Foslass beats Honch with Ice beam, and Lee typically has a scarf(atleast in the current UU). And he can only superpower so much...
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
The New Face of UU
- Thread starter TVboyCanti
- Start date
- Status
@Random Pizzaman-- Um . . . how does froslass beat honchkrow? Honchkrow will be scarfed or have Sucker Punch. Hitmonlee cannot switch in on Krow, but Krow can come in to make kills on any of the others. He didn't say Krow would 6-0 that team, ghe said it would do pretty well-- which it would.
Frankly though, thinking of pokemon to beat a hypothetical team that doesn't even look all that great on paper seems pretty pointless.
But you're right, honchkrow would do very well overall against that team.
In comparison to Absol, Honchkrow's big assets are Insomnia and it's very nice Special Attack stat to use with Heat Wave/Icy Wind/Hidden Power
Frankly though, thinking of pokemon to beat a hypothetical team that doesn't even look all that great on paper seems pretty pointless.
Beh, prediction dependancy . . .
But you're right, honchkrow would do very well overall against that team.
In comparison to Absol, Honchkrow's big assets are Insomnia and it's very nice Special Attack stat to use with Heat Wave/Icy Wind/Hidden Power
Froslass ALWAYS carries Focaus Sash or maybe brightpowder for the frustrating froslass, and lee can comein on Dark Pulse
All I was doing was asking if someone used hail, calm down.
And everyone has warned everyone about a possible blaziken sweep. its getting old, as i said there are ways around it. and your posted showed us another one (ice shard).
I dont need to see the whole match. and my pet peeve is how you havent read anything i've said. such as how i said uu hail teams may only have 2 ice types on the whole team.
There are very few safe switch ins to Honchkrow; the fact that it looks like it could cause trouble to that hypothetical team could be said about most other teams and with many other choiced Pokemon.
Speaking of Honchkrow, I imagine that it will be nigh hard to find a safe switchin to it. It's in the same vein as Absol concerning type coverage, with additional STAB to combat defensive fighters, and Absol wasn't anything to scoff at in the first place. Thankfully, it doesn't have Swords Dance. Then there's the mixed Nasty Plotter, specs, etc.
Speaking of Honchkrow, I imagine that it will be nigh hard to find a safe switchin to it. It's in the same vein as Absol concerning type coverage, with additional STAB to combat defensive fighters, and Absol wasn't anything to scoff at in the first place. Thankfully, it doesn't have Swords Dance. Then there's the mixed Nasty Plotter, specs, etc.
Ah, forgot that Drill Peck would actually be important for breaking those fighting types. Too bad it has such repetitive coverage with Heat Wave. Actually with so few steel types (compared to OU), maybe heat wave will be the one taking the bench. Krow might be going full physical. CB with 4 from Night Slash, Drill Peck, Superpower, Pursuit and Sucker Punch looks lethal. Too bad both its defenses and speed are just out of range to be really useful.
SR is a problem see,, and it gets outclassed by Heatran somewhat.
Magmortar isn't anywhere near the same level of threat-ness that those three are on.
Because Magmortar is slow; thats the reason for alot of poke's staying BL, like Medicham, Blaziken and Ursaring. And he's somewhat outclassed
What happens when OU changes?
Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe there has not been recheck on the OU where at least 1 pokemon was removed.
So if a pokemon in January is found to be OU, but then drops out of OU in March, will it be added to UU or that magical ban list?
If it is added to the ban list, what if it is tentacruel? Clearly this pokemon has shown in the past to not be too powerful for UU, but when its usage rised, it became OU.
What in the off chance Tryrantiar or Blissey dropped from OU. Not saying this will happen, but it works for the example can we send them straight to that magic ban list? What about things that have a less clear line, such as Kingdra.
To ban them would be the simplist of solutions, yet again things like Tentacruel seem to be at a disadvatage if they dropped from the OU list.
Yet to put every drop into the metagame would require testing everytime OU changed to see the conflict, so besides the planned testing to go on, by the time you find suspects to ban/keep, a new OU list comes out with even more testing.
I don't have a solution, it just something I find will cause problems down the line, more of a "I see a problem with this" post, but I support the idea
Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe there has not been recheck on the OU where at least 1 pokemon was removed.
So if a pokemon in January is found to be OU, but then drops out of OU in March, will it be added to UU or that magical ban list?
If it is added to the ban list, what if it is tentacruel? Clearly this pokemon has shown in the past to not be too powerful for UU, but when its usage rised, it became OU.
What in the off chance Tryrantiar or Blissey dropped from OU. Not saying this will happen, but it works for the example can we send them straight to that magic ban list? What about things that have a less clear line, such as Kingdra.
To ban them would be the simplist of solutions, yet again things like Tentacruel seem to be at a disadvatage if they dropped from the OU list.
Yet to put every drop into the metagame would require testing everytime OU changed to see the conflict, so besides the planned testing to go on, by the time you find suspects to ban/keep, a new OU list comes out with even more testing.
I don't have a solution, it just something I find will cause problems down the line, more of a "I see a problem with this" post, but I support the idea
From what I gathered in the policy review topic, pokemon dropping from OU will be placed into UU until there is evidence that they deserve banning. Then they get banished. As such, I believe that Blissey, Tyranitar, Kingdra, and Tentacruel will all be at least tested in UU if they ever fall off the OU list. Then they will be either banished to BL or allowed in UU when they are not in OU.
well this is part of my point
If this were to happen, nothing but more testing would occur. I suppose eventually all 493 pokemon will be given i teir, maybe we should look at it like that?
Right now the way it is set up
UBER-banlist for competitive play
OU-The current (IIRC ) 20% of the metagame
BL-Banlist for UU
UU-pokemon the other 80% of the metagame, minus BL and UBER
In all theory, pokemon belong really only in 3 tiers (I'm most likely using the wrong word, so i do appologize)
UBER
BL
UU
again only in theory
but looking at it this way. UBER is the tier where everything broken is. Everything else "in theory" is in UU. Anything that overcenturalizes the UU metagame but does not break battles goes into the BL tier. OU is just the name for the top 20%, wether they are UU or BL if used in the top 20% tile for 3 monthes, they are classified as OU, hence why things such as Tentacruel were UU but became OU. It doesn't break UU, it just became OU
So one way we could work it is this
Every pokemon is given a rank UU or BL, just like we plan to do, but thrown in the OU's as well.
So for now on every pokemon is UU or BL, and then gain an additional label OU. If OU, wether it was BL or UU is banned from UU, but if it drops from OU it gains it second title.( Eventually adding NU to the mix as well)
Otherwise you just keep on testing and nothing ever gets ocomplished.
Pretneding we got a UU/BL with the current method.
Pretend Tyranitar drops, now I'm pretty sure 99.99% of the community will auto give it a BL title, but to prove that, would we not have to test it? If tyranitar only drops from Ou for a 3 month period, then the whole test was in a away pointless, sure i suppose that if it drops again, we know where it goes, but you have metagame shifts.
Well its one solution but I doubt it will happen, not like 1 person can effect the communities goals
It would be good if the result would be a BL list that primarily includes pokemon who spend most of their time in OU.
Wouldn't the ideal BL list have nothing in it?
This is hopeful, but for all we know, this UU could turn out to be perfectly balanced, and then we won't need to ban anything at all! And, again being hopeful, but I think the ideal situation would be that anything that drops from OU can integrate smoothly into the UU metagame.
But, yes, basically, we want the BL list to be as small as possible, as that's the way we can ensure that nearly every Pokemon has an environment to play in, in which they can be useful (that's after we create lower usage tiers obviously).
This is hopeful, but for all we know, this UU could turn out to be perfectly balanced, and then we won't need to ban anything at all! And, again being hopeful, but I think the ideal situation would be that anything that drops from OU can integrate smoothly into the UU metagame.
But, yes, basically, we want the BL list to be as small as possible, as that's the way we can ensure that nearly every Pokemon has an environment to play in, in which they can be useful (that's after we create lower usage tiers obviously).
this isn't going to be a smooth process at all. there will be no BL list for this new UU at the start but once things are classed as "broken" they will be bumped up to BL.
You can't possibly know for sure that this won't be a smooth process. You're probably right in that it won't be, but I think we need to be open-minded and prepared for every possible situation.
What if nothing needs to be banned? I'm sure a lot of people won't understand that, and try and get things banned anyway. Not to mention, there's those who are determined to make this test produce a BL list identical to the current one.
I'm being open minded about this. I'm looking forward to this new metagame. however I can almost guarantee this wont be a smooth process.
I want a BL list very small when this is said and done.
I want a BL list very small when this is said and done.
When I first came to smogon, I think there was like 80 OUs and 17 BLs.
Correct me if I wasn't like this.
I think at the end of the day we all want that. The whole point of re-defining the underused tier is to make as many Pokemon viable as possible. The BL tier sort of defines a Pokemon that is too strong for Underused, but really not quite good enough for Overused (although there may be some specific niches.) At the end of the day the "ideal" situation is that no Pokemon end up in BL so there are no Pokemon in "Limbo" that can't really be played. Personally I'd love to see that happen but we also will need a bit of balance in the metagame lol. I think we should be quite strict with bannings to be honest, if we go and ban this willy nilly because some threats are "powerful" then we're never actually going to balance the metagame, we're just going to keep complaining, so I think unless something reaches Garchomp like levels, we should try to keep banning to a minimum.
I'd prefer it if people were able to think of the BL and OU labels as separate.
IE.
BL is just a label as to whether something is too strong for UU or not.
OU is just a label as to whether something is used frequently in the OU metagame or not.
Either label can keep a pokemon out of UU, but the two labels do not interact directly. We would have pokemon who have 1 label but not the other.
For instance, say Espeon was found to be too strong to be UU. It would be BL but not OU.
Espeon:
BL Status: Yes (Too strong for UU)
OU Status: No (Not used enough in OU to make OU list)
Y/N's would always be banned from UU regardless of their usage in OU.
Then there could also be pokemon who have no BL status but have OU Status, let's say if Tentacruel fit this.
Tentacruel:
BL Status: No (It's not too strong for UU)
OU Status: Yes (Used enough in OU to make OU list)
N/Y pokemon would enter or leave UU dependant on whether they make the OU list or not.
Then there would be a host of pokemon that might hold both status.
Tyranitar, Salamence, Heatran, Scizor, Zapdos, Gyarados . . . etc.:
BL Status: Yes (Too strong for UU)
OU Status: Yes (Used enough to make OU list)
Y/Y's are banned from UU for both reasons. Of course I'm sure this will include much weaker pokemon as well. We won't know which pokemon will truly have BL status until/unless they come down and we actually see them in "new UU" battle. Pokemon who have an OU label though can't battle in UU anyway though, so we will only check the ones that fall from OU obviously.
IE.
BL is just a label as to whether something is too strong for UU or not.
OU is just a label as to whether something is used frequently in the OU metagame or not.
Either label can keep a pokemon out of UU, but the two labels do not interact directly. We would have pokemon who have 1 label but not the other.
For instance, say Espeon was found to be too strong to be UU. It would be BL but not OU.
Espeon:
BL Status: Yes (Too strong for UU)
OU Status: No (Not used enough in OU to make OU list)
Y/N's would always be banned from UU regardless of their usage in OU.
Then there could also be pokemon who have no BL status but have OU Status, let's say if Tentacruel fit this.
Tentacruel:
BL Status: No (It's not too strong for UU)
OU Status: Yes (Used enough in OU to make OU list)
N/Y pokemon would enter or leave UU dependant on whether they make the OU list or not.
Then there would be a host of pokemon that might hold both status.
Tyranitar, Salamence, Heatran, Scizor, Zapdos, Gyarados . . . etc.:
BL Status: Yes (Too strong for UU)
OU Status: Yes (Used enough to make OU list)
Y/Y's are banned from UU for both reasons. Of course I'm sure this will include much weaker pokemon as well. We won't know which pokemon will truly have BL status until/unless they come down and we actually see them in "new UU" battle. Pokemon who have an OU label though can't battle in UU anyway though, so we will only check the ones that fall from OU obviously.
I agree completely with you Chou Toshio, I guess I may have phrased what I meant a little badly. When I said "not quite good enough for Overused" I meant simply that it is not used enough to be seriously considered in the Overused Metagame. In my eyes, the majority of the time, usage is a good indicator of of ability, but I must admit I oversaw the N/Y situation, and made it sound like BL and OU were a little too interchangable. Should a pokemon come down from OU it should should be "innocent until proven guilty".
I'm also interested to see if we do something similar to having an Overused of UU, so we could create a tier beneath UU for those who are not used enough to be UU, courtesy of Doug's statistics of course.
I'm also interested to see if we do something similar to having an Overused of UU, so we could create a tier beneath UU for those who are not used enough to be UU, courtesy of Doug's statistics of course.
- Status