -
The tier has so much counterplay to this set assuming the matchup is played well and you don't activate its WP for free with a weak hit. I stopped at B rank so there is probably more especially if you factor in defensive Tera, particularly the popular Tera Steel. Correcthorse's post covers a lot of these also.

Phazers:

Garchomp forces the Tera Fairy at worse but it is a strong answer. Empoleon could not care less about the Pokemon and gets to spam Haze or Roar. Toxapex while being weak to SP easily pivots in to click Haze, with team support you can simply just whittle it down. Hippowdon is similar to Garchomp where it is bulky enough and can run Whirlwind. Ttar offensively threatens it and has the bulk to stomach Tachyon. Has access to Dtail and Roar also.

Encore:

HO has access to Lucha with a fast Encore and is faster if Unburden is activated. Ogerpon also being another candidate to do the same despite being slower than +2 Crown. Tinkaton doesn't take too much from Crown and can lock it into either a boosting move or Tachyon.

Unaware:

Tera Dark or Steel beats it.

Offensive:

Azumarill hits hard enough and has priority. Lokix is immune to SP and has strong priority/U-turn. Greninja resists both STABs though admittedly isn't amazing into Crown if screens are up. Bisharp, Scizor, and Excadrill can just boost alongside Crown and threaten to do way too much even behind a Reflect as Crown does not do enough without several boosts to threaten them. Metagross can break screens and then spam EQ to weaken it. Ursaluna just hits too hard, EQ does 70 min behind Reflect.

The King:

You don't beat Crown 1vs1 but you get to Twave it and chip it down or TP out into other partners

Even if Garchomp was booted from the tier we would still have more than enough means to limit this set. The only way I see it becoming an issue is if Focus Blast becomes popular enough over Tachyon, as it changes several of its matchups. Though running that move has its share of issues. Regardless I don't think DD Crown is remotely threatening enough right now and if anything Specs and Booster CM would be the main sets to keep an eye on.
 

Askov

Explode
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UUPL Champion
if anything, i feel like the regular cm booster set is the one that should be looked at if there's any remote chance of looking for a ban on iron crown, sure, double dance sets can get away with a win on preview with veils but i feel like as Twilight mentioned above it's usually easier to keep it in check when you lack fight coverage and/or the initial power on your STABs (even for tachyon since double dance sets will most likely be using a bulkier spread).

Obviously, the regular cm booster set still has its checks/counters, but i felt like it's actually harder to deal wtih, specially when you use it on beatdown HO structures that will aim to overload the opps defensive checks to it (stuff like spdef chomp getting weakened by moth for a crown late game sweep or vice-versa, for example), and having psynoise/psychic and focus blast as options to hit potential checks right of the bat limits down what can be properly used to check it
 
Your calcs here are not good. At least with the set I've been running, Crown's got better numbers than all of that. Offensive Ttar needs Choice Band or prior chip to OHKO even without Veil, and is OHKO'd by a +2 Tachyon Cutter in return. Mandibuzz has a chance to get OHKO'd when Crown's at +3 never mind +4. Bulky Ttar narrowly avoids a OHKO at +3, but it's still guaranteed at +4. Greninja has an ~80% chance to get OHKO'd at +4. Dark-type beatdowns and Dragon Tail phazing can be avoided with Tera Fairy. Skeledirge's matchup vs Crown is very set-dependent. If Dirge has already gone Tera Fairy it just loses. Sets that aren't Tera Dark or Steel can be boosted past, even if just barely, under Screens/Veil if Crown uses Tera.

That's not to say counterplay doesn't exist. Strong priority obviously is good, given Crown's tendency to purposefully get heavily chipped. Tera Steel Tankhomp, Bulky Ttar, and Mandibuzz can all potentially live a hit from +3 and phaze or kill it. +2 Eq from SD chomp OHKOs without Veil/Screen support. So does a+2 Knock Off from Ogerpon. Sand Rush Excadrill and Scizor can survive a Stored Power after WP + Agility, and threaten a lot of damage in return, with drill also outspeeding. Taunt or Encore users can throw a wrench in the setup, especially with how predictable it is. Metagross kills Crown and invalidates Veil/Screens HO as playstyle. Chansey beats Crown on stall.

As a mediocre player Veil HO player who can't get out of midladder I can for certain that Iron Crown is strong, and it's by far the most likely mon of mine to runover a team all by itself. That being said, it's not that hard to play around if you know it's coming, so I'd be hesitant to call it broken, at least as of right now. Maybe keep an eye on it if Chomp gets banned, because that's one of the bigger counterplay options that I've seen.
All of these calcs were done with the UU Double Dance set for Iron Crown (the biggest issue), The UU Stealth Rock set for Ttar, UU Defensive Mandibuzz, Battle Bond Greninja, and OU defensive Skeliderge. Here are my calcs:

+4 0 SpA Iron Crown Tachyon Cutter (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 372-436 (92 - 107.9%) -- approx. 43.8% chance to OHKO
+4 0 SpA Iron Crown Tachyon Cutter (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz: 402-474 (95 - 112%) -- approx. 68.8% chance to OHKO
+4 0 SpA Iron Crown Tachyon Cutter (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Greninja: 252-298 (88.4 - 104.5%) -- approx. 31.3% chance to OHKO
+6 0 SpA Iron Crown Stored Power (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Unaware Skeledirge: 199-235 (48.4 - 57.1%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO

As you can see all of my calcs match my statements made. On the topic of Ttar, you're right it doesn't threaten an ohko even after screens, but it does do a hefty chunk and can finish of Iron Crown once its reasonably chipped down. On the point you made about tera fairy, it makes Iron Crown very vulnerable to a lot of bulky steels that can naturally check it like Scizor and Metagross.
 
All of these calcs were done with the UU Double Dance set for Iron Crown (the biggest issue), The UU Stealth Rock set for Ttar, UU Defensive Mandibuzz, Battle Bond Greninja, and OU defensive Skeliderge. Here are my calcs:

+4 0 SpA Iron Crown Tachyon Cutter (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 372-436 (92 - 107.9%) -- approx. 43.8% chance to OHKO
+4 0 SpA Iron Crown Tachyon Cutter (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz: 402-474 (95 - 112%) -- approx. 68.8% chance to OHKO
+4 0 SpA Iron Crown Tachyon Cutter (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Greninja: 252-298 (88.4 - 104.5%) -- approx. 31.3% chance to OHKO
+6 0 SpA Iron Crown Stored Power (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Unaware Skeledirge: 199-235 (48.4 - 57.1%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO

As you can see all of my calcs match my statements made. On the topic of Ttar, you're right it doesn't threaten an ohko even after screens, but it does do a hefty chunk and can finish of Iron Crown once its reasonably chipped down. On the point you made about tera fairy, it makes Iron Crown very vulnerable to a lot of bulky steels that can naturally check it like Scizor and Metagross.
Fair enough. But do bear in mind, there are more offensive versions of the Double Dance set around. The one I use I pulled from a sample team and has much better numbers in all of those situations:

+4 0+ SpA Iron Crown Tachyon Cutter (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 408-480 (100.9 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+3 0+ SpA Iron Crown Tachyon Cutter (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz: 368-434 (86.9 - 102.6%) -- approx. 18.8% chance to OHKO
+4 0+ SpA Iron Crown Tachyon Cutter (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Greninja: 276-326 (96.8 - 114.3%) -- approx. 81.3% chance to OHKO
+3 0+ SpA Iron Crown Stored Power (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Unaware Skeledirge: 219-258 (53.2 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
Fair enough. But do bear in mind, there are more offensive versions of the Double Dance set around. The one I use I pulled from a sample team and has much better numbers in all of those situations:

+4 0+ SpA Iron Crown Tachyon Cutter (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 408-480 (100.9 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+3 0+ SpA Iron Crown Tachyon Cutter (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz: 368-434 (86.9 - 102.6%) -- approx. 18.8% chance to OHKO
+4 0+ SpA Iron Crown Tachyon Cutter (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Greninja: 276-326 (96.8 - 114.3%) -- approx. 81.3% chance to OHKO
+3 0+ SpA Iron Crown Stored Power (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Unaware Skeledirge: 219-258 (53.2 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I chose that set to calc for because it's the most common, and running a Spatk boosting nature is gonna cost you some bulk and open you up to other weaknesses, but yeah the Spatk nature does help with some of the checks a decent bit. Also for dirge, you are still able to waste screen turns very well.
 
random question but how are we feeling about kommo-o in this current meta?
View attachment 617616
He's pretty fun rn. Mainly thrives on HO with clang soul being such a good boosting move. Ran a fun set with Sub ClangSoul DP Throat with lefties and tera steel to just have a hella strong sub after a few clang souls (+ also screens to help you get it going). Biggest issue with him, is that if your opponent just reacts quickly they can mess up his sweep.
 
welp chomps gone.
This is a pretty big shakeup, so most things change. here are some I think could happen

:pmd/zapdos: I personally didn't like Zapdos in the tier to begin with, but now it feels like a pretty obvious mon to keep an eye on. it already wasn't too bothered by chomp, but the only grounds that beat it are rhyperior(who isn't that good otherwise) and mamoswine, speaking of..
:pmd/mamoswine: I still believe in him, but mamo just lost its single best matchup. there's still a lot of mons it beats and it's ground type is better now since aren't competing with chomp, so I don't think its mamover yet
:pmd/iron_moth:Uh oh, this guys probably gonna be broken. Chomp was a common counter, but with it gone, moth doesn't need to run dazzling gleam anymore. This means it use that last slot to pick and choose the checks it can beat(sub and tera ground seem terrifying now) making it even more of an annoying matchup fish.probably banned.
:pmd/excadrill: if you didn't see enough drill, good news! Its now the best ground type in the tier.
:pmd/hydrapple: bro needed this.Now that most things don't need to run ice moves to beat chomp, and the best physical sweeper isn't a dragon (maybe,)
hydrapple can finally be a decent wall
:pmd/arcanine-hisui: we lost the most common switch-in to it. the dog is happy.
:pmd/tinkaton: Bye air balloon, hello leftovers(air balloon will probably still be used since it wasn't really even a chomp counter)
:pmd/empoleon: same deal as tink and drapple. Was already great, but the chomp weakness was a major turnoff for some, so now it might finally rise to uu like it should of already
:pmd/gastrodon: This is my weirdest prediction, but now with tankchomp gone, Gastrodon could rise as a defensive ground with spikes to fill that void. decent chance this won't happen but still could worth looking at
 
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What du u guys think are gonna be the best replacements for garchomps 2 main roles (Tankchomp and SD + SC sweeper)
+ bonus points if find a good replacement for my EQ Dtail Rest Talk rocky helmet Garchomp set
 
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What du u guys think are gonna be the best replacements for garchomps 2 main roles (Tankchomp and SD + SC sweeper)
+ bonus points if find a good replacement for my EQ Dtail Rest Talk rocky helmet Garchomp set
I think kommo-o and haxorus will fit the sd + sc sweeper role, kommo-o has similar bulk but less atttacking power and speed, while haxorus has a lot more power.
Idk about tankchomp, but here's a salamence set that does similar things to your set. Idk on ev's though.
Salamence @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Rest
- Dragon Tail
- Sleep Talk
- Earthquake

Or if you want to get really spicy
Gabite @ Eviolite
Ability: Rough Skin
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Dragon Tail
- Earthquake
116+ SpA Hydrapple Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4+ SpD Garchomp: 96-113 (22.8 - 26.9%) -- 37.9% chance to 4HKO
116+ SpA Hydrapple Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4+ SpD Eviolite Gabite: 90-107 (26.4 - 31.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Actually, nevermind.
 
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I think kommo-o and haxorus will fit the sd + sc sweeper role, kommo-o has similar bulk but less atttacking power and speed, while haxorus has a lot more power.
Idk about tankchomp, but here's a salamence set that does similar things to your set. Idk on ev's though.
Salamence @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Rest
- Dragon Tail
- Sleep Talk
- Earthquake

Or if you want to get really spicy
Gabite @ Eviolite
Ability: Rough Skin
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Dragon Tail
- Earthquake
116+ SpA Hydrapple Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4+ SpD Garchomp: 96-113 (22.8 - 26.9%) -- 37.9% chance to 4HKO
116+ SpA Hydrapple Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4+ SpD Eviolite Gabite: 90-107 (26.4 - 31.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Actually, nevermind.
These are both beautiful tysm
 
What du u guys think are gonna be the best replacements for garchomps 2 main roles (Tankchomp and SD + SC sweeper)
+ bonus points if find a good replacement for my EQ Dtail Rest Talk rocky helmet Garchomp set
already suggested it but I think Gastrodon is a pretty good replacement for tankchomp. It is a bulky ground type hazard setter with a 4 times weakness, so its similar in idea, plus theres only like 5 or so mons that actually carry grass moves, so it could be worse. unlike tankchomp, however, Gastro actually has recover witch means it doesn't need leftovers if you want healing. if you want a bulky dragon type as well, hydrapple is also an option
 
welp chomps gone.
This is a pretty big shakeup, so most things change. here are some I think could happen

:pmd/zapdos: I personally didn't like Zapdos in the tier to begin with, but now it feels like a pretty obvious mon to keep an eye on. it already wasn't too bothered by chomp, but the only grounds that beat it are rhyperior(who isn't that good otherwise) and mamoswine, speaking of..
:pmd/mamoswine: I still believe in him, but mamo just lost its single best matchup. there's still a lot of mons it beats and it's ground type is better now since aren't competing with chomp, so I don't think its mamover yet
:pmd/iron_moth:Uh oh, this guys probably gonna be broken. Chomp was a common counter, but with it gone, moth doesn't need to run dazzling gleam anymore. This means it use that last slot to pick and choose the checks it can beat(sub and tera ground seem terrifying now) making it even more of an annoying matchup fish.probably banned.
:pmd/excadrill: if you didn't see enough drill, good news! Its now the best ground type in the tier.
:pmd/hydrapple: bro needed this.Now that most things don't need to run ice moves to beat chomp, and the best physical sweeper isn't a dragon (maybe,)
hydrapple can finally be a decent wall
:pmd/arcanine:(no hisui pic) we lost the most common switch-in to it. the dog is happy.
:pmd/tinkaton: Bye air balloon, hello leftovers(air balloon will probably still be used since it wasn't really even a chomp counter)
:pmd/empoleon: same deal as tink and drapple. Was already great, but the chomp weakness was a major turnoff for some, so now it might finally rise to uu like it should of already
:pmd/gastrodon: This is my weirdest prediction, but now with tankchomp gone, Gastrodon could rise as a defensive ground with spikes to fill that void. decent chance this won't happen but still could worth looking at
Also, h-arcanine does have a pmd sprite, you have to type arcanine hisui.
:pmd/arcanine hisui:
But yeah, I do agree with all these takes.
 
wanted to fully posts some thoughts on mons I like after chomp ban

:kommo-o: this guy was extremely outshined by garchomp as a sweeper in the tier, maybe this guy's usage can be higher as its versatility is insane he can run sd + scale shot, clangorous soul, dragon dance, bulk...up(?) and belly drum, and even use its 125 defense to be like tankchomp, stuff like this shouldn't be passed up on and i hope the playerbase realizes his true potential soon !

:Empoleon: My boy got buffed and he fell to RU in the same gen, losing the chomp matchup wasn't good so hopefully he can actually comeback, combines the best defensive types in the game, has rocks, knock and flip turn and roost for recovery, combined with tera and he can actually be a nice wall so hopefully he comes to UU soon

:excadrill: she's now backup ground since garchomp went to jail and is actually really strong combined with LO sand rush or mold breaker to hit latios and rotom-wash, please do not ban this thing for being broken with SD + Rush

:tinkaton: this will not drop she's good

:mamoswine: it might be mamover guys

:ursaluna: WE MIGHT BE URSABACK

(uh oh radar below)

:iron moth: with chomp gone, this guy could be a very scary threat, chomp was the only thing checking this thing and another check (choice scarf latios luster purge) ties with quark spe and could tera so moth might actually 1-up him, will probably get banned in the future for sure

:iron crown: while i don't think iron crown is broken per say, it can snowball out of control given the opportunity, there are things to check it like excadrill and lokix but other than that it can just sweep on a whim so i'd say keep an eye on this

:greninja: maybe? its battle bond sets are annoying but there's lokix so i guess, i run protect to actually mess with lokix so that could be thing ig

anyways those were my 11 PM takes bye guys
 
Why does Offensive SpA Kommo-o run bulletproof? Wouldn't Overcoat or even Soundproof be better, for sand chip/spore or other Boombursts?
bulletproof blocks things like focus blast iron crown, aura sphere latios while kommo is tera steel and shadow ball from sinistcha or others

i don't really have any experience from bulletproof though, as i usually use soundproof kommo-o to block parting shot and random roar users
 
If we are talking in terms of winners and losers one big winner of Chomp Ban is :ogerpon-cornerstone:

Chomp could pretty comfortably tank Crudgel whilst setting up Hazards which break Sturdy and being faster than it at +1.

:kommo-o: there was already some exploration of DD Drain Punch sets in UUPL. Chomp ban is bound to speed up the process of exploring the mon fruther as its less overshadowed now.

:raikou: i think is a loser here. Weather Ball sets lose a target and he will have more of a problem dealing with other grounds. Chilling Reception Weather Ball was a nice tech against Chomp, Tios, Dos and Torn but now it doesnt hit Chomp and none of the other Grounds are weak to Ice. I could see Scald becoming more prominent option.
 
If we are talking in terms of winners and losers one big winner of Chomp Ban is :ogerpon-cornerstone:

Chomp could pretty comfortably tank Crudgel whilst setting up Hazards which break Sturdy and being faster than it at +1.

:kommo-o: there was already some exploration of DD Drain Punch sets in UUPL. Chomp ban is bound to speed up the process of exploring the mon fruther as its less overshadowed now.

:raikou: i think is a loser here. Weather Ball sets lose a target and he will have more of a problem dealing with other grounds. Chilling Reception Weather Ball was a nice tech against Chomp, Tios, Dos and Torn but now it doesnt hit Chomp and none of the other Grounds are weak to Ice. I could see Scald becoming more prominent option.
finally...kommo-o exploration at last..
 

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