Also just noticed that neither Latias nor Latios are on the list. Think you should be more concerned about those mons than something that would rank in E-tier.
I wouldn't mind writing it. I think it adds some value insofar as an analysis would allow it to be added to the viability rankings and thus make this list a comprehensive one, which it ought to be. As the OP states,It was a rhetorical question. What you're doing is nitpicking over something no one wants to dedicate time towards, because it adds 0 value to the tier.
I think it's pretty clear that this section is meant to be for Pokemon that are unviable in the Ubers metagame, but are Ubers by tiering. How exactly does Zygarde-50% not fit this bill?If you missed the intro explaining this, D rank is for Pokemon deemed unviable in the Ubers metagame, but are Ubers by tiering. There is no viability ordering on these Pokemon for this reason, so use them at your own risk.
Neither Latias nor Latios are Ubers by tiering, and are therefore not obligated to have analyses.Also just noticed that neither Latias nor Latios are on the list. Think you should be more concerned about those mons than something that would rank in E-tier.
Scizor is notable for offensive momentum based playstyles which abuse U-Turn and the fact that it lures in certain mons (Primal don, Ho-Oh, etc.) which gives it a notable niche, as well as more viably running a bulky boosting Curse set due to its decent enough priority attack. Comparing it with Dusk Mane like this only considers it as a Xern check, something which overlooks these qualities and is in fact the only real way they overlap. Niche options like Pursuit are notable as well, giving it enough of a presence to not be overshadowed.Scizor should definitely be demoted to B or B-, the only thing it does is check Xerneas and that's not necessary since we have DM Necrozma doing it 10x better, and more. Not to mentioned Scizor is OHKO by HP fire anyway, unlike DM Necrozma.
Ferro still checks spout/sub ogre with bullet seed, it deserves it's place in A-Just saw some of these posts but the only one I agree with is Scizor from A- to B. I'm not sure why it's ranked so high. With standard geoxern becoming more common now it can't even check it properly without the risk of getting hp fired. It provides some utility, momentum as a u-turner, and the curse set does really well vs stall, but is that really enough for A(-)? I feel like with everything and their mother now having access to defog, that niece is also gone. I guess the toxic immunity is nice, but that's about where it ends. So to state again, Mscizor from A- to B or B-
As for the Waterceus mention, I think it's fine where it is, especially with it being one of the more solid rp don answers and probably the most reliable arceus on any balance, besides groundceus.
Yveltal I think is fine where it is at the top of A+, as fairies are still very prominent, and pretty much on every team even if yveltal wasn't present.
I feel like Nagandel should move up to top of B or even somewhere in the bottom/middle of B+, as it shreds apart balance with the right support, and once it has a speedboost offense says pretty much goodbye as well.
I don't really see the point of arceus-grass in this gen besides checking pogre and non-cm waterceus, so I suggest to put it down in C with Arceus-Dragon and Poison.
I also believe that with the right support an offensive arceus-ice can be a threat, despite the presence of dusk-mane, to rank it somewhere in C- as opposed to D.
Edit: Move Ferro down to top/mid B+ as spout ogre is getting more and more common, along with the aforementioned geoxern. It defenitely has a good place in this metagame, but I don't agree with the top of A- It's bottom of A- at best.
I was going to mention this - I think we should aim for consistency when we can, especially when it takes very little effort to attain. You’re completely right, but as far as VR discussion goes, the renaming of Zygarde-C on this list to Zygarde to, in a sense, “reunite” both formes is the correct move, so props for Nayrz for that. I think integrating the analysis pages is the correct next step.The only thing that would make remotely sense would be to update the Zygarde's Smogon Articles so that the Complete Forme loses it's own page and is just integrated into the other formes pages (like how Ultra Necrozma or Mega Evolutions are). But that's not really VR discussion.
The discussion isn’t about Substitute Kyogre; it’s about Water Spout. As the others have mentioned, Ferrothorn can’t be considered a counter to CM+Water Spout Kyogre when it takes over half on switch-in.Ferro still checks spout/sub ogre with bullet seed, it deserves it's place in A-
And it can't do BS if it doesn't carry a grass move, and even then it's not reliable. It's still a check to the other sets tho.The discussion isn’t about Substitute Kyogre; it’s about Water Spout. As the others have mentioned, Ferrothorn can’t be considered a counter to CM+Water Spout Kyogre when it takes over half on switch-in.
Bullet seed ferro sounds like a sub-optimal set and also isn't a switch-in... and it doesn't check ogre anymore than the power whip set does. I'll repeat myself again, ferrothorn's main niche is being able to switch-in to primal kyogre and xerneas, and both of those got to a degree compromised, making it just a spiker that loses to ho-oh.Ferro still checks spout/sub ogre with bullet seed, it deserves it's place in A-
Bullet seed ferro is a set, I personally use it and I feel it's very good, but never mind me. I'm not good, I've only peaked ladder three times this past month. I'll take your word for it.Bullet seed ferro is not a set and also isn't a switch-in... and it doesn't check ogre anymore than the power whip set does. I'll repeat myself again, ferrothorn's main niche is being able to switch-in to primal kyogre and xerneas, and both of those got to a degree compromised, making it just a spiker that loses to ho-oh.
Can we put requirements on being allowed to post in here or something or just lock the whole thing? Surely it's not just my head and I who want to be driven through a brick wall after some of these posts right?
Bullet seed ferro is a set, I personally use it and I feel it's very good, but never mind me. I'm not good, I've only peaked ladder three times this past month. I'll take your word for it.
The only reason to ever run it is if you're scared of sub ogre, which I don’t think is that common. Maybe people abuse it on ladder, not sure. I personally haven’t seen it anywhere and feel like it’s a sub-par set. I’m not trying to be elitist, but what I gather from this thread is that people just post (and sometimes agree with each other) without thinking much over it. I feel like this could in fact be harmful to new players, as they gather false believes about the tier.i think if things like goth / msab were more popular in the metagame atm id be more keen on bullet seed. theres probably still merit in covering those mus even if they are uncommon; but there’s still that cost of pwhip/gyro being better in just about every other mu for ferro.
i’m more inclined to agree with lacus tho on overall ferro viability. i think another hurtful factor for the durian is the ho-oh upswing atm. still, tho, spikes is such a broken ass move and theres always going to be ferro food mons seeing some usage. maybe the real take is looking at how the best ho-oh switch ins are commonly large ferro bait. also even if kyogre is running spout, or perhaps moreso, having ferro around to give u that little bit extra switching room could be nice for fatter builds.
i don’t think an elitist attitude is a good idea for the thread; vr is a very far cry from an exact science and it exists primarily as a tool or newer / unfamiliar players interested in the metagame. id argue the same is true for discussion on vr as well.
No.Does Aura Break, in fact, have any conceivable niche over Power Construct?
I'm not sure how you managed to glean elitism from any of my posts, as they honestly seem quite the opposite, but I'll address your points anyway. The Zygarde posts were just a call for consistency, which could have been assuaged with a brief analysis and listing on the VR thread, or by combining the listings of both formes on the VR listing. If you notice, I wasn't even the one who began the discussion regarding Zygarde; I merely gave my support for someone else's point, while merely defending myself when you attacked my posts as being useless. Anyway, the issue has been fixed for the most part now, so I think talking any more about this matter is unproductive.As for the post right above me, I feel like from what I’ve read you’re doing exactly what you call “elitism” without being elitist. The zygarde posts where as far of a cry from productive and valuable as anything. Also to adress the ferro not being a xern check, this claim is false. It’s not a geoxern check, it checks about every other set out there, apart from something like the very uncommon hp fire pixie plate. Possibly hp fire specs as well, but it would require some predicting to get rid of it.
I listed the merits of Bullet Seed Ferrothorn already, and they eclipse merely being insurance against Substitute Primal Kyogre. Bullet Seed Ferrothorn is also able to help to break through Mega Sableye lacking Will-O-Wisp, as in conjunction with Iron Barbs damage, you're able to PP stall its Recovers. Apart from that, I think being able to break through Substitute sweepers more consistently than the other options is justification enough for it to be considered a viable set. As I said, it has been used in well-respected Ubers tours, and if you still feel that it is, in your own words, "not a set," I'm not sure what to tell you, other than to urge you to try it yourself.The only reason to ever run it is if you're scared of sub ogre,
The thing is, Ferrothorn doesn't need Gyro Ball to beat either of these sets. Gyro Ball Ferrothorn doesn't win any Fairy matchups that Bullet Seed Ferrothorn also doesn't win.as for the utility of whip / gyro. Gyro’s main appeals are non-geo xern sets and killing cm fairyceus when u opt to not run toxic in favor of protect.(or u fight refresh fairy)
Mega Gengar almost never, ever runs either of these moves in USM.it dissuades potential focus blast / hp fire mega gengar from harding into ur ferrothorn freely
This'll honestly be the last post I make here cause I can't be asked to keep repeating and explaining myself anymore (not directed at you MM). As far as I'm aware Msab pretty much always runs Will-o-Wisp, so that point is almost void, but I suppose it's some sort of niche? As for goth, honestly, just run shed shell if you're worried about the mon. The trade-off just seems not worth it.for clarification, bullet seed lets u pp stall goth and non-wisp Msab (you might beat wisp too? idr) which are otherwise problematic mus for ferro. personally i value that higher than a slightly better subogre mu (whip isn’t bad vs subogre or anything) although atm these pokemon are very rarely used.
as for the utility of whip / gyro. Gyro’s main appeals are non-geo xern sets and killing cm fairyceus when u opt to not run toxic in favor of protect.(or u fight refresh fairy) more importantly, though, it dissuades potential focus blast / hp fire mega gengar from harding into ur ferrothorn freely. pwhip is when u want to grass stab but prefer actual dmg to pp stalling currently niche threats. a concrete example is bullet seed needing to hit 4/5 times (each) to threaten groundceus with a 2hko; something pwhip has better odds of doing even with accuracy included. in general, even with misses factored in, ur average dmg from pwhip exceeds all but 5hits of bullet seed.
This is simply not true, at least in USM. Toxic is far more common than Will-O-Wisp on Mega Sableye.As far as I'm aware Msab pretty much always runs Will-o-Wisp
If you run Shed Shell on Ferrothorn, then you're missing out on very important Leftovers recovery. You still haven't explained why it's not worth it to run Bullet Seed, when Bullet Seed gives several advantages over Power Whip apart from beating Gothitelle, as I've already mentioned.As for goth, honestly, just run shed shell if you're worried about the mon.
Leech Seed makes switching into Ferrothorn costly, and helps Ferrothorn's teammate make the switch-in to the faster threat in question far more manageable.Non-gyro gives almost free switch-ins to fast offensive threats like Unecro, scarf Yveltal, etc.
It's true that Ferrothorn is a Spikes user that loses to Ho-Oh, but in any matchup lacking Ho-Oh, it very easily abuses Spikes, Leech Seed, and Toxic, and also serves a strong role in a team's general defensive backbone, even Spikes notwithstanding. The prevalence of Defog in USM doesn't make Spikes-centered teams necessarily less viable to a considerable degree, as evidenced by Spikes's prevalence in the Ubers tournament scene as of late.Ferro's mainly just a spiker that loses to Ho-oh, in a metagame where it is very present, on top of almost every pokemon being able to learn defog these days.