ToxicFlinch Team

[Ranigad]

Introduction​

The idea of a Toxic-Flinch team began with my Jirachi and Togekiss. They were two of the main pokemon that I had trained after the elite four (besides my Raichu) and I had planned to use them at the frontier (but apparently Jirachi isn't allowed =\ ). While training them in my game, I had been introduced to and began playing in the competitive metagame with shoddy and now PO. I found that I like stalled based teams much better than offensive ones. I thought to myself, what If I was able to poison my opponent's pokemon, and then flinch them to allow the poison to rack up damage? Thus, my toxic flinch team was born. Please keep in mind while you're rating this that this team is an ongoing project. I'm trying to create a team for my SoulSilver game that can fare well competitively while maintaining the integrity of the toxic-flinch ideals (I'm thinking about making an offensive team as well but that's not what this RMT is about). I've been testing this on PO in order to make sure that it's a legit team before trying to emulate it on my game, however it's been a bit shaky in its success.

Before I begin, I'd like to let raters know that this is ingame. Therefore, It will be difficult for me to get correctly natured or hidden powered legendaries. Please do not suggest any legendaries unless you firmly believe that they will make my team 100x better =P.

Team Building Process
​

This team began with two pokemon known for their abuse of the flinchhax, Togekiss and Jirachi.

I needed toxic spikes as well, and since I already had a specially defensive forretress lying around in my PC, I decided that forretress would be my spiker (as well as spinner, although I don't encounter entry hazards too much in real life).

Out of ideas for pokemon, I decided to stick my favorite pokemon, Raichu, on this team. It was already at level 100 so I thought, might as well!

I decided that my pokemon didn't have enough recovery moves, so I needed a wish passer. At first I thought about Blissey, but after raising one to level 58 or so, I found out that the rare wish Blissey was only passed out at an event a while ago. I then turned to another common wish passer to replace Blissey, Vaporeon. It also took care of my double fire weakness.

The only other two options to me at the time was a Hardy natured, not-ev-trained feraligatr, or a useless Blissey. I opted for Blissey in order to set up my stealth rocks (I knew I was going to replace her as soon as I found a solution).

After a battle with a friend, I got 6-0'd by a calm mind raikou and I realized that I had no real safe switch in for electric type moves (and no, Blissey couldn't counter it because seismic toss cannot be learned in SS either o3o). I immediately sought out a ground type to replace Blissey (I thought about Jolteon for a while too) and I instantly thought of one of my more liked 3rd gen ground types, Flygon.

Raichu wasn't really cutting it (T_T). It couldn't switch into anything and the one turn it needed to set up was really detrimental. I decided to stick one of my other liked pokemon here for it. Enter Lanturn! Gives me another nice electric resist as well as another water and fire resist.

After further testing, I have come to the conclusion that forretress's ability to spike, toxic spike, hit ghost pokemon, AND rapid spin isn't good enough to offset the fact that opponent's just use forretress to set up on. Therefore, I have added Tentacruel as my new toxic spiker/rapid spinner.

Current Team

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Time To Scrutinize​

Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EV: 4 Hp? / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly [+Spe/-SpA]
- Stealth Rock
- Trick
- Iron Head
- Fire Punch

So from the first jirachi event, I ended up getting a Jolly Jirachi. At the time, it didn't mean much, but after my introduction to the competitive scene, I was overjoyed to find that my Jirachi had a nature that could actually work with a set! After some experimentation with different choice scarf sets, I eventually decided to set Jirachi as my lead (since none of my other pokes could set up rocks). I'm still working on making this set, my Jirachi has been EV trained. Most of the time, I set up rocks and then switch out in order to allow my jirachi to come back later and outspeed-flinch the opponent to death. Fire punch is for steel coverage, however I've found that the main steels that it goes against (Skarmory and Metagross) aren't even 2hko'd by Fire Punch, so I'm open for suggestions here. I have also been contemplating moving Jirachi out of the lead slot and replacing Lanturn.

Togekiss @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EV: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid [+Spe/-Atk]
- Air Slash
- Aura Sphere
- Roost
- Trick

Here's the second part of my flincher duo. I'm actually not sure about what EVs my Togekiss is running, I'm going to reset them with berries and re-EV train them though. I originally did not run a choice scarf set, however I found that Togekiss can't outspeed ANYTHING. I added in roost over the recommended Fire Blast because I needed a recovery for kiss due to the SR accumulation as well as after I tricked away my choice scarf. Basically comes in and slashes/roosts my opponents to death. Not much to say here. I'm looking about the possibility of running a more bulky set, not sure though.

Tentacruel @ Leftovers
Ability: Liquid Ooze
EV: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 SpD
Nature: Careful [+SpD/-SpA]
- Toxic Spikes
- Rapid Spin
- Surf
- Payback

Replacement for the setup prone forretress. Comes in on a resisted attack (Tentacruel has so many more than forretress =D) and either toxic spikes or rapid spins. I ran careful because I was interested in having payback on tentacruel for dusknoir/gengar. Rotom-A could be a problem since I wouldn't be able to payback unless I predicted. The loss of Spikes is a bit saddening, but I think that having a bulkier pokemon with more resistances actually gives me more opportunities to set up the toxic spikes.

Lanturn @ Leftovers
Ability: Volt Absorb
EV: 52 Hp / 252 SpA / 148 SpD / 56 Spe
Nature: Modest [+SpA/-Atk]
- Substitute
- Charge Beam
- Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump

My replacement to my trusty Raichu (T_T). Lanturn offers me more turns to stall out my opponent by being able to switch into an electric type attack for free as well as resisting water and fire type moves. The parafusion set doesn't really work here since toxic will be prevalent on my opponent's team, however I do wish that Lanturn was more bulky. I have caught many unsuspecting people on PO with this set by subbing on the switch in. Often times, they bring in a flygon which is immediately KO'd by an ice beam. I am willing to replace Lanturn or run a different set since I haven't actually trained my chin chou yet (EV trained but it's at level 15 or something).

Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EV: 188 Hp / 252 Def / 68 SpD
Nature: Bold [+Def/-Atk]
- Wish
- Protect
- Roar
- Hp Electric

This is my switch in for most physical, water, and fire type moves. Vaporeon is actually the glue that binds my team together. She is the one that spends the most time on the front lines taking hits and stalling out my opponent and I'm deeply grateful for the role she plays on this team. Vaporeon also allows me to heal a fellow teammate on a good prediction. She runs Roar because I was lacking a phazer and there are many pokemon that can set up on a number of my pokemon. I wouldn't mind another phazer on my team. Hp Electric was run over Surf since on PO I found that most of the opponents that Vaporeon was stalling were water types so naturally I needed to counter them. Vaporeon is also my gyarados counter even though most of my friends don't have a gyarados xD.

Flygon @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EV: 252 Hp / 176 Def / 80 Spe
Nature: Jolly [+Spe/-SpA]
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
- Roost
- Toxic

My switch in for ground type attacks, Flygon is actually able to take a decent amount of hits. I actually deviated from the smogon set here. Since I found that Fire Blast didn't do much, I changed to the Stab Dragon Claw and adjusted the nature for my attack types. On PO, I fake a choice set until I get the opportunity to toxic an important switch-in of theirs. I'm open to set and pokemon changes here since I have yet to EV or EXP train my trapinch.

Immediately Available Pokemon​

Here I will list pokemon that I can substitute at any time. These are NOT the ONLY pokemon that may be suggested, however they are the easiest changes to make.

Raichu @ Magnet
Ability: Static
EV: 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid [+Spe/-Atk]
Nasty Plot
Thunderbolt
Focus Blast
Hidden Power Ice

Forretress @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EV: 252 Hp / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Nature: Can't remember at the moment
- Toxic Spikes
- Spikes
- Payback
- Rapid Spin


Here's my toxic set up. Comes in on a resisted attack or after one of my scarfers tricks their scarf away and proceeds to set up Toxic Spikes. I usually get one layer in and then come back later for another. Forretress was actually sitting around in my box when I was making this team so I was glad to not have to train another pokemon o3o. I am considering getting a defensive forretress, however, since it'll never really switch into a Special attack? Also, its nature is one of the two given on the smogon set, can't remember which at the moment. If I can get spikes in too, I die of happiness.

Summary​

I came to the Smogon RMT forums in order to try and improve my mediocre team. It has been suffering from a 50% win percentage. I think the problems is that it relies too much on a core of pokemon and fails when one of the pokemon are defeated. Also, the lack of recovery on specific pokemon is apparently. Another point is that many of pokemon are just begging to be set up on, which is an issue that needs to be solved. Please make all the suggestions you want, but I ask that all changes keep the integrity of the toxic-flinch idea. Jirachi and Togekiss are probably staying no matter what, other than that, please suggest away!


- Still considering whether to run a bulky encore set on Togekiss
- Hp Electric to surf on vaporeon?
- Fireblast/no scarf togekiss?

Threatlist​

- Right now is a huge issue. Sweeps through most, if not all my pokemon. I have issues since none of my pokemon can absorb the sleep well and then break through its sub without sustaining a lot of damage. Currently I send one of my water types to absorb the sleep and then switch into either jirachi w/ fire punch or togekiss w/ airslash to break the impending sub =\. Usually they faint and I have to go to the other... Any suggestions on this would be nice.

 

[garchompnoubber]

UMMM!! I like the (o3o) well..ill give you an advice. I would use laturn as lead...noone expecting it ,sub+3 atks, it can kill the other leads..thought 1st use sub lol else aerodactyl or gyarados can earthquake it T.T but they die of an ice beam and a thunderbolt, i mean you can actually mess up the strategy of your oponent by killing the lead. Thats what i do, thought many leads have focus sash. And take scarf out of jirachi..it'll just lay Stealth Rock and run? cmon make it fight + +! put life orb instead. But Overall is good. :) also...take trick out and add U-tun o,o if not, let it with trick. I dont like usin choice items cuz the moveset of the pokemon MUST be physical. So yea you get my point T.T If I had my ds... T__T!

 

[Ranigad]

UMMM!! I like the (o3o) well..ill give you an advice. I would use laturn as lead...noone expecting it ,sub+3 atks, it can kill the other leads..thought 1st use sub lol else aerodactyl or gyarados can earthquake it T.T but they die of an ice beam and a thunderbolt, i mean you can actually mess up the strategy of your oponent by killing the lead. Thats what i do, thought many leads have focus sash. And take scarf out of jirachi..it'll just lay Stealth Rock and run? cmon make it fight + +! put life orb instead. But Overall is good. :) also...take trick out and add U-tun o,o if not, let it with trick. I dont like usin choice items cuz the moveset of the pokemon MUST be physical. So yea you get my point T.T If I had my ds... T__T!

Hey, appreciate the comment. Thanks for the suggestion of moving Lanturn to the lead slot, however I'd rather stealth rocks up than have my lanturn with a sub up. The lead's role is to either set up stealth rocks or prevent the opponent from doing so, and my lanturn wouldn't be able to do either. I'll try it out for a while and see how it works out, however I don't see it being a permanent change xD. I actually don't have a life orb on my SS =\. I'm just following the lead set on smogon. I'd rather not have U-turn over trick. Sometimes I start the battle by tricking my opponent the scarf, allowing me to attack or use stealth rocks so that solves the issue of choice =D. Choice items don't have to be physical, it really depends on the item. For example my togekiss isn't a physical attacker o3o.

Once again, thanks for the advice. I'll take some into consideration! Muchas Gracias Senior!

 

[tomtom5858]

Hilarious team :D

This team looks like one of the most annoying teams I've ever seen! I think that you should remove Trick from 'kiss, and give lefties instead, as it is the Ho-oh of OU: it takes hits like a planet, and hits like one too.
Otherwise, your team looks great!

 

[Ranigad]

This team looks like one of the most annoying teams I've ever seen! I think that you should remove Trick from 'kiss, and give lefties instead, as it is the Ho-oh of OU: it takes hits like a planet, and hits like one too.
Otherwise, your team looks great!

Well I did try Togekiss without scarf, however it just isn't fast enough to out-pace some of the pokemon in the metagame, and flinch only works if it outspeeds. =\

>competitive

I do believe this is in the wrong section.

Well this is competetive? I am battling with it after all, both in real life and on PO. I posted it here because I'm trying to get suggestions for improvements on my competitive team? o3o

 

[Xav]

I would suggest using this set over your current togekiss:

Togekiss @Leftovers
Calm 252 HP/4 Def/252 SpD
-Air Slash
-Roost
-Tunderwave/Nasty Plot
-Aura Sphere/Nasty Plot

This is bulky as a mofo and with thunderwave and air slash ragequits will be plenty. Roost for recovery and Aura Sphere for coverage on steels etc. Nasty Plot can be used to boost up and potentially sweep.

 

[Ranigad]

I would suggest using this set over your current togekiss:

Togekiss @Leftovers
Calm 252 HP/4 Def/252 SpD
-Air Slash
-Roost
-Tunderwave/Nasty Plot
-Aura Sphere/Nasty Plot

This is bulky as a mofo and with thunderwave and air slash ragequits will be plenty. Roost for recovery and Aura Sphere for coverage on steels etc. Nasty Plot can be used to boost up and potentially sweep.

The problem again is speed o3o Since i'll be spreading poison, I won't be able to t-wave anybody. That's the whole reason I ran the scarf set. Thanks for the input though xD.

o3o I wanna play against you..sux that i have to use my sister's pink ds -.-' T.T and btw whats Po? lol and yea lay rocks then U-turn to laturn! take trick out boy! xDDD o3o!

PO is pokemon online. It's an online simulator where you can make a team and battle other people with it without actually having the pokemon.

 

[bubbly]

Look, Lanturn can't lead ever, don't even suggest it (whoever did).

Major suggestion, run a supporter set on Togekiss with Encore. This creates an unbelievable amount of annoyance for your opponent since every decent player will switch after being Encored (for fear of being set up on). Meaning, with Toxic you can basically just switch all day between Lanturn and Togekiss running between Encore and Confuse Ray (see below).

For Lanturn, could you run a set with the same EV's and nature (Calm I think?) as the ParaFusion set, but then run Confuse Ray / Thunderbolt / Icebeam / Heal Bell, since your team could feasibly have a LOT of problems with well played status teams..?

Try these changes out, I'm sure they will help

 

[Smith]

Alright hey I got your message, nice idea. I'll try to keep in mind in-game limitations and not change any natures or members, although you could probably stand a few. I'll mostly just attempt to optimize some sets on your Pokemon.

Vaporeon, honestly looks pretty stupid. You totally lack a STAB move, and hidden power electric and roar both fill the same niche of countering things like Gyarados, Suicune etc. Since you have spikes and spikes+roar is awesome, please replace hidden Power electric for surf, to actually be able to pose a reasonable threat to things like Heatran and Infernape, as well as basically anything else that can just stall you out.

Togekiss also needs a set change, yes I know his speed isn't amazing but that set will get you nowhere. You can hardly revenge anything and you have roost! On a choice set! Even if you really think you need scarf is necessary, you can't have roost on there. You might think, "Well I just trick away the scarf and then I can roost", but that brings us back to the idea of why are you using scarf togekiss. You either need to run fire blast as suggested or run a scarf-less set.

That's all the advice I have, hope this helps.

 

[Ranigad]

Alright hey I got your message, nice idea. I'll try to keep in mind in-game limitations and not change any natures or members, although you could probably stand a few. I'll mostly just attempt to optimize some sets on your Pokemon.

Vaporeon, honestly looks pretty stupid. You totally lack a STAB move, and hidden power electric and roar both fill the same niche of countering things like Gyarados, Suicune etc. Since you have spikes and spikes+roar is awesome, please replace hidden Power electric for surf, to actually be able to pose a reasonable threat to things like Heatran and Infernape, as well as basically anything else that can just stall you out.

Togekiss also needs a set change, yes I know his speed isn't amazing but that set will get you nowhere. You can hardly revenge anything and you have roost! On a choice set! Even if you really think you need scarf is necessary, you can't have roost on there. You might think, "Well I just trick away the scarf and then I can roost", but that brings us back to the idea of why are you using scarf togekiss. You either need to run fire blast as suggested or run a scarf-less set.

That's all the advice I have, hope this helps.

Does vaporeon really fail? ._. most of the time I switch vaporeon on water types and so it's logical for me to run HP electric right? It's sorta helped ingames... I'll test vaporeon with surf instead.

I took out forretress and replaced it with tentacruel, so no more spikes. Any comments on that?

Togekiss is mean to either flinch the opponent to death while racking up toxic damage, or stall a toxic'd pokemon with roost. I actually like roost on togekiss since I can sometimes switch it into a pokemon it walls and just roost away until it switches out. The move I'm actually looking to replace is Aura Sphere, it doesn't do anything o3o. The only time I really trick away my togekiss's scarf is in the endgame where I need to cripple my opponent's pokemon and/or make it more predictable. By the end game, I need roost for stalling purposes o3o. I did run fire blast before, but I found that pokemon that switched into togekiss were hardly ever weak to fire, so I never really used it.

As a final comment, I actually haven't trained my team yet, so everything's completely flexible. I'm conducting tests on PO in order to get a good team before I start training to 100, so please; feel free to make any changes you think will benefit my team. Raichu and Sp. Def forretress are the only ones that are readily available since they were trained a while ago. Anyways, suggest away!

Look, Lanturn can't lead ever, don't even suggest it (whoever did).

Major suggestion, run a supporter set on Togekiss with Encore. This creates an unbelievable amount of annoyance for your opponent since every decent player will switch after being Encored (for fear of being set up on). Meaning, with Toxic you can basically just switch all day between Lanturn and Togekiss running between Encore and Confuse Ray (see below).

For Lanturn, could you run a set with the same EV's and nature (Calm I think?) as the ParaFusion set, but then run Confuse Ray / Thunderbolt / Icebeam / Heal Bell, since your team could feasibly have a LOT of problems with well played status teams..?

Try these changes out, I'm sure they will help

I'll consider running a supporter set with Encore, however most of the time people switch in a pokemon that can KO togekiss and if I encore them, they'll kill me. Also, since toxic requires many turns to accumulate large damage, having them switch isn't the best idea (but it does spread toxic around so...). It's an idea i'll take under consideration.

I'll also consider running heal bell with lanturn, but thus far I have yet to run into an issue with status teams. Confuse ray's purpose is to work with thunderwave to prevent opponents from attacking so I don't think it'll serve any purpose here. The charge beam boosts are really helpful on lanturn too, as well as hydro pump for neutral stab damage. Sub also protects me from status and gives me a free turn to hit pokemon I normally couldn't (flygon). I'll consider running something like sub/thunder bolt/heal bell/ice beam or hydro pump, but I think that I'll keep my charge beam set. I will consider replacing lanturn if there's a better alternative though o3o.

 

[Smith]

Got your second message, yeah I'm not a fan of tentacruel. Open Marriland's team builder and put it all of the Pokemon. I think you might see the issue- 3 Pokemon weak to electric and ground is nasty. I think it's also worth mentioning that you have 3 "bulky" waters all occupying the same niche, leaving you open to other threats. In my opinion, forretress does much better things for this team (such as being the only steel type). If you really, really strongly dislike him, you could always spring for some other setters, such as Bulky Roserade. I just don't think tentacruel is the right choice.

I hope this helps!