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The MMA/Boxing/Fighting Sports Thread
- Thread starter Commander Blue
- Start date
Alves is ATT.
Fitch, Kos and Swick are all AKA not ATT.
I'm not entirely sure that Hughes could actually LNP Swick either, just because Okami was taking him down doesn't mean Hughes will -- Okami is a lot bigger and dare I say more skill than Hughes ever was.
And realistically the only person with more than a punchers chance against GSP is Fitch (provided he doesn't make the mistakes he made during their first fight) -- Rumble/Alves both have the chance of an early KO (and Rumble may even be able to stay vertical, who knows)...
As for Saku retiring: yes, he's about 5 years past his prime but due to the fact he's the most skilled fighter ever (for those not aware; Saku is barely bigger than BJ Penn -- or at least was 9 years ago and even then he was still kinda chubby) he's actually still capable of beating a fair number of guys.
HAHA I always get AKA and ATT mixed up but when I'm not slow and actually say American Kickboxing Academy and American Top Team it all makes sense! I used to (sometimes still do) mix up Chute Box and BTT guys too.
The only people I've ever seen completely nullify Hughes' takedowns were GSP and BJ Penn. Both of them still had some issues. Swick doesn't have the build of GSP nor the skill of BJ (IMO) to do the same.
Also I'm not really sure about "due to the fact he's the most skilled fighter ever," regarding Sakuraba. How do you even measure skill in MMA? Do you look at who's the most well-rounded? Best records? Most Sub/(T)KO wins? Most accomplishments such as submission tourney wins or Olympic appearances? Wins over the biggest names? I could go on all day. The point is I don't think there is any real way of telling who was the most SKILLED fighter.
Sakuraba's a legend in the sport and most of his losses came from guys larger than him. I still wouldn't call him the best most skilled even in his prime, though.
Which is why Okami's never been champion and Hughes has been considered amongst the p4p elite if not the p4p king for a while. Not mentionning he's been a many times defending champion and nobody disputed his dominance over his division for a while.
As for your opinions regarding Okami and especially Sakuraba, it is wild how you express them as facts.
Let's put it this way.
Who else has nullified 30-50 pound advantages from **legitimate competitors** (i.e. not freakshows) as successfully as Saku did?
Competitive with Little Nog, Cro Cop and Wanderlei (except for the first Wand fight..).
Took Rampage down repeatedly and subbed him (this is basically like GSP or BJ Penn doing it in terms of size).
Subbed Randleman (and this is 2003 Randleman who was mauling Couture for 2 rounds before gassing as opposed to 2005 onwards Randleman).
Beat Vitor Belfort pretty convincingly.
Arm barred a legitimate 240 pound BJJ black belt in Silveira (2 places removed from Carlson Gracie Jr) who was widely considered to be a beast at Heavyweight.
Beat 4 different Gracies at their own game.
The only time Saku ever got really mauled at his peak was the first Wanderlei fight (near the start of Wanderlei's streak where he was owning everyone until meeting Mark fricken Hunt and later Arona) and his fight with Arona who had lost 2 fights at that point (one decision to Fedor in RINGS where you couldn't punch the face from the top which is where Arona was most of the fight, and a slam/headbutt KO from Rampage) and had about 30 pounds on Saku.
Pretty much no fighter has been able to negate size with skill like Saku did; you hear GSP talking about going to fight at MW like it's an incredible jump because it is -- and GSP is a big WW. If Saku showed up today he'd probably fight at LW or WW instead of fighting 200+ pound opposition.
So.....you're saying by beating guys bigger than him that makes Sakuraba the most skilled fighter of all time? Give me a break.
I respect Sakuraba for his skills and for what he did for MMA in general, but come on.
-Little Nog beat beat him convincingly
-Cro Cop broke his legs
-He was never even close to beating Wanderlei in any of their fights. Getting murdered by the same guy 3 times in one-sided fights is a losing argument
-He took out an inexperienced Rampage. What did Page have anyways other than size and some wrestling ability? Take Page from 2007, hell today, vs Saku in his prime and I wouldn't put a dime on Sakuraba. The fact that Page was competitive against world-class competition several years ago looks more impressive on Page's resume more than showing Saku's skills.
-Randleman. Another wrestler. yay
-Beat a young kid in Vitor. Although a scary kid
-Beating the Gracies and other BJJ guys are what cemented his legacy, really.
Sakuraba's grapling was always amazing, but saying he's the most skilled fighter ever and stating it as a fact is ridiculous.
Some other things I wanted to point out:
-Saying Saku was the best because he hung in there with guys much larger than him isn't very relevant to MMA today. How the fuck are GSP/Silva/Penn/Machida/etc. supposed to prove they're the best when they can't fight men that much larger than themselves?? No such thing as open-weight GP's anymore, I'm afraid.
I could pick out a bunch of 185's that GSP would maul, does that make him the best? Same goes for any other "highly regarded" fighter in MMA today.
Psst GSP is wise not to fight Anderson Silva. GSP weighs 185-190lbs in fight form vs Anderson who walks around at 220+lbs. Funny that you say GSP is a big Walterweight in this post and in another you claim he's not big for a 170.
Silva would walk through most heavyweights. Could he win your argument?? See where I'm going with this? Not to mention Saku lost to a lot of the guys but it's okay because Saku was smaller lol....
Not meaning to sound like an ass, but the way you're describing Sakuraba as the best ever really isn't selling for me.
I respect Sakuraba for his skills and for what he did for MMA in general, but come on.
-Little Nog beat beat him convincingly
-Cro Cop broke his legs
-He was never even close to beating Wanderlei in any of their fights. Getting murdered by the same guy 3 times in one-sided fights is a losing argument
-He took out an inexperienced Rampage. What did Page have anyways other than size and some wrestling ability? Take Page from 2007, hell today, vs Saku in his prime and I wouldn't put a dime on Sakuraba. The fact that Page was competitive against world-class competition several years ago looks more impressive on Page's resume more than showing Saku's skills.
-Randleman. Another wrestler. yay
-Beat a young kid in Vitor. Although a scary kid
-Beating the Gracies and other BJJ guys are what cemented his legacy, really.
Sakuraba's grapling was always amazing, but saying he's the most skilled fighter ever and stating it as a fact is ridiculous.
Some other things I wanted to point out:
-Saying Saku was the best because he hung in there with guys much larger than him isn't very relevant to MMA today. How the fuck are GSP/Silva/Penn/Machida/etc. supposed to prove they're the best when they can't fight men that much larger than themselves?? No such thing as open-weight GP's anymore, I'm afraid.
I could pick out a bunch of 185's that GSP would maul, does that make him the best? Same goes for any other "highly regarded" fighter in MMA today.
Psst GSP is wise not to fight Anderson Silva. GSP weighs 185-190lbs in fight form vs Anderson who walks around at 220+lbs. Funny that you say GSP is a big Walterweight in this post and in another you claim he's not big for a 170.
Silva would walk through most heavyweights. Could he win your argument?? See where I'm going with this? Not to mention Saku lost to a lot of the guys but it's okay because Saku was smaller lol....
Not meaning to sound like an ass, but the way you're describing Sakuraba as the best ever really isn't selling for me.
1. The Little Nog fight was close.
2. You're thinking of Yoshida not Saku with the leg kicks, that fight got stopped because of Saku's eye -- somewhat similar to Couture/Belfort II.
3. He sunk a choke in on Wanderlei during their second fight and was winning until the doctor stopped it because of his collarbone being broken (essentially Wand slammed him, broke his collarbone and Saku was still all over him..).
4. Rampage is worse now than he was then, at least then he actually used his wrestling, now all he does is stand in the same place and use his boxing.. which sucks because he has no footwork.
5. Belfort was 22 years old when he fought Saku and probably the best he ever has been; Vitor never improved from the kid that knocked out Tank.
BJ Penn gets mauled by WW's, that's why he isn't in the WW division any more -- he wouldn't be competitive at 185.
GSP didn't exactly seem excited about the prospect of fighting at 185, let alone 205 (for reference; GSP is bigger than Saku, GSP sits around 185-190). And btw, GSP is a big WW, he's just not *that* big -- Alves/Rumble absolutely tower over him in terms of size.
Anderson Silva is talking about fighting at his natural weight (HW, Anderson is like 220 pounds) and saying he wants to fight some names at HW -- if he's competitive with the guys around 240-250 pounds (i.e. Cain, Mirko, Mir, Kongo) who are legitimate top 10 competitors then you can put him in the same boat as Saku.
Machida.. give it time is all I'll say on this one.
Some things I want to respond to:
Look, the point is, just because he beat some guys bigger than him and put up a fight against larger men doesn't make Sakuraba the best fighter ever. His grappling was world class but anybody could watch Sakuraba fight and tell you his standup sucks. How can that be the attributes of the most skilled fighter??? The guy's a warrior no doubt, but give me a break. I'd say he's one of the most willing men to fight anybody, has a huge heart, loves the sport, but not the most skilled ever. To each his own, I suppose.
Guys like Fedor/GSP/BJ Penn/Anderson/Shogun in their primes would be candidates for that award imo. They're all extremely well-rounded and unlike Sakuraba, they have the records to back it up.
4. That doesn't even make sense. Look at the opponents Rampage has faced since entering the UFC and tell me he should have used his wrestling:
Eastman-Page is a better fighter in general. Wasn't much of a fight for him.
Liddell-Page KOed chuck and may have used his wrestling if the fight went on further. We'll never know.
Hendo-If you were coaching page, would you honestly suggest for him to grapple with Hendo? Didn't think so.
Griffin-Griffin's got good jui jits and a lot of people including Page's camp thought he'd KO Griffin early. Not much of a reason for him to take down a juijuits guy when he's been koed early before.
Wandy-that was going to be a stand-up war if Page/Wandy 1 and 2 suggested anything. Besides the fight ended pretty early.
Jardine-Any fighter from Greg Jackson's camp will have good grappling skills and Jardine's been koed early before, so why would page use his wrestling here?
Rampage is 5-1 since coming to the UFC. You're saying that he's a worse fighter now when there was never any logical reason for him to actually take any of his opponents down.
Anyways
5. Knocking out Matt Lindland has nothing on knocking out Tank Abott? Really?
The only 170 that's mauled BJ is GSP. Everyone else had a fight on their hands and Hughes was choked out once. Pssst GSP mauls everyone he fights.
Why the hell would GSP fight at 185 or 205? He's the champion at 170. I'm really getting tired of people saying highly regarded fighters need to move up in weight class like they need to prove something. That's just retarded. GSP has already cemented his legacy as the greatest 170lb fighter yet. What the fuck does he have to prove in a bigger weight class? He's fighting in the optimum division, just like everybody else.
Anderson has at least 30lbs on GSP. Don't even mention Sakuraba because he typically loses to guys with skill that are bigger than him. You honestly think Sakuraba in his prime could come in the UFC and beat top guys from each division?
MMA's evolved to the point where staying at the lowest weight class is almost necessary in order to be successful. Like I've said before, top level guys are way too fucking rounded and fighters such as the Gracies/Sakuraba/pick your one dimensional fighter wouldn't do much good in any weight class.
EDIT: Saku's nowhere near as one-dimensional as the Gracies per say, but he definantly wouldn't be all that competitive in modern day MMA. At least not in a wide range of weight classes. He'd probably stick to either 170 or 155 and he was chubby anyways. I couldn't see Sakuraba doing well in any other class and I doubt he'd be the champ in either in the UFC at least.
2. Yoshida bleh my bad. I just rewatched that too. I'll give you that one. Either way Saku couldn't even finish Crocop from the top.
Look, the point is, just because he beat some guys bigger than him and put up a fight against larger men doesn't make Sakuraba the best fighter ever. His grappling was world class but anybody could watch Sakuraba fight and tell you his standup sucks. How can that be the attributes of the most skilled fighter??? The guy's a warrior no doubt, but give me a break. I'd say he's one of the most willing men to fight anybody, has a huge heart, loves the sport, but not the most skilled ever. To each his own, I suppose.
Guys like Fedor/GSP/BJ Penn/Anderson/Shogun in their primes would be candidates for that award imo. They're all extremely well-rounded and unlike Sakuraba, they have the records to back it up.
4. That doesn't even make sense. Look at the opponents Rampage has faced since entering the UFC and tell me he should have used his wrestling:
Eastman-Page is a better fighter in general. Wasn't much of a fight for him.
Liddell-Page KOed chuck and may have used his wrestling if the fight went on further. We'll never know.
Hendo-If you were coaching page, would you honestly suggest for him to grapple with Hendo? Didn't think so.
Griffin-Griffin's got good jui jits and a lot of people including Page's camp thought he'd KO Griffin early. Not much of a reason for him to take down a juijuits guy when he's been koed early before.
Wandy-that was going to be a stand-up war if Page/Wandy 1 and 2 suggested anything. Besides the fight ended pretty early.
Jardine-Any fighter from Greg Jackson's camp will have good grappling skills and Jardine's been koed early before, so why would page use his wrestling here?
Rampage is 5-1 since coming to the UFC. You're saying that he's a worse fighter now when there was never any logical reason for him to actually take any of his opponents down.
Anyways
5. Knocking out Matt Lindland has nothing on knocking out Tank Abott? Really?
The only 170 that's mauled BJ is GSP. Everyone else had a fight on their hands and Hughes was choked out once. Pssst GSP mauls everyone he fights.
Why the hell would GSP fight at 185 or 205? He's the champion at 170. I'm really getting tired of people saying highly regarded fighters need to move up in weight class like they need to prove something. That's just retarded. GSP has already cemented his legacy as the greatest 170lb fighter yet. What the fuck does he have to prove in a bigger weight class? He's fighting in the optimum division, just like everybody else.
Anderson has at least 30lbs on GSP. Don't even mention Sakuraba because he typically loses to guys with skill that are bigger than him. You honestly think Sakuraba in his prime could come in the UFC and beat top guys from each division?
MMA's evolved to the point where staying at the lowest weight class is almost necessary in order to be successful. Like I've said before, top level guys are way too fucking rounded and fighters such as the Gracies/Sakuraba/pick your one dimensional fighter wouldn't do much good in any weight class.
EDIT: Saku's nowhere near as one-dimensional as the Gracies per say, but he definantly wouldn't be all that competitive in modern day MMA. At least not in a wide range of weight classes. He'd probably stick to either 170 or 155 and he was chubby anyways. I couldn't see Sakuraba doing well in any other class and I doubt he'd be the champ in either in the UFC at least.
Diaz/Guillard was a great fight, good to see Nate fighting someone who actually wanted to finish (as opposed to lie on him for 3 rounds).
I'd keep arguing the Saku thing, but it's going to go on forever with no opinions changing, if you honestly don't think Saku would beat Penn then you're pretty delusional.
I'd keep arguing the Saku thing, but it's going to go on forever with no opinions changing, if you honestly don't think Saku would beat Penn then you're pretty delusional.
I don't think any human being could beat Penn at 155. At least not right now, and its a a shame that the UFC doesn't have the best 155ers other than BJ. As for the Saku thing, it's probably irrelevant since I doubt he'd ever cut to 155 and Penn wasn't that amazing at 170. It's still a nice dream match up tbh.
I'm glad Nate won via sub. It's not as if we didn't see that coming though. That's what you get for faking being hurt and taking down a GRACIE juijits guy lol. Melvin's the Houston Alexander/James Irvin/brawler equivalent at 155 imo.
All of the fights were great, by the way. Nate Quarry came back in a big way, Huerta went out with a bang and showed great heart (hope he signs another contract though it seems unlikely), Maynard moves up some more, and he'll probably get another big name opponent soon.
What do you guys think about Franklin vs Belfort this weekend? Is Vitor back to being "the phenom?" Is Franklin still a relevant fighter or just gatekeeper until he retires? I'm not sure on my predictions on this one lol. If it goes the distance I see Franklin winning by UD, but Vitor has nasty hands and can end fights sooooo early. Ask Lindland, or Wanderlei, or Tank lol.
What about Dos Santos vs Crocop? Crocop seems to be washed up but his KO ability is undeniable. Quite frankly, both of these guys roll through a lot of higher ranked fighters and imo they'd both murder Frank Mir, which is a possible bout in the future for the winner.
Vitor has always had the skills to be a top guy, the problem is that he's a tinman -- his skills have also never really changed. Franklin is eternally irrelevant at MW (unless Anderson retires, and even then I see Nate, Hendo, Kang and Sexyama causing him problems).
CroCop vs JDS will be interesting -- if Junior is smart he'll stay in tight and box with Mirko rather than get range and have his head knocked off.
As for murdering Mir -- I'm really not sure what made him a top 5 HW, I really don't think beating a Nog that was plainly a shadow of himself should put you in the top 5 -- Kharitanov (in shape, as opposed to fat Sergei that got MONSON'D) would murder Mir as would Gonzaga, Werdum, Carwin and probably Cain despite his non-jaw he's got going on.
The only thing I really care about at 103 is my hope that Franca punches Tyson Griffin's face into a hamburger.
Sadly 103 has been crippled by Swick getting injured - probably the best contender for GSP besides Rumble or Fitch imo, Georges really doesn't like getting hit and Swick has very fast hands.
Edit: and if Guillard is the Houston of 155, then Houston has massively improved recently -- I'm entirely confident that any Brazilian ever has a better ground game than Houston.
I dont think either Kang and especially not Akiyama would be a threat to Franklin at 185. Nate and Hendo sure would be however.
Can we also stop making excuses for fighters when they lose to try to rationalize an upset? Kharitonov is never climbing the ladder back to contender status.
Interestingly, Cain's got no jaw, I assume this stems from Kongo, an elite striking dropping him...... but without finishing him? Nog was dropped more violently in every single one of his UFC fights except his one with Couture.... nobody ever questionned his jaw.
GSP also doesn't like getting hit, hence why he spent a very big portion of his fight with Alves, an elite striker, standing, and even beat him at it. Should GSP not use his best tool to win fights just to prove he "isnt afraid to fucking get hit", mma fans would jump on him like they did Sherk for not using his wrestling.... as they should.
Can we also stop making excuses for fighters when they lose to try to rationalize an upset? Kharitonov is never climbing the ladder back to contender status.
Interestingly, Cain's got no jaw, I assume this stems from Kongo, an elite striking dropping him...... but without finishing him? Nog was dropped more violently in every single one of his UFC fights except his one with Couture.... nobody ever questionned his jaw.
GSP also doesn't like getting hit, hence why he spent a very big portion of his fight with Alves, an elite striker, standing, and even beat him at it. Should GSP not use his best tool to win fights just to prove he "isnt afraid to fucking get hit", mma fans would jump on him like they did Sherk for not using his wrestling.... as they should.
You're right; Sergei won't be top 10 again (though I'd love to see him come back to his 2004 form), but him being fat now isn't an excuse, just compare 2004 Sergei to 2009 Sergei, the difference is obvious.
Kongo doesn't really have on punch KO power though (so far as I'm aware all his TKO's come from knockdown / GNP, he never really shuts the lights off) and he was knocking Cain down in a way that generally implies you got rocked (Cain was continuing to come forward, rather than fly backwards) whereas Nog was sent down by sheer force from the Herring kick (no doubt he was rocked also, mind, but if you're not rocked after that kick you're Ray fucking Sefo) and the big flurry from Tim in the first round as well as the Mir fight.
My alternate theory of course is that Cain was actually letting himself drop so he could shoot at the legs.
I fully agree with this -- especially that GSP should use his wrestling, however GSP plainly does not respond well when he gets hit with a big flurry of punches (see: first round/fight with BJ Penn and the Serra fight), Alves as good as he is doesn't really put a lot of good combinations together and tends to rely on knees/kicks.
As for Kang not being a threat; it depends which Kang shows up, sometimes he's great and sometimes he's a C level fighter. Also I forgot to mention Sonnen as a threat to Franklin at 185.
Edit: Holy shit, Belfort is screwed if this fight goes for too long -- 4 attempts to make weight, and Franca missed by 4 pounds.. bad start for the Brazilians.
Edit 2: ahh fuck, Franca lost.. fuck now I have to put up with Tyson Griffin jabbing has way to victory (or lying on people) for 3 rounds on another main card sometime soon.. fuck.
Edit 3: Really that fight didn't show Vitor being improved, just showed that Rich really isn't that good at dealing with fast moving strikers. JDS did well I thought, I firmly believe he's the best of the prospects (Carwin, Cain, JDS, Duffee, Rogers).
Griffin's a great fighter. He does more than just jab, too. He picks angles and throws dynomite. He's got nasty leg kicks and amazing wrestling. Honestly, Franca throws retarded looking punches and got punished for it. Glad to see Griffin winning again and he's a future champ I think.
Also agree with you on Dos Santos but a young Crocop would murder him imo. Oh well time moves on and I'm confident this was Filipovic's last fight. Thanks for everything and if I manage to live for much longer I'll make sure the next generation of fans sees your highlight reels! In his prime only Wanderlei could compete with him for the title "most dangerous fighter in the world." Psst fuck poser Shamrock. :)
I recall him getting outboxed by T-Rex arms, he won't last 3 rounds, let alone 5 with Penn -- the win over a horrible looking Franca doesn't really elevate him in my eyes (that version of Franca looked like the Shogun who showed up to fight Coleman) I don't think he's a future champ as long as Penn, Maynard etc are in front of him.
Not sure on that, even in his prime Cro Cop HATED being bullied around (Fedor did it to him, Bernardo and Hoost did it to him in K-1 and Gonzaga did it in 2007 also) and that was exactly what Dos Santos did.
He's improved significantly though. His movement is much more fluid and his timing is better. I don't believe he could beat Penn. I've stated I wouldn't pick ANYONE to beat Penn at 155 today, but I do see him becoming a champion in the future. BJ's gonna get bored/tired eventually lol.
A rematch with Sherk would be cool but Sherk's spiraling downwards and that fight would be way too risky for Griffin. Maynard would be an interesting fight no doubt as well as Sanchez.
Sherk hasn't really gone downhill physically.
Unfortunately watching Sherk fight right now is depressing because he's not sticking to his strengths (wrestling, leg kicks).
Unlike yourself though I don't see BJ as miles above everyone else, personally I'd give Aoki, Kawajiri (provided he doesn't fight like he did against Gomi), Hansen and Alvarez all a decent shot as well as Hayato Sakurai (assuming he stops eating Korean BBQ and makes LW like he used to) -- some guys in the US have a shot too (like Gray and Sherk, hell even KenFlo provided he doesn't try to use a strategy he isn't physically designed for).
Edit: Cro Cop picture.. you can tell he doesn't really want to fight anymore.
How bout some links Trax. :)
I can't wait for Shogun to (hopefully) show the world why he was the #1 fighter in the world back in the day. I just love the guy and I have a good feeling he's going to shock quite a few people very soon!!
psst Rampage retired apparently, but I'm pretty sure he'll come back and is just using this "retirement" as a bargaining chip.
I can't wait for Shogun to (hopefully) show the world why he was the #1 fighter in the world back in the day. I just love the guy and I have a good feeling he's going to shock quite a few people very soon!!
psst Rampage retired apparently, but I'm pretty sure he'll come back and is just using this "retirement" as a bargaining chip.
http://www.myvideofight.com/
That and MMA-Core are decent places to start.
If Shogun comes in to the Machida fight in shape, he can win; Machida was showing signs of tiring during the Tito fight and Shogun has a chin made of granite (little Nog, who hits significantly harder than big Nog for some unknown reason caught him flush on the button -- he went down from sheer force of the blow but was right back up).