The First Smogon Council - Salamence

[Game Freak201]

Maybe we should have people sig that having no counters or being unique aren't necessarily Uber qualities. But of course, we already know that it doesn't work with all those sigs stating that performance in Ubers doesn't matter.

Pro-OU people are trying to unfairly compare Salamence to other wallbreakers. This is not fair. they are completely different.

When I'm checking if a Pokemon is Uber or not, it's imperative for me to see the effects it has on the metagame. Since the wall breaker set is being called "broken", it makes sense to compare it to other wall breakers in the metagame. What makes Salamence more broken than the likes of Dragonite, Kingdra, and Infernape? Give us a reason why this is true.

its just that its ridiculous. I cannot run a proper team anymore without carrying 2 pokemon to ease my life with dealing with salamence.

If i dont carry a bulky enough steel type (scizor and scarf tran arent bulky enough) ill be dying from Meteors and Outrages all day. And then, if i dont carry a good revenge killers or good priority user, i cant kill him.

add to that the fact that you need to be SUPERB with your predicition.

I just find that all this for one pokemon becomes a little much.

First off, what's a proper team? I don't even think of Mence when I build teams for OU. I just have this amorphous powerful sweeper/wall breaker that my team has to deal with. As long as I go towards my team's win condition, the pokemon on my opponent's side are irrelevant. Then again, my teams are mostly HO, so that's understandable. Even still, My BO teams still don't have much difficulty with Mence. I may run both Scizor and Bronzong, but they're for utility rather than countering. I also use little to no prediction unless it will cost me the game. I prefer to use spammable moves such as Close Combat and Draco Meteor instead of having to think of what my opponent is going to send in. As long as your team is working towards it's win condition and your opponent isn't hindering it, you will most likely win. Also, how is Salamence "a little much"?

 

[TheValkyries]

Ho-oh has a very good chance of stalling Stone Edge out of PP with Substitute and Roost, not to mention Sacred Fire can burn TTar.

What? No it doesn't... Slap a Scarf on TTar, and you OHKO with Stone-Edge before Ho-oh can do ANYTHING. And even with a Burn TTar is still OHKOing. Did you even do any calculations?

I'm quite sure MoP is saying to stop comparing Mence to Ho-oh instead of just mentioning her name. Firstly, TTar does not reliably counter Ho-oh, see above. Secondly, LO/SS/BB recoil isn't like Mence's recoil, where if it loses its health, he's lost it forever. Ho-oh has the moveslot to run Roost (We're not arguing about Mence's Roost sets, because the general consensus is that they are not broken), so it automatically lasts longer than Mence. Again, like I've said to TheValkyries earlier, compare an apple to an apple.

Hey guess what? Both of you missed the part where I flat out said that I wasn't comparing Mence to Ho-oh. I am, and always have been showing you how stupid the residual damage argument is.

 

[OU_Name]

ULTIMATELY-- a pokemon doesn't need solid counters to be OU.

Maybe we should have people sig that having no counters or being unique aren't necessarily Uber qualities.

This is exactly what I've been trying to say. The number of counters for a certain pokemon has very little to do with its tiering. If you want to ignore Ho-Oh, I'll use "Tyranitar vs. Giratina-O" (which Shrang himself mentioned) and yet Giratina-O is still Uber.

Hey guess what? Both of you missed the part where I flat out said that I wasn't comparing Mence to Ho-oh. I am, and always have been showing you how stupid the residual damage argument is.

My apologies. I really did not mean to compare Mence and Ho-oh, but if I did, it was for a completely separate point.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Hey guess what? Both of you missed the part where I flat out said that I wasn't comparing Mence to Ho-oh. I am, and always have been showing you how stupid the residual damage argument is.

SR (and other risidual damage) is relevant to the tiering of both pokemon. It just so happens that Ho-Oh has a LOT more going for it . . .

If Ho-Oh wasn't 4x weak to SR, we wouldn't even be talking about it in this discussion about OU. See any mention of Mewtwo anywhere?

On the note of risidual damage, would Flygon be OU if (magically) it were only neutral to SR, spikes, T-Spikes, and Sand? No, I'm pretty sure Flygon is as popular as it is in large part because it is immune/resistant to those things (combining with his other strengths).

 

[TheValkyries]

SR (and other risidual damage) is relevant to the tiering of both pokemon. It just so happens that Ho-Oh has a LOT more going for it . . .

If Ho-Oh wasn't 4x weak to SR, we wouldn't even be talking about it in this discussion about OU. See any mention of Mewtwo anywhere?

On the note of risidual damage, would Flygon be OU if (magically) it were only neutral to SR, spikes, T-Spikes, and Sand? No, I'm pretty sure Flygon is as popular as it is in large part because it is immune/resistant to those things (combining with his other strengths).

Relevant? Yes. Primary argument as to why Mence isn't broken? Not remotely.

Residual damage can create niches for pokemon such as Flygon to be more useful than others, but a weakness to residual damage does not limit a pokemon's strength in any way. The only thing Residual damage limits is the time a pokemon can spend on the field. But really, even within a tighter time frame, Mence can still muscle its way through the handful of checks he has, creating gaping holes in an opponents team.

 

[Chou Toshio]

No one ever said it was the primary argument. There have been so many arguments (on both sides) I doubt any one is singularly important. I don't know why you act as if that is the only relevant point that's been brought up.

Mence has a tighter time frame, and it is easy enough for him to miss accomplishing anything of real importance within that frame. You say "Gaping Hole" but Salamence could easy find itself dying to accomplish nothing but scratching some dead skin off the enemy team, or not even that-- depending on how it plays out and how the opponent chooses to deal with mence (not only with prediction, but by evaluating the value of his own teammates).

All of this has been repeated so many times though there's little to know value in saying it again.


Edit: I'd also like to expand that finding the proper time to bring out to use him effectively is no easy feat.

-Salamence has no business in the lead game (with no SR, taunt, spin, or priority)

-In the early game, the enemy team is most healthy and prepared to take it on. It's also the point in the game where over-predicting bears the greatest risk for mence itself.

-At any point in the game, there is no switch-in Salamence can make with safety (almost everything can kill him or maim him if he screws up the prediction).

-At any point in the game, the opponent might have fodder that will ruin his chance to achieve something important within his time frame.

-The points in which he can switch in for a revenge kill, he might be switching into something that it itself is already fodder that can stop him from setting up or let him kill anything of importance.

-If he waits too long to come in, he could find himself completely useless on the wrong end of the opponent's late game Empoleon, Flygon, Metagross or Lucario sweep.

That's not to say he can't come in somewhere and cause a mess, but getting the timing right for mence to be effective is no easy feat.

 

[BurningMan]

-Salamence has no business in the lead game (with no SR, taunt, spin, or priority)

he could put early pressure on an unprepared team, but 99,9% of the time your right and he is an awful lead.

-In the early game, the enemy team is most healthy and prepared to take it on. It's also the point in the game where over-predicting bears the greatest risk for mence itself.

like above maybe you can catch an opponent of guard, but thats unlikely.

-At any point in the game, there is no switch-in Salamence can make with safety (almost everything can kill him or maim him if he screws up the prediction).

he can switch on many defensive pokemon lacking se moves or choiced eq/resisted attacks thanks to intimidate and a great typing.
that dont means you can switch him in on any poke, but as a skilled player it isnt too hard creating a situation where he can switch in without getting screwed.

-At any point in the game, the opponent might have fodder that will ruin his chance to achieve something important within his time frame.

dd mence maybe just can setup on your death fodder if it lacks a move to finish mence.

-The points in which he can switch in for a revenge kill, he might be switching into something that it itself is already fodder that can stop him from setting up or let him kill anything of importance.

but why would you switch mence in if you get no payoff?

-If he waits too long to come in, he could find himself completely useless on the wrong end of the opponent's late game Empoleon, Flygon, Metagross or Lucario sweep.

but that applys to every pokemon not just mence and its more the players fault not mences.

That's not to say he can't come in somewhere and cause a mess, but getting the timing right for mence to be effective is no easy feat.

but its absolutly possible in almost every match even without centering the team arround mence.

i dont completly disagree with you, but its not that hard to switch in mence, especially if your opponent dont knows about it and even if he does you may can use this to your favor, if your opponent is too scared about mence.

 

[shrang]

What? No it doesn't... Slap a Scarf on TTar, and you OHKO with Stone-Edge before Ho-oh can do ANYTHING. And even with a Burn TTar is still OHKOing. Did you even do any calculations?

If you've played Ubers, Ho-oh normally Substitutes and Roost before attacking, so Stone Edge isn't going to OHKO for obvious reasons. After one Sub, and a Roost, you're looking at half your Stone Edge PP gone, already.

This is exactly what I've been trying to say. The number of counters for a certain pokemon has very little to do with its tiering. If you want to ignore Ho-Oh, I'll use "Tyranitar vs. Giratina-O" (which Shrang himself mentioned) and yet Giratina-O is still Uber.

I'm kind of interested in this, because all the pro-Ubers people are arguing how Salamence has very few viable counters. Over to the Giratina-O speel, would you propose that Gengar is Uber even though Tyranitar gives it problems??

Hey guess what? Both of you missed the part where I flat out said that I wasn't comparing Mence to Ho-oh. I am, and always have been showing you how stupid the residual damage argument is.

But you are. You're using the Ho-oh argument to show that the residual damage argument on Mence is ridiculous. However, you can't do that, because you can't compare Mence and Ho-oh, and for you to show that argument, you MUST compare the two. No-one is using residual damage as a primary argument, but it is one of the biggest problems Mence has in the metagame, and one of the biggest reasons (But not the only one) that he isn't Uber.

 

[Shizzle]

Edit: I'd also like to expand that finding the proper time to bring out to use him effectively is no easy feat.

-Salamence has no business in the lead game (with no SR, taunt, spin, or priority) Obviously

-In the early game, the enemy team is most healthy and prepared to take it on. It's also the point in the game where over-predicting bears the greatest risk for mence itself.
He can break teams rather well, and people are often forced to sacrifice pokemon, only the really bulky walls can take a hit, and either killed the next turn, so basically ruined. Sweepers cant take any hit really. Not to mention if you do go for a Mixed wall, uncertain on his set, he could still OHKO you, or deal huge damage, or even DD. Yes as a general thing he won't be good early game, but his good typing/flying means he can switch in, and dish out huge damage, while OHKOing lots of things, although this quality is shared by lots of OU Wall Breakers.

-At any point in the game, there is no switch-in Salamence can make with safety (almost everything can kill him or maim him if he screws up the prediction).
I disagree. There are little match ups where something can switch into something without fear/prediction. Unfortunately Salamence does not exactly meet this at all. His typing means he is immune/resists 5 types [including the popular Ground/Water], all of which are extremely common. He can switch into walls NE attacks decently, his defences are actually decent when compared to other mixed sweepers, with 95 / 80 / 80, whereas just for some comparison, Infernape's defences are 76 / 71 / 71, while having significantly worse typing, meaning that he himself has many problems when switching in.

-At any point in the game, the opponent might have fodder that will ruin his chance to achieve something important within his time frame.
Might have fodder? Isn't this just theorymoning? I don't really feel this is a strong argument at all, what if all your pokemon are somewhat healthy, you are losing a pokemon right there.

-The points in which he can switch in for a revenge kill, he might be switching into something that it itself is already fodder that can stop him from setting up or let him kill anything of importance.

-If he waits too long to come in, he could find himself completely useless on the wrong end of the opponent's late game Empoleon, Flygon, Metagross or Lucario sweep.
Lets not suddenly assume all these pokemon have set up, thats not exactly the best way to compare anything. Salamence requires no set up, these pokemon should be looked at in the same way..Empoleon and Metagross get OHKOd by EQ/Fire Blast respectively, LO Adamant 252 Atk Metagross does less than 40% with BP, and Lucario Adamant 252 Atk LO does less than 50% with extremespeed. Assuming they have set up is....

That's not to say he can't come in somewhere and cause a mess, but getting the timing right for mence to be effective is no easy feat.
Disagree entirely, I don't know where the information for move usage is, but I am quite sure Ground moves are one of the most popular, considering that he is immune to this, as well as resisting Water, and the somewhat used Grass [GK], he can find himself switching on a fair amount of occasions, but certainly not against other sweepers.

 

[TheValkyries]

No one ever said it was the primary argument. There have been so many arguments (on both sides) I doubt any one is singularly important. I don't know why you act as if that is the only relevant point that's been brought up.

Mence has a tighter time frame, and it is easy enough for him to miss accomplishing anything of real importance within that frame. You say "Gaping Hole" but Salamence could easy find itself dying to accomplish nothing but scratching some dead skin off the enemy team, or not even that-- depending on how it plays out and how the opponent chooses to deal with mence (not only with prediction, but by evaluating the value of his own teammates).

All of this has been repeated so many times though there's little to know value in saying it again.

The residual damage argument has been the most lasting and consistent argument made for tiering him in OU. Cresselia has also been offered, but who are we kidding with that? Quite frankly, I only see you making the (better) argument that Mence may be unable to do the job he wanted, for whatever reason.

As to that argument, it's undeniable Mence cripples everything sent in on him. No matter what the set is. +1 Outrage does 70% to Bulky Waters. Infernape loves the shit out of that. All steels not named Bronzong don't like taking a Draco Meteor + EQ/Fire Blast (For Skarm as a -2 Fire Blast will kill even after lefties). Most everything loves seeing a steel go down. Bulky Waters and Steels are the single current defensive core outside of stall teams, and anything else dies to Mence regardless. When things like that go down a myriad of things are given the capabilities of sweeping with little to no hindrance.

That's not to say he can't come in somewhere and cause a mess, but getting the timing right for Mence to be effective is no easy feat.

Aye, at times it may be difficult. But that sounds more like an issue on the personal level, rather then a testament to Mence's perceived frailties.

If you've played Ubers, Ho-oh normally Substitutes and Roost before attacking, so Stone Edge isn't going to OHKO for obvious reasons. After one Sub, and a Roost, you're looking at half your Stone Edge PP gone, already.

Yeah, half of the PP gone and a dead Ho-oh. I fail to see the point.

I'm kind of interested in this, because all the pro-Ubers people are arguing how Salamence has very few viable counters. Over to the Giratina-O speel, would you propose that Gengar is Uber even though Tyranitar gives it problems??

You're missing the point, I'm afraid. Just because it has counters doesn't mean it's not broken.

But you are. You're using the Ho-oh argument to show that the residual damage argument on Mence is ridiculous. However, you can't do that, because you can't compare Mence and Ho-oh, and for you to show that argument, you MUST compare the two. No-one is using residual damage as a primary argument, but it is one of the biggest problems Mence has in the metagame, and one of the biggest reasons (But not the only one) that he isn't Uber.

Actually no. The only things they have in common are the entry hazard damage. Outside of that I've tried not to go into without other people prompting me... such as yourself. Personally I thought the argument spoke for itself. Both Mence and Ho-oh are put on a tight time frame as they enter the field. Outside of that, you're right, they're worlds apart. But I'm not arguing outside of the fact that they both are put at a disadvantage upon entering the field. I only argue that it's what they are able to do on the field in their shortened time frame that defines their tiering, not the difficulty they have entering it.

 

[OU_Name]

Before anyone whines about me comparing Ho-oh to Sally again, I'm just going to say this is related to a completely different matter of "Is the number of a pokemon's counters related to it's tiering?" that happens to involve Ho-oh.

If you've played Ubers, Ho-oh normally Substitutes and Roost before attacking, so Stone Edge isn't going to OHKO for obvious reasons. After one Sub, and a Roost, you're looking at half your Stone Edge PP gone, already.

I honestly don't see any scenario where Ho-oh doesn't end up being KO'd. Even if you switch into a Ho-oh that sets up a Sub, after you take it out with SE no matter what Ho-Oh does next it's going to go down.

As soon as Ho-oh stops to use Roost instead of Sub, it's getting OHKO'd by Stone Edge. I'm looking at the Physical Attacker Ho-oh set and sees that sets with Sub don't have EQ, so that's out of the option. Which leaves Brave Bird and Sacred Fire left, which do less than about 33% of TTar's max HP and can't OHKO TTar, and even Sacred Fire's burn can't stop Stone Edge from OHKO'ing it.

Actually, the best that it could do is use Sub 4 times to kill itself and make Stone Edge run out PP. Or hope that SE misses (lol relying on luck to beat TTar)

Over to the Giratina-O speel, would you propose that Gengar is Uber even though Tyranitar gives it problems??

If most of the other factors (typing, stats, movepool, ability, etc.) make it such, then yes. But obviously that isn't the case for Gengar. What I'm basically saying that number of counters shouldn't be the most important factor for deciding a pokemon's tiering. I guess it's unfair of me to say that it has very little importance or that it's the least importance factor in tiering, but I think that some of the other factors have greater importance.

But you are. You're using the Ho-oh argument to show that the residual damage argument on Mence is ridiculous. However, you can't do that, because you can't compare Mence and Ho-oh, and for you to show that argument, you MUST compare the two. No-one is using residual damage as a primary argument, but it is one of the biggest problems Mence has in the metagame, and one of the biggest reasons (But not the only one) that he isn't Uber.

You say that you have a problem with Mence being compared to Ho-oh because they have very different attributes and with very different strategies for using them.

But then why are you and others perfectly fine when Mence and Infernape have been compared all thread, when Mence and Infernape are also two pokemon with very different attributes and very different strategies for using them as well?

edit: In case my posts weren't clear enough, I'm neutral and not trying to argue for either side. I'm just trying to point out what I disagree with, for arguments from both sides.

 

[shrang]

But then why are you and others perfectly fine when Mence and Infernape have been compared all thread, when Mence and Infernape are also two pokemon with very different attributes and very different strategies for using them as well?

When comparing Mence and Ape, we've been comparing them when looking at the big picture (ie Does it break walls, does it sweep, yadda-yadda). However, when the Ho-oh vs Mence argument started, only one thing was being looked at, and that was their susceptibility to residual damage. I don't mind if you start arguing over the big picture for Ho-oh vs Mence, but I'm quite sure that would be a pointless exercise.

I honestly don't see any scenario where Ho-oh doesn't end up being KO'd. Even if you switch into a Ho-oh that sets up a Sub, after you take it out with SE no matter what Ho-Oh does next it's going to go down.

As soon as Ho-oh stops to use Roost instead of Sub, it's getting OHKO'd by Stone Edge. I'm looking at the Physical Attacker Ho-oh set and sees that sets with Sub don't have EQ, so that's out of the option. Which leaves Brave Bird and Sacred Fire left, which do less than about 33% of TTar's max HP and can't OHKO TTar, and even Sacred Fire's burn can't save Stone Edge from OHKO'ing it.

Actually, the best that it could do is use Sub 4 times to kill itself and make Stone Edge run out PP. Or hope that SE misses (lol relying on luck to beat TTar)

The chances that Stone Edge misses once in 4 attacks is very likely (About 60% of the time). Now, if we look at Sand Veil and Garchomp, 20% was enough to convince people that it was Uber (Yes, I know other factors were involved, but the fact that you automatically have a 20% chance of failing really put people off).

EDIT:

I only argue that it's what they are able to do on the field in their shortened time frame that defines their tiering, not the difficulty they have entering it.

Ho-oh doesn't have a shortened time frame most of the time. Mence does.

Yeah, half of the PP gone and a dead Ho-oh. I fail to see the point.

More like half your PP gone and a Ho-oh that is alive and well, actually.

 

[OU_Name]

Claiming to be neutral doesn't make your argument any better or more relevant.

It's meant so that people like Zelrio can hopefully stop trolling.

edit:

The chances that Stone Edge misses once in 4 attacks is very likely (About 60% of the time). Now, if we look at Sand Veil and Garchomp, 20% was enough to convince people that it was Uber (Yes, I know other factors were involved, but the fact that you automatically have a 20% chance of failing really put people off).

20% chance of missing your attack doesn't seem to stop Stone Edge from being a very common move on many different pokemon and their sets. And with the impact from all those other factors, Sand Veil just seems like a drop in the bucket if you ask me.

More like half your PP gone and a Ho-oh that is alive and well, actually.

Are you assuming a missed Stone Edge? Because a SE that hits IS a OHKO. No, seriously run some calcs and you'll see it's true.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Answer these together

bold = fat shizzle

he could put early pressure on an unprepared team, but 99,9% of the time your right and he is an awful lead.

Obviously

Well good you agree so far

like above maybe you can catch an opponent of guard, but thats unlikely.

He can break teams rather well, and people are often forced to sacrifice pokemon, only the really bulky walls can take a hit, and either killed the next turn, so basically ruined. Sweepers cant take any hit really. Not to mention if you do go for a Mixed wall, uncertain on his set, he could still OHKO you, or deal huge damage, or even DD. Yes as a general thing he won't be good early game, but his good typing/flying means he can switch in, and dish out huge damage, while OHKOing lots of things, although this quality is shared by lots of OU Wall Breakers.

I actually happen to think Early game happens to be the best opportunity to use Salamence (definitely this is true for mixmence) because of his flexible wall breaking abilities. Despite this, I merely did have to point out it is the period when the opponent has the most options and the most unknown options to deal with mence. I still think the earlier the better with mence, but that's just my opinion.

he can switch on many defensive pokemon lacking se moves or choiced eq/resisted attacks thanks to intimidate and a great typing.
that dont means you can switch him in on any poke, but as a skilled player it isnt too hard creating a situation where he can switch in without getting screwed.

I disagree. There are little match ups where something can switch into something without fear/prediction. Unfortunately Salamence does not exactly meet this at all. His typing means he is immune/resists 5 types [including the popular Ground/Water], all of which are extremely common. He can switch into walls NE attacks decently, his defences are actually decent when compared to other mixed sweepers, with 95 / 80 / 80, whereas just for some comparison, Infernape's defences are 76 / 71 / 71, while having significantly worse typing, meaning that he himself has many problems when switching in.

dd mence maybe just can setup on your death fodder if it lacks a move to finish mence.

Ok, time to address these three points together. First, keep in mind I'm not saying you cannot predict your way into switching into a resisted attack, however, there is no pokemon with no means of hurting mence, whether that be with either status or attacking moves. I said "without danger" to it, not without dying. Let's look at a list of OU pokemon:

Aerodactyl Stone Edge
Azelf Psychic, Explosion
Blissey Thunder Wave, Toxic, Ice beam
Breloom Spore, Stone Edge, heck, even Focus Punch
Bronzong Gyro Ball, Explosion
Celebi Thunder Wave
Dragonite lol
Dusknoir Ice Punch
Electivire Ice Punch, Thunderbolt
Empoleon Ice Beam, if it sets up to sweep Surf/H-Pump will smash through mence
Flygon lol
Forretress Explosion, lol
Gengar Shadow Ball
Gliscor Ice Fang, Stone Edge
Gyarados Ice Fang, Stone Edge, Bounce
Heatran Dragon Pulse, HP Ice, Explosion, even Fire Blast is impressive
Heracross Stone Edge
Hippowdon Roar, Stone Edge, Ice Fang
Infernape HP Ice, Stone Edge, STAB attacks still hurt
Jirachi Ice Punch, Iron Head, Psychic, Thunder Wave . . .
Jolteon STAB thunderbolt hits fine, otherwise HP Ice
Kingdra lol
Lucario Extreme Speed, Swords Dance (to x-speed), Ice Punch, Mence cannot set up on this.
Machamp Stone Edge, Ice Punch, heck even Dynamic Punch
Magnezone STAB thunderbolt, HP Ice, Explosion
Mamoswine lol
Metagross Meteor Mash, Explosion, Ice Punch
Ninjask it can out-setup you. Well, ok not really but this thing is pretty nOOb regardless
Roserade Mostly a lead so not really applicable imo . . . Sleep Powder/HP Ice still possible
Rotom-A WoW, STAB electric, STAB ghost, thunderwave
Salamence lol
Scizor Bullet Punch anyone?
SkarmoryWhirlwind, Brave Bird
Smeargle sets up alongside you, can Explosion/Destiny Bond
Snorlax stab normal works fine
Starmie Ice Beam
Suicune Ice Beam, Roar
Swampert Ice Beam, Roar
Tentacruel Ice Beam, Sludge Bomb
Togekiss Thunderwave, STAB Flying
Tyranitar lol
Umbreon Kinda sucks to be totally honest . . . why is this OU?
Vaporeon Ice Beam, Toxic, Roar
Weavile lol
Zapdos STAB T-bolt hits hard, HP Ice

What am I getting at? The point is that very few pokemon in OU have NO way of getting at mence. Unlike something like Vaporeon or Skarmory that has a host of opportunities to switch in and setup, Salamence cannot switch into any pokemon in OU without at least the risk of running into a move that can seriously hurt or maim it.

There are almost no pokemon in OU mence can just switch in and recklessly start DD'ing up on.

This means almost any fodder is good fodder against mence, because if you choose to leave that forretress in on mence, he cannot just dd up against it-- he has to answer that possible explosion and f-blast first (or die to explosion). If you choose to leave that 20% poisoned suicune in on Mence, he has to kill it off if he doesn't want to be beam'd to death.

I will admit there are a few questionable ones in here (lol umbreon), but frankly most of them are kinda . . . well, crappy overall and I would be careful how I use them anyway.

Locked choice attacks are good of course, but then mence is far from the only pokemon who can take advantage of those relatively rare openings.

I would also respond to shizzle that mence takes a significant amount of damage from even resisted attacks from OU pokemon, especially when considering SR and potential STAB on said water, fighting and fire moves. If you are using Naive, you are in even bigger trouble.

but why would you switch mence in if you get no payoff?

The point is that finding an opportunity to make a payoff is not so simple. It's definitely doable, but it's not a walk in the park either if you want to find just the right timing.


Responding to "-If he waits too long to come in, he could find himself completely useless on the wrong end of the opponent's late game Empoleon, Flygon, Metagross or Lucario sweep." You guys wrote:

but that applys to every pokemon not just mence and its more the players fault not mences.

Lets not suddenly assume all these pokemon have set up, thats not exactly the best way to compare anything. Salamence requires no set up, these pokemon should be looked at in the same way..Empoleon and Metagross get OHKOd by EQ/Fire Blast respectively, LO Adamant 252 Atk Metagross does less than 40% with BP, and Lucario Adamant 252 Atk LO does less than 50% with extremespeed. Assuming they have set up is....

But you guys are missing the point and taking it out of context. The context is that you are looking for an opportunity to bring mence in. This means that mence's teammates are currently out, not mence.

You know very well that the pokemon I mentioned are all very successful at finding opportunities to setup late game. Unlike mence, they are successful setup sweepers not because of coverage, but because there are enemies they wall outright well enough to setup on easily late game.

If that were not the case, those setup strategies would not be so popular. Heck, Flygon doesn't even need a turn for setup-- he just needs his teammates to weaken everything he can't OHKO (and mence can be OHKO'd so it's no insurance there).

Point is that having a mence in the back has no relevance to the Metagross coming in after a death and Agility'ing up on your TTar. If Mence waits too long to find an opportunity to start its own offense, the other side could start one that makes mence meaningless.

Yes this is an issue pertenant to just about the majority of pokemon, but it is still another timing issue (simply one more timing issue amongst the others listed) that mence faces, and I was simply bringing up Mence's issue with timing.


Again, Mence has to be careful of its timing because it is SR weak and does have fewer opportunities to try and make good on its team slot.

Uhg, that took a lot of time and effort so I'd appreciate it if you guys appreciate this response a little. I don't mean to be critical Shizzle, but it's not easy to reformat to post to respond to posts bolded inside the previous quote. I try to avoid responding in that manner as courtesy to the other party.

 

[TheValkyries]

Ho-oh doesn't have a shortened time frame most of the time. Mence does.

Simply saying a statement doesn't make it true. If Ho-oh doesn't Roost off the damage fast, it will go down.

More like half your PP gone and a Ho-oh that is alive and well, actually.

I really am interested to know how you're coming up with that at all...

Okay. So Ho-oh switches in, and the first thing it does is Sub up as I switch to ScarfTar. That Ho-oh is no at 25%. TTar Stone-Edges, breaking the sub as Ho-oh Roosts. TTar Stone Edges and KO's Ho-oh. That's 2 Stone Edges.

Say instead the second one missed and Ho-oh hits with Sacred Fire, scoring a Burn. ScarfTar still outspeeds and still does more than enough to KO a 75% Ho-oh.

Say the first two miss (4% chance of happening, but you never know), and Ho-oh is 75% behind a sub. ScarfTar breaks the Sub with the 3rd Stone-Edge as Ho-oh Sacred Fires causing a burn. ScarfTar still outspeeds and KOs with Stone Edge.

Say ScarfTar misses 3 times in a row (.8% chance of happening), leaving Ho-oh behind a Sub, at 75%, with a burned TTar. TTar can still take a second Sacred Fire, and then KO the Ho-oh next turn.

 

[shrang]

Okay. So Ho-oh switches in, and the first thing it does is Sub up as I switch to ScarfTar. That Ho-oh is no at 25%. TTar Stone-Edges, breaking the sub as Ho-oh Roosts. TTar Stone Edges and KO's Ho-oh. That's 2 Stone Edges.

That's 4 Stone Edges due to Pressure. The second one is quite likely to miss (36%).

 

[Shizzle]

@ChouToshio, that list you posted doesn't have much value, yes lots of pokemon have moves that can OHKO or cripple Salamence severely, but when Salamence comes into their other moves, their more used STAB/spammable move are NE to Salamence.

I am not going to go into each individual pokemon, but if you go into any walls NE attack, you are in, and can usually [if you can't then you shouldn't of switched mence in] OHKO, the other pokemon doesn't have time to use that move. Don't start saying but the opponent could predict that, because thats like saying that every turn you use Ice Beam instead of Surf just incase Salamence switches in.

Yes there is risk, but as I said before, the difficulty of getting Salamence in, is much less than other highly offensive wall breakers.

But you guys are missing the point and taking it out of context. The context is that you are looking for an opportunity to bring mence in. This means that mence's teammates are currently out, not mence.

I did not address Flygon, a pokemon with a scarf/band is a different issue, and in this case it doesn't matter if its Flygon/Jirachi or anything really, I mean you are now stuck on a move, and your opponent has a free switch.

I would also respond to shizzle that mence takes a significant amount of damage from even resisted attacks from OU pokemon, especially when considering SR and potential STAB on said water, fighting and fire moves. If you are using Naive, you are in even bigger trouble.

But is this damage enough? Salamence at 40% HP is still more than enough to destroy teams mid-late game.

But you guys are missing the point and taking it out of context. The context is that you are looking for an opportunity to bring mence in. This means that mence's teammates are currently out, not mence.

You know very well that the pokemon I mentioned are all very successful at finding opportunities to setup late game. Unlike mence, they are successful setup sweepers not because of coverage, but because there are enemies they wall outright well enough to setup on easily late game.

This is most certainly true, but its not really relevant, what doesn't get owned by them late game? Barely anything except from the bulkiest of STAB resisting pokemon, of course Salamence will lose to them after a set up. Also this question is more about a team of pokemon, not really relevant directly to Salamence.

Uhg, that took a lot of time and effort so I'd appreciate it if you guys appreciate this response a little. I don't mean to be critical Shizzle, but it's not easy to reformat to post to respond to posts bolded inside the previous quote. I try to avoid responding in that manner as courtesy to the other party.

That's fine, its what you write that matters, and this topic is extremely opinionitive, so its kind of expected to be a little tense.

 

[OU_Name]

And shrang, all of this regarding Ho-oh and TTar so far is assuming that Stealth Rock doesn't cut Ho-Oh's HP in half.

Though I haven't played against Ho-oh before, I think it's most likely that Ho-oh will try to Roost off the SR damage on the switch instead using Sub to put itself at 25%.

 

[shrang]

Yes, I made a mistake here, since I was under the impression that Ho-oh can Sub twice, but she can't since Sandstorm hits before Leftovers (I am assuming Leftovers here, because Ho-oh doesn't need a Life Orb in OU). I apologise for the confusion here, but it doesn't really make a difference. Tyranitar is only a check to Ho-oh because he can't switch into EQ. If you want to put it that way, bulky Waters and Steels are all checks to Mence, and such, you have a much bigger list of checks than you have against Ho-oh, therefore, easier to deal with.

 

[OU_Name]

Yes, Tyranitar can't switch into EQ. There is also most likely a Mence attack that bulky waters and Steels can't switch into either that would cause it to get 1-2HKO'd (steels can't switch into Fire Blast for example). And all of this is heavily dependent on prediction, but it's a completely different subject from this. But there's still one important difference here.

Scarftar is faster than Ho-oh. Bulky Waters and Steels aren't faster than Mence.

edit: also going to remind people that this is not a comparison of Mence and Ho-oh, but their counters/checks.

 

[Bilaterus]

OK, yes Scarf-Tar can beat Ho-Oh. If it doesn't come in on EQ. By locking itself into Stone Edge. Luke says hi.

There are few other Pokemon that can do so without being choiced and thus being a liability. Everybody would be forced to use Scarf-Tar, etc, which wouldn't even work if Ho-Oh used EQ on the switch. THAT is overcentralisation.

In Mence's case, revenge killing it seems to be quite difficult without putting yourself at a disadvantage, except that Draco Meteor leaves it at -2 and Outrage locks it in. However, the fact that people aren't needing to resort to the more reliable "counters" to Mence, and use checking methods instead indicate that it isn't overpowered. Yes, it is on a different level, but that doesn't mean it is Uber.

 

[Deaga]

I honestly think everyone comparing Salamence with Ho-oh should be banned because that's fucking nonsense and everyone knows it.

 

[Chou Toshio]

@Shizzle-- My only point with the list follows:

-There are no pokemon Salamence itself walls (can switch into without serious risk)
-Any pokemon in OU can be used as threatening fodder to mence

If every pokemon can maim/disable mence = Mence has no switch ins without serious risk

Just like mence can carry an attack that hurts every switch in, just about every pokemon has an attack that mence does not want to switch into.

Which restricts his switch in abilities and complicates his timing quite a bit. If you read the points I was responding too, the list is a direct response. Salamence cannot switch in with ease (without serious risk), and there is ALWAYS danger in hitting that "DD" button (unless on a choiced earthquake/pursuit, but you know what I mean).

This is a weakness shared by all powerful fast offensive pokemon-- including the likes of Infernape, Gengar and Lucario. However, the difficulties resulting from that weakness are compounded for mence due to its SR weakness which restricts his movement in and off the battle field.

 

[PK Gaming]

I honestly think everyone comparing Salamence with Ho-oh should be banned because that's fucking nonsense and everyone knows it.

My point exactly. There simply isn't no point on going about Ho-oh because they are incomparable. (I guess my posts keep being deleted because I have nothing to contribute)

Anywho, I want to respond to Flareblitz.

If I were to ask someone "Why do you think Ho-Oh is Uber?" they would probably say something like "The reason Ho-Oh is Uber is because, regardless of its greater vulnerability to passive damage compared to Salamence, it can hit things so hard and it has so few safe switchins that it is virtually guaranteed a kill every time it comes". And if you look at this argument, you can replace "Ho-Oh" with "Salamence" and end up with virtually the same thing the pro-Uber people have been saying in this thread. And don't bring up defenses; not only do defenses not matter when you take 25% more on the switch-in, but Salamence also has Intimidate and significantly better typing, which makes it WAY better on the defense than Ho-Oh despite its statistically inferior stats (see: Moltres v Arcanine).

We are talking legendary stats here! Those 106/90/154 defenses are insane.
It's Special defense in particular is simply to great for this metagame. I can't think of special attacker who can outright kill Ho-oH in one shot due to that massive special walling capabilities. Random HP Rock's won't cut it either.

Ho-oH doesn't even have any outright counters. Scarf Tar at best is a check (and not even a good one at that) because Earthquake OHKO's and Sacred Fire has a 50% burn rate. Not to mention that defensive sets can be stalled out of their Stone Edge's. It's no slouch offensively either because that 130 Attack is nothing to laugh at either. It's hard to even wall in the Uber tier due to it's sheerp power.

Sure it takes more damage from Stealth rocks, but I would readily run 2 dedicated spinners and a taunt lead just to get those rocks off the field.

In short:
-Salamence doesn't have the bulk
-Salamence doesn't have that sheer destructive power (it's no slouch, but Sacred Fire coming off base 130 > Outrage / Draco Meteor
-Has checks
-Salamence needs to run speed to be put to good use. Ho-Oh is perfectly happy HP over speed because it really doesn't need it.

That is why I think that to are hardly comparable. The shared SR weakness is the only thing that they have in common.



Edit: Does this mean that I'm pro OU for Salamence? Heck no. I'm just saying that Ho-Oh is flat-out broken in OU as opposed to Mence who is on the fence.

 

[KurashiDragon]

@ PK gaming

Salamence is actually more of a threat offensively than ho-oh is. Salamence has 5 more base atk than ho-oh, they have the same Sp. atk, and Salamence has 10 more base spd. Combine that with better typing, a great stab on both sides of the spectrum and well there's the proof. If you ask me btw salamence has slightly more bulk than ho-oh in general. No account to Ho-oh's extremely massive sp. def but Physically salamence has intimidate and a 2x weakness to stealth rock instead of 4x. That's not to say Ho-oh doesn't have it's own niches I just didn't like how you wrote your post.