Unpopular opinions

[Sondero]

When did I say you need to get in underleveled?
The leader never has pokemons the same level.
So for the sake of simplicity, let's assume the example given has Lt. Surge with two Lv. 20 Pokémon and his ace at 25.
Do you go in with your own ace to match it and two pokemons at lv. 20? Do you go for a more balanced team spread like 22/22/21, even if you get underleveled against the ace?

There are a lot of ways both trainers can use the level spread, just like in Stadium.

In fact, let me give you another example, the player skips Surge and decides to have Erika as the third Gym Leader.
Exact same rules, each Gym is treated like a tier, so the levels must be consistent.
However, due to Oddish and Bellsprout evolution levels, she decides to go with a balanced level spread.

Do you follow suit or do you use a ace like Surge and shows up with an Overleveled mon?

Generally, Pokemon games are meant for little kids to be able to beat them. So having the option to just overlevel and curvestomp everything is appreciated for those who can't really figure out all the odds and ends of how the game works and the different strategies one can use.
I don't think a level cap is ever going to be implemented further than B/W's method of scaling Exp. In which case, you'll earn far less exp. from grinding off underleveled wild Pokemon, making it incredibly tedious to go far above and beyond Gym Leaders' Aces. Even if a bigger difficulty setting was available in Pokemon, where playing on a harder setting would force the level cap and such, it would discourage some newer players who would think they suck at the game just because they find playing on Easy or even Medium more enjoyable than playing on the hardest difficulty.

To keep Pokemon accessible to everyone, GF likes to disquise the closest things to a difficulty setting as a regular option. That is, playing on Shift or Set mode. They also introduce tons of stuff that makes the game easier like Pokemon amie/refresh, the Exp. Share and the free win Pokemon near the gyms like Mr. Mime and Staravia before the Fighting gym in X/Y, but these can all be turned off/ignored to make the game to impose a challenge on yourself. There's also other forms of doing that like Nuzlockes, Monotype runs etc.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Generally, Pokemon games are meant for little kids to be able to beat them. So having the option to just overlevel and curvestomp everything is appreciated for those who can't really figure out all the odds and ends of how the game works and the different strategies one can use.
I don't think a level cap is ever going to be implemented further than B/W's method of scaling Exp. In which case, you'll earn far less exp. from grinding off underleveled wild Pokemon, making it incredibly tedious to go far above and beyond Gym Leaders' Aces. Even if a bigger difficulty setting was available in Pokemon, where playing on a harder setting would force the level cap and such, it would discourage some newer players who would think they suck at the game just because they find playing on Easy or even Medium more enjoyable than playing on the hardest difficulty.

To keep Pokemon accessible to everyone, GF likes to disquise the closest things to a difficulty setting as a regular option. That is, playing on Shift or Set mode. They also introduce tons of stuff that makes the game easier like Pokemon amie/refresh, the Exp. Share and the free win Pokemon near the gyms like Mr. Mime and Staravia before the Fighting gym in X/Y, but these can all be turned off/ignored to make the game to impose a challenge on yourself. There's also other forms of doing that like Nuzlockes, Monotype runs etc.

Yeah, my idea was implementing these in either a non-linear game or as a difficulty setting.

Having this system on a "Hard Mode" would alleviate the feeling most people have that the games got too easy.
XY looked notoriously easy, even for the franchise standards, which is frankly disappointing.

 

[PageofSwords]

Wouldn't it actually make sense that their teams happen to have hard counters living nearby? Perhaps many of them want you to figure that out.

Well, that's certainly possible. I'm not sure how well it aligns with a fair few of those counters being gifts or in-game trades though. In some cases you can still argue it's intentional, e.g. the starters or the BW monkeys. In other cases, such as Machop in GSC, less so.

There are a lot of ways both trainers can use the level spread, just like in Stadium.

Is that really the main feature that complicates fights in Stadium though? Granted, there are definitely people that beat gyms by overleveling, but I'd guess that those with experience - i.e. the ones that are looking for something like a hard mode - don't do that to any significant degree. It seems to me that Stadium mainly thrives on (1) opponents having more coverage options; and (2) the player needing to account for more than one team during their challenge instead.

It feels like level scaling captures only half the picture and caps are a less important aspect there in my eyes.

 

[Detective Barricade]

Yeah, my idea was implementing these in either a non-linear game or as a difficulty setting.

Having this system on a "Hard Mode" would alleviate the feeling most people have that the games got too easy.
XY looked notoriously easy, even for the franchise standards, which is frankly disappointing.

X and Y weren't "too easy". We simply know the basic mechanics of the game by heart by this point. Heck, Diantha's Pokemon are all higher leveled than Blue's and with more compelling move sets, but as we know what to expect, we steamroll her and call the game "too easy".

Still, Game Freak has heard the remarks about EXP Share making things a bit "too easy", and so has tried to compensate with the return of gen 5's EXP system, awarding less EXP for defeating significantly lower leveled Pokemon. We can't say if this will stick, (the interesting Totem battles certainly won't; that's too much an Alola region thing to carry over) but I'm sure they've no intention of putting in a hard mode. If we want it, we'll have to continue to impose the challenges we want upon ourselves.

 

[Siggu]

The only pair of games that is way too easy is ORAS.

Between the opponents having lower levels than in the originals (not being overleveled in any major battle should be considered an achievement here) and the DexNav giving you mons with overpowered moves for their levels (I got a Boomburst Taillow before the first gym and it OHKOed every single one of Brawly's mons. Keep in mind it's a neutral move coming off its lower attacking stat)... it's difficult to find it difficult, Exp. Share or not.

 

[Detective Barricade]

The only pair of games that is way too easy is ORAS.

Between the opponents having lower levels than in the originals (not being overleveled in any major battle should be considered an achievement here) and the DexNav giving you mons with overpowered moves for their levels (I got a Boomburst Taillow before the first gym and it OHKOed every single one of Brawly's mons. Keep in mind it's a neutral move coming off its lower attacking stat)... it's difficult to find it difficult, Exp. Share or not.

Yet you didn't have to use that Taillow. And you still know pretty much how the game is going to progress. I won't argue that they're not a little more convenient in places, especially where Brendan/May or Wally offer to take the player to their next destination, but the levels do pick up again by around Flannery. Winona's team is actually slightly higher leveled than in Ruby and Sapphire, and the major battles generally stay that way. Granted, after Norman you're forced to obtain a Mega Lati@s, but again you don't have to use it.

I don't think the original games were really harder so much as we didn't have as great of a grasp of how the game's mechanics work. I mean, plenty of us probably went through our first Pokemon game with just a vastly over-leveled starter and whatever random stuff we could catch or were given that could learn the HM's needed to progress. Maybe a legendary too, especially as every game from Gold/Silver onward (except FR/LG) features one on the box. Then we learned better and actually started to put diversity into the starter's moves, and later into the rest of the team.

 

[Pikachu315111]

When did I say you need to get in underleveled?
The leader never has pokemons the same level.
So for the sake of simplicity, let's assume the example given has Lt. Surge with two Lv. 20 Pokémon and his ace at 25.
Do you go in with your own ace to match it and two pokemons at lv. 20? Or would you rather spring for a more balanced team spread like 22/22/21, even if you get underleveled against the ace?

There are a lot of ways both trainers can use the level spread, just like in Stadium.

In fact, let me give you another example, the player skips Surge and decides to have Erika as the third Gym Leader.
Exact same rules, each Gym is treated like a tier, so the levels must be consistent.
However, due to Oddish and Bellsprout evolution levels, she decides to go with a balanced level spread.

Do you follow suit or do you use a ace like Surge and shows up with an Overleveled mon?

I think you missed my point.

Let's say player leveled all their Pokemon to the cap (which we'll say is 25). Since you had the "Gym's Sum Level" be 65, that means that player is going to have to get a weaker Pokemon, a Pokemon they probably don't want on their team to challenge the Gym and soaking up experience points they want one of their main Pokemon to get. Sure you may have Pokemon two Pokemon on the same level as the Gym's ace, but you still forced the player to do something they didn't want which is replace a Pokemon they want on their team with a Pokemon they don't want just to challenge the Gym.

This "Gym's Sum Level" is unneeded. It's an extra complication to something which the Level Cap has already handled. If the player wants to train all their Pokemon to the level cap before facing the Gym, let them. Don't nerf the player, if anything buff the Gym Leader. Have their ace's Pokemon be a few levels above the level cap, or heck maybe their entire team (let alone having them use strategies, giving their Pokemon hold items, and maybe allowing them to use Mega Evolution/Z-Moves/whatever other super mechanic they introduce).

Generally, Pokemon games are meant for little kids to be able to beat them. So having the option to just overlevel and curvestomp everything is appreciated for those who can't really figure out all the odds and ends of how the game works and the different strategies one can use.
I don't think a level cap is ever going to be implemented further than B/W's method of scaling Exp. In which case, you'll earn far less exp. from grinding off underleveled wild Pokemon, making it incredibly tedious to go far above and beyond Gym Leaders' Aces. Even if a bigger difficulty setting was available in Pokemon, where playing on a harder setting would force the level cap and such, it would discourage some newer players who would think they suck at the game just because they find playing on Easy or even Medium more enjoyable than playing on the hardest difficulty.

To keep Pokemon accessible to everyone, GF likes to disquise the closest things to a difficulty setting as a regular option. That is, playing on Shift or Set mode. They also introduce tons of stuff that makes the game easier like Pokemon amie/refresh, the Exp. Share and the free win Pokemon near the gyms like Mr. Mime and Staravia before the Fighting gym in X/Y, but these can all be turned off/ignored to make the game to impose a challenge on yourself. There's also other forms of doing that like Nuzlockes, Monotype runs etc.

If implemented correctly the Level Cap would be unnoticeable, meant to more act as a "goal" in which a player can reach with all their Pokemon, thus promote training their whole team instead of just a few. It'll also give new Pokemon they encounter a chance to be added to the team and catch-up if the other Pokemon have reached the cap. As for the Gym Leaders, how they scale can be determined by a difficulty setting (also instead of calling them Easy, Medium, and Hard we can call them Starter, Trainer, & Champion (also allow players to actively switch between difficulty in the Options); I think this would help with the younger players not feeling discouraged if they can't beat it on Champion because, hey, it's called Champion and their character isn't Champion yet so it's alright. Trainer is meant to be the default mode anyway, with Starter for those who this game is their first (or people who just want to get through the game and into the post game stuff)).

"Why do we need Level Caps though"? Well, mostly because it's so easy to overlevel your already strong Pokemon while trying to train your weaker Pokemon. Easiest way to train is with the Exp. Share on, but ALL Pokemon now get the effect including your strongest. Now, another way around this issue is if the Exp Share had a control menu which lets us choose which Pokemon is to be given experience and which aren't, but that adds another level of micromanaging.

 

[Detective Barricade]

I think you missed my point.

Let's say player leveled all their Pokemon to the cap (which we'll say is 25). Since you had the "Gym's Sum Level" be 65, that means that player is going to have to get a weaker Pokemon, a Pokemon they probably don't want on their team to challenge the Gym and soaking up experience points they want one of their main Pokemon to get. Sure you may have Pokemon two Pokemon on the same level as the Gym's ace, but you still forced the player to do something they didn't want which is replace a Pokemon they want on their team with a Pokemon they don't want just to challenge the Gym.

This "Gym's Sum Level" is unneeded. It's an extra complication to something which the Level Cap has already handled. If the player wants to train all their Pokemon to the level cap before facing the Gym, let them. Don't nerf the player, if anything buff the Gym Leader. Have their ace's Pokemon be a few levels above the level cap, or heck maybe their entire team (let alone having them use strategies, giving their Pokemon hold items, and maybe allowing them to use Mega Evolution/Z-Moves/whatever other super mechanic they introduce).



If implemented correctly the Level Cap would be unnoticeable, meant to more act as a "goal" in which a player can reach with all their Pokemon, thus promote training their whole team instead of just a few. It'll also give new Pokemon they encounter a chance to be added to the team and catch-up if the other Pokemon have reached the cap. As for the Gym Leaders, how they scale can be determined by a difficulty setting (also instead of calling them Easy, Medium, and Hard we can call them Starter, Trainer, & Champion (also allow players to actively switch between difficulty in the Options); I think this would help with the younger players not feeling discouraged if they can't beat it on Champion because, hey, it's called Champion and their character isn't Champion yet so it's alright. Trainer is meant to be the default mode anyway, with Starter for those who this game is their first (or people who just want to get through the game and into the post game stuff)).

"Why do we need Level Caps though"? Well, mostly because it's so easy to overlevel your already strong Pokemon while trying to train your weaker Pokemon. Easiest way to train is with the Exp. Share on, but ALL Pokemon now get the effect including your strongest. Now, another way around this issue is if the Exp Share had a control menu which lets us choose which Pokemon is to be given experience and which aren't, but that adds another level of micromanaging.

Maybe it'd be enough to give the leader's Pokemon a +1 or +2 to one or all of their stats at the start of battle. Compensating for a weakness in the stats or making a strength more formidable seemed to work well with the Totem battles and the final battle with Lusamine in Sun and Moon, (the laughable Attack boost for Milotic notwithstanding) so maybe they could try that? I don't know. This all seems to be drifting into wishlisting territory to me, so I'm just going to leave it be from here.

 

[Xen]

While I like the idea of gym leaders using differing teams depending on which order you fight them in, implementing level caps just seems like a bad idea all around (minus battle facilities for obvious reasons).

One of the chief complaints of the newer games is the lack of flexibility the main story offers to players, and level caps would only make that problem far more imposing. Little kids would get frustrated with the game and quit playing it, and people who breeze through the game for competitive purposes (which is a lot of people) would be royally screwed over by level caps. In many ways level caps would be as annoying, if not more annoying, than Gen VII’s unskippable cutscenes.

If it was implemented as an optional setting akin to Shift/Set, then I’ll bite, but level caps being forced would be suicide to the franchise

 

[Pikachu315111]

While I like the idea of gym leaders using differing teams depending on which order you fight them in, implementing level caps just seems like a bad idea all around (minus battle facilities for obvious reasons).

One of the chief complaints of the newer games is the lack of flexibility the main story offers to players, and level caps would only make that problem far more imposing. Little kids would get frustrated with the game and quit playing it, and people who breeze through the game for competitive purposes (which is a lot of people) would be royally screwed over by level caps. In many ways level caps would be as annoying, if not more annoying, than Gen VII’s unskippable cutscenes.

If it was implemented as an optional setting akin to Shift/Set, then I’ll bite, but level caps being forced would be suicide to the franchise

Mind explaining?

What's the lack of flexibility? The only lack of flexibility I could recall is the Pokemon distribution, and that's an issue all games have where there would be a late game Pokemon who would be cool to have on your team but by that point you already have a full and balanced team. If anything level caps may allow and encourage players to try out new Pokemon they constantly encounter as there levels won't be that far behind the player's team and if they are they could more easily catch-up.

As for little kids getting frustrated, I've been thinking about that. What proof do we have that this is true? How do we know if the game provides any sort of challenge the kid would get upset and throw their 3DS against the wall? Or how do we know the kid, upon feeling unchallenged and the sense of monotony coming in, won't put the game down and do something else more engaging? How do we know if the kid, upon growing up playing "you win no matter what" games, wouldn't find some interest upon not only having to overcome a challenge but may be in position to lose. For once, the game actually has them more than just button mash, it actually asks them to use what the game has taught them: Type match-ups, held items, Pokemon Refresh, switching out, using items, predicting their opponents, etc.. The game becomes more engaging, more exciting, making you want to play it and beat it so you can proclaim you're the best that no one ever was (... and then get your behind handed to you in the Battle Facility but that's a whole other can of worms, we're talking about main story here).

And, as I said, if implemented correctly you won't notice the Level Caps. Those just trying to plow through the story to get to the post game stuff probably have played Pokemon games enough they know all the tip and tricks so it won't affect them much (if anything they already take on the main game under leveled).

Or at the very least, have a level cap mechanic for Hard mode (though that would cause some problems if you switch from a lower difficulty to a higher difficulty. I suppose you could lower the Pokemon's level if their over the level cap but what if the Pokemon learned a move that they get at a higher level? Hm, unless, the Level Cap doesn't present level ups and learning new moves, just keeps the Pokemon stats at a certain level point)?

 

[Detective Barricade]

Mind explaining?

What's the lack of flexibility? The only lack of flexibility I could recall is the Pokemon distribution, and that's an issue all games have where there would be a late game Pokemon who would be cool to have on your team but by that point you already have a full and balanced team. If anything level caps may allow and encourage players to try out new Pokemon they constantly encounter as there levels won't be that far behind the player's team and if they are they could more easily catch-up.

As for little kids getting frustrated, I've been thinking about that. What proof do we have that this is true? How do we know if the game provides any sort of challenge the kid would get upset and throw their 3DS against the wall? Or how do we know the kid, upon feeling unchallenged and the sense of monotony coming in, won't put the game down and do something else more engaging? How do we know if the kid, upon growing up playing "you win no matter what" games, wouldn't find some interest upon not only having to overcome a challenge but may be in position to lose. For once, the game actually has them more than just button mash, it actually asks them to use what the game has taught them: Type match-ups, held items, Pokemon Refresh, switching out, using items, predicting their opponents, etc.. The game becomes more engaging, more exciting, making you want to play it and beat it so you can proclaim you're the best that no one ever was (... and then get your behind handed to you in the Battle Facility but that's a whole other can of worms, we're talking about main story here).

And, as I said, if implemented correctly you won't notice the Level Caps. Those just trying to plow through the story to get to the post game stuff probably have played Pokemon games enough they know all the tip and tricks so it won't affect them much (if anything they already take on the main game under leveled).

Or at the very least, have a level cap mechanic for Hard mode (though that would cause some problems if you switch from a lower difficulty to a higher difficulty. I suppose you could lower the Pokemon's level if their over the level cap but what if the Pokemon learned a move that they get at a higher level? Hm, unless, the Level Cap doesn't present level ups and learning new moves, just keeps the Pokemon stats at a certain level point)?

One way to implement a level cap would be for all Pokemon to simply have a chance to disobey once past the cap, with them becoming more disobedient the further above said cap they are. Make the badges actually have meaning with your own Pokemon as well as those without your ID. The cap can go up gradually as needed until about level 60 - 70, then becoming champion allows for up to level 100. This also means they're using a mechanic that already exists and it feels natural. If a Pokemon's level is getting too high for the number of badges you currently hold, it may begin to lose respect in you as a trainer. The box legendary will be just under the next cap so the player can still make use of it in the few remaining major battles if they wish and still feels incredibly powerful.

Last post on this subject, I swear. For real this time. I hope.

 

[Xen]

Mind explaining?

What's the lack of flexibility? The only lack of flexibility I could recall is the Pokemon distribution, and that's an issue all games have where there would be a late game Pokemon who would be cool to have on your team but by that point you already have a full and balanced team. If anything level caps may allow and encourage players to try out new Pokemon they constantly encounter as there levels won't be that far behind the player's team and if they are they could more easily catch-up.

As for little kids getting frustrated, I've been thinking about that. What proof do we have that this is true? How do we know if the game provides any sort of challenge the kid would get upset and throw their 3DS against the wall? Or how do we know the kid, upon feeling unchallenged and the sense of monotony coming in, won't put the game down and do something else more engaging? How do we know if the kid, upon growing up playing "you win no matter what" games, wouldn't find some interest upon not only having to overcome a challenge but may be in position to lose. For once, the game actually has them more than just button mash, it actually asks them to use what the game has taught them: Type match-ups, held items, Pokemon Refresh, switching out, using items, predicting their opponents, etc.. The game becomes more engaging, more exciting, making you want to play it and beat it so you can proclaim you're the best that no one ever was (... and then get your behind handed to you in the Battle Facility but that's a whole other can of worms, we're talking about main story here).

And, as I said, if implemented correctly you won't notice the Level Caps. Those just trying to plow through the story to get to the post game stuff probably have played Pokemon games enough they know all the tip and tricks so it won't affect them much (if anything they already take on the main game under leveled).

Or at the very least, have a level cap mechanic for Hard mode (though that would cause some problems if you switch from a lower difficulty to a higher difficulty. I suppose you could lower the Pokemon's level if their over the level cap but what if the Pokemon learned a move that they get at a higher level? Hm, unless, the Level Cap doesn't present level ups and learning new moves, just keeps the Pokemon stats at a certain level point)?

Well for one it's restrictive because it forces you to play casually with a full team instead of allowing you to breeze through the game quickly. Now most of us in this subforum (myself included) already do this, so it may not be a big deal for us, but you have to remember there's a whole group of people who will run through the game with just their starter in order to start breeding and training for competitive play (especially for time-sensitive metas like VGC). Forced level caps would be the equivalent of flipping those people the middle finger and telling them to take the long way around.

As for kids, it's more or less the same thing; they can't breeze through the game with their overleveled starter or the awesome box legendary. Most kids who play Pokemon are playing at a really young age; too young to really figure out the strategic side of the games. Level caps (unless they're very lenient) would end up railroading all players to play slow and strategic, which includes the younglings who can't/won't understand the more "in-depth" aspects of the games like using a full team of equal leveled Pokemon with a good variety of types and moves. It seems like a prime recipe for frustration for them.

Detective Barricade 's post also brings up another issue with such a system: it punishes players who trade Pokemon. The boosted Exp gains is the biggest draw of trading Pokemon, and a level cap system would outright turn that benefit into a liability by limiting the amount of battles a traded Pokemon can participate in (and likely still leave it with obedience issues to boot). It doesn't seem like a good idea for Game Freak to deter players from participating in one of the core aspects of the franchise.

 

[Pikachu315111]

Well for one it's restrictive because it forces you to play casually with a full team instead of allowing you to breeze through the game quickly. Now most of us in this subforum (myself included) already do this, so it may not be a big deal for us, but you have to remember there's a whole group of people who will run through the game with just their starter in order to start breeding and training for competitive play (especially for time-sensitive metas like VGC). Forced level caps would be the equivalent of flipping those people the middle finger and telling them to take the long way around.

As for kids, it's more or less the same thing; they can't breeze through the game with their overleveled starter or the awesome box legendary. Most kids who play Pokemon are playing at a really young age; too young to really figure out the strategic side of the games. Level caps (unless they're very lenient) would end up railroading all players to play slow and strategic, which includes the younglings who can't/won't understand the more "in-depth" aspects of the games like using a full team of equal leveled Pokemon with a good variety of types and moves. It seems like a prime recipe for frustration for them.

Detective Barricade 's post also brings up another issue with such a system: it punishes players who trade Pokemon. The boosted Exp gains is the biggest draw of trading Pokemon, and a level cap system would outright turn that benefit into a liability by limiting the amount of battles a traded Pokemon can participate in (and likely still leave it with obedience issues to boot). It doesn't seem like a good idea for Game Freak to deter players from participating in one of the core aspects of the franchise.

So we should dumb down the game because there are players who just want to get to the post game to start breeding competitive Pokemon... Well you know what, I'm perfectly fine making those players having to suffer to play the actual game. Because this line of thinking also wouldn't want to have an interesting story or that much additional content outside of Pokemon battling. So no, I'm not taking "players wanting to just get to the post game to breed competitively" as a reason, on the grounds that line of thinking is probably not only held by a small group of players but also because it goes against expanding the Pokemon world. The Pokemon games are already criticized for being same-y and honestly story is one of the few things Pokemon can use to remain relevant by telling interesting stories in ways only the Pokemon world can.

Yes, because how dare we try to teach kids how to use strategy. And you know, this "it'll be too difficult for kids" excuse is pretty insulting to kids. We just assume as soon as they lose a battle they're gonna throw their game out the window, or to be less extreme, stop playing and go play another mind-numbing game, probably a Candy Crush clone. But do we know that for sure? We're sure they're going to jump ship at the slightest hint of difficulty? Why don't we think they'll try to overcome the challenge? If they can't beat it through sheer force how about all those tips and tricks they've been getting (and let's be honest, type advantage is really all you need to beat them). "Well, if it's too tough they may not want to buy the next game!". Well if its too easy and gives them a bland experience why should they bother buying the next game?

Also, if a kid is too young to understand some strategy like using types to their advantage and they're only beating the game through sheer force... than I question what experience are they getting? Because that doesn't sound like a worth wild experience, that just sounds like they're button mashing through the game. Those kids sound too young to be playing the game if you want me to be honest, they'd sound to just be happy playing any game as long as it has bright colors and sound effects.

As for traded Pokemon, thinking about it, I agree that the level cap idea needed a fix. It's not that it's preventing a Pokemon from "leveling up", but rather it's keeping the Pokemon's stats at a certain level. Any Pokemon above that level given to the player will have their level lowered to the cap's max, like in the Battle Facilities. And the Exp Boost wouldn't be wasted as it'll just mean those Pokemon would get to the next cap faster, which could be a good thing as it'll mean they can be the muscle while you're training your other Pokemon that needs the catching-up. Also, with the leveling up still happening in the background, it'll also mean Pokemon can still learn stronger moves via level-up.

 

[Ransei]

Unpopular opinion:

I think ORAS's postgame actually as a lot going for it.

It has:

• The Delta Episode
• Tons of wormholes for legendary Pokemon and possibly shiny hunt for them.
• Fun secret bases you can battle good NPCs in twice per day each (I recommend trying out this secret base)
• While it's not the Battle Frontier, the Battle Maison is still something to try.
• Tons of extra Pokemon in the Hoenn region you can hunt for and catch.
• Unlike XY the Pokemon League improved in the postgame, as it did in Gens 4 and 5
• Soaring In The Sky, because why not.
• Player Search System
• Super Training
• Pokemon Amie

It needs:

• Battle Frontier

The big thing I'm trying to say here mostly is that finding and battling tough opponents in secret bases can be a really fun, alternative thing to do in the postgame as you get to battle pretty much anything. Never before has an NPC been able to carry a level 100 Arceus. Never before has an NPC been able to carry a level 100 Rayquaza with a competitive set. If you like, you can even build your own Battle Facility just with secret bases. You just have to plan the right paths and get the right secret bases for those paths and you can challenge yourself or have friends play.

For anyone who likes training their Pokemon to level 100, there also has never been an easier way other than ORAS Secret Bases. You can get the easiest pack of EXP Points just by inviting secret bases with 3 Blissey into your game using QR Scan.

 

[Xen]

So we should dumb down the game because there are players who just want to get to the post game to start breeding competitive Pokemon... Well you know what, I'm perfectly fine making those players having to suffer to play the actual game. Because this line of thinking also wouldn't want to have an interesting story or that much additional content outside of Pokemon battling. So no, I'm not taking "players wanting to just get to the post game to breed competitively" as a reason, on the grounds that line of thinking is probably not only held by a small group of players but also because it goes against expanding the Pokemon world. The Pokemon games are already criticized for being same-y and honestly story is one of the few things Pokemon can use to remain relevant by telling interesting stories in ways only the Pokemon world can.

...how is that dumbing down the game? It’s what the games are running with right now, and it’s working just fine. The Pokémon games today are a lot more story-focused, especially compared to the stories of the older generations. Now whether the shift to story focused games are a good thing for the series or not is a matter or personal opinion, but it’s happening right now in a way that doesn’t infringe on someone’s ability to speedrun through the game if they so desire. If anything, a level cap system could potentially pull focus away from the story if it isn’t handled properly.

I'm not taking "players wanting to just get to the post game to breed competitively" as a reason.

You see, if Game Freak were the ones with that mentality, then they would effectively push away a huge chunk of the VGC community (which is a lot bigger than you think it is). You have to remember that Pokémon is a franchise that appeals to a broad audience, which consists of several sub-groups that fit into either the “casual players” or “competitive players” category. Alienating one of those groups for the sake of the other would cause a fallout for both the games and the fanbase.

Game Freak has proven before that it is entirely possible to balance the medium between casual and competitive players (look at HGSS for instance), and if USUM were any indication, they are trying to make the in-game story more challenging for veterans of the franchise. But the median between the fanbase is very easy to disrupt if it isn’t handled properly.

Yes, because how dare we try to teach kids how to use strategy. And you know, this "it'll be too difficult for kids" excuse is pretty insulting to kids. We just assume as soon as they lose a battle they're gonna throw their game out the window, or to be less extreme, stop playing and go play another mind-numbing game, probably a Candy Crush clone. But do we know that for sure? We're sure they're going to jump ship at the slightest hint of difficulty? Why don't we think they'll try to overcome the challenge? If they can't beat it through sheer force how about all those tips and tricks they've been getting (and let's be honest, type advantage is really all you need to beat them). "Well, if it's too tough they may not want to buy the next game!". Well if its too easy and gives them a bland experience why should they bother buying the next game?

Also, if a kid is too young to understand some strategy like using types to their advantage and they're only beating the game through sheer force... than I question what experience are they getting? Because that doesn't sound like a worth wild experience, that just sounds like they're button mashing through the game. Those kids sound too young to be playing the game if you want me to be honest, they'd sound to just be happy playing any game as long as it has bright colors and sound effects.

When I first played Red back in 1999, I could barely read; all I knew about the games were that they had cool little monsters and that everyone else at school had the games. That was all it took to pique the interest of a little kid who was in kindergarten. Although I did catch some other Pokémon, I only really used my starter (Squirtle), and I ultimately soft-locked myself at Giovanni when I traded off my starter for my friend’s Magmar. Having nothing of a decent level to take him on, I grew frustrated with the game and ended up putting it down for like a month before I picked it back up and restarted the save.

With that story aside, you have to remember that every new generation of Pokémon brings in new, young players to the franchise, whether they pick up the games on their own or are grandfathered in by the older generation players who are now parents. Are some of those kids old enough to understand the basic strategies of the game? Yeah probably. Are some of those kids too young to really understand what they are doing? Yeah probably.

Edit: Just to be clear, I don’t disagree with the notion that the main games should be more challenging. I just don’t think forced level caps during the main story would be the best way to go about it

 

[Pikachu315111]

...how is that dumbing down the game? It’s what the games are running with right now, and it’s working just fine. The Pokémon games today are a lot more story-focused, especially compared to the stories of the older generations. Now whether the shift to story focused games are a good thing for the series or not is a matter or personal opinion, but it’s happening right now in a way that doesn’t infringe on someone’s ability to speedrun through the game if they so desire. If anything, a level cap system could potentially pull focus away from the story if it isn’t handled properly.

First all, yes, focusing on story and world building is a good thing and keeps a franchise fresh and feeling alive. It keeps the games from feeling its jut doing the same thing except adding new Pokemon, Moves, Abilities, and gimmicks.

As for appealing to players who don't care about the main game and only want to get through it to get to the post game to do something that the majority of Pokemon players, like those young players, don't really care about may dumb down things. To those players story is meaningless and any additional features (Pokemon Contests, Pokeathlon, Pokestar Studios, Mantine Surfing, Pokemon Refresh, Photo Club) which isn't battling is unneeded and a distraction. If it was up to them or GF decided to appeal to them they would toss all that out, leaving in MAYBE world building just to have a region for new Pokemon to exist in.

And speed runs don't work like that! Speed runs is a game by game basis. You're trying to complete the game as fast as possible within the game's rules and limits. If there were level caps that's something speed runners would have to work with, they're not going to go "oh man, Sun & Moon didn't have level caps" because these are different games so would have different speed run times anyway! If anything it'll provide speed runners with an interesting challenge, trying to find the best Pokemon to use if they can't just sheer force their way to victory.

You see, if Game Freak were the ones with that mentality, then they would effectively push away a huge chunk of the VGC community (which is a lot bigger than you think it is). You have to remember that Pokémon is a franchise that appeals to a broad audience, which consists of several sub-groups that fit into either the “casual players” or “competitive players” category. Alienating one of those groups for the sake of the other would cause a fallout for both the games and the fanbase.

... Why? Why would it push away the VGC community? Because they may have to *GASP* spend a WEEK finishing the game instead of THREE DAYS?! Because they wouldn't be able to get to the post game a few days earlier than they would... if that's even the case which probably wouldn't; most players would probably finish it around the same time as they usually do.

BTW, is this the same VGC community that's been wanting to make the games a bit more challenging? Like more difficult AI for important characters? Something which might make the game last longer?

Also, it's not like GF cares for their time either. Do I have to point out all the hoops one must jump through for the Legendary Hunts in ORAS and USUM? Or how Gift Pokemon aren't affected by Synchronize. And even if you get the right Nature that still leaves IVs up to chance (yes, Hyper Training helped with that but it doesn't help with Hidden Power or those mons you have to have 0 Attack and/or Speed). Also those Pokemon with either low encounter rates or catch rates (and some who have moves that'll knock themselves out). Ooh, or how about SOS Battles?

Game Freak has proven before that it is entirely possible to balance the medium between casual and competitive players (look at HGSS for instance), and if USUM were any indication, they are trying to make the in-game story more challenging for veterans of the franchise. But the median between the fanbase is very easy to disrupt if it isn’t handled properly.

True, and you know what, if they try level caps and it doesn't work, they'll just remove them next gen (or even release a patch that removes them for that gen)! If we're so afraid any change will disrupt the balance then why change anything? Change is needed to keep a franchise fresh and healthy. Some changes work and kept in, some changes don't work so aren't kept. But we don't know if we don't try, do an experiment. Also I don't think one little mistake, which this would be if it doesn't work out, is gonna sink POKEMON. Heck, players still give Sonic and Mario slack when they release lackluster games...

When I first played Red back in 1999, I could barely read; all I knew about the games were that they had cool little monsters and that everyone else at school had the games. That was all it took to pique the interest of a little kid who was in kindergarten. Although I did catch some other Pokémon, I only really used my starter (Squirtle), and I ultimately soft-locked myself at Giovanni when I traded off my starter for my friend’s Magmar. Having nothing of a decent level to take him on, I grew frustrated with the game and ended up putting it down for like a month before I picked it back up and restarted the save.

With that story aside, you have to remember that every new generation of Pokémon brings in new, young players to the franchise, whether they pick up the games on their own or are grandfathered in by the older generation players who are now parents. Are some of those kids old enough to understand the basic strategies of the game? Yeah probably. Are some of those kids too young to really understand what they are doing? Yeah probably.

You just countered your own point. Yes, you got frustrated and quit the game for the month... but then you went back and tried again. Why did you go back? According to what you said, you should have quit Pokemon and never looked back.

Also, that's a different problem AND a problem that wouldn't exist with level caps. Tell me, if you saw your main Pokemon wasn't getting any stronger but your other Pokemon were, wouldn't you decide to start training them? With your parable, you gave away probably your only Pokemon that was leveled up (which I doubt you would have been able to beat the Elite Four and Champion without being severely overleveled).

Also, you're assuming the kid has to finish the game in order to enjoy it. Here's my parable: I never completed my Blue, Silver, and Sapphire version. Why? Because I only trained my Starter (all the Fire-types, BTW). With Blue & Sapphire I got to the Elite Four though was never able to beat Claire in Silver. Luckily my brother and schoolmates played the game so I did get to see the endings and post game. Yet, I fell in love the series. I didn't need to finish the games to like them, I have fond memories getting as far as I did, and when I finally did beat Cynthia in Diamond and became Champion with a sort of more balanced team (still focused on my Infernape but I did have a Manaphy and Dialga backing him up... I beat Gen V's Elite Four without Legendaries and a fully trained, balance team) it felt as great as if I had done it as a kid (I was 17 at the time).

Edit: Just to be clear, I don’t disagree with the notion that the main games should be more challenging. I just don’t think forced level caps during the main story would be the best way to go about it

And with that I think we should agree to disagree. I think we both presented both our cases, we're not convincing the other, and our posts are beginning to get long. And in the ends it's up to GF who do seem to agree with your opinion that they don't need level caps... but we all agree they should find some way to provide the game some more challenge (I do think that they should focus on the post game more anyway, the Battle Tower has gotten a bit bland and could use some new additions (I say at least add Rentals, Little Cup, and Inverse Mode), also have something like the White Treehollow/Black Tower).

 

[Xen]

Last post on the matter since yeah, the posts are getting pretty long and it would be best to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

First all, yes, focusing on story and world building is a good thing and keeps a franchise fresh and feeling alive. It keeps the games from feeling its jut doing the same thing except adding new Pokemon, Moves, Abilities, and gimmicks.

As for appealing to players who don't care about the main game and only want to get through it to get to the post game to do something that the majority of Pokemon players, like those young players, don't really care about may dumb down things. To those players story is meaningless and any additional features (Pokemon Contests, Pokeathlon, Pokestar Studios, Mantine Surfing, Pokemon Refresh, Photo Club) which isn't battling is unneeded and a distraction. If it was up to them or GF decided to appeal to them they would toss all that out, leaving in MAYBE world building just to have a region for new Pokemon to exist in.

And speed runs don't work like that! Speed runs is a game by game basis. You're trying to complete the game as fast as possible within the game's rules and limits. If there were level caps that's something speed runners would have to work with, they're not going to go "oh man, Sun & Moon didn't have level caps" because these are different games so would have different speed run times anyway! If anything it'll provide speed runners with an interesting challenge, trying to find the best Pokemon to use if they can't just sheer force their way to victory.

You’re blowing my point way out of proportion now; if it wasn’t clear enough in my last post, I agree world building is good (and necessary), and no way am I advocating undoing the progress the games have made over the past few years.

Further accommodations for those who just want the post-game aren’t necessary, outside of maybe skippable cutscenes and no forced tutorials (which lets be honest, we all could use that). But in the same manner that I think it’s a bad idea to strip down the games for people who only care about the more competitive aspects, it isn’t necessarily fair to restrict the option of a quick playthrough to those players either if there are better alternatives.

... Why? Why would it push away the VGC community? Because they may have to *GASP* spend a WEEK finishing the game instead of THREE DAYS?! Because they wouldn't be able to get to the post game a few days earlier than they would... if that's even the case which probably wouldn't; most players would probably finish it around the same time as they usually do.

BTW, is this the same VGC community that's been wanting to make the games a bit more challenging? Like more difficult AI for important characters? Something which might make the game last longer?

Also, it's not like GF cares for their time either. Do I have to point out all the hoops one must jump through for the Legendary Hunts in ORAS and USUM? Or how Gift Pokemon aren't affected by Synchronize. And even if you get the right Nature that still leaves IVs up to chance (yes, Hyper Training helped with that but it doesn't help with Hidden Power or those mons you have to have 0 Attack and/or Speed). Also those Pokemon with either low encounter rates or catch rates (and some who have moves that'll knock themselves out). Ooh, or how about SOS Battles?

Considering VGC is a very time-sensitive meta, not getting to the post-game a few days earlier could literally be the difference between someone participating and garnering enough CP to compete in worlds, or someone who doesn’t make the cut because they weren’t able to participate in enough IRL events. Not everyone buys the games on day 1, nor does everyone have the time to spare from their IRL duties to sink several hours worth of gameplay in a relatively short timeframe. A lot of spare time will also be sunk in obtaining Pokémon, as you pointed out.

Speaking of obtaining legends and other Pokémon, yes the RNG aspect of it still makes the process a load of BS at times, but it’s a hundred times better than it used to be in the likes of Gen IV and V. Breeding is a faster endeavor now, especially with USUM’s freebie Dittos, and SOS battles make EV training a cinch as well as kickstarting breeding projects. The Ultra Warp Ride is an annoying step back from Gen VI’s portals, but getting competitive legendaries still takes less time between Synchronize, 3+ max IVs, and Hyper Training.

That being said, it’s easier and a little less time consuming, but it still requires time to be alloted in order to catch/breed and train (which is why hacking is still rampant in the community). Maybe in the future this process will continue to be streamlined and thus make the idea of a slower playthrough less of an issue.

You just countered your own point. Yes, you got frustrated and quit the game for the month... but then you went back and tried again. Why did you go back? According to what you said, you should have quit Pokemon and never looked back.

Also, that's a different problem AND a problem that wouldn't exist with level caps. Tell me, if you saw your main Pokemon wasn't getting any stronger but your other Pokemon were, wouldn't you decide to start training them? With your parable, you gave away probably your only Pokemon that was leveled up (which I doubt you would have been able to beat the Elite Four and Champion without being severely overleveled).

Also, you're assuming the kid has to finish the game in order to enjoy it. Here's my parable: I never completed my Blue, Silver, and Sapphire version. Why? Because I only trained my Starter (all the Fire-types, BTW). With Blue & Sapphire I got to the Elite Four though was never able to beat Claire in Silver. Luckily my brother and schoolmates played the game so I did get to see the endings and post game. Yet, I fell in love the series. I didn't need to finish the games to like them, I have fond memories getting as far as I did, and when I finally did beat Cynthia in Diamond and became Champion with a sort of more balanced team (still focused on my Infernape but I did have a Manaphy and Dialga backing him up... I beat Gen V's Elite Four without Legendaries and a fully trained, balance team) it felt as great as if I had done it as a kid (I was 17 at the time).

Fair enough. I could see level caps solving that issue, provided that there are good options for level grinding for more underleveled party members.

 

[Siggu]

People who don't care about story and only care about competitive won't care about story no matter what you do. Ask Blizzard.

It's better to just appeal those who do care.

 

[Pikachu315111]

But in the same manner that I think it’s a bad idea to strip down the games for people who only care about the more competitive aspects, it isn’t necessarily fair to restrict the option of a quick playthrough to those players either if there are better alternatives.

This should be why there should be difficulty levels, they can play on the lowest difficulty just to whiz past the story.

Fair enough. I could see level caps solving that issue, provided that there are good options for level grinding for more underleveled party members.

Well another thing with level caps is so you wouldn't need to level grind as much if at all, it's to encourage to keep all your Pokemon on equal level with each other.

Also level grinding is more of a post game issue where there would be no level cap.

People who don't care about story and only care about competitive won't care about story no matter what you do. Ask Blizzard.

It's better to just appeal those who do care.

In my opinion its better to make a game that'll last the test of time than just being an expansion pack.

 

[Kurona]

Unpopular opinion:

I think ORAS's postgame actually as a lot going for it.

It has:

• The Delta Episode
• Tons of wormholes for legendary Pokemon and possibly shiny hunt for them.
• Fun secret bases you can battle good NPCs in twice per day each (I recommend trying out this secret base)
• While it'll be the most lacking battle facility since Gen 2, the Battle Maison is still something to try.
• Tons of extra Pokemon in the Hoenn region you can hunt for and catch.
• Unlike XY the Pokemon League improved in the postgame, as it did in Gens 4 and 5
• Soaring In The Sky, because why not.
• Player Search System
• Super Training
• Pokemon Amie

A lot of this is extremely basic -- a multiplayer system, a way to train your Pokémon and some extra Pokémon to catch is not exactly anything to get very excited about. There's no new areas to really explore like in BW, Platinum, FRLG or HGSS and the Delta Episode... maybe this is my unpopular opinion, but I'd count the Delta Episode as a negative. If you're going to extrapolate basic features like this then I could say that any postgame has a lot going for it. In RBY's postgame you've got a whole dungeon full of rare high-level Pokémon, you're able to grind off of those, you can trade/battle with your friends AND you've got a cool Legendary to catch!

 

[Sondero]

A lot of this is extremely basic -- a multiplayer system, a way to train your Pokémon and some extra Pokémon to catch is not exactly anything to get very excited about. There's no new areas to really explore like in BW, Platinum, FRLG or HGSS and the Delta Episode... maybe this is my unpopular opinion, but I'd count the Delta Episode as a negative. If you're going to extrapolate basic features like this then I could say that any postgame has a lot going for it. In RBY's postgame you've got a whole dungeon full of rare high-level Pokémon, you're able to grind off of those, you can trade/battle with your friends AND you've got a cool Legendary to catch!

Mentioning standard features doesn't invalidate all the things OR/AS did well. The amount of Legendaries in OR/AS was massive for its time. Every single non-mythical legend from gen 2 to 5 were catchable, and they even made Deoxys catchable outside of an event.
Secret bases really benefit from being online rather than local only.
The Day-care setup could pretty much only be better if it had the IV checking system of Gen 7 (and have the HP checker in that place as well). Having the Infinite loop, Day-Care, Move tutor and IV checker in the same place was great.

There may not be that much story material, the Delta Episode is pretty filler-tastic until the end of it, but there are a bunch of things to do, still.

 

[Kurona]

Mentioning standard features doesn't invalidate all the things OR/AS did well. The amount of Legendaries in OR/AS was massive for its time. Every single non-mythical legend from gen 2 to 5 were catchable, and they even made Deoxys catchable outside of an event.
Secret bases really benefit from being online rather than local only.
The Day-care setup could pretty much only be better if it had the IV checking system of Gen 7 (and have the HP checker in that place as well). Having the Infinite loop, Day-Care, Move tutor and IV checker in the same place was great.

There may not be that much story material, the Delta Episode is pretty filler-tastic until the end of it, but there are a bunch of things to do, still.

I do acknowledge that there's some things to do, I just think the list was bolstered by stuff like the PSS which makes ORAS' aftergame look more impressive... for having the standard multiplayer feature of trading and battling.
The PSS was awesome and I'd like to have it back, but it's something I'd hesitate to call a feature that makes ORAS' aftergame good. Though I suppose it also depends how one would define 'aftergame' -- I personally separate multiplayer/competitive specific features which wouldn't improve gameplay otherwise from it, eg. how good your battle/trade system is, daycare improvements, ease of getting IVs and EVs etc. Basically, the more casual aspects -- even more important now the metagame has shifted to Gen 7.

 

[Nix_Hex]

Sun and Moon in-game is an absolutely infuriating experience. I'll start with the good: It's beautiful, the music is great, and there are a lot of decent Pokemon to pick from. But what I dislike so much about them is that they are bogged down with dialogue. This has actually been a gripe of mine since BW2. And if I was apathetic about what's his face's stolen Purrloin, I sure as shit am not interested in Hau's addiction to Malasada. I overlooked the dialogue issue when I got Sun because I was enamored with the game (and didn't have a job so I had more time) but I stopped playing Ultra Moon about halfway through because I was sick of cut scenes every time I entered a new route or town. My hours are precious. I get home at 7 and I turn off games at 9 on neurologist's orders. I also eat dinner. Slaughtering trainers with Wishiwashi is great stress relief, don't get me wrong, but the endless button mashing through the dull storyline actually adds to the stress.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

I... Did not expect that much discussion about the level caps tbh. Sorry about that.

In other rather unpopular opinions, R/S/E Hoenn does not have too much water. However, it does have too many Surf-based segments clumped together.

I'll explain: There is no balance. You explore the majority of Hoenn's landmass before getting Surf. Then you cross those 4, 5 tiles of water after getting Surf, (A bit more if you did New Mauville as soon as possible.) and get to Fortree.

Technically, you can do the abandoned ship stuff right after getting Surf. That will leave you overleveled for Winona in most cases, unless you were pretty underleveled against Norman. My point is, people tend to skip it. Especially if they don't need the Ice Beam TM to snipe Altaria.

Right after you go to Mt. Pyre, you will see a few hours of almost nothing but sea routes except for places like the Team "Dumb as Bricks" Base and a few gyms. Then you get more surfing and diving until you reach that obnoxious Victory road.
Needing Flash in Victory Road is just aggravating, you're strapped for HM's as is. And people thought Sinnoh was bad.

And speaking of which... Sinnoh wasn't that bad.

Yes, Sinnoh had a bunch of HM's. (And Flash, but it's a TM and you almost never need it.) So what? The number of HM's you need in a reasonable basis isn't high at all.

Defog is used in what, one route? Cut and Rock Smash are easily handled by Bidoof, and you won't even need to worry about getting one too much since you can find it close to where you get Cut and in the very first route. By the time you can get Bibarel, you probably don't even need Cut anymore.

Even Mt. Coronet is reasonable with its HM use. Mainly because you need just a few HM's for each section you want to explore. I'll stick to the climactic climb to stop Cyrus since this is the one people get salty about. You need Surf, Rock Climb, Strength, maybe Rock Smash too?

Surf is something most people already have on their team. It's a strong move and a commonly used field move. You don't even have access to Waterfall at this point, so there really isn't a reason to complain about it.

Strength is a pretty strong and drawback-free normal move. And so is Rock Climb. If you don't want to use them in your main team, it's understandable, but having to teach them isn't going to cripple anyone or just waste a moveslot.

Rock Smash is the only really bad HM in that list. I can't remember if you need it though, but that's not the point.

You know who learns all of these moves? Bibarel! Optimized HM Slave Moveset. Awesome. (Golduck or something like that too, but nobody cares.)

Sinnoh wasn't terrible with HM's at all and it was a great region full of good, strong pokémon for a in-game run. It was easily one of the best regions.


Last Unpopular Opinion of this post: Stealth Rock is way too strong. Defog doesn't really help since most things that learn it are Flying-Types and get hit hard by it. The other hazards aren't nearly as strong as Sneaky Pebbles and it simply is a soft-ban for a ton of Pokémon.

 

[Siggu]

Even with Bibarel, Sinnoh is atrocious in terms of HMs because you still have to waste a team slot just on something that only has HM moves.

The only region to do the HM model right is Unova (of course, excluding Alola's lack of HMs). You are only forced to use Cut once (and in BW2, you never have to use it), Strength is super-useful for shortcuts but it's ultimately not mandatory, and Surf is only required for a small section in BW2 (and in BW, it's completely optional). Same for Waterfall and Dive.

Last Unpopular Opinion of this post: Stealth Rock is way too strong. Defog doesn't really help since most things that learn it are Flying-Types and get hit hard by it. The other hazards aren't nearly as strong as Sneaky Pebbles and it simply is a soft-ban for a ton of Pokémon.

How is this one unpopular?