Staraptor has 100 Base Speed. Even with 0 Speed EVs, a Jolly nature nets it 259 speed (and this set uses a Jolly Nature), far more than Adamant T-Tar's 221. Where do you get off thinking Tyranitar outspeeds a Jolly Staraptor?
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Time to discuss a concoction named Physical Bulk Staraptor
- Thread starter Bologo
- Start date
I don't really like it. Sure, you COULD be featherdancing that CBTar... but if it's foolish enough to stay in, why not rip it apart with your Close Combat?
Also, this set does NOT beat DD Gyara head-to-head. Here's how it works out:
You sent in Staraptor!
Staraptor's Intimidate lowered Gyarados's attack!
Gyarados used Dragon Dance!
Attack and Speed rose!
Now Gyarados outspeeds you, Taunts so you can't Roost or Featherdance, then Dragon Dances. Of course, this is a best-case (or worst depending oin which perspective) scenario, so let's say you have better predicting skills.
You switched in Staraptor!
Intimidate!
Gyarados used Earthquake!
It doesn't effect Staraptor...
---
Staraptor used Featherdance!
Gyarados used Taunt!
---
Staraptor used Brave Bird!
Gyarados used Dragon Dance!
---
Gyarados used Dragon Dance!
Staraptor used Brave Bird!
---
Gyarados used Dragon Dance!
Staraptor used Brave Bird!
Now Gyarados has neutral Attack and +3 Speed, and you will remain Taunted unless you are lucky. Of course, Staraptor could just U-Turn to your counter after being Taunted, but I don't see how that's any different from siwtching to your counter in the first place.
Also, this set does NOT beat DD Gyara head-to-head. Here's how it works out:
You sent in Staraptor!
Staraptor's Intimidate lowered Gyarados's attack!
Gyarados used Dragon Dance!
Attack and Speed rose!
Now Gyarados outspeeds you, Taunts so you can't Roost or Featherdance, then Dragon Dances. Of course, this is a best-case (or worst depending oin which perspective) scenario, so let's say you have better predicting skills.
You switched in Staraptor!
Intimidate!
Gyarados used Earthquake!
It doesn't effect Staraptor...
---
Staraptor used Featherdance!
Gyarados used Taunt!
---
Staraptor used Brave Bird!
Gyarados used Dragon Dance!
---
Gyarados used Dragon Dance!
Staraptor used Brave Bird!
---
Gyarados used Dragon Dance!
Staraptor used Brave Bird!
Now Gyarados has neutral Attack and +3 Speed, and you will remain Taunted unless you are lucky. Of course, Staraptor could just U-Turn to your counter after being Taunted, but I don't see how that's any different from siwtching to your counter in the first place.
blaziken, the problem with that argument is that unless this goes standard, (which it very well may, being on the metagame influence that smogon has become) the average gyrados isn't going to taunt a usually choice banded/life orbed staraptor. Your opponent might predict a switch to a wall and taunt, but that seems to be the only reason a gyrados would taunt a staraptor.
Nardd, it actually changes very little if we assume the standard environment.
You switched in Staraptor!
Intimidate!
Gyarados used Earthquake!
It doesn't effect Staraptor...
---
Staraptor used Featherdance!
Gyarados used Dragon Dance!
---
Gyarados used Taunt!
Staraptor can't use FeatherDance after the Taunt!
--------------
Now, if Gyarados smacks Staraptor with a Stone Edge with -3 Atk... it does 33% damage. However, what needs to be said is that Stone Edge criticals often, making FeatherDance useless. I personally wouldn't go for it and would rather just switch out straight and get pwned with the U-Turn.
You switched in Staraptor!
Intimidate!
Gyarados used Earthquake!
It doesn't effect Staraptor...
---
Staraptor used Featherdance!
Gyarados used Dragon Dance!
---
Gyarados used Taunt!
Staraptor can't use FeatherDance after the Taunt!
--------------
Now, if Gyarados smacks Staraptor with a Stone Edge with -3 Atk... it does 33% damage. However, what needs to be said is that Stone Edge criticals often, making FeatherDance useless. I personally wouldn't go for it and would rather just switch out straight and get pwned with the U-Turn.
Right, because that Gyarados is expecting a Staraptor at full HP to Roost or Featherdance, thus using Taunt.
If that was aimed towards my statement of "Featherdance always beats Dragon Dance head to head." Well, just read it. I said Dragon Dance, not Taunting Bulkydos. =/
If that was aimed towards my statement of "Featherdance always beats Dragon Dance head to head." Well, just read it. I said Dragon Dance, not Taunting Bulkydos. =/
The Gyarados in Dragontamer's example just used Dragon Dance.
If there is any other qualification for being a Dragon Dance Gyarados, I am not aware of it.
If this set doesn't beat a bulky Dragon Dance/Taunt Gyarados, it effectively cannot beat nearly any Gyarados, as it's difficult to tell a not Taunting Gyarados from a Taunting one. Thus, if you try to switch Staraptor in, you're just betting that your opponent's Gyarados isn't a Taunter. And it's not even a smart bet - your opponent stands to gain more from it (a dead Staraptor and +3 speed Gyarados) than you do (an injured Gyarados forced to switch out).
Haha gosh, I didn't expect my Staraptor thread to actually be alive still! :P Well, I suppose I might as well reply to it.
Come to think of it, I should have probably made a thread about bulky intimidate users, so that Luxray and Mawile and such could get a try too, but heh oh well.
Yeah, this guy definitely does need a spinner available to be useful, but it does force a lot of switches from things that would normally shit their pants from seeing Staraptor, but then that's the beauty of U-Turn allowing you to see their switch.
Against Gyarados, it does best if Gyarados is actually switching in, but I suppose that doesn't happen much since it usually tries to pull off a big sweep right at the beginning, but yeah, most Gyarados wouldn't stay in against Staraptor since they'd most likely get 2HKOed or so by the standard CBRaptor's Brave Bird.
I guess I agree that a +spd nature is best though.
You hit it right on the button. I wasn't really trying to introduce a new set, but just the fact that this bird's got more defense than a wet noodle.
Come to think of it, I should have probably made a thread about bulky intimidate users, so that Luxray and Mawile and such could get a try too, but heh oh well.
Yeah, this guy definitely does need a spinner available to be useful, but it does force a lot of switches from things that would normally shit their pants from seeing Staraptor, but then that's the beauty of U-Turn allowing you to see their switch.
Against Gyarados, it does best if Gyarados is actually switching in, but I suppose that doesn't happen much since it usually tries to pull off a big sweep right at the beginning, but yeah, most Gyarados wouldn't stay in against Staraptor since they'd most likely get 2HKOed or so by the standard CBRaptor's Brave Bird.
I guess I agree that a +spd nature is best though.
Exactly. I find Staraptor a lot less scary with the loss of, say, CC. Ttar commonly carries Tbolt or Ice Beam, iirc? You also have to factor in that Gyara has Intimidate as well. Sure, you can U-Turn out, but when Bulkydos realizes you can't do anything to him, he'll Taunt and DD as the other people have suggested. What makes Staraptor is its coverage with a nice LO set, personally.
Well the point has been made that Gyarados probably would Taunt, why wouldn't it just switch out to a counter? Staraptor's not really going to set up on the switch. Are people going to switch to a physical Staraptor counter? Because if they're not, then they switch in a special-based counter, take a featherdance, and either scare Staraptor away or kill it.
In that case. U-Turn will always allow you to perfectly counter whatever they have, because you always get to decide which pokemon to bring in _after_ their pokemon came in. Even if you U-Turn on the turn that they switch out.
Wouldn't it play out like this?
You switched in Staraptor!
Intimidate!
Gyarados used Earthquake!
It doesn't effect Staraptor...
---
Trainer switched in Generic Staraptor Counter!
Staraptor used Featherdance!
---
Staraptor used U-turn!
Counter used move that would've been SE on Staraptor, but it hits the guy that got U-turned in instead!
---
Since Staraptor's probably going to be faster than a generic counter for it, U-turn won't allow anything to get in without getting hit...
You switched in Staraptor!
Intimidate!
Gyarados used Earthquake!
It doesn't effect Staraptor...
---
Trainer switched in Generic Staraptor Counter!
Staraptor used Featherdance!
---
Staraptor used U-turn!
Counter used move that would've been SE on Staraptor, but it hits the guy that got U-turned in instead!
---
Since Staraptor's probably going to be faster than a generic counter for it, U-turn won't allow anything to get in without getting hit...
Yes, it would play out like that; my point was that there is no real advantage to that, because U-turn is like switching, only after hitting Generic Counter with a 70 BP non-STAB attack. In return, your counter gets hit with an attack also.
I just fail to see the advantage.
I just fail to see the advantage.
The advantage of U-Turn is being able to see what they send in. If you bring in Staraptor against a Gyarados, you might predict that they'll bring in Weezing, thus you'd bring in Azelf, but they might predict that and send in Spiritomb. If you U-Turn while Gyarados switches, you'll see that they send in Spiritomb and send in Heracross.
Heh, yes Intimidate is an amazing trait and it's the only reason that Gyara can actually be bulky.
I was actually thinking that if someone is using a defensive Staraptor that it NEEDS to use the advantages such as U-Turn and Featherdance so that it doesn't get completely outclassed by defensive Salamence, since Salamence has better resistances, better defenses, more attack and the same speed.
This doesn't mean that Staraptor is completely outclassed, so long as you use U-Turn and Featherdance and don't resort to Toxic.
Now that I think about it, it seems that Salamence is a lot better at it since it can last through special attacks too...
But hey, another thing that Staraptor has over Salamence is no 4x weakness! Just saying that this is a viable option for Raptor after all. Staraptor still stands as the best Featherdancer there since it can force switches most efficiently with Intimidate IMO.
I was actually thinking that if someone is using a defensive Staraptor that it NEEDS to use the advantages such as U-Turn and Featherdance so that it doesn't get completely outclassed by defensive Salamence, since Salamence has better resistances, better defenses, more attack and the same speed.
This doesn't mean that Staraptor is completely outclassed, so long as you use U-Turn and Featherdance and don't resort to Toxic.
Now that I think about it, it seems that Salamence is a lot better at it since it can last through special attacks too...
But hey, another thing that Staraptor has over Salamence is no 4x weakness! Just saying that this is a viable option for Raptor after all. Staraptor still stands as the best Featherdancer there since it can force switches most efficiently with Intimidate IMO.
Pidgeot actually does this a little better. This Staraptor set actually inspired me to make it.
Observe:
Staraptor defenses: 85/70/50
Pidgeot defenses: 83/75/70
Only a little bit less HP, but more defense and much more SD.
Moreover, Pidgeot isn't attack reliant, it can use Air Slash and Hidden Power. Air Slash lets it flinch foes for another round of Lefties recovery and HP can be tailored (Ground or Fighting) to deal with Steel types. Pidgeot only has Base 70 SA, so we're not talking huge damage here, but enough to threaten foes.
Granted Pidgeot doesn't get Intimidate, but since Staraptor tends to force switches most foes won't be dealing with Intimdate anyway.
Observe:
Staraptor defenses: 85/70/50
Pidgeot defenses: 83/75/70
Only a little bit less HP, but more defense and much more SD.
Moreover, Pidgeot isn't attack reliant, it can use Air Slash and Hidden Power. Air Slash lets it flinch foes for another round of Lefties recovery and HP can be tailored (Ground or Fighting) to deal with Steel types. Pidgeot only has Base 70 SA, so we're not talking huge damage here, but enough to threaten foes.
Granted Pidgeot doesn't get Intimidate, but since Staraptor tends to force switches most foes won't be dealing with Intimdate anyway.
Intimidate is the trump card for this set. Otherwise it's very, very frail. You NEED Intimidate to survive Heracross Close Combat, Gyarados Stone Edge, and the like.
You need to U-Turn on the switch for this set to be most effective. And if they aren't switching because you aren't intimidating them... then you aren't doing your job >_>
One of the problems I'm forseeing is the fact that many of these potential switchins could very well be holding a CB.
Coming in on a CBTar's (or CB Rhyperior's) SE makes that a guaranteed OHKO even with these EVs, which is no good at all. Coming in on a either of their EQ still doesn't tell you that you're up against a CB variant because you can't see the damage so can't tell if it's CB, DD or anything else. If it happens to be CB, your Featherdance is likely to be wasted as it is switching anyway.
Similarly coming in a Weavile with any kind of boosting item is still no good (regardless of whether it be CB, LO or Expert Belt) as Ice Punch is now a 2HKO and he is faster. Infernape is a similarly extremely high risk possibility as if it NPs you're completely stuffed.
The thing is, when it works it's not particularly bad. The problem as far as I'm concerned is that when it doesn't work, it tends to fail more catastrophically than more traditional options.
If your opp is CBTar then when you predict right, you're just another CBTar counter who was successfully predicted EQ. Your payoff is good but no better than anyone else's. If you come in on SE though then you have just lost a poke, whereas many other CBTar counters are more forgiving of mispredictions. And in a long battle against a decent opponent, you will have to make so many predictions that many of them are bound to be wrong.
That's one example but it doesn't get much better whether you come in on Boah (shudder), CBRhyperior's SE, Rhyperior as it Subs, SD Outrage Chomp as it SDs, SD Weavile as it SDs, SD Infernape as it SDs, Mixape as it NPs, MoPcross as it Subs..
I guess it's good if you like living life on the edge and allowing yourself no room for misprediction. But there are so many other options that give you just as much benefit when you get it right, with much lower risk for getting it wrong..
Coming in on a CBTar's (or CB Rhyperior's) SE makes that a guaranteed OHKO even with these EVs, which is no good at all. Coming in on a either of their EQ still doesn't tell you that you're up against a CB variant because you can't see the damage so can't tell if it's CB, DD or anything else. If it happens to be CB, your Featherdance is likely to be wasted as it is switching anyway.
Similarly coming in a Weavile with any kind of boosting item is still no good (regardless of whether it be CB, LO or Expert Belt) as Ice Punch is now a 2HKO and he is faster. Infernape is a similarly extremely high risk possibility as if it NPs you're completely stuffed.
The thing is, when it works it's not particularly bad. The problem as far as I'm concerned is that when it doesn't work, it tends to fail more catastrophically than more traditional options.
If your opp is CBTar then when you predict right, you're just another CBTar counter who was successfully predicted EQ. Your payoff is good but no better than anyone else's. If you come in on SE though then you have just lost a poke, whereas many other CBTar counters are more forgiving of mispredictions. And in a long battle against a decent opponent, you will have to make so many predictions that many of them are bound to be wrong.
That's one example but it doesn't get much better whether you come in on Boah (shudder), CBRhyperior's SE, Rhyperior as it Subs, SD Outrage Chomp as it SDs, SD Weavile as it SDs, SD Infernape as it SDs, Mixape as it NPs, MoPcross as it Subs..
I guess it's good if you like living life on the edge and allowing yourself no room for misprediction. But there are so many other options that give you just as much benefit when you get it right, with much lower risk for getting it wrong..
Of you could stay in because Thunderbolt and Ice Beam don't own Pidgeot like they do Staraptor (After Roost or no). If you're just using Intimdate + U-Turn, you might as well forget the bulky set and just use CB Raptor since it scouts and does decent damage. People underestimate Pidgeot and forget it can break 300 speed, so they usually end up keeping things in to be Featherdanced. Once they realize they can't take out Pidgeot they switch, and that is when you predict and nail the new switchin with Featherdance.
I mean, the premise of this set seems to be to switch in to powerful physical attacks and then Featherdance and U-Turn out. Thats all well and good, but if your opponent switchens in a special attacking pokemon or a mixed pokemon with special attacks, Staraptor is still SOL. 50 SDef is quite awful. I've been using the Pidgeot set in UU and Lucario Aura Sphere did 52% to Pidgeot. Staraptor would always be 2HKO'd. Naturally you can't roost on Aura Sphere in that case, but Air Slash took out over half of Lucario's HP so it did fine. Air Slash helps Pidgeot quite a bit more than Aerial Ace/Brave Bird since it isn't affected by opposing Intimidates and it has more power than AA and no recoil like Brave Bird.
Noctowl can also do these things and has more special durability, but its physical defense is awful.
Now I made the Pidgeot set for UU based on these to be sure, since it says Hello to starting fighters, but it still has quite a bit of merit since it is special based and the Steel walss in UU don't stop it, and really hate Featherdance.