Resource Union Street - Casual Discussion Thread

LouisCyphre

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Not likely any time soon. It forces the referee to generate new profiles for the facility's Pokemon, which may or may not be correct; and it also only works for facilities whose Pokemon have typical movepools.

Even then, its impact varies: Moving Pokemon from Lv3 to Lv4 is often only icing, for example. And wild Pokemon in Safaris will only sometimes benefit from knowing more moves. This is a good example of why the reverse (challenger's Pokemon are one Level lower) is tricky to implement, too.
 
Boast Suggestion: Jungle Fever
The Player's team is subject to the same Move/HP restriction as Safari Zone Pokemon

EP%MoodPermitted Orders and Results
100% or less​
Curious​
Attacks that share an original type with the user,​
Normal-type attacks, and non-attack actions that target the user.​
75% or less​
Irritated​
Attacks of any type, and non-attack actions that target the user.​
50% or less​
Threatened​
Any moves the Pokemon knows.​
 
Does anyone know how to calculate referee rewards for this match? This match started prior to the match progress rework (this is pre-buff Team Star) so it's a little unclear from the standard rules what cityscapes and I are supposed to receive.
 
I'd just follow the reworked reward structure. All updates apply to non-competitive matches unless otherwise stated, and Realgam rewards for challengers' existent runs were changed in the same update that implemented match progress rules, so it's feasible to think that referee compensation would be adjusted to comply with the new policy.
 

LouisCyphre

heralds disaster.
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Hi, all. Having come back from a break, expect me to catch up with raised issues over the next few days.

I promised a radar post when I got back, so here's one now. Everyone please fervently thank Mowtom for running defense and squashing bugs in the interim, which is what let me collapse and sleep take any sort of absence at all.


The Indigo Disk
For the Indigo Disk DLC, scheduled for December 14th, we're going to be observing the same spoiler embargo as we did for the Teal Mask DLC. That means:​
  • No discussion of new Pokemon, moves, items etc; or of updated Pokemon, moves, movepools, and so on, in BBP and related channels (Discord), except in places marked for spoiler-friendly discussion.
    • The assumed spoiler probation period will be two weeks, same as before.
    • The content of trailers and other official promotional material is also considered to be spoilers. Refer to their content only in spoiler-friendly areas.
    • Any content outside of BBP, such as in CAP or other forums, are considered view-at-your-own-risk. We won't accept spoilers dropped here simply because "everyone (supposedly) already knows".
If there's sufficient demand for a spoiler-friendly thread on the forum, instead of just Discord, we'll create one. After the spoiler embargo, we'll Time Machine any spoiler threads so we don't have a mess of pinned discussion threads, and likely drag it back out again for later spoiler embargoes.
We're open to discussion on a shorter (or less likely, longer) embargo period, given the length of the Teal Mask DLC. However, the Indigo Disk DLC is advertised as being longer and more feature-rich, so a two-week period seems to be the safest bet.


CAP Data Page Assistance
I'll get as many of these dressed up and into the DAT as I reasonably can throughout the week. This is tedious work, so I'm grateful that everyone was open to bribery willing to participate. It may seem like we're dragging our feet on this (because I am, a little), but we would like to get this done.​
Maintaining these pages as CAPs are updated going forward will be very much easier than the initial act of creating them, so I'm not really concerned. Updates like this one for Teal Mask move updates (thanks again for tackling that, Mow!) can be pretty easily be handled in a single sitting by a single moderator.​
At just 19 / 71 total CAPs implemented and CAP 33 "Cresceidon" approaching completion (with no prevolutions, mercifully), it will probably fall to a large push from me to get at least the fully evolved CAPs' pages done in time, so that at least Level 1 to 4 CAPs can be profile-updated in the upcoming Anniversary Patch. Prevolutions are less important to have updated, I'm somewhat sorry to say.​
Speaking of...​


The Anniversary Patch ("Season 2")
Within the spoiler embargo period, we expect to complete the DLC (for those of us that will play it) and prepare any new content for deployment. Gen 9 BBP's anniversary would be December 16th unless memory fails, but the timing of the Indigo Disk means we'll have to push the release down anyway. What we'll aim for is a December 28th launch, pushed back from the 16th thanks to the spoiler embargo, so that players have a couple of days to scope out the changes before January's Circuit. That Circuit will likely be a bit of a wild west format as players compete to adapt to the changes, so we likely won't even feature an arena effect.​
As for the patch content itself... Well, please first enjoy these partial text excerpts from (tentative and not binding) current contents of the patch-to-be:​
  • "At the end of the round: Lower each active Pokemon's Accuracy stage by one (1)."
  • "The user has Evasive against attacks with power bonuses."
  • "While no actions have missed the user this round: The user's current and maximum Evasion stage are increased by one (1)."
  • "While the user or a teammate has Intimidate"
  • "When the user takes damage from an opponent's attack: Put a Fuse marker on the user."
  • "At the end of the round: Create Sun for five (5) rounds; then discard all non-Sun weather."
  • "If a held item would heal HP or deal damage; instead, it does the opposite."
  • "36"
  • "Remove a Music marker from this item."
  • "When each of the following occurs, if this item doesn't have the corresponding Sticker marker"
The above is for users who have asked rather directly for hints, so that they have something to puzzle through. I don't see the harm, so ask and ye shall receive.​
To give some more concrete previews:​
  • The patch currently spans two posts, and may span three or more once DLC pieces are added.
  • At least one new fanfiction condition, Dread, will be joining Attack Aid and the others.
  • Z-Moves will not be revised in time for this patch. They need deep mechanical revision to arrive at a healthy place.
  • A new substitution clause is being added, and one or more (rarely used) others are candidates for trimming.
  • Previous statements, that we aimed to rein in the extra damage that certain items add to the game, are still true.
  • Attack Aid and Defense Aid in particular will be offered to many different fringe-playable Pokemon via their abilities. These effects will also be available conditionally on very few items — it would be bad for game health if these effects were too generically available, rendering stats pointless.
That's a lot of writing about a patch that is, itself, a lot of writing.​


Upcoming Content
Most content that was meant to launch around this time, especially Pinnacle Raids, are still on the back-burner. For Pinnacle Raids in particular, they're being delayed while we figure out how solvable Pinnacle content is allowed to be.​
Depending on what we decide, it might be the case that the highest Raids will require the referee to make decisions. This may be bad news for fans of relaxed, fully automated reffings. The alternatives (such as having very tight DPS checks, very punishing damage, or a large and random set of possible mechanics) all disinterest us for one or another downside. We'll see if we can find a source of "legitimate" difficulty besides human decision-making, but don't be surprised if that's what we end up using.​
Safari tests are progressing well this time around. The workload of the older version — creating custom substitution behaviors, and custom capture criteria, for every single Pokemon was far too high, so seeing that the new "moods" for wild Pokemon are working properly is heartening. Having to assign them prizing is a bit difficult, especially given that explorers can (potentially) capture and release up to four Pokemon in most treks. We'll see if anything changes regarding how rewards are earned.​
Having to wait for these tests to progress meant I didn't have much leeway to run off and make further facilities, which is where the opportunity to take a break arose from (alongside Mowtom's excellent management).​
I'm also happy with the structure of the new capture mechanics: Introducing Poke Ball accuracy to oppose Poke Ball potency has given capture the necessary depth to add interesting choices to Safari and its preparation. I'll probably be making a pass to make the possible ranges smaller, but such a pass is only possible because we believe this version has good bones mechanically.​


Lightning Round
For elements not fitting into the above sections, I'll be addressing them in quick form within:​
  • JC Work: Is mostly done! We're not sure when exactly we want to launch this. Tentatively, the Anniversary patch sounds like as good a time as any.
  • Additional Facilities: The Battle Tree, the Battle Pike, and the yet-undisclosed facility are still progressing steadily.
  • Monthly Events: Are proceeding apace. If I had taken a break like this one when other mods had exams or overtime, we might have had to skip a month. It could happen in the future, so don't hold it against us if it does.
  • I'm sure I've forgotten to touch on something, and I'm sure someone with a knack for pedantry will remind me.
 
  • I'm sure I've forgotten to touch on something, and I'm sure someone with a knack for pedantry will remind me.
No pedantry here, but it seems pertinent to acknowledge that a couple of events remain unresolved. Firstly, the Grand Tournament of Gen XIII has been finished for quite some time, yet the final rewards were never distributed. To facilitate its conclusion, I have crafted an unofficial scoreboard that reflects each player's standing after the final round. It is noted that the tiebreakers may need to be checked, as it was assumed that prioritizing the "head-to-head" record prevented a player from finishing above one to whom they received a loss and whose final points were equal to theirs, but I believe the table to be otherwise accurate.

Top 8:
Player:Record (W-L):Points:Total Match Time (Rounds):Average Match Time (Rounds):Placement:Notes:
S0L1D G0LD3-03227.331st
Dogfish442-12227.332ndwon vs Maxim
Maxim2-12175.673rdlost vs Dogfish44
TMan872-12237.674thwon vs Mowtom
Mowtom2-121865thlost vs TMan87, won vs TheEver
TheEver2-12258.336thwon vs epicdrill, lost vs Mowtom
epicdrill2-122797thlost vs TheEver
Doduodrio1-111058th

Bottom 8:
Player:Record (W-L):Points:Total Match Time (Rounds):Average Match Time (Rounds):Placement:Notes:
Gemini Taurus1-21196.339thwon vs P2X7
P2X71-2124810thlost vs Gemini Taurus
nightblitz421-11178.511thwon vs TMan87
LouisCyphre1-21289.3312thlost vs nightblitz42
JJayyFeather0-103313th
Rextreff0-104414th
Fiorina Liastacia0-108815th
HydrogenHydreigon0-30258.3316th

Rewards:
S0L1D G0LD: 1x Heatran/Manaphy/(Shaymin+Gracidea)
Dogfish44: 1x Azelf/Mesprit/Uxie

Records:
Dogfish44: wwl
Fiorina Liastacia: l
Maxim: wlw
Rextreff: l
epicdrill: wlw
LouisCyphre: llw
Gemini Taurus: wll
P2X7: lwl
TheEver: wwl
HydrogenHydreigon: lll
S0L1D G0LD: www
nightblitz42: lw
TMan87: wlw
Mowtom: lww
Doduodrio: wl
JJayyFeather: l

Links (victor) (rounds):
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gt1-r1-dogfish44-vs-florina-liastacia.3696961/page-2 (p1) (8)
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gt1-r1-rextreff-vs-maxim.3696945/ (p2) (4)
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gt1-r1-epicdrill-vs-louis-cyphre.3697007/page-2 (p1) (9)
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gt1-r1-gemini-taurus-vs-p2x7.3696969/page-2 (p1) (9)
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gt1-r1-theever-vs-hydrogenhydreigon.3696956/ (p1) (8)
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gt1-r1-nightblitz42-vs-s0l1d-g0ld.3697008/page-2 (p2) (7)
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gt1-r1-mowtom-vs-tman.3696959/ (p2) (9)
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gt1-r2-gemini-taurus-vs-mowtom.3700638/ (p2) (0)
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gt1-r2-dogfish44-vs-maxim.3700639/ (p1) (6)
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gt1-r2-epicdrill-vs-theever.3700652/ (p2) (8)
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gt1-r2-louiscyphre-vs-nightblitz42.3700640/ (p2) (10)
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gt1-r2-tman87-vs-s0l1d-g0ld.3700657/ (p2) (7)
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gt1-r2-p2x7-vs-hydrogenhydreigon.3701891/ (p1) (8)
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gt1-r2-jjayyfeather-vs-doduodrio.3701203/ (p2) (3)
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gt1-r3-maxim-vs-doduodrio.3707217/ (p1) (7)
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gt1-r3-louiscyphre-vs-hydrogenhydreigon.3707216/ (p1) (9)
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gt1-r3-mowtom-vs-theever.3707219/ (p1) (9)
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gt1-r3-gemini-taurus-vs-epicdrill.3707199/ (p2) (10)
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gt1-r3-tman87-vs-p2x7.3707256/ (p1) (7)
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gt1-r3-dogfish44-vs-s0l1d-g0ld.3707240/ (p2) (8)

Second, HUA2022 is still in need of completion, although I would consider this a lower priority given the tardiness of the prior subject. Nevertheless, it is worthy of mention, so I place it in this footnote.
 
I won't be joining this December's League Circuit, but I want to mention that it seems like a cool way to gauge the power levels of various major Legendaries. Also, with more Pinnacle content under development, and with Realgam Tower setting a precedent for the distribution of such Pokemon throughout the playerbase, this would be an interesting method of determining which of Legendaries could be reasonably released next.
 

LouisCyphre

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How do we feel about substitution changes, when they're made, affecting competitive matches. I feel like patching a newly-found loophole advertises that loophole, which is why we do it that way, but I'd like to hear if it bothers everyone that it's the one exception.
 
How do we feel about substitution changes, when they're made, affecting competitive matches. I feel like patching a newly-found loophole advertises that loophole, which is why we do it that way, but I'd like to hear if it bothers everyone that it's the one exception.
I didn't reply initially to this because my opinions were very weak but since nobody else has: I would weakly prefer them not doing so.
 
Weird boast suggestion:
It would be good to have token rewards even for very low boasts, i.e.:
any boasts = 1 TC
4 (Bravado + Level)* = 3 TC
* must be at least 1 boast, can't claim for lv4 + 0

I think it's good to encourage people to boast whenever they think they can; it makes the ref have more fun.
 
Weird boast suggestion:
It would be good to have token rewards even for very low boasts, i.e.:
any boasts = 1 TC
4 (Bravado + Level)* = 3 TC
* must be at least 1 boast, can't claim for lv4 + 0

I think it's good to encourage people to boast whenever they think they can; it makes the ref have more fun.
For what it's worth I also enjoy the boasting system as a player. The current prize tiers dissuade me from having too much fun with it, though; sometimes I think the team I'm using can handle 7, 9, or 11+ total Bravado + level of added difficulty, but there's no incentive for me to accept boasts that would leave me between thresholds.
 

LouisCyphre

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The Indigo Disk

For the Indigo Disk DLC, which is now downloadable in some regions, we're going to be observing the same two-week spoiler embargo as we did for the Teal Mask DLC. That means:
  • No discussion of new Pokemon, moves, items etc; or of updated Pokemon, moves, movepools, and so on, in BBP and related channels (Discord), except in places marked for spoiler-friendly discussion.
    • The content of trailers and other official promotional material is also considered to be spoilers. Refer to their content only in spoiler-friendly areas.
    • Any content outside of BBP, such as in CAP or other forums, are considered view-at-your-own-risk. We won't accept spoilers dropped here simply because "everyone (supposedly) already knows".
We'll go until... The start of December 29th, UTC 00:00, to keep things simple. We know that the DLC drops at different times in some regions.
 
Depending on what we decide, it might be the case that the highest Raids will require the referee to make decisions. This may be bad news for fans of relaxed, fully automated reffings. The alternatives (such as having very tight DPS checks, very punishing damage, or a large and random set of possible mechanics) all disinterest us for one or another downside. We'll see if we can find a source of "legitimate" difficulty besides human decision-making, but don't be surprised if that's what we end up using.
As a suggestion, what you could do is a sort of "King of the Hill", where the person who beats one of those highest raids then has to then design what it becomes, and they get passive income from their raid creation as long as its not beaten (for example, 1 EXP Disc a month, or something).

Like that, you can crowdsource the difficulty from the very people who enjoy trying to solve raids.

The rules for designing your own raid could be to choose between one of three templates (large single boss, horde of enemies, or waves), and then to fill in the blanks for which mons there are and what their robot brains are designed to do.
 
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TMan87

We shall bow to neither master nor god
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As a suggestion, what you could do is a sort of "King of the Hill", where the person who beats one of those highest raids then has to then design what it becomes, and they get passive income from their raid creation as long as its not beaten (for example, 1 EXP Disc a month, or something).

Like that, you can crowdsource the difficulty from the very people who enjoy trying to solve raids.

The rules for designing your own raid could be to choose between one of three templates (large single boss, horde of enemies, or waves), and then to fill in the blanks for which mons there are and what their robot brains are designed to do.
People are free from submitting Raid ideas (thought-out Raid ideas, mind you. We require at least an outline and proof of concept or something, not just wild ideas), but the whole 'profiting from unbeated Raids' is a very, very bad idea because it is optimal for would-be designers to do one of those two things:
  • Create an unbeatable Raid to profit off it forever (hey guys check out my Arceus Raid that has 9999 HP and an enrage timer of 1 round)
  • Create a Raid that's technically beatable but in a very Mario Maker or TLR-esque way, in which there is exactly ONE path to victory and you have to do everything perfectly otherwise you fail
Both of those are actually highly undesirable, so trading raid ideas for rewards isn't on the table just yet.
 

LouisCyphre

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It is now; good catch.

Now, to put out a feeler:
  • Mods feel that having everyone playing on the same "version" of BBP is crucial — when someone asks a question, it's very important that other players be able to answer confidently without having to check the type of match, posting date of the match, and so on.
  • Players obviously don't want their match strategies disrupted by a patch "fixing" that strategy. Players also don't want their match strategies to stop working because a counter-option was "fixed" to now counter them correctly.
  • Terminology like "hotfix", "patch", and even "change" have been brought up by players over the course of the generation, as if they have defined or intuitive meanings, but those meanings have differed enough to show that there isn't consensus.
All of which is to ask:
  • What do people think an immediately-effective change is called? What kind of changes are best made immediate?
  • What do people think a change effective in future rounds is called? What kind of changes are best made on round change?
  • What kind of changes are best left out of ongoing competitive matches? Which should be made in?
  • Should most changes be delayed to a timing between Circuits, to sidestep this issue.
I'm unsure how to best stop people from getting swept up in the tide of consensus on this one; my hope is to hear lots of players' varied preferences.

None of this will really impact the coming patch, which is already slated to be impacting future rounds, excluding competitive ones. Ideally, I'd like to boil the feedback into as few "types" of changes as possible. We'll see what comes of that, though.
 
its a bit wishywasy but I feel like changes that effect how people believe the game works should apply to newly started games but not existing ones, while bug fixes that make things work how people already think they work should likely be immediate (for example persuit not working vs evasive moves feels like it could be fixed immediately since that is what people who read both moves would assume was true anyway.)

My big reasoning is that realgams and raids are a big investment of time and it would suck to have your strateg torpedoed halfway through by some change and end up at the back of a 2 week queue. For example if you lose a raid due to zoom lens being changed, or a strategy being deemed to truly break the raid and removed mid your run, all of those feel like they would create very negative emotions, while the cost to game health of 1 raid being won is minimal.

causuals I don't really mind either way, maybe it is better if they are updated immediately in all cases?
 

TheEver

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To me, changes can be grouped into three categories:

Hotfix (or bugfix): An individual, immediate change to fix something that doesn’t work as intended, such as fixing a mistake in data entry or adding/updating some rules text to ensure a move works properly.

Patch: A more intentional change, or a collection of such changes. This could be offering some love to a bad ability, nerfing an overpowered item, etc.

Update: Fundamental changes to the games core systems. Generally requires stuff like profile updates and has a clear “before update” and “after update” associated with it. Generally, but not always, coincide with game releases.

In terms of keeping everyone on the same version of the game, I think whatever text exists in the handbook or DAT should be the version of the game that is played. Having to reference patch notes in addition to either of those is annoying. To that end, future updates and patches should be given plenty of advance warning before their actual implementation date. It’ll never be perfect due to the game’s asynchronous nature and reliance on humans for computation, but having a patch note outlining how moves/abilities/items/etc. are getting changed in, say, two weeks should help curb the cases where someone brings something to a facility that proceeds to get gutted by round two. This also could help the community do some bug fixing that slipped by the mods, before the changes are implemented. Patches and updates could also be scheduled to minimize their effect on competitive matches, such as their implementation dates being set between circuits or TLG rotations.

For example, a patch could look something like this:

(Post date: Jan 1 2024)

Here are the details for the patch that will be implemented January 15th, 2024. (two weeks is just for examples sake, I’m not suggesting it should be that specific duration)

- X Ability is getting some love. It now has (new effect).
- Y Item has proven to be too strong for too broad a range of users. (Removed effect) is being removed from it.
- Z Move had no real use case. It’s being completely reworked. It now has (reworked effect).

And changes that fix a bug and otherwise do nothing else should just be immediate. If your entire strategy relies on a bug exploit then too bad so sad, imo.
 
What do people think an immediately-effective change is called?
I think "hotfix".

What kind of changes are best made immediate?
- Clarifying wording ambiguities without changing the underlying mechanic. For example, changing "Effect Chance" to say "Effect Check", or clarifying if an effect is a regular power bonus or that its actually intended to say "power boost" instead. I feel like this can be done anytime.
- Fixing bugs that cause mechanics to execute their specific block of ruletext in catastrophic, unintended ways. For example, Rest not ever applying Sleep, an item that is intended to give a +2 stat stage failing to do so in all possible cases, or a mathematically unambiguous but unintended interaction that causes you to gain infinite TC. I wouldn't qualify things like the recent No Retreat->Guillotine combo to be catastrophic.

What do people think a change effective in future rounds is called?
Unsure, "patch" maybe?

What kind of changes are best made on round change?
I believe you mean those that enact when a new round in-battle happens? If so then, the same that would be best made immediate.

[*]What kind of changes are best left out of ongoing competitive matches?
- Fixing unintended but clearly legal interactions that aren't "catastrophic".
- Anything in general that doesn't fall into the "immediate" category mentioned above.

Which should be made in?
The immediate kind.

[*]Should most changes be delayed to a timing between Circuits, to sidestep this issue
I believe so, yes. I think that might be the best approach.

In terms of keeping everyone on the same version of the game, I think whatever text exists in the handbook or DAT should be the version of the game that is played. Having to reference patch notes in addition to either of those is annoying. To that end, future updates and patches should be given plenty of advance warning before their actual implementation date. It’ll never be perfect due to the game’s asynchronous nature and reliance on humans for computation, but having a patch note outlining how moves/abilities/items/etc. are getting changed in, say, two weeks should help curb the cases where someone brings something to a facility that proceeds to get gutted by round two. This also could help the community do some bug fixing that slipped by the mods, before the changes are implemented. Patches and updates could also be scheduled to minimize their effect on competitive matches, such as their implementation dates being set between circuits or TLG rotations.
I strongly agree with this. The advance warning thing and schedule especially.
 
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