OU Talonflame

[alexwolf]

Thx PK, and don't worry Jukain i will go into details when i write this up.

 

[Kavatika]

You said it yourself alexwolf , CB Talonflame and Scarf Starpator make a great offensive core, you should add that to team options.

 

[Colonel M]

Substitute can be used more effectively than just how you presented it. Substitute also prevents Dragon Tail, Intimidate switch-ins and Prankster Thunder Wave if Thundurus is coming in for revenge (it is forced to Thunderbolt). I would at least mention it blocking Dragon Tail but you can leave the Prankster situation out (it's kind of minor).

Life Orb seems really kamikaze of Talonflame with Swords Dance and really isn't to my taste. Were it up to me it would be mentioned in the Set Details section and the like. Speaking of flesh out why to use Sharp Beak over Life Orb in the set.

Don't forget to mention Choice Band Staraptor as a teammate. That fucker does immense damage to weaken for Talonflame. It's almost shocking how much it can do to checks and threats.

I don't have a special stamp of my own but I do like JonTron since he reminds me of my awkward humor so:

QC 2/3

 

[BurningMan]

Do the 48 Hp EVs actually achieve something? If not i actually think that max speed is superior given how common Talonflame is. I have never been a fan of random HP investment and Talonflame is so frail that 7 HP points won't matter much 95% of the time while being able to always tie with max spe Talonflame can very often decide a match. Not using full speed on the analysis is only going to lead to speed creep which means that the on-site set won't be the most effective. There are often situations where aiming to outspeed a specific threat and putting the rest in HP can be a superior spread, but this isn't the case for a Pokemon that is number 2/4 in the usage stats especially not for a meager 7 HP points on a Pokemon that is incredibly frail anyway.

 

[alexwolf]

Yeah, you are right BurningMan, changing. Also, added Staraptor as a teammate.

And thx for the check Colonel M!

 

[MagikaripIsOP]

Yeah, you are right BurningMan, changing. Also, added Staraptor as a teammate.

And thx for the check Colonel M!

Scarf or Band?

 

[sidakarya]

Both could work. Scarf fixes its rather middle speed, letting it act as a second revenge-killer, while Band gives it even more power to break walls and wear down shared counters.

M-Pinsir and offensive Togekiss are some more Flying-types, that you could use in a similar kind of double-dragon style core. Pinsir has access to Earthquake and Close Combat for Heatran and Tyranitar (and it can even pressure Rotom-W in its normal form with Mold Breaker EQ). With Nasty Plot or a bulky Life Orb set, Togekiss can lure Talonflame's usual counters - even Rotom-W gets 2HKO'd with LO Dazzling Gleam.

To outspeed M-Lucario and Thundurus with Jolly nature, you need 144 Spe EVs. You can put the overrest EVs into HP, which has the benefit of giving it deceptive bulk.

 

[emboar rises]

KFC (Talonflame) (M) @ Liechi Berry / Apicot Berry
Trait: Gale Wings
EVs: 96 HP / 252 Atk / 160 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Brave Bird / Acrobatics
- Swords Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Natural Gift

I support the example of DarkBlazer, because Natural Gift + Liechi Berry it's great against the few counters of Talonflame (Rotom-W, T-tar). NGift has 100 BP when consumes the berry makes a tons of damage who haves a weakness to Grass / Ground

+2 252+ Atk Liechi Berry Talonflame Natural Gift (100 BP Grass) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Tyranitar: 246-290 (72.1 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Liechi Berry Talonflame Natural Gift (100 BP Grass) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 240-284 (79.2 - 93.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Liechi Berry Talonflame Natural Gift (100 BP Grass) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 280-332 (71 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Apicot Berry Talonflame Natural Gift (100 BP Ground) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 664-784 (172 - 203.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Chou Toshio]

Can Conkeldurr get a mention as a good teammate against Rotom-w / Heatran / TTar? With Assault Vest and Guts, it handles the first two pretty well (and AMAZING things happen if it gets burned...), and we all know it's an incredible TTar switch-in (just like any bulky fighting-type, but let's face it-- Conk's the best there).

 

[Toxicosis]

Hmm.. how about Sleep Talk in the last slot in the Choice Band set? If for some reason you switch into a Sleeping move.

I'd say it's more of a signal of how its last slot really isn't necessary at all.. though, the Will-o-Wisp is an interesting surprise factor, I'd probably typically U-turn to try to keep Talonflame safe in the first place instead (would be nice to hit Gliscor with the Will-o-Miss on the switch-in though)

 

[Hibiki]

Hmm.. how about Sleep Talk in the last slot in the Choice Band set? If for some reason you switch into a Sleeping move.

I'd say it's more of a signal of how its last slot really isn't necessary at all.. though, the Will-o-Wisp is an interesting surprise factor, I'd probably typically U-turn to try to keep Talonflame safe in the first place instead (would be nice to hit Gliscor with the Will-o-Miss on the switch-in though)

Sleep Talk doesn't give priority to Brave Bird.

 

[Toxicosis]

Sleep Talk doesn't give priority to Brave Bird.

Well, with Adamant 252 Speed, you still outspeed base 110s (though Scarf users outspeed), which is most of the unboosted tier and you could end up surprising them if they try to setup. Biggest thing is that I find that slot isn't particularly important no matter what you run, and Sleep Talk would still cause you to deal damage with any of its 3 attacking moves.

 

[Gamerjimi]

And most users of sleep inducing moves are grass-types, like Venusaur, Breloom and Roserade, neither of which want to take any of Talonflame's moves. Even U-Turn could at least get you to a Pokemon that is awake.

 

[The Great Gastly]

Has Me First been discussed as an option for the CB set?

I haven't found much use for the other suggested moves, whereas Me First has done cool things like OHKO a Garchomp with its own Dragon move! (and other things I can't think of atm...)

 

[alexwolf]

I can slash it if it's useful idk. Tbh, i have almost never used the move on the last slot, so we might as well slash a move there that has some atual usefulness. Outside of Garchomp, what else is it useful for? Kyu-B's Outrage?

 

[Unknown001]

I can slash it if it's useful idk. Tbh, i have almost never used the move on the last slot, so we might as well slash a move there that has some atual usefulness. Outside of Garchomp, what else is it useful for? Kyu-B's Outrage?

Outrage 120 BP x Me First's 1.5 = 180 BP
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 392-462 (131.5 - 155%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 428-504 (109.1 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 446-526 (124.5 - 146.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Garchomp: 380-448 (106.1 - 125.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 223-263 (68.8 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, (137.6 - 162.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO if MultiScale is broken

Dragon Claw 80 BP x Me First's 1.5 = 120 BP
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 260-308 (87.2 - 103.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 286-338 (72.9 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 298-352 (83.2 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Garchomp: 254-300 (70.9 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 149-176 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO, (91.9 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO if MultiScale is broken


edit: bulkier kyurem-b

Outrage 120 BP x Me First's 1.5 = 180 BP
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Outrage vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 428-504 (105.6 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Outrage vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 428-504 (94.4 - 111.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

 

[MagikaripIsOP]

You forgot about adamant nature.

 

[piuchester]

I've been using this set with relative success in wi-fi, not sure about how does it adapt in showdown metagame:
Talonflame @ Liechi Berry / Sitrus Berry
Adamant nature
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe (252 HP if lv.50 [185 HP], 248 if lv.100 [359 hp]
-Flame Charge
-Acrobatics
-Swords Dance
-Natural Gift / Roost

Objective: With those HP EVs and no recoil moves, Talonflame makes itself mildly bulky, as calculations posted above already had shown it. While it lacks in raw power, it does have a nice niche in late-game cleaning, specially with a way to boost speed for those fast opponents who resist his Flying STAB

Idea: Send Talon into something it threatens, then Flame Charge. It hits 435 speed at lv.100, enough to outpace most scarfers and would-be threats (namely Scarf Rotom-W, which I've seen more often than ever), only to be hit for a powerful 100BP grass move, AND activate Acrobatics side-effect doubling damage, making it as appealing as Brave Bird, being almost as strong, but without recoil.
Unfortunately, I have to lure Rotom and weaken it a bit before, because...
248+ Atk Talonflame Flame Charge vs. 6 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 31-37 (12.8 - 15.2%)
248+ Atk Talonflame Natural Gift (100 BP Grass) vs. 6 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 166-196 (68.5 - 80.9%) -- missing the 2HKO by an inch

(obviously, if I sense by any way that Rotom isn't scarfed, I can SD and start from there)

 

[Jukain]

sharp beak 3 atks needs a non-ac mention. as in, roost 3 atks. can this be made a set, or slashed into something somehow? the set is worthy of more than an ac mention for sure.

in 'moves' of sd/bu mention boosting move + stabs + u-turn (works somewhat like u-turn sd scizor).

 

[doughboy]

I've been using this set with relative success in wi-fi, not sure about how does it adapt in showdown metagame:
Talonflame @ Liechi Berry / Sitrus Berry
Adamant nature
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe (252 HP if lv.50 [185 HP], 248 if lv.100 [359 hp]
-Flame Charge
-Acrobatics
-Swords Dance
-Natural Gift / Roost

I wouldn't use this set because if you don't find the opportunity to Natural Gift, Talonflame won't be able to revenge anything with priority. This set also needs three turns to set up, which a good opponent will not let you do (Flame Charge + Natural Gift + SD). You would have to rely upon the opponent having something weak to natural gift too in order to make sure Talonflame isn't OHKO'ed in the process of setting up.

 

[Toxicosis]

I've been using this set with relative success in wi-fi, not sure about how does it adapt in showdown metagame:
Talonflame @ Liechi Berry / Sitrus Berry
Adamant nature
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe (252 HP if lv.50 [185 HP], 248 if lv.100 [359 hp]
-Flame Charge
-Acrobatics
-Swords Dance
-Natural Gift / Roost

Objective: With those HP EVs and no recoil moves, Talonflame makes itself mildly bulky, as calculations posted above already had shown it. While it lacks in raw power, it does have a nice niche in late-game cleaning, specially with a way to boost speed for those fast opponents who resist his Flying STAB

Idea: Send Talon into something it threatens, then Flame Charge. It hits 435 speed at lv.100, enough to outpace most scarfers and would-be threats (namely Scarf Rotom-W, which I've seen more often than ever), only to be hit for a powerful 100BP grass move, AND activate Acrobatics side-effect doubling damage, making it as appealing as Brave Bird, being almost as strong, but without recoil.
Unfortunately, I have to lure Rotom and weaken it a bit before, because...
248+ Atk Talonflame Flame Charge vs. 6 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 31-37 (12.8 - 15.2%)
248+ Atk Talonflame Natural Gift (100 BP Grass) vs. 6 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 166-196 (68.5 - 80.9%) -- missing the 2HKO by an inch

(obviously, if I sense by any way that Rotom isn't scarfed, I can SD and start from there)

Also.. the calculations you used for Rotom, the most common set runs Def positive nature with max HP/Def.. Also why is it 248+ Att? Shouldn't it be 252+? ._.

 

[alexwolf]

sharp beak 3 atks needs a non-ac mention. as in, roost 3 atks. can this be made a set, or slashed into something somehow? the set is worthy of more than an ac mention for sure.

in 'moves' of sd/bu mention boosting move + stabs + u-turn (works somewhat like u-turn sd scizor).

Ok, i can do that.

 

[Martin]

I'm not QC, but can I suggest something:
NEVER run max speed on Talonflame. On the Choice Band and SD sets I suggest running an EV spread of 124 HP / 252 Atk / 132 Speed

 

[CyclicCompound]

I'm not QC, but can I suggest something:
NEVER run max speed on Talonflame. On the Choice Band and SD sets I suggest running an EV spread of 124 HP / 252 Atk / 132 Speed

What does 132 Speed EVs or 124 HP EVs accomplish? I put it in the calculator, and 132 Speed is enough to outrun fully invested base 96 Pokemon... if those were to exist.

Apart from that, I'd always run max speed simply to speed tie other Talonflame, which can be pretty important. Adding to its bulk isn't really going to do much. Talonflame isn't really meant to take hits—you can basically assume that everything attack directed at Talonflame is either going to KO it or come really close, but Talonflame doesn't really mind since it's a late-game priority sweeper and/or revenge killer.

 

[Riverfield]

I'm not QC, but can I suggest something:
NEVER run max speed on Talonflame. On the Choice Band and SD sets I suggest running an EV spread of 124 HP / 252 Atk / 132 Speed

Especially on choice band, I want to outrun Jolly Mega Pinsir so I can brave bird before he quick attacks. Sure with hp evs it doesn't OHKO with +2 QA, but recoil damage can lead to double downs or just plain losing to Pinsir. That needs 208 spe EVs and you are left with 48 (assuming fully invested atk).

Though there's nothing notable from 105 - 110 that you need to outspeed, the final choice is between 12 more hp or speed tying or outspeeding hp invested Talonflame, one of the most popular pokemon in the tier. I think the choice is pretty obvious.