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Metagame Terastallization Tiering Discussion, Part II [CLOSED FOR DLC]
- Thread starter Finchinator
- Start date
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cyberacc
formerly Suckingmoreducks
I believe Tera is a horrible mechanic that does nothing but divide the player-base any time it gets brought up and would have settled for a hard ban/separate ladder entirely for how the tier works without it. The thing about this stance I have is that it is unrealistic to how CG tiers work: Unless GameFreak adds something so egregiously brick shit stupid the counterplay becomes "we have no clue at all what the counterplay is, hope their mechanic on their team sucks more than yours" (Dynamax) we will not have mechanic/gimmick bans.
The only real positive I am seeing for Tera OU losing a massive chunk of the playerbase over time since they dislike the mechanic and consider it non-serious is that you are seeing an influx and appreciation for old gens, OMs and Petmods that has not happened in a while. Even in SS the tier everyone bemoans as being boring you are seeing a return of players wanting mons to be simpler than CG OU. Outside of this the generation will be a very good way to divide the playerbase into pointless tribalism with no good process of settling with a compromise like we had in SS where Offense sort of sucks but was playable, Bulky Offense was dumbly free, Stall was alright and HO was completely in the gutter (I find this a good thing.)
This is fine, expected really. I've been around long enough to remember BW OU CG discussions. But unless we have some zeitgeist in thinking Tera discussions will remain divisive at best and outright vitriolic at worst.
My advice if you are on the extreme side like me: Don't play CG OU and/or tiers where Terastallization is legal. The tier is not going to ban Tera, at most you can cope with Dex gutting once people start souring on things like Valiant being "just the right tera" to instantly flip a match up on its head with the one prerequisite you have in tournament play and on ladder being "oh its' this team, I have faced this before." Otherwise you're going to keep walking into rakes until you quit the singles sphere entirely due to how pointless the discussions and stance-taking becomes.
The only real positive I am seeing for Tera OU losing a massive chunk of the playerbase over time since they dislike the mechanic and consider it non-serious is that you are seeing an influx and appreciation for old gens, OMs and Petmods that has not happened in a while. Even in SS the tier everyone bemoans as being boring you are seeing a return of players wanting mons to be simpler than CG OU. Outside of this the generation will be a very good way to divide the playerbase into pointless tribalism with no good process of settling with a compromise like we had in SS where Offense sort of sucks but was playable, Bulky Offense was dumbly free, Stall was alright and HO was completely in the gutter (I find this a good thing.)
This is fine, expected really. I've been around long enough to remember BW OU CG discussions. But unless we have some zeitgeist in thinking Tera discussions will remain divisive at best and outright vitriolic at worst.
My advice if you are on the extreme side like me: Don't play CG OU and/or tiers where Terastallization is legal. The tier is not going to ban Tera, at most you can cope with Dex gutting once people start souring on things like Valiant being "just the right tera" to instantly flip a match up on its head with the one prerequisite you have in tournament play and on ladder being "oh its' this team, I have faced this before." Otherwise you're going to keep walking into rakes until you quit the singles sphere entirely due to how pointless the discussions and stance-taking becomes.
I’m not gonna say which side I take part in, but I will state this. Unlike Dynamax where a majority of the playerbase unanimously agreed that it had to go, Terastilization is much more divided, with many top players either with Tera or against it. Should action be taken on Terastilization or should it stay as is? Not gonna give any answers but it depends on what the playerbase wants SV OU to be in the near future.
Does the playerbase want an interesting higher skill cap metagame? (Pro-Tera)
Top players like NJP, Blunder, and ABR have argued that Terastilization adds new depth to the tier and that because of it, SV OU has one of the highest skill caps since GSC. It puts skills like scouting, tera management, provoking tera, and game knowledge to the forefront. A comparison would be Gens 1-4 before Team Preview. Players couldn’t simply look at the team and determine wincons, team structures, then come up with a plan on how to approach it like they could now. Players had to figure out what team they were facing off based on 2 or more mons on the team. Some of the best players of old gens are able to figure out teams/team structures just with one pokemon to work with, because it was a necessary skill to learn. The same can apply to Tera. It is possible to determine what Tera each mon has based off the team structure and what the team is seemingly weak to. Like if an HO team is weak to Amoonguss, the Valiant or Zama would prob be Tera Steel. There is also knowing when they will Tera, like if they switch into Iron Treads against Sneasler, its pretty easy to telegraph that they are going to Tera here. Provoking Tera can be doing something like sending in Tusks on Ghold and then scaring it into clicking Tera Flying or Fairy. Now the Zapdos or Amoonguss on the team can check it. There are many examples but we would be here all day. Some have also argued that Tera allows more mons to branch into OU. An example is Frosmoth who based off the replay of it bodying a sun team, would never happen if Tera were to be banned tomorrow. Morkal is an active participant in the OU forums and has made several posts on PU/ZU mons and found niches for them due in most part to Terastilization. The main idea is that Tera makes the metagame more skill demanding, and encourages more aggressive plays, leading to SV OU becoming a more interesting spectator sport than previous gens due to a combination of defensive options being nerfed and Tera.
Oh and the “if Tera gets banned, then it will just be SS 2.0” is fucking stupid. Even Pro-Tera players disagree with this statement. We don’t need a generational gimmick to differentiate a gen from another, this is evident by…Every generation before XY.
You wouldn’t say DPP is ADV 2.0, because they are two completely different metagames. Same with SV. Nerfed Recovery moves, tons of new viable Pokemon, less hazard removal, more hazards, several OU staples from the last gen are either nerfed, nerfed heavily, or were banned from entering Paldea’s borders. There are way better Pro-Tera arguments than this, stop gravitating towards this cause you got 6-0d by NP Torn stall a year ago.
Does the player base want a more balanced and stable metagame? (Anti-Tera)
Many players have pointed out that Tera has caused several problems within the metagame and may lead to more problems in the future. Tera is cited as a polarizing mechanic that pushes otherwise balanced mons in the tier like Bax, Gambit, Sneasler, Enam, Garg, and Valiant over the edge, which in turn limits teambuilding. Accounting for these massive threats is theoretically impossible due to the nature of Tera as players like Srn have argued. The council could theoretically take action on these mons via suspect tests/quick bans like they have for Espathra and MU Moth, but it begs the question on if we should ban 5-10 otherwise balanced mons to preserve a potentially unhealthy mechanic. Banning mons like Garg, Gambit, and Valiant would have consequences in the metagame. Without Garg and Gambit, Pult and Ghold become harder to check, without Valiant, alot of offensive sweepers may go out of control. We have seen these consequences before with the ban of Volc. Volcarona was not just a wincon, but it was also a check to the likes of Ghold, the Fairies, and non-Tera Fire/Lum Gambit. This is all not helped by the fact that there is generally less options to choose from. It is argued that either restricting Tera or banning it outright would lead to more stability and less mons getting banned as a result.
Think about these as you post about your thoughts in regards to Terastilization. Also don’t insult others or call them dumb just cause you disagree with them. This should be common sense.
Does the playerbase want an interesting higher skill cap metagame? (Pro-Tera)
Top players like NJP, Blunder, and ABR have argued that Terastilization adds new depth to the tier and that because of it, SV OU has one of the highest skill caps since GSC. It puts skills like scouting, tera management, provoking tera, and game knowledge to the forefront. A comparison would be Gens 1-4 before Team Preview. Players couldn’t simply look at the team and determine wincons, team structures, then come up with a plan on how to approach it like they could now. Players had to figure out what team they were facing off based on 2 or more mons on the team. Some of the best players of old gens are able to figure out teams/team structures just with one pokemon to work with, because it was a necessary skill to learn. The same can apply to Tera. It is possible to determine what Tera each mon has based off the team structure and what the team is seemingly weak to. Like if an HO team is weak to Amoonguss, the Valiant or Zama would prob be Tera Steel. There is also knowing when they will Tera, like if they switch into Iron Treads against Sneasler, its pretty easy to telegraph that they are going to Tera here. Provoking Tera can be doing something like sending in Tusks on Ghold and then scaring it into clicking Tera Flying or Fairy. Now the Zapdos or Amoonguss on the team can check it. There are many examples but we would be here all day. Some have also argued that Tera allows more mons to branch into OU. An example is Frosmoth who based off the replay of it bodying a sun team, would never happen if Tera were to be banned tomorrow. Morkal is an active participant in the OU forums and has made several posts on PU/ZU mons and found niches for them due in most part to Terastilization. The main idea is that Tera makes the metagame more skill demanding, and encourages more aggressive plays, leading to SV OU becoming a more interesting spectator sport than previous gens due to a combination of defensive options being nerfed and Tera.
Oh and the “if Tera gets banned, then it will just be SS 2.0” is fucking stupid. Even Pro-Tera players disagree with this statement. We don’t need a generational gimmick to differentiate a gen from another, this is evident by…Every generation before XY.
You wouldn’t say DPP is ADV 2.0, because they are two completely different metagames. Same with SV. Nerfed Recovery moves, tons of new viable Pokemon, less hazard removal, more hazards, several OU staples from the last gen are either nerfed, nerfed heavily, or were banned from entering Paldea’s borders. There are way better Pro-Tera arguments than this, stop gravitating towards this cause you got 6-0d by NP Torn stall a year ago.
Does the player base want a more balanced and stable metagame? (Anti-Tera)
Many players have pointed out that Tera has caused several problems within the metagame and may lead to more problems in the future. Tera is cited as a polarizing mechanic that pushes otherwise balanced mons in the tier like Bax, Gambit, Sneasler, Enam, Garg, and Valiant over the edge, which in turn limits teambuilding. Accounting for these massive threats is theoretically impossible due to the nature of Tera as players like Srn have argued. The council could theoretically take action on these mons via suspect tests/quick bans like they have for Espathra and MU Moth, but it begs the question on if we should ban 5-10 otherwise balanced mons to preserve a potentially unhealthy mechanic. Banning mons like Garg, Gambit, and Valiant would have consequences in the metagame. Without Garg and Gambit, Pult and Ghold become harder to check, without Valiant, alot of offensive sweepers may go out of control. We have seen these consequences before with the ban of Volc. Volcarona was not just a wincon, but it was also a check to the likes of Ghold, the Fairies, and non-Tera Fire/Lum Gambit. This is all not helped by the fact that there is generally less options to choose from. It is argued that either restricting Tera or banning it outright would lead to more stability and less mons getting banned as a result.
Think about these as you post about your thoughts in regards to Terastilization. Also don’t insult others or call them dumb just cause you disagree with them. This should be common sense.
I agree that it wouldn't change things much but I feel like at the very least it should be an option. Not that I believe many people would vote for that, but it's a point that's been discussed a bunch and it would be diningenuous to not allow a public vote on it.
As alluded in the OP, STAB Tera is not on the table. It’s an incomplete solution that arguably causes more trouble than it’s worth; it received laughably poor support last time and nothing has changed.
Thanks and sorry Finch, I def might have skipped over that part when reading the OP. Thank you for the amazing work you guys in the council put to make this work.
I'm quite skeptical that a suspect about tera will ever put any action on the mechanic. That is, unless we allowed the suspect to have a period that actually tested a teraless meta.
The problem is that unlike just any one potentially broken Pokemon, tera affects the game in so many different ways - And how they are good and bad can look extremely subjective. Too subjective if you ask me, to a point that to understand what it really does, a teraless meta is the best bet. No more silly theoretical thinking of what how it really warps the meta - You have a genuine 'control group' to compare it to, and both sides of the isle can better debate whether the effects of tera are actually worthwhile.
Of course, implementing this might be quite the hassle. If it were me, I wouldn't have 2 separate ou metas running at the exact same time. Instead, I'd have it so that the first weeks of the suspect, we have the current tera meta, and the last few weeks, tera is banned - and everyone by force would have to play ou in that form as well for the suspect.
This would make it so we'd also need to have suspect requirements fulfilled in both metas, though... That might be a 6 week suspect test, and it'd be quite a timesink for the voters, too. Science sure takes time and effort, doesn't it? But for the sake of debate, and to finally solve this conundrum once and for all, it might be worth it.
The problem is that unlike just any one potentially broken Pokemon, tera affects the game in so many different ways - And how they are good and bad can look extremely subjective. Too subjective if you ask me, to a point that to understand what it really does, a teraless meta is the best bet. No more silly theoretical thinking of what how it really warps the meta - You have a genuine 'control group' to compare it to, and both sides of the isle can better debate whether the effects of tera are actually worthwhile.
Of course, implementing this might be quite the hassle. If it were me, I wouldn't have 2 separate ou metas running at the exact same time. Instead, I'd have it so that the first weeks of the suspect, we have the current tera meta, and the last few weeks, tera is banned - and everyone by force would have to play ou in that form as well for the suspect.
This would make it so we'd also need to have suspect requirements fulfilled in both metas, though... That might be a 6 week suspect test, and it'd be quite a timesink for the voters, too. Science sure takes time and effort, doesn't it? But for the sake of debate, and to finally solve this conundrum once and for all, it might be worth it.
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I've said it before and I'll say it again, I don't think "just play other metagames if you think Tera is unbalanced" should be part of the discussion. Current Gen OU is "THE metagame" - before VGC was a thing Smogon CG OU was just what competitive Pokémon was. CG OU is the largest, most current, most relevant, and most popular iteration of Competitve Pokémon (except for maybe VGC and well, we were here first.) If there is a balance issue in our flagship metagame the solution is not "play a dead metagame from a decade ago" it's to make the most popular & relevant metagame as balanced as possible. Comparing to other gens or suggesting them as alternatives is not an option. Old gens have a player base sure but most of us want to be playing the largest most current metagame and for that to be a good experience.
so if it's only ou that's in this bizarre broken-checks-broken state right now, that points to the problems lying with the mons themselves and not tera as a mechanic. compare this to dynamax, where every tier was fucked up, an lc mon with access to dynamax could go toe-to-toe with a dynamaxless ou team, it was banned from ubers when the two best mons in ubers always ran anti-dynamax moves, hell, they suspected it in random battles for crying out loud. i say we keep tera (with preview, things become a lot more dealwithable), boot the problematic mons and whatever other problematic mons they're holding back, and then have a serious discussion about making an oubl/uubers tier because at that point the number of banned mons could constitute a meta of its own
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cyberacc
formerly Suckingmoreducks
Then you ban the mons that abuse the mechanic to keep the mechanic.
Simple.
And calling old gens, pet mods what have you dead is a surefire way to make nobody respect the argument you bring forth. Type something more concise that excludes tier bashing in the future.
your pfp literally features tom cruise laughing at old gens
Are they the current gen? Are pet mods standard competitive Pokémon? If you enjoy them great but let's not pretend they're a legitimate alternative to simply balancing the contemporary Metagame.
"ban the mons that abuse the mechanic to keep the mechanic" to what end? We ban Kingambit next, then we ban Dragapult and Gholdengo, then we ban Valiant and Bax, then whatever rises to the top next... this is Baton Pass 2.0 where you can't just "ban the abusers" because "the abusers" are nearly every Pokémon
There will never be OUBL/UUbers because that's just OU with a bunch of unbalanced stuff allowed. It's been tried before and it's dogshit. Imagine OU + Palafin Flutter Bundle Ape and Espathra. I wonder what the tier will revolve around. Rather than banning half of OU to "balance it" maybe address the common thread that breaks all these otherwise-reasonable pokemon
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except take a look at the lower tiers, where these waves of bans aren't necessary despite the continued presence of tera. if nearly every pokemon is an abuser of tera, they'd be having the same problems as we are and their banlists would be pretty long by now. the only tier with a big banlist right now is ru—nubl has like 5 mons and uubl and publ consist of one mon each
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cyberacc
formerly Suckingmoreducks
Seeing as some of the highest level tournaments are still held in Old Gens I would say they still classify as standard competitive Pokémon and since old gens are known for their stability I do see them as a valid alternative as someone who absolutely despises Tera, many do.
And yeah, you can ban every abuser to the dismay of the playerbase. If you're dead set on Tera staying you are going to have to gut the dex, and seeing as Tera is highly likely to stay in OU that is the only valid option to balancing since the compromises so far have been met with skepticism and ridicule from both sides.
So sadly you CGers are going to have to deal with a very messy gen with a very long list of bans to keep the mechanic. Its' the way it has to be.
Although this is not exactly relevant to the discussion:
Nah its' more so meant to be a joke on how horrid the state of CG is may as well return to basics.
You are aware that there are factors other than Terastalization that can lead to a mon being banned from a tier, right? Hoopa and Tornadus are completely out of whack with the tier's power level.
Oricorio gained Quiver Dance in gen 9, alongside a remotely usable statline and reliable recovery. Revelation Dance is very funny with Tera, for coverage reasons, but Quiver Dance alone is enough to send a mon with usable stats & typing up a tier or two.
And Venomoth has been on a tier's banlist since gen 5.
Terastalization isn't the lynchpin to why Kingambit is problematic, the overwhelming power of a STAB Sucker Punch off 135 Attack and up to +50% from Supreme Overlord is the issue, with access to Swords Dance the icing on a crazy damaging cake. None of these calcs are going to include items, so remember there's also the option to use Black Glasses.
+2 252+ Atk Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Normal Mew: 258-304 (63.8 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Normal Mew: 313-370 (77.4 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
That's a neutral typing Mew with full HP investment, and it's taking up to 75% from a Sucker Punch and up to 90% from a Kowtow Cleave with zero Supreme Overlord stacks. It takes three stacks for Kowtow to be a guaranteed OHKO, while four stacks gives Sucker a chance and five makes it a favorable roll:
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Normal Mew: 409-483 (101.2 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 4 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Normal Mew: 361-426 (89.3 - 105.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Normal Mew: 387-456 (95.7 - 112.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
That's no hazards, four stacks is a guaranteed OHKO for Sucker Punch with just one layer of Spikes. I'm using Mew as an example because Mew's pretty bulky, but most things aren't packing 100/100 defenses; neutral typing Dragapult isn't frail, with 88/75 defenses, and it just dies:
+2 252+ Atk Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Dragon Dragapult: 328-387 (103.4 - 122%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 2 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Dragon Dragapult: 393-463 (103.4 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
No stacks needed without bulk investment, two stacks for max HP - again, without hazards, and on a neutral typing opponent.
This is the core problem behind Kingambit, not its synergy with defensive terastalization, not its power with tera-Dark, not the flexible item slot, it does huge numbers with a priority move while having enough bulk to eat any opposing priority except a Breloom Mach Punch (bulky SD Kingambit always survives a 252 Attack LO Pawmott Mach Punch!).
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Concerns about cascading bans are also not supposed to be taken into account with bans, "If we ban X then we'll have to ban Y and Z" is explicitly not a valid argument for a tiering decision. If Kingambit eats a ban, either other mons rise up in use (potentially including Bisharp, who now has Eviolite to roughly match Kingambit's bulk, though obviously not its firepower) or we ban the things that Kingambit formerly checked. If cascading bans become an actual problem, we can revisit past decisions, but we shouldn't base current actions off pure theorymon like that.
I personally believe that Terastallization is like an OM, there are many Pokémon who abuse the mechanic (similar to how Scizor abuses the Shared Power gimmick, if you’ve played it you’ll know), and because of this other Pokémon become less viable. The OM’s have a separate banlist for the big abusers, and so does OU at the moment.
So I propose;
#2. Terastal Power will become a new OM tier, that will be playable under the Other Metagames tier on Pokémon Showdown! at all times. The Pokémon currently banned in OU will be the official banlist for that tier.
#3. The council will vote on a leader for the Terastal Power tier, which will be held four days after the results of this vote are complete.
#4. Pokémon previously banned, such as Annihilape, Espathra, Regieleki, and many others will be suspected.
What this will solve is the dilemma between people who want to keep the generational gimmick, and those who dislike the effect it has on the OverUsed metagame. Do you think this is a viable option? If so, like the post and I will add your name to a list of supporters.
So I propose;
Snack Terastal Compromise
(Yes, I’m trademarking that)
#1. Terastallization will be set to get banned from the OverUsed tier. However, this ban will not come into effect until Steps 2-3 are complete.(Yes, I’m trademarking that)
#2. Terastal Power will become a new OM tier, that will be playable under the Other Metagames tier on Pokémon Showdown! at all times. The Pokémon currently banned in OU will be the official banlist for that tier.
#3. The council will vote on a leader for the Terastal Power tier, which will be held four days after the results of this vote are complete.
#4. Pokémon previously banned, such as Annihilape, Espathra, Regieleki, and many others will be suspected.
What this will solve is the dilemma between people who want to keep the generational gimmick, and those who dislike the effect it has on the OverUsed metagame. Do you think this is a viable option? If so, like the post and I will add your name to a list of supporters.
Finch do you think we could have a temporary suspect ladder for tera reqs, and make it so the ladder has no tera to better give people both points of view while laddering for suspect reqs? It sounds like a really good idea honestly, since the ladder would not be permanent and would only be for this suspect, therefore it wouldn't be a dreamworld metagame disaster like in gen 5.
This doesn't solve anything, considering that metagame will have far less players most likely and won't be worth maintaining. Remember the gen 5 dream world metagame and how that failed to take off? Yeah...
This doesn't solve anything, considering that metagame will have far less players most likely and won't be worth maintaining. Remember the gen 5 dream world metagame and how that failed to take off? Yeah...
Sigh... I knew this would somewhat devolve into this. This is NOT a discussion of what should be done to the tera, but to THE SUSPECT TEST METHODOLOGY. What do you think about this mechanic is completely irrelevant for the moment, we just need to go to evaluate the things most people want to evaluate and stablish how we'll proceed during said suspect test to not let ideas and opinions out of the table while proceeding in an efficient way. Please leave all the Pro/anti-tera commentary for the next discussion.
Let's Extend this logic then. Don't like playing the game with Flutter Mane or Palafin? Why bother banning them, we have old gens that don't have those Pokémon. I don't think we "need to live with unrestricted Tera" when over 60% of players surveyed favor restriction. I realize there are voices critical of measures like Tera Blast ban and especially Tera Preview but there are voices critical of every position on all sides. Ausma's posts on Tera Blast are very well reasoned and address most people's concern on that restriction very effectively, I would recommend looking them over; TB ban wasn't even on my radar as something that would help but she changed my mind significantly. Preview could go either way but I wouldn't completely discount it. Overall we don't have to "accept" broken mechanics or broken aspects of mechanics, even "generational core gimmicks" because wtf even is that and why should we treat them differently, when historically tiering against these oh so special mechanics has never been off the table. A suspect also offers ample space for people's opinions to form and change
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Finch said:
So basically your compromise is we ban Terastilization
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