The First Smogon Council - Salamence

[kokoloko]

In this particular battle, there was no way from start to finish for mence to have been used effectively no matter how the other side used it. This is not the only battle where mence will find itself in that very situation (when the opponent is skilled and used to seeing mence).

I'm pretty sure if he hadn't been a complete moron and stayed in for like 4 turns trying to break through Skarm with a frickin' Metagross, and had instead switched in Salamence as soon as Skarm came out, he would've posed a much, much larger threat.

That battle did prove one thing though... Salamence sucks in the hands of bad players. But we already knew that.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I'm pretty sure if he hadn't been a complete moron and stayed in for like 4 turns trying to break through Skarm with a frickin' Metagross, and had instead switched in Salamence as soon as Skarm came out, he would've posed a much, much larger threat.

That battle did prove one thing though... Salamence sucks in the hands of bad players. But we already knew that.

Would have been the same thing, except I'd have 1 layer of spikes instead of 2. boo-hoo.

Garchomp was effective in ANYBODY'S hands at ANY point in battle. I could say similar for specs Latias/Latios.

I think we'd all be willing to agree that Salamence needs a skilled player, needs to be proper timing for entry into battle and team built for it in order to be effective-- but then, that makes it no different from any other powerful offensive threat in the game.

Even if you do build a team to set up for mence in some way, as a sweeper, it will never provide you with results as consistent and reliable as other late game sweepers with more bulk and SR resistance, which includes Flygon frankly. I'd much rather build to set up a Flygon or Empoleon sweep, as I can rely on them to do the late game sweep more.

As a wall breaker, it'll never do much more than what I showed here-- have the chance to take out one enemy that the other side lets it take down. Sure you could try to use that opening to sweep with something else, but taking advantage of that opening isn't such a simple matter in team building, and again the opponent has quite a bit of freedom in how he deals with mixmence if he's willing to sacrifice.

 

[Baldafor]

Garchomp was effective in ANYBODY'S hands at ANY point in battle. I could say similar for specs Latias/Latios.

What about Specs Salamence? Are there really that many more counters or checks between 100 and 110 (Latias) that make the viability of Specs Salamence that much worse?

If the reason we banned Latias was because it had a ridiculously powerful Draco Meteor with Specs and Surf/HP Fire/etc. for coverage, Salamence should be similarly banned for the same exact set.

I don't think the speed tie at 100 base speed makes that much of a difference, especially considering that the primary counter used to battle Latias was ScarfTar, which was an extremely specialized set to "counter" (I think Specs Surf was a 2HKO) a single pokemon and check several others poorly.

 

[Aura Guardian]

What about Specs Salamence? Are there really that many more counters or checks between 100 and 110 (Latias) that make the viability of Specs Salamence that much worse?

If the reason we banned Latias was because it had a ridiculously powerful Draco Meteor with Specs and Surf/HP Fire/etc. for coverage, Salamence should be similarly banned for the same exact set.

I don't think the speed tie at 100 base speed makes that much of a difference, especially considering that the primary counter used to battle Latias was ScarfTar, which was an extremely specialized set to "counter" (I think Specs Surf was a 2HKO) a single pokemon and check several others poorly.

The keys to that are that Mence has: less speed and less Special Defense than Latias and a Stealth Rock weakness. The SpD is key, here, because Starmie (Scarfed checks almost all Mence) can force Mence out, etc. However, the damage done is about equal by DM (though Mence needs Hydro Pump instead of Surf to get the Water damage in).

I've been using a Scarfloom lead, Scarfape with HP Ice, CB Scizor with Return over Pursuit/Quick Attack, SpecsMence, ScarfGon (ThunderPunch instead of Stone Edge or Fire Blast), and Utility Claydol, and have found that most of Mence's teammates are about as powerful.

 

[TehYoshi]

The other problem with SpecsMence is that it lacks Trick to beat special walls (like Blissey) with.

 

[SJCrew]

And this is a log where I beat you regardless of Salamence. Salamence did not do shit on either side during this game. AND in the log you posted, I made some pretty dumb mistakes I would admit.

Hide

Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause
Esterk sent out Metagross (lvl 100 Metagross).
SJCrew sent out Angel of Death (lvl 100 Azelf).
Angel of Death used U-turn.
Metagross lost 26% of its health.
SJCrew switched in Kill Order (lvl 100 Magnezone).
Metagross used Meteor Mash.
It's not very effective...
Kill Order lost 17% of its health.
---
Kill Order used Thunderbolt.
Metagross lost 73% of its health.
Metagross used Earthquake.
It's super effective!
Kill Order lost 83% of its health.
SJCrew's Kill Order fainted.
---
SJCrew switched in Angel of Death (lvl 100 Azelf).
Metagross used Bullet Punch.
Angel of Death lost 38% of its health.
Angel of Death used U-turn.
Metagross lost 1% of its health.
Esterk's Metagross fainted.
SJCrew switched in Dracolord (lvl 100 Salamence ?).
---
Esterk switched in Salamence (lvl 100 Salamence ?).
Salamence's Intimidate cut Dracolord's attack!
Esterk switched in Heatran (lvl 100 Heatran ?).
SJCrew switched in Mistwalker (lvl 100 Suicune).
Mistwalker is exerting its pressure!
---
Heatran used Explosion.
Mistwalker lost 60% of its health.
Esterk's Heatran fainted.
Mistwalker used Surf.
But there was no target!
Mistwalker's leftovers restored its health a little!
Mistwalker restored 6% of its health.
---
Esterk switched in Breloom (lvl 100 Breloom ?).
SJCrew switched in Death Toll (lvl 100 Bronzong).
Breloom used Spore.
Death Toll fell asleep!
Breloom was badly poisoned!
---
SJCrew switched in Angel of Death (lvl 100 Azelf).
Breloom used Substitute.
Breloom lost 25% of its health.
Breloom made a substitute!
Breloom's Poison Heal restored health!
Breloom restored 13% of its health.
---
Breloom is tightening its focus!
Angel of Death used U-turn.
A critical hit!
The substitute took damage for Breloom!
Breloom's substitute faded!
SJCrew switched in Dracolord (lvl 100 Salamence ?).
Dracolord's Intimidate cut Breloom's attack!
Breloom used Focus Punch.
It's not very effective...
Dracolord lost 34% of its health.
Breloom's Poison Heal restored health!
Breloom restored 13% of its health.
---
Esterk switched in Swampert (lvl 100 Swampert ?).
Dracolord used Dragon Dance.
Dracolord's attack was raised.
Dracolord's speed was raised.
---
Dracolord used Outrage.
Dracolord went on a rampage!
Swampert lost 96% of its health.
Dracolord lost 10% of its health.
Swampert used Ice Beam.
It's super effective!
Dracolord lost 56% of its health.
SJCrew's Dracolord fainted.
Swampert's leftovers restored its health a little!
Swampert restored 6% of its health.
---
SJCrew switched in Angel of Death (lvl 100 Azelf).
Angel of Death used U-turn.
A critical hit!
Swampert lost 10% of its health.
Esterk's Swampert fainted.
SJCrew switched in Mistwalker (lvl 100 Suicune).
Mistwalker is exerting its pressure!
Mistwalker's leftovers restored its health a little!
Mistwalker restored 6% of its health.
---
Esterk switched in Breloom (lvl 100 Breloom ?).
Breloom used Seed Bomb.
It's super effective!
Mistwalker lost 52% of its health.
SJCrew's Mistwalker fainted.
Breloom's Poison Heal restored health!
---
SJCrew switched in El Blaze (lvl 100 Infernape ?).
Esterk switched in Salamence (lvl 100 Salamence ?).
Salamence's Intimidate cut El Blaze's attack!
El Blaze used Overheat.
It's not very effective...
Salamence lost 49% of its health.
El Blaze's special attack was harshly lowered.
El Blaze lost 10% of its health.
---
El Blaze used Stone Edge.
It's super effective!
Salamence lost 51% of its health.
Esterk's Salamence fainted.
El Blaze lost 10% of its health.
---
Esterk switched in Suicune (lvl 100 Suicune).
Suicune is exerting its pressure!
SJCrew switched in Angel of Death (lvl 100 Azelf).
Suicune used Surf.
Angel of Death lost 62% of its health.
SJCrew's Angel of Death fainted.
---
SJCrew switched in Death Toll (lvl 100 Bronzong).
Esterk switched in Breloom (lvl 100 Breloom ?).
SJCrew switched in El Blaze (lvl 100 Infernape ?).
Breloom's Poison Heal restored health!
---
El Blaze used Overheat.
It's super effective!
Breloom lost 100% of its health.
Esterk's Breloom fainted.
El Blaze's special attack was harshly lowered.
El Blaze lost 10% of its health.
---
Esterk switched in Suicune (lvl 100 Suicune).
Suicune is exerting its pressure!
SJCrew switched in Death Toll (lvl 100 Bronzong).
Suicune used Surf.
Death Toll lost 32% of its health.
---
Suicune used Surf.
Death Toll lost 33% of its health.
Death Toll is fast asleep!
---
Suicune used Surf.
Death Toll lost 32% of its health.
Death Toll is fast asleep!
---
Suicune used Surf.
Death Toll lost 2% of its health.
SJCrew's Death Toll fainted.
---
SJCrew switched in El Blaze (lvl 100 Infernape ?).
El Blaze used Close Combat.
Suicune lost 60% of its health.
El Blaze's defence was lowered.
El Blaze's special defence was lowered.
El Blaze lost 10% of its health.
Suicune used Surf.
It's super effective!
El Blaze lost 60% of its health.
SJCrew's El Blaze fainted.
Esterk wins!
SJCrew has left the room.
Esterk: gg

I'm sorry, but is the only reason you posted that log to say you beat me? I have a sample size of four (and many others in reserve) as opposed to your one and made points that illustrated that even DDMence's most prominent check was beaten handily by attacking right away (which I was perfectly capable of doing, but chose not to). And to top that off, MixMence slaughters your entire team.

Your log didn't "prove" that Salamence is easy to beat or as manageable as the rest of OU, it "proved" that neither of us used Salamence to its full potential and didn't make full use of its capabilities.

 

[Ice-eyes]

There really isn't that much of a reason to use SpecsMence rather than MixMence - is there anything Specs beats that Mix doesn't? Latias could pull Specs off well because it had absurd bulk and no SR weakness, allowing it repeated switch-ins to start breaking things. Mence doesn't have the same longevity.

 

[WeLuvYouMagcargo]

All of this arguing about "skill" really is useless. If a pokemon is OP only when in the hands of the most skilled players, it is still OP. Saying "well crappy people don't use mence that well" is pointless.

 

[Baldafor]

Mence doesn't have the same longevity.

One of the primary checks to Latias and Salamence is Scizor.

Scizor switches in after you kill something and Bullet Punches you. After Stealth Rocks and Life Orb recoil, Salamence is OHKO'd by that Bullet Punch. However, if you use Specs Salamence, that Bullet Punch will not be a OHKO. Latias is actually less physically bulky than Salamence (80/90 vs 95/80) and will take a larger hit from that Bullet Punch, or suffer from the Pursuit.

This is one of the cases where Salamence is actually better than Latias at the Specs set.

A Starmie is not able to revenge kill a Specs Salamence because it switches out. It is never locked into Outrage, as it doesn't even have it. It can force it out, but unlike the other sets, the residual damage doesn't kick in quite as much as you would like.

I would even say to pair it with a Rapid Spin user, or 2 even, but apparently we aren't taking skill or strategy into consideration when talking about Salamence. And we aren't allowed to change items or moves on this Salamence. It has to be a single set versus any combination of any 6 pokemon that can be anything (I think a team of Swampert/Cresselia/Suicune/ScarfRachi/TTar/Regirock sounds a bit ridiculous).

Why, if we can have any hypothetical pokemon against Salamence, can't we discuss Salamence's other sets and items?

 

[shrang]

Scizor wasn't exactly the best check to SpecsLatias, since he'd get 2HKO'd by Surf, which is probably always the first move Latias would lock herself into. Although, ScarfScizor kind of took care of that. You can say the same thing about Mence, but stuff like Hydro Pump and Fire Blast are less reliable.

This is one of the cases where Salamence is actually better than Latias at the Specs set.

A Starmie is not able to revenge kill a Specs Salamence because it switches out. It is never locked into Outrage, as it doesn't even have it. It can force it out, but unlike the other sets, the residual damage doesn't kick in quite as much as you would like.

This isn't really the best example to use. Starmie won't revenge SpecsMence because it would switch out, while Latias would just go "lolStarmie", take your Ice Beam which wouldn't come close to killing and DM you to death.

I would even say to pair it with a Rapid Spin user, or 2 even, but apparently we aren't taking skill or strategy into consideration when talking about Salamence. And we aren't allowed to change items or moves on this Salamence.

You are encouraged to take strategy and how you can support Salamence into account, but this nails what Salamence can't do: He can't sweep without substantial support. There goes the Offensive Characteristic already. Support is probably a bit harder to prove yes or no, but it is goddamn ambiguous Characterisitc anyway.

 

[Chou Toshio]

First off, Salamence cannot use Choice sets and spam moves like Specs Lati@s, because others have mentioned, it is SR weak and lacks special defensiveness.

To pull off choice sets, you need both:

a) many easy switch ins
b) Capacity to switch in multiple times (read: lack of SR weak, of course if your name is flygon, you're even better off), so if you screw up you got another shot.

Overall bulk means shit. It doesn't matter that Lati@s has less physical bulk than mence because lati@s isn't switching in on physical attackers (save maybe infernape). Salamence has a much harder time finding opportunities to switch in ON ENEMIES than lati@s.

Yes, lati@s was pursuit & U-Turn weak, but Specs Surf killed pursuit/U-turn users-- where as mence is not getting around SR by itself no matter what.

Your log didn't "prove" that Salamence is easy to beat or as manageable as the rest of OU, it "proved" that neither of us used Salamence to its full potential and didn't make full use of its capabilities.

All of this arguing about "skill" really is useless. If a pokemon is OP only when in the hands of the most skilled players, it is still OP. Saying "well crappy people don't use mence that well" is pointless.

lol Oh I see, so Salamence is broken-- when used to full capacity. You mean,

"Salamence is broken when it kills all my team!"

=

"Salamence is broken when it gets every prediction right and hits all my pokemon with just the right attack!"

=

"Pokemon A kills me when it predicts like a god and executes its strategy perfectly!"

. . . no offense, but that tells me NOTHING about mence being broken. If Scarf Heatran exploded on every Blissey Switch in, Earth Powered every Tyranitar switch in, and Fire Blasted (hitting each time) everything it should Fire Blast, Scarfran would be broken.

Let's not even get into U-Turn Mixnape, or Flygon for that matter.

If it takes a lot of skill, team building and/or psychic powers to bring out the pokemon's "full potential," I am sorry-- that thing is not broken no matter what potential you think it has.

 

[ginganinja]

The term "full potential" does not always mean that the pokemon in questian sweeps the team with ease. Using a pokemon it full potential (to my mind) is using it in a well utalised manner.

For example regarding Salamence I don't have to sweep a team to say that "I used Salamence to its fullest potential". I can use Salamence to put offensive pressure on my opponinet and weaken the opponients team down so that something else (Inferrnape) can sweep. The above example in my post does not immediatly showcase Salamecne being broken, the point, (in my mind) it that it can do its job so well in weakening the opponients team so well if played effectivally (IE not bad).

And I regards to your opponient playig Salamence babely in the video, you are correct in that I may have ovreacted. However I guess the point I wished to make was that we had a poor team. No SR on it now Rapid spin to cover for the fact that 3 of his pokemon were weak to Rapid Spin. He also tried to weaken Skarmory with Metagross and did he even have a Fire move on Mence?. Anyway the fact that he tried to set up on Skarmory was a bad move due to your own reasoning in the video. I would have done the exact same thing since Skamory had done its job and was useless.

Anyway its just my thoughts I guess

Have a Nice Day!

 

[DTrain5742]

I'm not a very experienced battler, so I won't comment on Salamences status of OU or Uber, but I would be sad to see him go.

In my opinion Game Freak should add another type to resisit Dragon. Ice seems like a good fit considering it has only one resistance and is also super effective against Dragons. If Salamence becomes Uber, Dragonite will probably rise to fill his place, considering he has many similar offensive options, though with worse stats. Dragonite also has lots of supporting options that Salamence doesn't have. It also has better defenses.

Basically, I feel like the Dragon type is just too overpowered having only two weaknesses and especially being resisted by only one type makes switching in very difficult.

 

[WeLuvYouMagcargo]

lol Oh I see, so Salamence is broken-- when used to full capacity. You mean,

"Salamence is broken when it kills all my team!"

=

"Salamence is broken when it gets every prediction right and hits all my pokemon with just the right attack!"

=

"Pokemon A kills me when it predicts like a god and executes its strategy perfectly!"

. . . no offense, but that tells me NOTHING about mence being broken. If Scarf Heatran exploded on every Blissey Switch in, Earth Powered every Tyranitar switch in, and Fire Blasted (hitting each time) everything it should Fire Blast, Scarfran would be broken.

Let's not even get into U-Turn Mixnape, or Flygon for that matter.

If it takes a lot of skill, team building and/or psychic powers to bring out the pokemon's "full potential," I am sorry-- that thing is not broken no matter what potential you think it has.

Your argument is flawed because it is easy to invert it. Let's say that instead of me (the mence user) having the burden of needing psychic powers to predict your switch in, the burden is on you (the defending trainer) to have psychic powers in order to determine what move my mence is going to make and to switch in an appropriate pokemon. In essence, in order to beat my pokemon you have to outpredict me, and as you have said psychic powers are hardly a usable measuring stick in determining whether or not a pokemon can be defeated. This, along with the ease that mence has switching in (because of intimidate, his ground immunity, and his many resistances) make mence broken. If you outpredict me, I lose some hp from my mence. If I outpredict you, you lose a mon or more if I am DD. This is what makes mence broken, his ability to switch in to a good deal of pokemon in the metagame and force you to play a guessing game stacked in the mence player's favor.

 

[SJCrew]

This is what makes mence broken, his ability to switch in to a good deal of pokemon in the metagame and force you to play a guessing game stacked in the mence player's favor.

Allow me to emphasize this point, if I may.

Nothing in OU is more dangerous than Salamence. The guessing game is always rigged in the Mence player's favor because the consequences of you guessing right as well as forcing Salamence out make nowhere as big an impact of guessing wrong and losing a compulsory one or two members of your team at the very least. There isn't a single Pokemon in OU that can force Salamence out and cause just as much havoc via setup or outright attacking, as the rest of them actually have a healthy slew of concrete checks/counters that can have it forced out the very next turn just as easily.

 

[Warped Worlds]

I'm sorry, but is the only reason you posted that log to say you beat me? I have a sample size of four (and many others in reserve) as opposed to your one and made points that illustrated that even DDMence's most prominent check was beaten handily by attacking right away (which I was perfectly capable of doing, but chose not to). And to top that off, MixMence slaughters your entire team.

Your log didn't "prove" that Salamence is easy to beat or as manageable as the rest of OU, it "proved" that neither of us used Salamence to its full potential and didn't make full use of its capabilities.

No, that is not the reason. The log is just there to prove your Mence could win for you, but also do jock shit. That Mence was just a 1 for 1 trade with my Swampert, and eye for an eye. Also, if you keep on saying "the blind Outrage argument" it will make you setup bait in a steel dominated Metagame. Going for the Dragon Dance is usually the better choice, since most of Mence's checks are steels.

Mix Mence has the potential to slaughter any team. It has no hard counter in OU, but people are able to check it reliably. And you are the one who has been stating "Mix Mence has no reliable counters, its broken."

By that logic, Mix Mence slaughters every team. Do not condradict yourself.

I check Mix Mence pretty reliably on my team I would think. If I recall correctly, Shrang posted some logs too.

 

[SJCrew]

No, that is not the reason. The log is just there to prove your Mence could win for you, but also do jock shit.

Same thing with Latias. If you predict wrong, Scarftar and Scizor were there to punish you, but that doesn't mean we should allow it to obliterate everything else and completely dominate the metagame.

And as I've said before, blind Outraging is not blind Outraging if you know you've had a good look at your opponent's team. I'm more of a reckless player, so naturally, I've stuffed up once or twice and had to pay for it, but really, most of the reason DDMence is hailed as the lesser of the two evils is that most people don't realize the merits of using his most powerful attack when the opportunity presents itself.

Also, for such a "Steel-dominated metagame" you'd be surprised at how many Pokemon would fail to take out Salamence even if it used Outrage right off the bat. Think CM Jirachi can switch in and take it out with one attack? Guess again.

 

[Warped Worlds]

Same thing with Latias. If you predict wrong, Scarftar and Scizor were there to punish you, but that doesn't mean we should allow it to obliterate everything else and completely dominate the metagame.

And as I've said before, blind Outraging is not blind Outraging if you know you've had a good look at your opponent's team. I'm more of a reckless player, so naturally, I've stuffed up once or twice and had to pay for it, but really, most of the reason DDMence is hailed as the lesser of the two evils is that most people don't realize the merits of using his most powerful attack when the opportunity presents itself.

Also, for such a "Steel-dominated metagame" you'd be surprised at how many Pokemon would fail to take out Salamence even if it used Outrage right off the bat. Think CM Jirachi can switch in and take it out with one attack? Guess again.

Well, Calm Mind Jirachi cannot take Mence out in one attack, but did you know Outrage from Naive DD Mence is a 3HKO - 4HKO on Timid Sub Calm Mind Rachi as it only does 31.9% - 37.9%?

On Bold Wish Rachi, you only muster 23.5% - 27.7% with a blind Outrage with Naive DD Mence, which is a 5HKO.

The blind outrage thing fails against Jirachi, since they have plenty of time to kill you with their 35.3% - 41.7% Flash Cannons. They can set up a Calm Mind, a Wish, or force you to switch because of the confusion... and force you to take another round of Stealth Rock damage.

 

[Baldafor]

The blind outrage thing fails against Jirachi, since they have plenty of time to kill you with their 35.3% - 41.7% Flash Cannons. They can set up a Calm Mind, a Wish, or force you to switch because of the confusion... and force you to take another round of Stealth Rock damage.

I think the point was, if it's a 3HKO, which it is the majority of the time, you still only get one hit in. That does not kill Salamence. And your Jirachi is dead. That's one of your core down, sounds like a fair trade to me. The recoil will likely, and if it doesn't, you better have something that can take that last hit or outspeed, or else you could lose another.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Your argument is flawed because it is easy to invert it. Let's say that instead of me (the mence user) having the burden of needing psychic powers to predict your switch in, the burden is on you (the defending trainer) to have psychic powers in order to determine what move my mence is going to make and to switch in an appropriate pokemon. In essence, in order to beat my pokemon you have to outpredict me, and as you have said psychic powers are hardly a usable measuring stick in determining whether or not a pokemon can be defeated. This, along with the ease that mence has switching in (because of intimidate, his ground immunity, and his many resistances) make mence broken. If you outpredict me, I lose some hp from my mence. If I outpredict you, you lose a mon or more if I am DD. This is what makes mence broken, his ability to switch in to a good deal of pokemon in the metagame and force you to play a guessing game stacked in the mence player's favor.

No, you're wrong because if I were to switch something into mence, I would be doing so with risk factored in. In short, I will make my move switching in pokemon A while having a back up plan B for killing mence and taking back momentum should you kill pokemon A.

In other words, my switch in is deteremined not only to maximize the chance to beat mence, but also to minimize the risk to my team overall. Mence cannot hedge its bets this way, so the defender is at a distinct advantage.

The term "full potential" does not always mean that the pokemon in questian sweeps the team with ease. Using a pokemon it full potential (to my mind) is using it in a well utalised manner.

For example regarding Salamence I don't have to sweep a team to say that "I used Salamence to its fullest potential". I can use Salamence to put offensive pressure on my opponinet and weaken the opponients team down so that something else (Inferrnape) can sweep. The above example in my post does not immediatly showcase Salamecne being broken, the point, (in my mind) it that it can do its job so well in weakening the opponients team so well if played effectivally (IE not bad).

Yet you still have not gotten past the point that you yourself put forward: That what you just described doesn't sound broken at all, and is in fact something many pokemon could do. Heck, Semi-Stall is precisely this, but using SR and Spikes instead to wear the enemy team down for Luke/Empoleon/Flygon to sweep at the end.

I've ran pure offensive using Mence to try to break way for a Flygon sweep. Then I tried the same concept but with SR/Spikes and Phazing instead of Mence. I can tell you that the latter was far more effective (once people actually caught onto mence's abilities. The full sweeper team was brilliant in a meta where no one ran max-speed base 100s).

The ultimate point being that yes, Salamence can weaken the enemy team-- but then so can a lot of things, including non-direct offensive strategies. The point of pokemon is to kill the enemy team-- which frankly, salamence does not make itself more obviously more effective than any number of other possible strategies in OU.

 

[shrang]

Nothing in OU is more dangerous than Salamence. The guessing game is always rigged in the Mence player's favor because the consequences of you guessing right as well as forcing Salamence out make nowhere as big an impact of guessing wrong and losing a compulsory one or two members of your team at the very least.

You are really overhyping him. Firstly, how is the guessing game rigged in Mence's favour?? The guessing is 50-50 at best for the Mence user, if something like Skarm is the Mence check, you have 25% chance of choosing the right move. I don't think we have to through this again, but Mence does not take out at least one or two Pokemon. He could take out one Pokemon (Not guaranteed) if he predicts correctly, and if you predicted wrong, you just wasted your Salamence.

 

[Warped Worlds]

I think the point was, if it's a 3HKO, which it is the majority of the time, you still only get one hit in. That does not kill Salamence. And your Jirachi is dead. That's one of your core down, sounds like a fair trade to me. The recoil will likely, and if it doesn't, you better have something that can take that last hit or outspeed, or else you could lose another.

You do realize Stealth Rock + 35.3% - 41.7%, Life Orb, and Sand is enough to bring Salamence down to his knees? Tyranitar is a fairly common partner for Jirachi if I recall correctly.

Anyways, people should not give the Spikes/Screens argument, since Spikes and Screens help out ALL OU sweepers beat their counters/checks.

 

[ginganinja]

Yet you still have not gotten past the point that you yourself put forward: That what you just described doesn't sound broken at all, and is in fact something many pokemon could do. Heck, Semi-Stall is precisely this, but using SR and Spikes instead to wear the enemy team down for Luke/Empoleon/Flygon to sweep at the end.

I've ran pure offensive using Mence to try to break way for a Flygon sweep. Then I tried the same concept but with SR/Spikes and Phazing instead of Mence. I can tell you that the latter was far more effective (once people actually caught onto mence's abilities. The full sweeper team was brilliant in a meta where no one ran max-speed base 100s).

The ultimate point being that yes, Salamence can weaken the enemy team-- but then so can a lot of things, including non-direct offensive strategies. The point of pokemon is to kill the enemy team-- which frankly, salamence does not make itself more obviously more effective than any number of other possible strategies in OU.

You are correct. Other things also weaken the opponients team down. But as I stated, Salamence can do it much easier and (argubly) better.Your very method for dealing with Mence reflects how dangerous it is. Something like Infernape cannot switch in anywhere near as much times as Salamence can. Sure, Salamence has a SR weakness on the other hand Salamence has an immunity to one of the most popular moves on the game. With Infernape, its not so threatning that I need to sac the pokemon thats in against it to get a free switch against it. According to you however, you can quite happily throw away Skamory (or whatever ese is in at the time) just to get a free switch. Salamences mere power and presence forces you to do this. (according to your video where you state how you deal with Salamence). I don't feel the need to sac something everytime I face off against a sweeper. For example if I was facing a Metagross (Agiligross set) I don't need to sacrifice my Tyranitar to it to get my Scarf Heatran in safely. I can go to Rotom and wall it while also burning to to render it useless. But you on the other hand will gladly sac whatever is facing Salamecne just for a free switch to have a chance at revenging it. If (for example) a Mence player switch's in his Salamence onto a Blissey to get rid of it since its walling his offensive Suicune. You can quite happily sac Blissey to hurt it, revenge and then Suicune can sweep. This is what I mean where I say that Mence is much better at weakening an opponients team. Sure, you kiled Mence, congrats however you still lost the match since it opened up the path for Suicune to sweep you.Another example, Say its Mence vs Skarmory and he has a Gyarados or Metagross wanting to sweep. you sac Skarm in case it DD's but it instead KO's you with Fire Blast. Infernape revenges (like you state) but then Gyarados DD's up (remember you don't switch). Infernape does 56.22% - 66.49% with Stone Edge (does not KO even with SR and even if you hit with Stone Edge.) Gyarados then kills you and sweeps you since Salamence took out the main counter.

Sweepers such as Lucario, Infernape, Metagross do not FORCE you to stay in to beat them. However you state that the best way of beating them is not to switch out but to sac whatevers in to beat Salamence, if he mispredicts you win but if he does the conservative option then you lose. While Salamence does not techniqually force you to stay in either as you state, if you switch out you risk getting outpredicted and he DD's up or we hits your counter hard with a DM.

Don't get me wrong,I am not saying that Saalmence will always let you win, hell it may not help yor team at all. The point is that Salamence forces you to into a less than faviourable position. Sure, you and your opponinet still have to predict each others moves correctly but really very few Pokemon force you into this position.

I can see you reading this and you say "Infernape can weaken teams too similar to what Salamence does!". In part this is correct since infernape can run a variety of sets both mixed, special and Physical. Both have bulky pokemon that can stand in their way depending on thee set. Both have revenge killers, however Infernape has far more reliable counters than Salamence. Infernape has no way of boosting its speed (to my knowledge) which means that scarfers are much more reliable to check Infernape. Indeed while I cannot speak for anyone else here I run a scarfer on all my teams just in case something like Gyarados sets up. Salamence is different. Your pool of revenge killers becomes much smaller since everything under base 100 Speed is being outspeed by a DD (if it carries DD) while in Infernapes case something with lower base speed can freely outspeed. INfernape can boost its SpA and Attack 2 stages which Salamence cannot do however Infernape cannot really set up on much since it is less bulky than Salamence.

You also state that enrty hazards do pretty similar things to what Salamence does. This is also true. Large amounts of entry hazards can put you in a similar situation that you can find with Salamence, ie "Do I switch and take more damage and leave my counter for X (X being a troublesome Pokemon) weakened or do I stay in, sacrifice something to get a free switch to get me back momentiun and prevent X from setting up. The difference between Salamence and layers of Entry hazards are many. Entry hazards take time and free (or otherwise advantigous) switchs to set up. You also (often) need to delgate a spin blocker to prevent all those hazards from being blown away. Salamence needs little support. It takes 1 turn to st up SR which hampers Salamence. The fact that Salamence is still in high usage because of this shows how effective it is. Salamence also needs 1 switch in to do damage. Salamence is far more destructive than entry hazards can ever be. For example to set up hazards maybe you get 1 turn for SR and and 2-3 for Spikes. if you give Salalmence 3 free (or advantigous) switchs then it is causing PAIN and doing much more damage that spikes and SR will do. A semi stall team needs a team built around it to be successful and can be broken apart in some situations very quickly. For example a Starmie comes in you send in Rotm and get hti with a hydro Pump denting your chances of Spin Blocking. you Spiker could get killed trying to set up Spikes and such like. A team with Salamence (not a team built around Salamence) is under no restrictions. Sure it can fail in the Salamence can be killed but on an offensive team this does not matter as another sweeper takes its place to sweep anyway. Thus the effects on the teams goal is much less severe. Salamence needs much less support for it to work successfuly than ssay, a Semi stall team.

Anyway I have said my piece for now and its late (for me). Hopefully I have given you all something to think about

Also I had a rather engaging battle with ipl when he used a Salamence to great effect. Granted this battle was during the Latias metagame and I am not sure if its relavent. If however, enough people want me to post the log (and if IPL agrees) I can do so if people wish.

Have a Nice Day!

EDIT sorryabout the large amount of Text, I did try and bod some relavent points though

 

[Shizzle]

The guessing game may be 50-50, in terms of move/resist, just remember only 1 type resists his STAB, and only Bronzong likes talking following Fire Blasts after Draco Meteor.

 

[shrang]

In terms of moveset/resists and pure theorymon, but when you put it into practise, it is very different to 50-50. If you were playing against a bot that was turned onto random attack mode, then yes, the chances of you guessing correctly is 50-50. However, when you play against other people, it is a very different scenario. An example would be say if Mence switched in against Heatran who is stuck on Earth Power (And your opponent knows this). Is it wise to switch to your darling bulky Water here?? I don't think so. A very obvious move is to use Draco Meteor here, so even going to Blissey is probably a better play than to go to Swampert or Suicune (Outrage isn't a likely move to come when Mence comes straight out). When a game is played, you can use your logic and analytical skills to reduce the chances of a bad switch-in. Yes, this is just a theorymon example, but I think I have made my point clear on how you can analyse the situation and reduce the 50-50 chance of making a bad switch.