The UU Viablity Rankings topic.

[flashbolt]

Excellent so if we limit it to 10 per category then my provisional Category A goes;
Venusaur
Moltres
Raikou
Froslass
Uxie
Registeel
Mismagius
Milotic
Kabutops (Rain)
Luddicolo (Rain)

Discuss...

The remaining 6 would go into Category B with 4 others, i think Ambipom should be one of them because it so dominates as a lead.

But i think we need to define "viability".

EDIT: whistle has beaten me to it. The problem is that that conversation could overwhelm what we are actually talking about. It seems very open and might have no easy conclusion. So far we have all trusted our "gut" instinct toward the viability of the pokemon, maybe wisdom of the crowd was a better way to do it.

Actually i think ludicolo is quite viable outside rain, not as a sweeper though. Flying, poison, bug aren't prevalent weaknesses.

 

[Delko]

In my opinion Registeel deserves a place in category B at the highest. Okay it has great defenses but Steelix as mentioned before does the same thing + more.

 

[PK Gaming]

I've skimmed the entire thread but haven't seen anyone come up with criteria for determining tiers. If we come up with these then we can say "top tier is an average of 9+" and "high tier is an average of 7-8", etc.

a few ideas based on the posts here

- does it fit into a wide range of teams?
- sweepers: how dangerous is it?
- sweepers: how reliably can it sweep (frailty, support needed, etc)?
- supporters: how much support does it give?
- supporters: how reliably can it supply this support?
- how well does it match up against other pokemon on the tier list (more of an aggregate than an individual metric because pokemon is 6v6)

there's some overlap and definitely stuff missing but it's an okay start I think.

That sounds like a great idea.
I saw a CAP topic talk about all of the OU pokemon and gave similar descriptions. When we get the rankings sorted I think we should strive for that.

 

[jamashawalker]

lol to speak on torterra...why are ppl only stating his rock polish set? sure it is his most offensive threat, but i found it to be rather difficult to use. Sword Dance/ Choice bandedTorterra is jsut as scary and hits extremely hard against stall teams and is probably stall teams greatest nemisis. I remember Thund's CB torterra absolutely wrecking teams...Defensive torterra is really annoying for alot of teams with leech seed. The difference between torterra and venasaur is torterra BEASTLY defenses. lol you'll be surprised at how many physial attacks torterra can take and dish back. Getting to the point, Torterra should be considered High tier at least, not top, BUT if he had alot more usage then you'll see he defintely belongs at top tier..

 

[Jikos]

I'd say Scyther goes straight to the Mid list. I've played hundreds of UU matches and I don't recall a single battle against one. It probably has been used against me in a few matches but I don't remember it at all, which means it probably wasn't enough of a threat for me to even remember. It's stats seem nice and everything but with Thunder Wave and Stealth Rock everywhere, and so many damn tanks and Steels (+2 Brick Break fails to OHKO Steelix/Registeel as long as they have 252HP ev's which is standard for both of them). Then it has to deal with Mismagius, Moltres, anything that's scarved, Swellow, Alakazam (who can switch in on SD and encore), Dugtrio, anything with sucker punch (which is incredibly common in UU), Ampibom, Technitop, Intimidate Hitmontop, Kabutops with or without rain... the list goes on. I don't think it's a coincidence that I've barely ever seen Scyther in UU.

 

[Random Pizzaman]

Thats why I dont think Swords Dance is Scythers best set. Choice Bang, imo, is much better since it'll hit incredibly strong off the bat with agreat speed, and CB U-turn crumbles teams over time without something that resists it.
That being said, Scyther is still probably Mid material.

 

[GMLW]

I've skimmed the entire thread but haven't seen anyone come up with criteria for determining tiers. If we come up with these then we can say "top tier is an average of 9+" and "high tier is an average of 7-8", etc.

a few ideas based on the posts here

- does it fit into a wide range of teams?
- sweepers: how dangerous is it?
- sweepers: how reliably can it sweep (frailty, support needed, etc)?
- supporters: how much support does it give?
- supporters: how reliably can it supply this support?
- how well does it match up against other pokemon on the tier list (more of an aggregate than an individual metric because pokemon is 6v6)

there's some overlap and definitely stuff missing but it's an okay start I think.

For things missing, you completely skipped walls. Sure, you could count walls as supporters, but what about ones that don't support the team, they just wall, e.g., Crotomb.

Also, this would be a perfect time to think about the Uber Characteristics. Just replace "easily" with "with good prediction" or "with enough support."


Also guys, remember that ranking=/=usage. If something is absolutely beastly, but isn't used often, it should still go in the higher ranking levels. The exception is if the reason they aren't used much is because of an extreme hindrance (I'm looking at you Slaking and Regigigas).

Speaking of which, I think Aggron at least deserves high tier, despite its low usage. Especially with Rock Polish, since Aggron has some extremely powerful attacks and an excellent 110 base attack to make up for its lack of attack boosting moves. Once Aggron gets in a Rock Polish, it's game over unless Head Smash misses.

 

[PK Gaming]

For things missing, you completely skipped walls. Sure, you could count walls as supporters, but what about ones that don't support the team, they just wall, e.g., Crotomb.

Also, this would be a perfect time to think about the Uber Characteristics. Just replace "easily" with "with good prediction" or "with enough support."


Also guys, remember that ranking=/=usage. If something is absolutely beastly, but isn't used often, it should still go in the higher ranking levels. The exception is if the reason they aren't used much is because of an extreme hindrance (I'm looking at you Slaking and Regigigas).

Speaking of which, I think Aggron at least deserves high tier, despite its low usage. Especially with Rock Polish, since Aggron has some extremely powerful attacks and an excellent 110 base attack to make up for its lack of attack boosting moves. Once Aggron gets in a Rock Polish, it's game over unless Head Smash misses.

I hate to be the one who states it. (he is in my dream team) but Aggron isn't that good in UU. Unfortunately for him, Steelix, Donphan, and Milotic ruin his assorted sets.

His typing really is awful. I find that when they "Switch into his numerous resistances" they really mean "switch into a Swellow because that's what my bulky of switchins are. A lot of pokemon can hurt Aggron due to his god awful Special defense, so even resisted Special hits hurt like hell.

Support wise, I find that he NEEDS Altaria/Claydol. Altaria and Aggron together is especially cool, resisting EVERY SINGLE TYPE save electric.

He's okay where he is.


PS: I will do a major rehaul of the original post and the tiering.

 

[GMLW]

I hate to be the one who states it. (he is in my dream team) but Aggron isn't that good in UU. Unfortunately for him, Steelix, Donphan, and Milotic ruin his assorted sets.

His typing really is awful. I find that when they "Switch into his numerous resistances" they really mean "switch into a Swellow because that's what my bulky of switchins are. A lot of pokemon can hurt Aggron due to his god awful Special defense, so even resisted Special hits hurt like hell.

Support wise, I find that he NEEDS Altaria/Claydol. Altaria and Aggron together is especially cool, resisting EVERY SINGLE TYPE save electric.

He's okay where he is.


PS: I will do a major rehaul of the original post and the tiering.

Rhyperior has much worse defensive typing than Aggron. They are both Rock-types, one of the worse defensive types in the game, but Steel is one of the best, compared to Ground also being a very bad defensive type. Rhyperior has better Attack and HP, but Aggron has MUCH better physical Defense, as well as the better Sp. Def of the two. The power difference between Stone Edge and Head Smash make up for Aggron's worse Attack. If Rhyperior is in high, I think Aggron should too since they are extremely similar.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Excellent so if we limit it to 10 per category then my provisional Category A goes;
Venusaur
Moltres
Raikou
Froslass
Uxie
Registeel
Mismagius
Milotic
Kabutops (Rain)
Luddicolo (Rain)

Discuss...

Arcanine MUST be on that list, probably over Ludicolo.

but Aggron has MUCH better physical Defense, as well as the better Sp. Def of the two.

Wrong. Assuming 4 / 0 spreads, Aggron's defense is only 1.4% better than Rhyperior's, whereas Rhyperior's special defense is 23.5% better than Aggron's. When considering defensive potential, both defensive stats and HP must be taken into account. Also I find Rhyperior is able to find safe switch-ins more regularly, as physical attackers are more likely to pack random Ground or Fighting attacks rather than Grass moves, and Solid Rock really helps with the former.

As far as attacking goes, STAB Earthquake + Megahorn off ~20% better Attack more than makes up for a ~20% weaker Rock STAB. They aren't that close for comparison at all really.

 

[Banedon]

I'm sorry but Swellow is definitely NOT top tier. It is a one-dimensional Pokemon with one viable set that makes it only fit on specific kinds of teams. And whilst it is incredibly threatening with the right team support, it does not do enough on its own merits to be deserving of the very highest status. For this reason it should be high, but not top IMO.

I don't agree. Swellow is a madly powerful physical sweeper - 140 base power Facade, a speed that makes it faster than everyone else, even a priority move. There are Pokemon it can't sweep through, but even against those it can use U-turn to buy his team momentum. It does die fast, though, and the 25% weakness to Stealth Rock doesn't help.

I don't see how Tangrowth is high tier but Chansey isn't. Torterra as high tier? Bit surprised on that one because I've usually not found him a problem, but I don't know for sure.

Altaria as high tier? This one I doubt a bit. My strongest memory of Altaria is my max Attack Adamant Life Orb Altaria actually getting the chance to Dragon Dance twice ... and then Outrage fails to OHKO a Nidoqueen, who promptly KO'ed back. What're the odds of being able to Dragon Dance twice? What about being able to Dragon Dance once and your opponent not switching in a Pokemon that can live a hit, but can still KO you back? As a defensive Pokemon, Altaria's 4x weakness to Ice is troubling, and its defenses aren't too stellar either. It could be that my experience with Nidoqueen biased me against Altaria, but I'd still want to see the reasoning.

Much appreciated if people can add bold tags to their Pokemon, makes it easier to keep track of them ^_^

 

[Pika25]

Speak of pikachu. If NU's are to be counted, Pika should be mid or low. He does have various sets, all revolving around his Light Ball (all-out attack, sub-punch, encore, agility or np) for base 90 speed, but he is quite frail (35/30/40) and LB doesn't serve as a sash. I am probably saying low.

 

[Diesel]

I don't agree. Swellow is a madly powerful physical sweeper - 140 base power Facade, a speed that makes it faster than everyone else, even a priority move. There are Pokemon it can't sweep through, but even against those it can use U-turn to buy his team momentum. It does die fast, though, and the 25% weakness to Stealth Rock doesn't help.

Add Toxic Orb damage and Brave Bird recoil and it won't be sticking around long. It's certainly very good, but if Stealth Rock gets up without being spun away its usefulness completely tanks, especially with its counters still present.

I don't see how Tangrowth is high tier but Chansey isn't. Torterra as high tier? Bit surprised on that one because I've usually not found him a problem, but I don't know for sure.

I agree here, I was curious about these decisions as well. I feel like I haven't seen a Tangrowth in months.

Altaria as high tier? This one I doubt a bit. My strongest memory of Altaria is my max Attack Adamant Life Orb Altaria actually getting the chance to Dragon Dance twice ... and then Outrage fails to OHKO a Nidoqueen, who promptly KO'ed back. What're the odds of being able to Dragon Dance twice? What about being able to Dragon Dance once and your opponent not switching in a Pokemon that can live a hit, but can still KO you back?

This isn't its best use. And it should be used in the late game since it doesn't have the raw power to rip through teams like the other dragons do.

As a defensive Pokemon, Altaria's 4x weakness to Ice is troubling, and its defenses aren't too stellar either. It could be that my experience with Nidoqueen biased me against Altaria, but I'd still want to see the reasoning.

I explained it on the last page.

Speak of pikachu. If NU's are to be counted, Pika should be mid or low. He does have various sets, all revolving around his Light Ball (all-out attack, sub-punch, encore, agility or np) for base 90 speed, but he is quite frail (35/30/40) and LB doesn't serve as a sash. I am probably saying low.

I feel like there might be a source of bias here, but I just can't quite put my finger on it.

 

[Esper]

If you're going to be tiering Pokemon, shouldn't there be some ground rules as to how you tier them? How about listing characteristics of what makes them X tier and do some sort of a scoring system. That would be something that's comparable to the monthly statistics and would give an overall consensus. Based on trends for each month, scores may fluctuate to combat those threats.

I don't post here much, but I do find this quite interesting. Thanks.

 

[Erazor]

I don't agree with Spiritomb in the Top. Yes, it's very good at walling, and rapes Froslass. But whenever I've used it/played against it, it always dies too fast, whether it's to Moltres, Blaziken, or Rain. High is the right place for it.

No one mentioned Rotom? I think it deserves a high tier at least, if not top. It makes an excellent Scarfer, Specs user, or Wall, or even a sweeper with Charge beam. It's arguably a better Specs user than Mismagius, who is definitely top tier.

 

[Pika25]

If diesel feels like I'm biased, then Pikachu should be bottom-tier along with Raichu. He is basically kill or be killed - the very definition of a glass cannon.

 

[Diesel]

If diesel feels like I'm biased, then Pikachu should be bottom-tier along with Raichu. He is basically kill or be killed - the very definition of a glass cannon.

I was just messing with you. :P But yea, it belongs at the bottom, as does Raichu.

 

[Zamiel]

Since it seems we're considering NU pokemon as well, another glass cannon that would probably fit into the bottom tier is Glaceon. Despite its great SpA and STAB its slow and has an awful defensive typing.

 

[ZandgaiaX]

I'd say Hariyama is either High or Mid. It's a great pokemon, having a great anti-lead set, able to sweep certain teams (Now cresselia's gone it gets even easier for the big guy). His CB or bulky sets aren't good, nor bad. Ye, definatly either High or Mid.

(Note: a few pokemon actually counter anti-lead hariyama: Moltres, Slowbro, Spiritomb, whilst having alot of one-time checks)

 

[SJCrew]

Whoa, whoa, what's this? Rhyperior for top, pronto! I've been using this guy on all of my teams since the Honch/Gallade era and I have to say, he's one of the few Pokemon I've seen within any metagame that requires you to be lucky in order to beat him. Screw Spikes support, with a Choice Band, all he needs is Stealth Rock to OHKO or 2HKO every wall in UU. Blaziken and Scyther don't have the same bulk or destructive potential and if they meet one of their counters, they're forced out. Added to that, Scyther is going to lose 50% of its health every time it comes in only to be walled to hell and back by Weezing, a Rock type, a Steel type, and many others. Rhyperior doesn't have to worry about this since he resists Stealth Rock and is most likely going to kill anything that comes in.

I've actually faced one other CB Rhyperior and getting past it was basically up to a coin flip, lol.

"Please use Stone Edge, please use Stone Edge..."
*switches Registeel into EQ*
"FFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUU-"

 

[Scoopapa]

Rhyperior has much worse defensive typing than Aggron. They are both Rock-types, one of the worse defensive types in the game, but Steel is one of the best, compared to Ground also being a very bad defensive type. Rhyperior has better Attack and HP, but Aggron has MUCH better physical Defense, as well as the better Sp. Def of the two. The power difference between Stone Edge and Head Smash make up for Aggron's worse Attack. If Rhyperior is in high, I think Aggron should too since they are extremely similar.

Rhyperior doesn't die to anything sporting Earthquake or Low Kick, Brick Break, or Close Combat, though. This lets him switch into and threaten a lot of things that Aggron can't. Also, it can 1v1 a lot of Fighting-types, thanks to Solid Rock reducing the damage of their attacks. Aggron certainly works, but it's much harder to use in a defensive role. I guess its advantage is that the things it walls, it really, really, walls.

 

[SJCrew]

I guess its advantage is that the things it walls, it really, really, walls.

I think that's limited to all of Swellow, Clefable, and Uxie, but Clefable and Uxie often find other ways to be huge pains in the ass to stuff they can't kill.

 

[Darkvirus]

swellow = top teir UU poke due to speed, guts and the ability to keep alot of pokes in cheak and OHKO them with a combo of brave bird and farcade

 

[GMLW]

Whoa, whoa, what's this? Rhyperior for top, pronto! I've been using this guy on all of my teams since the Honch/Gallade era and I have to say, he's one of the few Pokemon I've seen within any metagame that requires you to be lucky in order to beat him. Screw Spikes support, with a Choice Band, all he needs is Stealth Rock to OHKO or 2HKO every wall in UU. Blaziken and Scyther don't have the same bulk or destructive potential and if they meet one of their counters, they're forced out. Added to that, Scyther is going to lose 50% of its health every time it comes in only to be walled to hell and back by Weezing, a Rock type, a Steel type, and many others. Rhyperior doesn't have to worry about this since he resists Stealth Rock and is most likely going to kill anything that comes in.

I've actually faced one other CB Rhyperior and getting past it was basically up to a coin flip, lol.

"Please use Stone Edge, please use Stone Edge..."
*switches Registeel into EQ*
"FFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUU-"

You need luck to switch into it, true. But with piss-poor speed and piss-poor Sp. Def, not even Solid Rock will save it from a STAB special water or grass move.

 

[Delko]

swellow = top teir UU poke due to speed, guts and the ability to keep alot of pokes in cheak and OHKO them with a combo of brave bird and farcade

I'm sorry but Swellow is definitely NOT top tier. It is a one-dimensional Pokemon with one viable set that makes it only fit on specific kinds of teams. And whilst it is incredibly threatening with the right team support, it does not do enough on its own merits to be deserving of the very highest status. For this reason it should be high, but not top IMO.