Serious The Education System

[ShortsTheory]

I was thinking about making a thread on this for a while, but never got to it, till I saw this video.

To start off, it would probably help if I give you a brief introduction where I'm coming from: I'm a 15-year old high school sophomore educated under India's CBSE.

You spend up to 12 years in school before you graduate. That's an awful lot of time, and it would be almost criminal to have all that time wasted. IMO, the education system has plenty of shortcomings from where I come from. It's practically a gigantic human resource assembly line in which you have loads of students coming from all of the imaginable sections of society. Our education system shapes every student's mind to be as similar as possible with minimal scope for the slightest shred of innovation or ingenuity. It's not like the problem stops there, we're graded on irrelevant criteria which is incredibly subjective (10 marks for showing respect to India's national anthem, really?). In the end, you're left with a system that only benefits average pupils, and nothing in it for the more or less gifted. Sadly, it's a colossal waste of talent, since you're not given the choice to drop any subjects till 11th grade.

It's not any better that when you realise that school's all about getting good grades, and not about actually learning things (read: Indian education). IMO it would be a lot better if one could study without the pressure of exams. That's where actual interest is the motive for learning things,

Also, a few notable points from a blog post of mine detailing a few things wrong with India's educational system:

Emphasis on exams: What the education board has largely taught the majority of Indian students is that failure in exams is tantamount to failure in life. It screams to say that exams are the most important thing that could have happened since the Big Bang, and that failing could just as well result in the destruction of the universe itself. It would be an understatement to say that "10th graders in India suicide", because the existence threatening virus has got to almost all age groups. For the sake of lives, try to change these stereotypes, CBSE.

Lack of thinking problems: OK, I know what my fellow students are thinking on these counts in math (no pun intended), but problems like these are reserved for "higher classes". It's like slowly walking on a long path and then being forced to run a marathon. Yeah, these problems can't be left out early for the benefit of the "average student". Sure, it is tough going early, but it will pay off in the end. The bar of the "average student" needs to be raised a notch higher on the metaphoric ladder.

#grammar chatlog

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<V0x> who is a super biology expert
<V0x> who can explain why the multiple cloning site in pbluescript doesn't disrupt the lac-z gene
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<Stone_Cold22> bloo can
<Stone_Cold22> sirndpt can
<Stone_Cold22> greatsage prob can
<Stone_Cold22> cause that nigga is a genius
<V0x> lol
<V0x> ended up finding it on google
<V0x> wait bloo in a bio guy+
<V0x> ?
<Stone_Cold22> he's a science guy
<Stone_Cold22> and i think
<Stone_Cold22> he's bio?
<Stone_Cold22> i know he works in a lab and shit
<Stone_Cold22> but science is zzzz in general
<V0x> i see
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<ibojangles> yeah bloo's a biochem major
<amarillo> smogon ppl too smart
<amarillo> >_>
<Stone_Cold22> nah
<V0x> :O
<Stone_Cold22> im dumb as fuck
<Stone_Cold22> nvm I make prosthetics for a living, im smart as fuck.
<V0x> more fma automail pls
<amarillo> lol
<amarillo> prosthetics?
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<Stone_Cold22> yeah
<Stone_Cold22> prosthetics
<Stone_Cold22> da boss
<stheory> I might be able to help you with physics
<stheory> forget about bio though
<V0x> ah
<V0x> i'm p donezo with physics though
<stheory> 'hm?
<stheory> Bio's just doesn't work for me
<stheory> There are too many things to remember
<V0x> yeah i don't like it either
<V0x> but it's a req for chem
<stheory> Ah
<stheory> In high school in india, you can't drop any subjects till 11th grade
<stheory> so I'm stuck with bio for another year :(
<V0x> :P
<stheory> education is so silly in india
<SuperJOCKE> You know where it is silly? In the states.
<stheory> The states sounds good to me
<stheory> SuperJOCKE, aren't you swedish?
<SuperJOCKE> Swedish = amrican
<SuperJOCKE> Who knew?
<V0x> nah states is v meh
<stheory> It sounds great to me
<stheory> You can pursue different courses, drop subjects, make decisons, etc.
<SuperJOCKE> Be happy with what you got instead
<stheory> mate, Indian education is a bitch
<SuperJOCKE> Don't wish for that school system.
<stheory> why not?
<V0x> i guess but there are a lot of really dumb people .-.
<stheory> doesn't sound concievably bad to have a school system like that
<stheory> V0x, stupidity is universal
<V0x> yes
<V0x> but
<V0x> like
<ibojangles> yes, stupidity is universal
<ibojangles> example: v0x is dumb
<V0x> people learning algebra in 10th grade
<V0x> 3_3
<stheory> I won't pass judgement on that
<stheory> what's wrong with algebra in 10th?
<stheory> We do that in india too
<V0x> they just don't care
<stheory> The problem is
<stheory> that the level of content of indian syllabus is really poor
<stheory> that because there are lots of poor people in india
<stheory> who simply can't give a fuck about learning more complex things
<Stone_Cold22> stfu v0x
<stheory> and to make decisions
<Stone_Cold22> I did algebra in 9th!
<stheory> mhmmm.
<Stone_Cold22> then again
<Stone_Cold22> i hate math in general
<Stone_Cold22> english/history is my shit
<V0x> did you do well is the question
<Stone_Cold22> fuck science too
<stheory> I like math
<Stone_Cold22> v0x
<Stone_Cold22> i did shit
<Stone_Cold22> at math
<Stone_Cold22> in general
<Stone_Cold22> lol
<stheory> V0x, I'm doing okay
<Stone_Cold22> i mean
<Stone_Cold22> i passed
<Stone_Cold22> but
<Stone_Cold22> i had like
<stheory> congrats Stone_Cold22
<Stone_Cold22> B's and C's
<V0x> ok but then you did well in history and stuff
<Stone_Cold22> A's in both
<stheory> ugh, indian history sucks
<stheory> so many random things to learn
<Stone_Cold22> indian history seems p boring
<Stone_Cold22> lol
<V0x> yes these people just fail everything
<stheory> ibojangles, what's your stance on american schooling systems?
<V0x> even though
<V0x> they are perfectly capable
<SuperJOCKE> Yeah, you all got it bad. You have to go to shcool. Boohooo.
<ibojangles> its good for people at either extreme but meh for average people
<stheory> Ah, I like extremities
<stheory> Indian education is merely for those below/at average
<stheory> it's not giving you anything if you're good/skilled in a particular field
<ibojangles> well most people are average
<stheory> haha
<ibojangles> so its kind of a problem
<V0x> idk a lot of public schools aren't great for the really advanced
<stheory> But, you can't cultivate geniuses in the Indian system at all
<stheory> You're probably better dropping out for what it's worth
<stheory> <ibojangles> its good for people at either extreme
<stheory> interesting
<stheory> why the lower extreme?
<stheory> I can understand why it would be good for smart guys, but why for stupid ppl as well?
<ibojangles> lots of schools have a lot of programs in place to help people with learning disorders and stuff
<V0x> no it's not good for smart people imo
<stheory> This could be a classic aForum debate
<stheory> India's edu is far too grade-centric
<stheory> You do well in exams
<ibojangles> if this was an aforum debate i would've linked a gif by now
<stheory> or you die
<stheory> ideally ibo
<V0x> college in kinda like that though
<V0x> exams and lab
<V0x> if it's since
<ibojangles> well we have the SAT but thats just an objectively stupid test
<stheory> I hate it when teachers say, "Boohoo, school's easy, you have no idea what happens in the REAL world"
<stheory> Isn't that the purpose of school altogether?
<stheory> to prepare one for the real world?
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<stheory> I did the PSAT a couple of times
<amarillo> lol
<stheory> When I was a freshman, I got 190 on the index or something, dunno if that's good or not
<stheory> I didn't prepare for it per se
<ibojangles> the SAT is much longer than the PSAT iirc
<amarillo> 190>_>
<V0x> yeah
<V0x> sat is about double
<amarillo> sat is just mentally exhausting idk about it being
<amarillo> actually hard
<stheory> idk, i think190 was the 2nd heighest
<stheory> 195 was the heighest
<V0x> although kids from like china and singapore can get 2400s
<V0x> so idk what that says about the test
<amarillo> isnt pset out of 240
<amarillo> y u no good enuf
<amarillo> !!!!!!!!!
<amarillo> (jk)
<ibojangles> i dont even remember what i got on the psat
<ibojangles> that was like 4 years ago
<amarillo> yeah v0x thats all about standardized tests
<stheory> psat doesn't go too far in india
<amarillo> every standardized test is gonna have a way for the chinese or indians or whatever to just cram the hell out
<stheory> there's not much point in giving it
<amarillo> and ace it
<stheory> Eh, I don't promote cramming at all
<amarillo> lol
<stheory> It's a waste of human resources
<amarillo> well it gets the results and sadly thats what most ppl care about anyways
<stheory> :(
<ibojangles> after you get into college nobody really cares about the sat either
<amarillo> lol
<ibojangles> nobody will ever ask me what my sat score is again
<stheory> Ah, may I ask which college ibo?
<amarillo> yeah
<amarillo> hes an ivy
<amarillo> person
<stheory> !
<amarillo> iirc
<ibojangles> columbia
<amarillo> shucks
<stheory> ah!!!
<amarillo> isn't v0x also in
<stheory> Is GreatSage an MITian?
<amarillo> a ridic good school
<ibojangles> yeah gs goes to mit
<V0x> yeah gs is at mit
<stheory> !
<stheory> That's awesome
<amarillo> !
<stheory> What kind of a pokemon culture is there in MIT?
<ibojangles> jump went to harvard, chaos goes to princeton
<amarillo> lol
<stheory> Fantastic
<ibojangles> iirc bloo goes to stanford?
<amarillo> is there a smogonite for
<V0x> lolwut
<Steamroll> Bloo is a boss
<stheory> I thought chaos went to a liberal arts school in kentucky?
<amarillo> every ivy / other ridic schools
<V0x> zzz
<Steamroll> lol stheory
<ibojangles> he goes to princeton for grad school
<Steamroll> ^
<V0x> oh there's another smogonite here
<Steamroll> bojangles goes to Columbia
<V0x> stathkis or w/e
<Steamroll> UNI RIVALS
<stheory> Oh wow
<amarillo> wait v0x are u in duke
<Steamroll> haven't seen or heard of another smogonite in VTech
<stheory> Smogon really is an abode of genii
<V0x> yeah
<amarillo> ajajajajajajajaja
<ibojangles> brb, gonna make myself some eggs
<amarillo> my friend in duke
<Steamroll> v0x goes to Duke?
<Steamroll> wat?
<amarillo> also plays mons
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<stheory> jumpluff goes to UNSW
<amarillo> !!!!
<Steamroll> like half my high school wound up in duke
<V0x> lol
<Steamroll> I have no clue how
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<V0x> wait i thought jump was at duke law
<stheory> sirn goes to cambridge
<Steamroll> a graduating class of 426
<stheory> Wait guys
<Steamroll> and 203 go to Duke
<stheory> how does one get into an ivy league?
<Steamroll> :\
<V0x> lolwut
<Steamroll> incredibly good grades
<V0x> are you serious steam
<stheory> do you need to be super-smart+have loads of cash
<V0x> 203
<Steamroll> I am 100% serious
<stheory> or just super-smart?
<amarillo> lol stheory
<Steamroll> Two Hundred and Three
<amarillo> first you have to
<amarillo> apply
<amarillo> !
<V0x> you don't need a lot of cash
<stheory> I heard MIT costs $100,000pa
<amarillo> grants and
<Steamroll> lolwut
<amarillo> shit
<stheory> scholarships?
<Steamroll> that's kinda bull
<amarillo> those schools are rich
<amarillo> ya know
<stheory> apparently
<Steamroll> Fordham costs more than MIT
<Steamroll> and they're like
<Steamroll> $65,000 a year
<stheory> idk where I'll end up
<stheory> probably some indian uni
<Steamroll> Fordham is fuckall expensive
<stheory> such as IIT or something
<Steamroll> NO NO
<Steamroll> DON'T DO THAT SHIT
<stheory> eh?
<amarillo> IIT?
<stheory> IIT isn't bad
<amarillo> IIT is quality i thought
<Steamroll> it's a fucking rip-off
<stheory> Indian Institute of Technology
<amarillo> lol
<amarillo> its INDIANS
<amarillo> working on COMPUTERS
<amarillo> how better can you get
<stheory> :(
<Steamroll> oh indians as in india
<stheory> or maybe some singapore school
<Steamroll> or?
<stheory> singapore's good
<stheory> safer than the states
<Steamroll> PS V0x
<stheory> and I can meet sandz or something
<stheory> :D
<Steamroll> Virginia Tech is an in-state school for my old high school
<Steamroll> and only like
<Steamroll> 5 kids are going
<Steamroll> apparently
<stheory> eh?
<stheory> lol
<Steamroll> 5 out of 426
<stheory> small class I bet
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<amarillo> lol steamroll if that many kids went to duke
<amarillo> wtf is up with your high school
<Steamroll> and more than 2/3rds of my school wants to become an engineer
<Steamroll> My high school
<amarillo> is this some special high school
<Steamroll> is basically a bunch of hicks
<amarillo> o
<amarillo> wtf>
<stheory> In India, you have 2 options: engineer or doctor
<Steamroll> in a metropolitian area
<stheory> or maybe both
<amarillo> lol
<Steamroll> I am Dr. Engineer
<Steamroll> Prognosis
<stheory> I really need to get off the computer now
<V0x> BME
<stheory> I love linux
<V0x> lol
<Steamroll> Get on my salary's level!
<amarillo> you should get a phd and be a doctor
<stheory> Goodbye!
<amarillo> so you can be a DOCTOR DOCTOR!
<stheory> =.=

So, what is your stance on your country's education system? Share your thoughts about where you think it's lacking and where it can be improved!

edit: happy .1k to myself!

 

[HiipFire]

Holy shit dude, I was gonna make a giant post about how the dutch education system sucks, but it seems like it's even worse over there in India.

 

[Trax]

Lack of thinking problems: OK, I know what my fellow students are thinking on these counts in math (no pun intended), but problems like these are reserved for "higher classes".

If you mean what I think you mean by thinking problems (I'm assuming you mean logic problems and scenarios where you have to work out *how* to solve the problem).


This problem is everywhere so far as I can tell, even here in Australia (which has a fairly good education system) most people come out of schooling with no idea how to sit down and work through a problem; based on people I've worked with (who have been educated several fairly diverse countries) problem solving is always learned outside of school, many people with good schooling and university results still can't really think up ways to solve a problem they don't already know a method of solving.


Part of the problem is that lateral thinking and inductive/deductive reasoning are insanely difficult to teach and harder still to quantify.

 

[ck49]

Another person in Bangalore! Awesome. Which school? (PM me)

As for the education system, I agree whole-heartedly (though I've never seen someone gain marks for showing respect to the national anthem. Even though I am taking IGCSE and (now) A-levels, the teachers teach the same way. People are taught not to question and obey, basically, and that's the worst thing you can do. Growing up in the US, elementary school was based around growing in terms of how you learn, whereas here it was all based around facts. I was slightly behind when moving here, but its easy enough to catch up when everything is fact based.

Also, too many people don't pay attention in class, knowing that everything the teacher's say will just have to be memorized. Most people pay thousands of dollars for tuition outside of school and have gotten so used to re-learning everything outside of school that they feel like there's no point in listening in class.

Finally, this may because I go to a smaller school, but there's no such thing as an AP course here. In the US I was ahead in a couple classes, namely math. Here I had to sit through two years of stuff I had already done and learned nothing in that time (in that class). In the US I would be taking AP courses instead, but now I've lost that 2 year's advantage by doing nothing (partially my fault too, I guess).

 

[yee]

I very highly recommend reading The Six-Lesson Schoolteacher by John Taylor Gatto to see how he breaks down his thoughts on school systems if you don't like your own or are wondering why kids are turning into zombies. He makes a very strong argument that what his job teaching was consisted of-


1. Kids need to put in the right place with no way out.

2. They must be indifferent to a lesson because the bell will ring and they will be sent somewhere else whether or not they were interested.

3. Rights may be taken by authority with no appeal.

4. Only the teacher can decide what to study.

5. Self-respect should depend on a measure given of their worth.

6. They are being watched at all times, there is no private time.


Thats part of a tl;dr but if you're interested at all take the whole thing- this isn't like one of those tl;dr posts that can be summed into a few bullet points to get the full message across.

 

[Stratos]

good i'm not the only person who absolutely despises our (global) education system!! It just feels like bashing my head against a wall for seven hours a day as i learn things I don't really want to and don't get to learn the things I do want to - more math, science, physics, chem, computers please, i don't give a fuck about The Scarlet Letter or Spanish

e: shortstheory you should give this thread a (serious) tag so bad users don't come shit on it

 

[Trax]

good i'm not the only person who absolutely despises our (global) education system!! It just feels like bashing my head against a wall for seven hours a day as i learn things I don't really want to and don't get to learn the things I do want to - more math, science, physics, chem, computers please, i don't give a fuck about The Scarlet Letter or Spanish

I used to feel this way; in hindsight though books are just another mechanism to try and make sense of our world -- they're a way into some of the more complex questions, albeit a kind of terrible one to do in the form of study.

 

[ShortsTheory]

If you mean what I think you mean by thinking problems (I'm assuming you mean logic problems and scenarios where you have to work out *how* to solve the problem).


This problem is everywhere so far as I can tell, even here in Australia (which has a fairly good education system) most people come out of schooling with no idea how to sit down and work through a problem; based on people I've worked with (who have been educated several fairly diverse countries) problem solving is always learned outside of school, many people with good schooling and university results still can't really think up ways to solve a problem they don't already know a method of solving.


Part of the problem is that lateral thinking and inductive/deductive reasoning are insanely difficult to teach and harder still to quantify.

Yeah, that's what I meant by "thinking problems". I wouldn't say that you can teach "thinking", but it is certainly possible to tap one's innate intellectual capabilities with thinking. I almost doubled my mental ability scores after going for extra classes for MAT.

As for the education system, I agree whole-heartedly (though I've never seen someone gain marks for showing respect to the national anthem. Even though I am taking IGCSE and (now) A-levels, the teachers teach the same way. People are taught not to question and obey, basically, and that's the worst thing you can do. Growing up in the US, elementary school was based around growing in terms of how you learn, whereas here it was all based around facts. I was slightly behind when moving here, but its easy enough to catch up when everything is fact based.

Also, too many people don't pay attention in class, knowing that everything the teacher's say will just have to be memorized. Most people pay thousands of dollars for tuition outside of school and have gotten so used to re-learning everything outside of school that they feel like there's no point in listening in class.

I think you got most of your points spot on over there. I go to a CBSE curriculum school, and there they have the infamous implementation of a monstrosity of a scheme called the CCE where you're graded on all sorts of random non-academic criteria. Apparently, standing in attention without smirking during the national anthem is one of them. They also judge on subjective criteria such as personal presentation (whether you've cut your hair, uniform is ironed, shaved, etc.), classroom behaviour and interaction. It feels bad that you need to be marked for every word you say in class. I mean, is that educational freedom? Moreover, t's a clerical nightmare to evaluate on 60-odd grading points.

good i'm not the only person who absolutely despises our (global) education system!! It just feels like bashing my head against a wall for seven hours a day as i learn things I don't really want to and don't get to learn the things I do want to - more math, science, physics, chem, computers please, i don't give a fuck about The Scarlet Letter or Spanish

e: shortstheory you should give this thread a (serious) tag so bad users don't come shit on it

Yeah, I pretty much agree with ya. I'm not too good linguistically (though my English is relatively above par. I would really love to pursue the subjects that I LOVE to do. That would make school a much better place. I really don't accept the argument that learning literature is part of "the building blocks of knowledge". We would be able to cultivate so MANY more smart people that way.

And, thanks :) I changed the tag!

 

[kittenmay]

The education system in America really makes me angry (although its certainly not the worst one out there) - namely, the expense of higher education. Its infuriating as to how expensive they make education here, and then complain that they don't create enough *insert important job that requires education here*. In addition, they keep lowering the passing grades in some areas, and so I'm going to college with people who never even knew how to do algebra. And I'm not blaming them, but its awful to think about. "No child left behind", my ass

 

[RitterCat]

Yeah the problem with so many education systems is that higher education is based not on merit or on effort but on money. There are only a handful of public schools in my city (Melbourne, Australia) that can keep up with the quality of private schools, which just have more money, better teachers, more extension, more facilities etc. I'm lucky enough to be at one and the education is amazing, there's a ton of extension for those higher, systems in place for the lower, and good teachers for the average, but I'm only one of a privileged percentage, and the people at public schools from poorer families who can't afford private schools and can't go to the good public schools are just at a massive disadvantage

That's why I think a system like Germany's (where I'm on exchange right know) is much better in principle, if it's specific execution isn't perfect. It's basically a meritocracy, so at the end of their primary school (which goes for 4 years) there is a big test and you then either go to a Gymasium (the best level of school), a Realschule (medium/average level of kids), which is a few years shorter than Gymnasium, or to a Hauptschule, which is like a trade school, so learning physical trades and such. If you perform especially badly/really well you can then be shifted between schools

I prefer this a lot in principle, but I find the time of the big test to be too soon (only four years of school, they're like 10), and statistically most people from higher educated families to to Gymnasien and those of lower educated families go to Real/Hauptschule, but it is still possible to get to a good school from disadvantage, even if it is a rare occurrence.

idk schooling systems are hard to get right because making it affordable and quality for those of lower background/intelligence while making it good for the average majority while extending and fostering the intelligent is really really really hard, if even achievable. However it is clear that some countries do it better than others, and every system can do little improvements, but big changes take time and money and changing established systems is a difficult, lengthy, costly process.

I've actually had this discussion quite a bit with my older host sister so yeah, there's no real conclusion to this ramble except education systems are hard but with time and money they can get better

Edit: fuck I must have been thinking about this more than I thought, I went all birkal on it

 

[zpattack12]

In my opinion, and I'm not very qualified being a 9th grader, but to truly teach well, you need to learn to learn by yourself, if that makes sense. It is a hell of a lot harder to do that, and you will probably have a lot of students pissed off because they say they aren't being taught anything, or that they didn't know how to do that, but it is impossible to learn everything you need, and you need to know how to figure things out for yourself in order to advance society. The more regimented it is, the more society is going to be stagnant.

I'm a pretty good student, and I take all honors classes. The way the honors system works in my school, you are kind of thrown in, learn a concept, and figure out how to use that concept by yourself. In some classes, it works (Alg II, Physics), and in others it doesn't work, partially due to my teacher (English). I am a lot better off for it, and I know a lot more for it, even if it takes me failing something first.

I have been to India, being Indian myself, and I have seen how horrible the education system is there. I remember seeing people who were forced to memorize definitions word-by-word. You don't learn that way. People say that if you can teach it, you truly know it. You don't know how to teach something if you are just reciting definitions.

To the people who hate that they force down all these different subjects on you, there is a very good reason to learn it. I'm in 9th grade and I still have no clue what I want to do. As you get through high school, you can start changing your schedule to start doing what YOU want, but they don't want you to drop out of something possibly important because you don't like it.

@Pwnemon what grade are you in?

 

[VKCA]

Holy shit dude, I was gonna make a giant post about how the dutch education system sucks, but it seems like it's even worse over there in India.

It's awful everywhere. But also no shit, of course it's worse in india. India's a third world country, whereas the netherlands/holland (sorry I'm not good with your geography, if you mean dutch like deutsch then germany) are a first world of the best kind.

Part of the problem is that lateral thinking and inductive/deductive reasoning are insanely difficult to teach and harder still to quantify.

Forgive me if I sound like a sarcastic asshole, but doesn't the thread sort of stop here? what else is there? I mean I guess america has a bunch of tangental issues involving money and starving kids etc that make school performance worse, but fundamentally isn't this a very big problem? School is an A for effort. I could have gotten As in highschool. I don't think I should be able to get As in highschool, I'm too fuckin stupid.
The school system is too easy to game, particularly maths and sciences. I should have to work for a 75% in a course, not get floated to an eighty because there isn't anything challenging in the workload. All I learned in any math or science courses was "here's a methodology for solving specific problems, here's that specific problem a hundred times with *new* (!!) numbers"
it's funny though, because then you end up with all the kids who are smart/worthwhile/trying getting 98++ because the work you do is so easy if you practice for it.

 

[Stratos]

it's funny though, because then you end up with all the kids who are smart/worthwhile/trying getting 98++ because the work you do is so easy if you practice for it.

actually most of the smart kids at my school consider the ultimate challenge to be getting an exactly 90% because they don't care to do all the graded classworks or homework bullshit because our school system is such shit

 

[Woodchuck]

one of the issues is that the education system has cultivated a culture of perfection. if the child doesn't get an A it's not because the child didn't do something special, it's because the child did something WRONG.
A is what grade the child is "supposed" to get for doing what is expected of them rather than the grade they get for going above and beyond. this is why critical thinking is so neglected and left untaught in the lower levels of school; it is "unfair" to teach it because the process involved in teaching critical thinking involves children getting, gasp, a grade lower than an A when they are unable to solve a difficult problem that actually requires critical thinking!

this is also why every math course up until you get into calculus is a piece of shit. most students can learn the process and the habit to do all of the repetitive problems by rote, but when they need to apply that knowledge and problem-solving ability to actual problems, they fall apart in the implementation. people can muddle through HS math classes all the way up to calculus without ever learning critical thinking because they can just follow their "habit" trained into them by the teachers for each type of problem.
and then they hit calculus, where you need to think about things and prove each step, and be able to reason out a problem rather than follow a procedure.

this type of critical thinking skill needs to be introduced far earlier than 11th/12th grade or college. but the challenge with this has already been stated: it is difficult to standardize, teach, and test reasoning. however, these skills are more important than anything else at school, so an educational system that cannot teach these is almost useless. (i will agree that learning the skills of how to "execute" problem solving aka the things you learn by rote in math classes are needed, but not as much as basic problem solving skills)

edit: i have a very narrow conception of how calculus is taught (namely my teachers on the subject have been excellent and encouraged critical thinking...) so i defer to your experience of it. consider substituting 'logic and proofs' for every time i mention calculus.

 

[billymills]

this is also why every math course up until you get into calculus is a piece of shit. most students can learn the process and the habit to do all of the repetitive problems by rote, but when they need to apply that knowledge and problem-solving ability to actual problems, they fall apart in the implementation. people can muddle through HS math classes all the way up to calculus without ever learning critical thinking because they can just follow their "habit" trained into them by the teachers for each type of problem.
and then they hit calculus, where you need to think about things and prove each step, and be able to reason out a problem rather than follow a procedure.

I have seen calculus taught in a number of different ways (at least 3), and there is nothing that separates calculus from any other math course. It can be taught in an incredibly repetitive fashion without any sort of problem solving ability. It can be taught incredibly intuitively with focus on problem-solving and lateral thinking. This completely depends on how it is taught, and often why or by whom it is taught, but, of course, this is exactly the same for any other type of mathematics. Calculus and proving are not synonymous in any way. Calculus can be taught without proofs, and addition can be taught with proofs. If you are arguing to introduce logic and proofs earlier then I agree with you, but I think logic should be included without the immediate introduction of calculus.

I agree with a lot of what has been brought up here already in that there is way too hard a focus on perfection and that the testing system is mediocre at best.

I'd love to see further emphasis on students learning without being directly taught. I'd like to see a whole math class research, say, trigonometry, before it is taught to them, and then try to teach each other how it all works. I'd like to see group homework where students have to answer a problem that is above their level with a focus getting the smarter students to be able to teach those who aren't up to pace. Being able to teach and being able to learn independently are two aspects I think demonstrate the most expertise over a subject.

 

[VKCA]

one of the issues is that the education system has cultivated a culture of perfection. if the child doesn't get an A it's not because the child didn't do something special, it's because the child did something wrong.

Man I could have just not made my post at all. Wonderfully summed up.

I'd love to see further emphasis on students learning without being directly taught. I'd like to see a whole math class research, say, trigonometry, before it is taught to them, and then try to teach each other how it all works. I'd like to see group homework where students have to answer a problem that is above their level with a focus getting the smarter students to be able to teach those who aren't up to pace. Being able to teach and being able to learn independently are two aspects I think demonstrate the most expertise over a subject.

There's this lovely little anecdote I read once by this teacher of applied grade nine math about how while teaching trigonometry the entire class went on a tangental (BOOOM, I fucken raped that pun, get out of beddd) discussion about real/complex numbers (from questions about pi presumably). These students who normally had no interest in math at all (lower-level, mostly hoods, been bad at math all their life, dads in jail, etc)(did I mention they're minorities man the cards are just stacked against these poor mother fuckers) were now enthusiastically asking questions. Some of the kids did research over night and came back with more questions for the teacher. This inspired the teacher to do a daily advanced math lesson at the end of her class where she'd teach the kids about random higher level math. I think I might be mixing up two stories with that last sentence
but regardless you know, cute stuff like that, kids love learning if it's presented interestingly enough

 

[Myzozoa]

critical thinking skills are not taught in american public education, so people don't learn to examine and criticize institutions and constructs that dominate the social aspects of society. this is why poor people vote for republicans, they do not learn these skills and they get swept away by rhetoric instead of examining the implications conservative policies have for their lives.

 

[Ray Jay]

So I was thinking the other day.

In all of my math classes through high school, we would learn the chapter or whatever in class and then be assigned homework problems.

What if, instead, our homework was to take notes on the chapter, and then when we got to class we did practice problems the whole time? I need the teacher's help with the problems, not with taking the notes.

Just a thought.

 

[ShortsTheory]

So I was thinking the other day.

In all of my math classes through high school, we would learn the chapter or whatever in class and then be assigned homework problems.

What if, instead, our homework was to take notes on the chapter, and then when we got to class we did practice problems the whole time? I need the teacher's help with the problems, not with taking the notes.

Just a thought.

I suppose there's some merit in the teacher explaining the concept first. It doesn't sound like a great idea to take notes as homework anyway. Math homework is something I won't argue about, since one of our math teachers does a really good job in explaining concepts and we do some problems in class too.

Anyway, I love the points in the new flood of posts on this thread. Keep it up! :D

 

[Umbreon Dan]

you're not going to hear my argue that the education system is without its faults. that's just not true. but, to keep it in perspective, remember that the system of universal public education has done more good for the modern world than just about any other single innovation in history.

we're gradually improving it as we learn what works better. this generation, having gone through this education system, should have much better ideas for how it's to be done in the future!

 

[Nails]

This problem is everywhere so far as I can tell, even here in Australia (which has a fairly good education system) most people come out of schooling with no idea how to sit down and work through a problem; based on people I've worked with (who have been educated several fairly diverse countries) problem solving is always learned outside of school, many people with good schooling and university results still can't really think up ways to solve a problem they don't already know a method of solving.

Not gonna comment on the thread as a whole but picking up competitive pokes has probably been the single best thing for me on this topic, team building and analyzing the metagame to figure which of 70-80 pokes works the best vs the popular trends and how that fits together into a team, and making creative new sets is a fantastic way to flex your creativity and problem solving skills.

In regards to the thread, gonna agree with UD on his post.

 

[whistle]

don't really have anything to add but here is an interesting article i found a few weeks ago: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...-you/201211/us-math-achievement-how-bad-is-it

especially the section on "math as rules vs math as a system" - students gave these answers when asked what it means to be good at math:

• “In math, sometimes you have to just accept that that’s the way it is and there’s no reason behind it.”
• “I don’t think [being good at math] has anything to do with reasoning. It’s all memorization.”

 

[MegaBuddha]

America has one of the worst education systems. These children can't think for themselves. They are zombies. Most of the top science PhD applicants are foreign born.

 

[zpattack12]

I think the biggest issue for most people is that school is for everyone, and it's so expensive to get into a private school that can cater to everyone. People are mad about doing things they don't want, other people like it, class too easy/hard, it's perfect for someone else. It is a lot better in richer school districts where they can offer so much more, such as mine, where there are so many options, but there are so many districts that just can't do it. It's better to enrich the many, not just the few.

 

[Woodchuck]

So I was thinking the other day.

In all of my math classes through high school, we would learn the chapter or whatever in class and then be assigned homework problems.

What if, instead, our homework was to take notes on the chapter, and then when we got to class we did practice problems the whole time? I need the teacher's help with the problems, not with taking the notes.

Just a thought.

There's actually some school I've heard of that assigns students to watch Khan Academy videos at home to learn the material, and then in class the students do practice problems and ask the teacher questions for clarification-- basically exactly what you have described.

There are a bunch of interesting pilot programs involving Khan Academy, apparently, including the state of Idaho?

using technology like this could potentially free up teachers to help students more constructively and individually.