When was the last time you took a motivational dump? Does a special defense stat of 154 ring a bell? The stats you mentioned simply don't compare, but if a BST of 600 is your argument, then you can put Dragonite, Metagross, and Tyranitar in there as well.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
The First Smogon Council - Salamence
- Thread starter Aeolus
- Start date
- Status
I suppose it could, in a sense. They can be attackers, special attackers, bulky, ect. So they both require a little prediction to face, and a wrong prediction can mean a loss in certain circumstances.
You're only counting Dragon as a STAB type, not Flying. And also, he has 3 weaknesses.
The point is, even with Ho-oh's x4 weakness to Stealth Rock, it still doesn't die anywhere near as easily as Mence. If you've played Ubers, you would know. Ho-oh is bulky that something like HP Rock coming from Modest 252 SpA SpecsTran doesn't guarantee you to kill it. Conversely, on the physical side of the spectrum, it can patch up to not so awesome bulk (But still excellent for OU standards) by burning you with Sacred Fire. If we move away from her bulk, you would also be attracted to its large Attack stat, and wielding Sacred Fire and Brave Bird, it can hit most things for neutral damage (TTar, Rhyperior and friends would hate getting Burned, while Stone Edge can easily be SubStalled out). If you look at Ho-oh's most effective sets, you would notice that unlike Salamence, she can easily get by with Physical attacking alone, while Mence is forced to go Mixed. Basically, Ho-oh can ramp up its offense while keeping its longetivity.
So no, comparing Mence to Ho-oh is not a good idea.
so now that we're coming up on the end of the month, i wonder when Salamances fate will be determined.
hopefully it's a one shot voting, either it's sent to ubers or stays ou with no constant "retesting"
hopefully it's a one shot voting, either it's sent to ubers or stays ou with no constant "retesting"
Actually, Ho-oh is considered a wall breaker, as it's main set includes Life Orb with Sacred Fire/Brave Bird/EQ as well as roost (sometimes sub) to stall things out as well. Even the banded version I would consider to be a wall breaker, since it isn't sweeping so much as it is punching holes to let other pokemon sweep. Both pokemon obviously want to stay alive as long as possible, and both perform similar jobs.
For proof:
I meant it uses really high powered attacks to obliderate things, so yes, I do mean it was a "wall breaker", just one that also can KO SpecsOgre and Rayquazas with those Band Brave Birds :P I'd rather face Salamence.
But, yeah, I don't play Ubers very much. All I recall of it is that it's a very fast paced environment.
But, yeah, I don't play Ubers very much. All I recall of it is that it's a very fast paced environment.
okay you guys are retarded. being uber is NOT SUBJECTIVE!!!! you know what dies REALLY easy? deoxys-a. but would anyone try to argue that it shuold be tested? each pokemon is uber for a different reason, we dont have one set rule on what makes a pokemon uber because obviously you can apply any argument to any pokemon so stop with the stupid uber comparisons
If I see another battle involving unskilled players trying to prove mence is broken or not, I am going to lose my mind. Anecdotal evidence from battles (if they should be included at all) should be between players playing at a very high skill level. I don't give a crap about some noob underutilizing his mence or a noob letting mence wreck his entire team, that has nothing to do with this argument.
It has been suggested that mence isn't broken because you can use fodder from a pokemon that has "done his job" or that isn't as important to your current matchup. This is a dumb argument. For one thing, it is NEVER gaurenteed that you even know the other 3-4 pokemon on your oppenents team before they decide to send out mence. How can you implement a strategy agaisnt an oppenets team that you don't even know? The answer is that you can't. All you can do is work off the information the pokemon that you have seen to make an educated guess to the rest of their team in deciding what to fodder. In fact, if you guess wrong and give up one of the only counters to a specific poke on their team (don't preach to me about team synergy in response as every team has pokemon that they struggle with when the primary counter is dead) that is gg right there. This is why mixmence (and DDmence by imitation) is so deadly early game, because before you have even determined your matchup against the other team, you must sac a poke. Another problem with this "fodder" solution to mence is that usually those who are using this strategy as an example usually have the momentum and pokemon advantage on their side when mence appears. But what happens when your opponent has outpredicted you (should happen eventually if you're playing good players) and forces you into the mence gambit when they are up 5-4? Are you saying it's a good primary response to a pokemon in this situation to go down 5-3? Of course it's not.
It has been suggested that mence isn't broken because you can use fodder from a pokemon that has "done his job" or that isn't as important to your current matchup. This is a dumb argument. For one thing, it is NEVER gaurenteed that you even know the other 3-4 pokemon on your oppenents team before they decide to send out mence. How can you implement a strategy agaisnt an oppenets team that you don't even know? The answer is that you can't. All you can do is work off the information the pokemon that you have seen to make an educated guess to the rest of their team in deciding what to fodder. In fact, if you guess wrong and give up one of the only counters to a specific poke on their team (don't preach to me about team synergy in response as every team has pokemon that they struggle with when the primary counter is dead) that is gg right there. This is why mixmence (and DDmence by imitation) is so deadly early game, because before you have even determined your matchup against the other team, you must sac a poke. Another problem with this "fodder" solution to mence is that usually those who are using this strategy as an example usually have the momentum and pokemon advantage on their side when mence appears. But what happens when your opponent has outpredicted you (should happen eventually if you're playing good players) and forces you into the mence gambit when they are up 5-4? Are you saying it's a good primary response to a pokemon in this situation to go down 5-3? Of course it's not.
Firstly, anecdotal evidence is exactly what this test is based on. It is based on the anecdotal experience of those who make the Council. Provided, they would be more high level players, but it is anecdotal evidence nonetheless.
Also, on the bit about you "sac" something to scout Mence, there is no way you are carrying DD TTar/Lucario/SD Scizor/DD Gyara/DD Kingdra/<insert sweeper> all on one team and have a balanced, usable team. This means, whatever Mence kills, he's still not consistently creating a condition where it is substantially easier for a teammate to sweep, which is what the Support Characteristic is all about. Also, there are times where people just sac like their 1HP lead Aerodactyl as fodder anyway, so they haven't lost anything. Incidentally, trading 1HP for 16% of Mence's health sounds like a pretty good deal to me.
TheValkyries
proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE
But LO/SR/Sandstorm bring Ho-oh to his knees! How good is one Brave Bird when the Recoil kills it?! Sacred Fire is cool but that gets owned by Arcanine, Houndoom, Ninetales, and Rapidash, as they ALL outspeed while practically setting up on Ho-oh's Sacred Fire! Who cares if they're UU and NU, they're still viable in OU. Oh, what was that? Something about Earthquake? Well, sure a few things will give them trouble, but they're still good!
Do I need to go on, or do you see my point?
@Aeroblacktyl: Obviously Mence is not Ho-oh in any way shape or form. But for the most part, many arguments about Mence have in some way involved how easily he folds to Residual damage, and how he gets countered by Cresselia. The same things can be said about Ho-oh. It's not about comparing Mence to Ho-oh, it's about comparing how ludicrous the arguments being applied here are.
I have no problem with people refering to their experiances playtesting as a whole, I just think the random crappy YouTube videos and single battle logs are pointless. Also, you said it perfectly when you stated that people sometimes sac Aerodacty to mence, the keyword being sometimes. My argument wasn't that this strategy can't be used to nullify mence, but that it that you won't always have perfect death fodder to give to mence and sometimes you will be required to make a Sophie's choice.
I hate to break up your Ho-Oh discusion, xD but I just wanted to report about my suspect laddering. The lack of Salamence seems to have quieted things down a bit. I've noticed an rather large increase in Balance/Stall teams. I haven't seen a huge rise for any one particular pokemon. (Though Celebi(s) may becoming a little more popular). A combo of Infernape and Starmie is working out pretty good. Anyone else noticing particular pokemon gaining popularity/being pretty good on their teams?
You're comparing the legendary version-mascot of Gold with a 680 BST to a three-stage final evolution pokemon with a 600 BST. Yeah, you've proven your point.
I hope you're being sarcastic here. Firstly, the Flash Fire Pokemon you mentioned here do NOT beat Ho-oh, while something like Cresselia does beat Mence most of the time. For God's sake, if you want to name a Flash Fire Pokemon, name Heatran (Who can't do crap back to Ho-oh and she'll just stall you out). Mence does fold to residue damage, but Ho-oh does not, since she has the bulk and a move slot to Roost it off, while Mence needs all four moveslots into attacking to be effective (I know Classic MixMence exists, but I'm quite sure people aren't complaining about that set).
EDIT: Moral of the story: Compare an apple to an apple
I believe the main point here is that, despite having a major weakness to Stealth Rock, a pokemon that is broken is still broken. 4x weaknesses, residual damage, etc. aren't gonna be what determines what tier Salamence is going to be because, gasp, it can't be "played around" if you can "play around" back.
You switch in your death fodder, I switch in my Rapid Spinner, or my wisher. What now?
Ho-Oh is 4x weak to stealth rock. xD
I agree that stealth rock is a lot of trouble for Salamence, but I have to say that MixMence can still seriously weaken teams, even when starting the battle with 75% health. Also, chances are that if you're using a Salamence, you have a pokemon to remove stealth rock/Prevent it from being set up. Most teams that Base teams around mence also have pokemon that can lure in and kill/ trap (Magnezone for steels) Choice Scarfers and other pokemon that can revenge Salamence (I'm looking at you, Scizor).
I decided I'm not going to be playing Shoddy for a long time because I am tired of this generation, I'll get back in for Gen 5. But this Salamence testing picked my interest and I have some points to make.
Before someone said a pro-OU argument was: Stopped by residual damage
However we know Salamence can do her job in a sandstorm. If she comes in just 2 times and nails 2 pokemon with Draco Meteor then she could support a Lucario sweep, especially the Agility sweeper who does around 50% to steels like Jirachi. And in a match between 2 great players I can see Salamence not having to worry about Stealth Rock, a Rapid Spin lead like Starmie or a taunt lead will make that happen. And many teams don't start off with stealth rock, making Toxic Spikes or Spikes a priority which Salamence doesn't care about. So in reality she can fit the support characteristic very easily with many teams. I don't think he she comes close in the offensive characteristic though.
A pro-Uber argument was: Forcing you to decide who dies, always gets 1 kill.
However true that may be this doesn't mean Salamence won the game for the team. As said you can throw out death fodder check her. And the timing of this test is something to consider. With Gen 5 around the corner Salamence will get a few more checks and maybe even a counter. We have dealt with her all this time and the metagame was always pretty fun, and even though suspect teams look different (fire+grass shows) that doesn't mean the metagame is centralized around Mence. Choice Band Scizor has many many more uses and ways to cause serious damage. 1 Pokemon with good defenses and an Ice attack is good enough to stop Mence from fitting the support characteristic if the player has any brains and it doesn't have to be Cresselia.
I don't care if she goes either way but I lean towards OU because I personally never had extreme trouble with her (I always used balanced teams, sometimes semi-stall) and we can wait for Gen 5. There is still room for creativity in a metagame with Mence. Like using Shaymin...!
If someone responds to this then I'll respond back because I enjoy arguments, if I said something you don't like please tell.
Before someone said a pro-OU argument was: Stopped by residual damage
However we know Salamence can do her job in a sandstorm. If she comes in just 2 times and nails 2 pokemon with Draco Meteor then she could support a Lucario sweep, especially the Agility sweeper who does around 50% to steels like Jirachi. And in a match between 2 great players I can see Salamence not having to worry about Stealth Rock, a Rapid Spin lead like Starmie or a taunt lead will make that happen. And many teams don't start off with stealth rock, making Toxic Spikes or Spikes a priority which Salamence doesn't care about. So in reality she can fit the support characteristic very easily with many teams. I don't think he she comes close in the offensive characteristic though.
A pro-Uber argument was: Forcing you to decide who dies, always gets 1 kill.
However true that may be this doesn't mean Salamence won the game for the team. As said you can throw out death fodder check her. And the timing of this test is something to consider. With Gen 5 around the corner Salamence will get a few more checks and maybe even a counter. We have dealt with her all this time and the metagame was always pretty fun, and even though suspect teams look different (fire+grass shows) that doesn't mean the metagame is centralized around Mence. Choice Band Scizor has many many more uses and ways to cause serious damage. 1 Pokemon with good defenses and an Ice attack is good enough to stop Mence from fitting the support characteristic if the player has any brains and it doesn't have to be Cresselia.
I don't care if she goes either way but I lean towards OU because I personally never had extreme trouble with her (I always used balanced teams, sometimes semi-stall) and we can wait for Gen 5. There is still room for creativity in a metagame with Mence. Like using Shaymin...!
If someone responds to this then I'll respond back because I enjoy arguments, if I said something you don't like please tell.
TheValkyries
proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE
Too bad I wasn't comparing the pokemon, I was comparing the arguments. The point was (in case you missed it), that those arguments have absolutely nothing to do with whether a pokemon is uber or not.
Obviously, I was.
Yes they do, actually, anything with a Moderate Physical Attack stat and powerful STAB can take out a 50% ho-oh. Oh wait, I just listed 75% of the OU metagame, let alone the Flash Fire ones. Ho-oh has no room to even roost on anything Physical or else it goes down.
Wait, what? That's exactly why I didn't list Heatran, since he doesn't do jack shit to a specially defensive wall.
Now let's get off whether or not random Flash Fire pokemon can take down a Ho-oh, as that wasn't the point of the argument.
Stop it, please. Mence doesn't have four moveslot syndrome. He only needs three moves to attain absolute perfect coverage. The 4th moveslot is perfectly open. The most popular choices there are Draco Meteor or Dragon Dance, but that doesn't mean there's no room for Roost.
But why does Mence carry DD and Draco Meteor over Roost?
Oh, yeah, because the Metagame is so overcentralized that every single pokemon has an Ice move, Stone Edge, or Outrage in at least one of their sets. Even if it's slashed in. Most even list Mence as the reason it's there. Why would Mence try to heal itself in a Meta where nearly everything has a SE attack ready to fire off at him?
You know what, just for funsies, I will now list off all the pokemon that don't carry a combination of those moves:
Ninjask
Smeargle
Tentacruel
Umbreon
Snorlax
Forretress
Bronzong
Scizor
Skarmory
Yeah. That's it.
Now, let's list all those that don't have a move that can OHKO Mence anyway:
Ninjask
Smeargle
Tentacruel
Umbreon
Skarmory
Now let's get rid of those that have only one attack on each of their sets:
Tentacruel
Yeah. It's funny, how in a Meta where everything and their mothers are aiming to take down Mence, that he still remains such a potent threat. I wonder why that could possibly be...
Ice is used on so many Pokes because it has fantastic neutral coverage. It also synergizes well with Electric. It's not used solely because of Salamence. If Flygon / Dragonite were top OU, Ice attacks would still be used. It's a go-to attack. Like I said, just because a Pokemon has the means to take out Salamence, and they choose to run an Ice-type attack, that's not overcentralization. That's preparing for a threat. Not EVERY Pokemon on your team will run HP Ice / Ice Beam. Gengar commonly runs HP Fire to deal with Scizor, as its Shadow Ball does quite a bit of damage to Salamence. Vaporeon runs Ice Beam because of Grassers / Flying-types / Gliscor / etc. There are more benefits to running an Ice move over just to kill Salamence.
Scizor has no Ice move, or Stone Edge, or outrage.
All of the all but 2 of the eeveelutions,
Azelf,
Blissey
Breloom
Celibi
Dusknoir
Gengar
Heatran
Jirachi
Metagross
All Rotoms
Skarmaory
There's a lot more, but its 12:31 am right now -_-
::EDIT::
Of course, if your counting HP Ice, that would leave nothing,
and THEN you might have a valid point when it comes to the quote.
TheValkyries
proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE
Yeah, Ice attacks. Getting that "go to" coverage for Gliscor, Flygon, and Hippowdon, and that stray Celebi and Roserade running about. Let's not forget all 5 of the OU Flying Types that get hit Super-Effectively. And just look at the things that resist it. Water and Steel? Light Weights.
15 resists to 10 Super-Effective.
Great coverage move you got there.
Edit: I'd like to point out that only the BoltBeam combo makes using Ice as a Coverage move make sense. But most of the things that run Ice Moves run it as filler coverage move because it gets Mence.
@Jats: Yes, I was counting HP Ice.
Some of the arguments in this thread are really going no where, and aren't even related to this suspect test at all.
I think I saw this a few pages back, but my biggest quirk with Salamence is that every time my opponent brings it in successfully that he is given an instant advantage. I am then forced to go to a steel type hoping that my opponent doesn't Fire Blast, or fodder something. Now since it's possible neither of us knows the entire contents of the other's team, my best switchin at the moment might be my Gliscor, but what if has a Lucario I haven't seen? So I may have to go to Starmie, but what if he has an Infernape waiting in the wings? Basically when Salamence gets in(which is its biggest flaw)I'm put into a checkmate situation. Those situations are assuming I'm going up a against a MixMence. DD Mence is a little easier to deal with to revenging but if I do assume DD I'm also likely to lose a Pokemon.
On a different note, I really am finding the Suspect Metagame to be quite fun. While I feel that it's centralized around the FWG core, I just find I have much more freedom when teambuilding. I honestly expected Mamoswine usage to go down as his major perk was being able to revenge Salamence, but with the rise of Heatran, Zapdos, and Shaymin I'm seeing, I guess he still has a use of checking all of those threats.
I think I saw this a few pages back, but my biggest quirk with Salamence is that every time my opponent brings it in successfully that he is given an instant advantage. I am then forced to go to a steel type hoping that my opponent doesn't Fire Blast, or fodder something. Now since it's possible neither of us knows the entire contents of the other's team, my best switchin at the moment might be my Gliscor, but what if has a Lucario I haven't seen? So I may have to go to Starmie, but what if he has an Infernape waiting in the wings? Basically when Salamence gets in(which is its biggest flaw)I'm put into a checkmate situation. Those situations are assuming I'm going up a against a MixMence. DD Mence is a little easier to deal with to revenging but if I do assume DD I'm also likely to lose a Pokemon.
On a different note, I really am finding the Suspect Metagame to be quite fun. While I feel that it's centralized around the FWG core, I just find I have much more freedom when teambuilding. I honestly expected Mamoswine usage to go down as his major perk was being able to revenge Salamence, but with the rise of Heatran, Zapdos, and Shaymin I'm seeing, I guess he still has a use of checking all of those threats.
Which of those commonly run HP Ice? I count 1, Celebi.
Uh, actually, you're a moron. The only one on that list that can KO 50% Ho-Oh is Arcanine with CB ThunderFang. If you've ever played Ubers, you'd know that Ho-Oh is damn durable.
So...your saying I might have a point!?
Woo, go me!
- Status