Honestly, Hawlucha is actually quite threating if it gets the chance to set up. Definitely, one of the biggest threats in the meta when it comes to set up sweepers.
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Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread
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Fully Agree on this. Checking Tapu Koko and Kartana, two extremely common pokemon in this meta is also a good thing. Not being able to get toxic'd is or absorb toxic spikes ( as you said ) , so that ensures good longevity. It resists some common types and can check some very common pokemon. ( Tapu Bulu, Greninja, Greninja-Ash, Keldeo, Tangrowth, slightly Toxapex, and Heatran ( if AV + Stoping Tantrum ). Assault Vest makes it almost impossible to kill if you are a special attacker. Since Tapu Koko is still rising and Kartana is rising as well, this is beneficial for it. It seems like this thing will slightly benefit as the meta slowly favors some Pokemon it checks. Not saying it will move to B+ immediately, but B is perfect for it right now. I completely agree with your nomination of Amoonguss from C+ to B.Amoonguss C+ - > B
big jump but amoonguss is hella legit atm and everyone knows what it does
Checks kartana, tapu koko, absorbs tspikes. Ultra high Kartana usage makes it especially legit. AV Stomping Tantrum is also not a meme and lures Heatran nicely. On top of this, it fills in for pex in beating stuff like ash gren. Both Black Sludge and AV are hot and reasonably splashable.
Noticed this during some sets vr discussion, C+ is way too low for this mon when stuff like Alo is in B.
Edit: B- also works too I guess.
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Disagree with Amoonguss jumping all the way into B. Amoonguss is in an awkward spot right now between being a Grass-type and a Poison-type. I'll concede that it has uses - it's a bit better at checking Kartana as a prime example than Tangrowth (though for the record this thing also takes a pretty hefty amount from +2 AoP), but Bulu and Tangrowth also have the perks of being a bit better at checking most standard Zygarde sets (DD sets have opted for Groundium sometimes, and the only thing Bulu really fears from Band is Iron Tail which is an awkward move to lock onto with a high chance of missing or some other off-sets which aren't used significantly enough at the moment or are in niche teams like Screens). For Poison-types we have the obvious Toxapex which fulfills the roles of a defensive Pokemon that can absorb Toxic Spikes so much better than Amoonguss under the majority of circumstances as well. Alomomola is also a lot easier to slot into teams I feel than Amoonguss, which only fits on some of the more niche teams that don't necessarily need Zygarde answers as it's supplemented elsewhere (best example I have with this is probably teams with Mew or Lefties Lando-T). Alomomola has more optimal teammates like Gliscor to back it up anyway as far as clearing out Toxic Spikes or Mega Venusaur which pairs alright with it.
I'll at least concede that Amoonguss is probably fine for B- in the long run, but B seems to be a huge overreach when it's a Pokemon that's still plagued with issues fitting on teams effectively without there being better options and configurations. I also wouldn't put it above a tier for Pokemon like Mamoswine which are awkward to fit in and have mediocrity issues, but have a significant threat presence against some teams, or Mew which isn't as good as it was in earlier iterations of SM (post-Metagross ban), but still is fairly significant at checking some sleeper threats while being alright in its roles as a defensive Defogger, Stealth Rock user, or using a combination of Ice Beam / Earth(quake / Power).
Thunder Pwoell :
If you need that post undeleted feel free to just toss the replays to me, and I'll undelete it.
I'll at least concede that Amoonguss is probably fine for B- in the long run, but B seems to be a huge overreach when it's a Pokemon that's still plagued with issues fitting on teams effectively without there being better options and configurations. I also wouldn't put it above a tier for Pokemon like Mamoswine which are awkward to fit in and have mediocrity issues, but have a significant threat presence against some teams, or Mew which isn't as good as it was in earlier iterations of SM (post-Metagross ban), but still is fairly significant at checking some sleeper threats while being alright in its roles as a defensive Defogger, Stealth Rock user, or using a combination of Ice Beam / Earth(quake / Power).
Thunder Pwoell :
Just so you are aware that I did not delete your post simply because you're Omari P. Replays are needed for Unranked mons to ranked. Please follow the rules with it, and I would high suggest you start at a reasonable rank (C-).
If you need that post undeleted feel free to just toss the replays to me, and I'll undelete it.
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Thunder Pwoell
Banned deucer.
I nominate Mandibuzz to go from UR->C. It's an amazing wall/defogger/disruptor with some nice speed and mixed bulk. It can be special, it can be mixed, it can be defensive and it takes on a lot of mons. You can run taunt, toxic, whirlwind, knock off whatever suits your needs. And depending on your sets you can wall out bad matchups. For example, you can roost stall out banded ttars stone edges (if defensive). You also can take a lot of hits on the opposite side- like roosting off dracos. The best set that has been useful to me has been rocky helmet with max def and some speed. walls pretty easily and can come in on many attacks; definitely deserving a spot.
Taking on Zygarde and winning
Shutting down kart - also lost this game but this is what I meant being reliable at defogging
switching in and killing +2 mega pin
being essential vs stall
walling even with a bad matchup
defogging even though u took a mega maw pr
showing that even its presence causes second guessing
Taking on Zygarde and winning
Shutting down kart - also lost this game but this is what I meant being reliable at defogging
switching in and killing +2 mega pin
being essential vs stall
walling even with a bad matchup
defogging even though u took a mega maw pr
showing that even its presence causes second guessing
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While i do like Hawlucha as a sweeper and it has shown it self to be a threat to many common defensive threats such as the ones you mentioned above,However I feel it is not comparable in strength & reliability to the other A+ sweepers. Hawlucha is a pretty predictable threat and is completely reliant on a tapu (usually tapu koko) to actually be able to sweep as well as that it is crucial that tapu koko or another wallbreaker removes threats such as Zapdos,(Unaware) Clefable, tapu koko, gliscor (if it has facade+SD) and hazers and phazers such as toxapex before Hawlucha can actually sweep through a team late-game, if it does happen to burn its electric seed against these mons it is pretty much useless as a sweeper. Hawlucha simply does not have the utility that other A+ sweepers present against their defensive threats, volcarona for example is able to use z moves to break past toxapex and hidden powers to break past heatran, zygarde can use z moves to remove tangrowth and possibly landorus-t. To summarise (TL:DR) most other offensive pokemon in A+ really only require defog or spike support which in ash greninja's case it can provide for itself and some pokemon in A+ like volcarona,zygarde and tapu lele can use z moves to break through their checks while hawlucha is very reliant on support from its team for it to be able to do its job as a lategame sweeper
To jump off Rashflygon's post, sweepers in A+ like Volcarona can set up many times a match if it is needed. Hawlucha may not have a Stealth Rock weakness, but sometimes certain teams cannot rid the opposing teams of Hawlucha threats. With Volcarona, u choose ur checks, like choosing between HP Ground to deal with Heatran or Psychic to fight Toxapex. Hawlucha's checks will always be checks, lest it run the increasingly niche stone edge. Both are dangerous if left on a sweep without checks or counters, but only one has better versatility throughout the game, and that is Volcarona.
1_TrickPhony
BSS Circuit Co-host
I think the other big issue of Hawlucha as a sweeper is your sheer reliance on your terrain setter. I started using AV bulu over Koko due to the risk of having to keep Koko alive sometimes to have a hope in a game, often to the detriment of the mon I pivot in to. Traditional sweepers will always have the ability to stand on their own feet, you just need to weaken the opposing team with whatever 5 mons you otherwise have, rather than having to weaken checks with the other 5 mons AND keep your terrain alive.
Hawlucha and Volcarona have a couple things in common -- they're boosting sweepers that require modest team support. Specific checks aside, I think they each have pros and cons as offensive Pokemon. To Volcarona's credit, it can set up multiple times a match, while Hawlucha has only one chance. It also has better options for coverage, as it can viably run three offensive moves while Hawlucha often struggles to forego Roost or Substitute in favor of coverage options such as Stone Edge. Furthermore, it doesn't require terrain support and can still function to some level even if its hazard control has been KOed.
On the other hand, Hawlucha is MUCH faster than Volcarona. All it needs to do is switch in, and it suddenly outspeeds the entire unboosted metagame and the majority of the boosted metagame. Volcarona, on the other hand, needs to Quiver Dance at least once to outspeed its targets, and even then, it's still slower than many scarfed Pokemon that can easily pick off a weakened Volc. Volcarona also requires its teammates to either prevent SR from getting setup or remove it themselves. If SR is up, then Volcarona users must sacrifice a turn of momentum in order to get the hazards off the field. Hawlucha may need terrain in order to proc its seed, but terrain is activated as soon as its teammate enters the field. This means Hawlucha players don't have to sacrifice momentum in order to support Hawlucha, which is important for the HO teams on which Hawlucha usually finds itself.
As a boosting sweeper, Hawlucha usually comes out in the lategame. At this stage, players absolutely can't afford to waste a turn on support. With Hawlucha, you don't need to waste a turn on support, as your support can also be an attack--let's say you sack Tapu Koko and use Thunderbolt to weaken or KO an opposing Pokemon. Boom, electric terrain is up and Hawlucha can switch in to do its job. Its attack is lackluster, but its stabs are extremely strong, and the defense boost it gets from the seed often gives it a large enough window to Swords Dance once, at which point a sweep becomes viable. It's also worth noting that Hawlucha doesn't care about entry hazards at all.
I don't think Hawlucha is a perfect Pokemon, but I don't think Volcarona is, either. I think both mons fit firmly in A+.
On the other hand, Hawlucha is MUCH faster than Volcarona. All it needs to do is switch in, and it suddenly outspeeds the entire unboosted metagame and the majority of the boosted metagame. Volcarona, on the other hand, needs to Quiver Dance at least once to outspeed its targets, and even then, it's still slower than many scarfed Pokemon that can easily pick off a weakened Volc. Volcarona also requires its teammates to either prevent SR from getting setup or remove it themselves. If SR is up, then Volcarona users must sacrifice a turn of momentum in order to get the hazards off the field. Hawlucha may need terrain in order to proc its seed, but terrain is activated as soon as its teammate enters the field. This means Hawlucha players don't have to sacrifice momentum in order to support Hawlucha, which is important for the HO teams on which Hawlucha usually finds itself.
As a boosting sweeper, Hawlucha usually comes out in the lategame. At this stage, players absolutely can't afford to waste a turn on support. With Hawlucha, you don't need to waste a turn on support, as your support can also be an attack--let's say you sack Tapu Koko and use Thunderbolt to weaken or KO an opposing Pokemon. Boom, electric terrain is up and Hawlucha can switch in to do its job. Its attack is lackluster, but its stabs are extremely strong, and the defense boost it gets from the seed often gives it a large enough window to Swords Dance once, at which point a sweep becomes viable. It's also worth noting that Hawlucha doesn't care about entry hazards at all.
I don't think Hawlucha is a perfect Pokemon, but I don't think Volcarona is, either. I think both mons fit firmly in A+.
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This exact same thing can be said about Hawlucha, except it has two moves to choose between, Roost or Stone Edge. This sole point is being blown WAY the hell out of proportion. SD + STAB + Stone Edge is more than enough to clean up everything not named Unaware Clefable. However, it requires one to be a bit more intuitive to set up an SD, where as Roost makes setting up much safer. It's not so much "choosing your checks" (implying there's multiple checks no matter what), it's more "choosing whether or not they can check you". It's not like Volcarona who, no matter what the coverage is, has something that can come in safely a majority of the time.
The only "argument" I can see when it comes to Volcarona vs Hawlucha (which is a terrible way to look at why it should or should not rise, but I'll run with it) is the need for terrain. Which, go figure, is also being blown way the hell up. Yes, it does need terrain, but anyone worth their salt isn't going to throw Hawlucha in to sweep before its checks are weakened or taken out, the proper terrain being up is hardly a problem, especially when, all it needs is a safe switch in to guaranteed Terrain. And that is why Koko is so damn popular with it. U-Turn is what makes the two so threatening of a core. U-Turn allows a safe switch in, as well as lets you know whether or not your Terrain is staying up if the opponent tries to get cheeky.
The need for terrain is enough to discuss, talk about that. But if that's a reason for it to remain A, then I can't help but feeling Volc should in turn drop because Rocks being on your side of the field are just as, if not more, detrimental.
At the end of it, I'm more for ranking them on their offensive capabilities alone. They're both extremely potent threats who are very capable of doing their job so long as the person using them isn't trigger happy.
For that alone, I'd be all for Hawlucha rising.
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How can "keeping your terrain active" for Hawlucha be a much more daunting prospect than "keeping rocks off the field" for Volcarona?
If anything, IMO, Hawlucha can find more opportunities to find that lone set-up moment it can use. It has, after all, five turns to come in after your Tapu switches out or is KOed (assuming the opponent does not have a different Tapu of their own, of course), and the Terrain is set up just by having the Tapu switch in (which makes setting it easier), whereas Volcarona needs a teammate to "waste" a turn to clear hazards, and has a lower countdown to switch in before hazards are set again - and Arceus help you if your hazard removers are KOed.
Hawlucha is far more likely to find a chance for a single set-up, whereas Volcarona can find multiple chances to set-up in the single match, though it's not 'that' easy.
I'd say "the need for support compared to something like Volcarona" is not a strong enough argument against a Hawlucha rise.
If anything, IMO, Hawlucha can find more opportunities to find that lone set-up moment it can use. It has, after all, five turns to come in after your Tapu switches out or is KOed (assuming the opponent does not have a different Tapu of their own, of course), and the Terrain is set up just by having the Tapu switch in (which makes setting it easier), whereas Volcarona needs a teammate to "waste" a turn to clear hazards, and has a lower countdown to switch in before hazards are set again - and Arceus help you if your hazard removers are KOed.
Hawlucha is far more likely to find a chance for a single set-up, whereas Volcarona can find multiple chances to set-up in the single match, though it's not 'that' easy.
I'd say "the need for support compared to something like Volcarona" is not a strong enough argument against a Hawlucha rise.
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Hawlucha and Volcarona should really not be compared; they have nothing in common outside of being sweepers. Volcarona can come in and put in work before setting up, while Hawlucha is deadweight until all the conditions required for it to sweep are met. While Hawlucha does have fewer checks than Volcarona, it has a much smaller chance at beating them. Zapdos beats it 100% of the time unless if you are running the niche and suboptimal stone edge, (losing out on the ability to set up on Lando-T hurts a lot). Volcarona meanwhile, has the ability to beat all of its checks except for Chansey and Mantine via HP ground or Z Psychic.
This is not to discredit a possible rise for Hawlucha, but Hawlucha being comparable to Volcarona is not a reason why it should. Now time for a nomination on my own.
Going to nominate Latios back to A-.
IMHO, there wasn't much reason to punish him much further. Latios still offers great role compression to offensive teams and is a great offensive defogger. Even though Latios does suffer from the number of steel types in the tier, Latios appreciates Tyranitar and Scarf Blacephalon taking a hit in usage and effectiveness. Additionally, Latios is one of the few offensive switch-ins to Zapdos, a rising threat. Latios is also a lot better compared to the other B+ mons; Blacephalon requires entry hazard support and either a Ttar lure or heavy countermeasures and faces a lot of competitions from other wall breakers, Venusaur and Tangrowth face very heavy competition from AV Bulu, Rotom Wash faces very heavy competition as a bulky water and defoggers, Keldeo is really bad atm, and overall Latios is a lot more solid than the rest of B+ except for possibly Mega Latios. All of the aforementioned mons are worthy of B+ IMHO, so it makes more sense to move Latios up.
I don't really agree with Thundurus Therian rising. Its offensive sets face too much competition compared to Tapu Koko, and AV is a worse version of Zapdos; being a one-time switchin to Tapu Koko doesn't justify its use.
This is not to discredit a possible rise for Hawlucha, but Hawlucha being comparable to Volcarona is not a reason why it should. Now time for a nomination on my own.
IMHO, there wasn't much reason to punish him much further. Latios still offers great role compression to offensive teams and is a great offensive defogger. Even though Latios does suffer from the number of steel types in the tier, Latios appreciates Tyranitar and Scarf Blacephalon taking a hit in usage and effectiveness. Additionally, Latios is one of the few offensive switch-ins to Zapdos, a rising threat. Latios is also a lot better compared to the other B+ mons; Blacephalon requires entry hazard support and either a Ttar lure or heavy countermeasures and faces a lot of competitions from other wall breakers, Venusaur and Tangrowth face very heavy competition from AV Bulu, Rotom Wash faces very heavy competition as a bulky water and defoggers, Keldeo is really bad atm, and overall Latios is a lot more solid than the rest of B+ except for possibly Mega Latios. All of the aforementioned mons are worthy of B+ IMHO, so it makes more sense to move Latios up.
I don't really agree with Thundurus Therian rising. Its offensive sets face too much competition compared to Tapu Koko, and AV is a worse version of Zapdos; being a one-time switchin to Tapu Koko doesn't justify its use.
Deleted User 400951
Banned deucer.
Just wanna say, I gotta disagree with this. Latios hasn't been that great for a while imo and this drop was a bit overdue. I'm not certain why you say that scarf blace falling off was great for it - yeah no shit it couldn't switch in but the most common set is Scarf Latios which just kills it. Honestly the only real set that has gained a lot of traction has been Scarf - I haven't seen Z-Move Defog in a long time and LO Defog is just not a set. Heatran is seeing more usage by the day and regular Latios has no chance against it. Scizor is also becoming better and better and Latios doesn't hold up there either. Yes, TTar is dropping off but that's just not enough to save it. I'm not one to use win rates often, but for a mon used so much in SPL, it has a notably lower win rate than mons of similar usage, and this should be reflected in a rank lower than mons with a similar usage rate.
Just also wanna say some more things:
-Fully agree with Blace drop, tho Gengar should drop too. Blace is not a consistent enough breaker without significant team support to get rid of Pex and Ttar, and even then, Specs is simply not fast enough to make up for its frailty vs. offense and Scarf is just easily walled. Gar is one sub rank worse than Blace imo and thus should drop accordingly, the speed tier isn't enough, tho taunt and poison stab puts it on a similar level.
-I wanna ask about a potential Ttar drop. I know it just dropped but SPL is showing me that it's really just not that good anymore. Rising amounts of defensive lando t, kart, av bulu, scizor, and in general a shit ton of mons that beat it just really concerns me, and it has had a consistently low win rate thus far. I'm aware that a lot of these were accounted for in the drop but this win rate and these factors are beginning to make me wonder if A is still too much. Not nominating it, just wanna see what people think.
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yeah i know they're not the best, your lando t point touches on this really well. I don't think they're good unless it's a case like this where it's having a significantly worse win rate than other mons with similar usage. Then, it hints at something - especially considering that Latios is having a less than 40% win rate, which is only shared by Ttar in the top 20. It really does hint that maybe teams it fits on aren't that great which is bad for its niche imo. That being said I do believe that you are right and I try to avoid relying on them too much. That being said, I still consider them and I do think that it does hint at Latios overall not being above B+ worthy.
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I will say that if you want to mess with psychic seed, hawlucha actually has a very decent shot at beating zapdos if no prior chip and para
+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 148-175 (38.6 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Zapdos Discharge vs. +1 152 HP / 8 SpD Hawlucha: 204-240 (60.8 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This is of course assuming zapdos isn't running enough speed for lando-t, which i'm sure most do at this point.
Hawlucha has to hit two hjks, keep rocks up vs zapdos, and not get para'd by one discharge (+static sometimes). But yeah beating zapdos without stone edge is possible.
It's kind of silly to say that "The most common check to mon beats it unless mon runs 'niche and suboptimal' coverage move." Stone edge clearly isn't that niche or suboptimal if it allows hawlucha to break through its most common check lmao. Like gee yeah Ferrothorn beats Tapu koko 100% of the time unless you run the "niche and suboptimal" hp fire (oh no you can't hit lando-t anymore!!) but clearly hp fire is a decent option on koko. How can you say "oh yeah zapdos beats hawlucha 100% of the time except when it runs a decent coverage move" and then say "but volcarona can beat all its checks except chansey and mantine haha!" Hawlucha can work around its checks pretty damn well too lol
Also, I think volcarona's ability to "put in work" before setting up is being overstated a little. It can handle scizor, ferro, magearna, celesteela, and tapu bulu pretty well among others, but scizor can u-turn, mag can volt switch, ferro+steela can leech seed+pivot out into fire resist, and bulu can stone edge. Not to mention you're keeping rocks off the field in order to do nothing any other fire mon like heatran couldn't do in the first place. Volcarona is a set-up sweeper first, and a check to all of the above second. I'd argue Volcarona isn't exactly the early/mid-game MVP either, and even Hawlucha has some use other than sweeping in being able to revenge kill threats like gyarados-mega and scarf kartana under terrain.
And as some people above me have already mentioned, "Hawlucha is deadweight until it sweeps" is a pretty silly argument to me as well, as keeping electric terrain up is infinitely easier than keeping rocks off your side of the field, which volcarona needs to, what do you know, not be deadweight! Most effective late-game cleaners are kinda like that: they dont do that much until they need to sweep..
And can anybody really deny how effective hawlucha is at cleaning when it's time to?
Tapu Kokos Hp isn’t exactly the same thing as Stone Edge Hawlucha; Choice Specs Dazzling Gleam does a good chunk to Lando T, so Hp ice is a lot easier to forego than Stone Edge on Hawlucha. Running Stone Edge means Hawlucha can not set up on Lando T and other physical attackers like Kartana as easily. It also has other uses such as letting Hawlucha stay out of range of priority moves. Volcarona isn’t really comparable either; what great move is Volcarona replacing by running Hp ground or Psychic?
I do agree with the rest of your points though.
I agree with almost everything you said, but I dont think SPL win rates are good evidence for a mon rising or dropping. They don’t say if the mon had any impact during the match, if it even got sent out, if it got sacked, etc.
Just as an example, lando has done nothing to prove that it isn’t an S ranked mon, yet it has consistently had a bad win rate in SPL this season.
I feel like it's worth mentioning that with fiery dance and quiver dance Volcorona can manage to beat Chansey in some scenarios
But it all depends on what you are running and chansey is capable of wearing down volcorona, but with a swarm boosted bug buzz after a few turns of FD Chansey should go down and if you are running A Z crystal with Shatterd psyche or Inferno overdrive or Fireuim Z it'll work much better, and considering with Sub its immune to toxic this makes the sub swarm set even better for volc, of course Modest VS Timid also makes a big diffrence when against chansey and I do belive that it's worth it for by passing it. Mantine however is unbreakable unless you are running some jank HP electric set to beat normal gyarados and mantine which genreally isn't that viable due to those two not being as big of a threat as the other checks.
I'm indiffrent to the raise of hawlucha as it's top tier A and shit tier A+
Regarding my previous post regarding amoongus, yeah C+ is a bit too low for it as it is top tier C+ but it's also a meh B- mon and certainly should never rise to B so once again i'm indiffrent to C+ to B- but i'm against B.
I also agree with the drop of Shuckle it's just plain worse than the oth er sticky web setter who can also be a threat aside from setting up webs with a super powerd liquidation making set up sweepers reconsider if they want to set up on this thing and arquagrind isn't worthless when faced with a taunt user due to Magic Coat. Shuckle is worthless when it comes face to face with a pokemon like mega diancie and sableye while many people try to willo wisp arquagrind for some reason and Liquidation is a 2hko against M sableye and ORKOS Diancie. Once it has set up it's things it's done and is worthless, when faced with taunt it's worthless against magic bounce and set up sweepers it's worthless, the only thing it has over arquagrind is rocks and that is enough of a niche to keep it ranked but it should be ranked lower.
Re: Latios rise nom
I disagree with this a lot, and if anything I'd argue that it should drop rather than rising. Tbh, at this point in time, if you're not using Mega Latios in this meta I think you might as well be using Latias unless ur running some shit like CM+Z (which really isn't that good TBH; it's stupidly hard to slot onto teams); Scarf just kinda suffers rn between Sciz/Tar/Koko/Ash Gren being everywhere and abusing the ever-living shit out of it depending on its lock, it not being able to check Volc like it was able to months and months back before people realised just how important Bug Buzz was for it and a few other awkward trends, and just in general it doesn't achieve that much to justify sacrificing Latias' access to Healing Wish IMO (which is way more valuable than the power boost on the types of teams that Scarf Lati is gonna be used on IMO). I find that when I use a scarf Lati it is more for its utility than it is for its ability to actually function as speed control on a team (I'd never run it without another scarfer in the back), and while yes if you run smth like Trick/Defog+T-Wave, Defog+Trick or 3 attacks (STABs+EQ/Surf/HP Fire) then Latios is definitely the better pick, Healing Wish+Trick is just so disproportionately good compared to all of those other options IMO without sacrificing the ability to pick off the things that Scarf Latios is used to pick off, and even Defog+HW sounds more appealing than any of Latios' options in this meta–especially given just how unfair having to beat a Volcarona twice is when running teams without Chansey/Mantine that it can get free/reasonably inexpensive turns against; whether running dual STABs or STAB+EQ to help take advantage of its ability to switch into Heatran, Latias just feels like the more meta-efficient pick, and with Scarfless Latios falling off in favor of Mega Latios, which is just a generally better 'mon in general, I just find myself asking "why bother with this Pokémon?" more and more.
I disagree with this a lot, and if anything I'd argue that it should drop rather than rising. Tbh, at this point in time, if you're not using Mega Latios in this meta I think you might as well be using Latias unless ur running some shit like CM+Z (which really isn't that good TBH; it's stupidly hard to slot onto teams); Scarf just kinda suffers rn between Sciz/Tar/Koko/Ash Gren being everywhere and abusing the ever-living shit out of it depending on its lock, it not being able to check Volc like it was able to months and months back before people realised just how important Bug Buzz was for it and a few other awkward trends, and just in general it doesn't achieve that much to justify sacrificing Latias' access to Healing Wish IMO (which is way more valuable than the power boost on the types of teams that Scarf Lati is gonna be used on IMO). I find that when I use a scarf Lati it is more for its utility than it is for its ability to actually function as speed control on a team (I'd never run it without another scarfer in the back), and while yes if you run smth like Trick/Defog+T-Wave, Defog+Trick or 3 attacks (STABs+EQ/Surf/HP Fire) then Latios is definitely the better pick, Healing Wish+Trick is just so disproportionately good compared to all of those other options IMO without sacrificing the ability to pick off the things that Scarf Latios is used to pick off, and even Defog+HW sounds more appealing than any of Latios' options in this meta–especially given just how unfair having to beat a Volcarona twice is when running teams without Chansey/Mantine that it can get free/reasonably inexpensive turns against; whether running dual STABs or STAB+EQ to help take advantage of its ability to switch into Heatran, Latias just feels like the more meta-efficient pick, and with Scarfless Latios falling off in favor of Mega Latios, which is just a generally better 'mon in general, I just find myself asking "why bother with this Pokémon?" more and more.
I would like to share my support of rising Amoonguss. I dont know why and how it ended up in c+ since it is a solid situational switchin to so many incredible threats such as Kartana, Tapu Koko, Ash-Greninja... the list goes on. I'm glad tour players picked it up in SPL since we plebs gain some credibility now when nomming it back up :^
I'd say it is currently B but closer to B+ than B-. It can fit on a bunch of teams from offense to stall and has quite a bit of choices when it comes to its movepool for a defensive pokemon. Besides blanket checking previously mentioned threats and more it is also able to absorb toxic spikes, keep up momentum via spore and spread other status with stun spore or toxic.
I'd say it is currently B but closer to B+ than B-. It can fit on a bunch of teams from offense to stall and has quite a bit of choices when it comes to its movepool for a defensive pokemon. Besides blanket checking previously mentioned threats and more it is also able to absorb toxic spikes, keep up momentum via spore and spread other status with stun spore or toxic.
I would like to echo this nom Hawlucha -> A+
A lot has been said already and comparisons to Volcarona have been made which I think is more valid than a lot of people seem to think and at the end of the day it certainly is the closest thing in A+. In all honesty I think Hawlucha is actually better than Volcarona, it does not require a turn to boost its stats, getting the speed and defense boost on switch in, which Volcarona requires a turn to achieve. High Jump Kick and Acrobatics still hit like a truck without Swords Dance, against teams lacking bulk (and with resistances cleared) Hawlucha doesn't even need SD to clean. 110 BP, 100% accurate Flying STAB is the envy of all Flying types, and Flying is a great attacking type, particularly in tandem with Fighting (and possibly Rock). Against Defensively orientated teams, which require the +2 to clean, Hawlucha has plenty of opportunities to set up.
The point I would like to bring up is that Hawlucha doesn't actually rely on Tapu's to be effective. Though certainly its best set, if you really don't have space for a Tapu on your team, which is very very rarely the case, Hawlucha's Substitute set is still a force to be reckoned with, subbing until Sitrus Berry is consumed and SD'ing on any turns your sub isn't broken is still a very hard set to deal with, especially because a lot of teams take one mon that can OHKO Hawlucha as their 'check'. Also the flexibility of the 4th slot, Stone Edge, Substitute, Roost, Drain Punch makes it less predictable than Volcarona, with the only variables being Psychic v HP [Ground] and Bugium Z v Psychium Z. I think SubSwarm is comparable to the old Hawluca Sub set.
Below are the recommended checks and counters, how barren this list is should really stand as a raise argument. Priority, fast offensive fighting resists and physical walls is a lot less than the C&C's for Volcarona and these checks could be copied and pasted onto any fast attacker, with probably a few additions necessary. Lastly, it's reliance on Tapu's is being presented as a much stronger argument as I feel it actually is. Tapu's are EVERYWHERE and all of them have great synergy with Hawlucha even without relying on the seed, to repeat Siggu I think partnering with a Tapu is a much lesser ask than having to keep Stealth Rocks off the field.
Checks and Counters
Priority Users: Ash-Greninja, Weavile, and Mega Pinsir can revenge kill Hawlucha by negating its Unburden boost through their priority. However, Hawlucha's Defense boost from Electric Seed reduces the damage taken by the last two, so none of the three can OHKO Electric Seed Hawlucha.
Physical Walls: Pokemon like Zapdos, Mew, Clefable, and Celesteela can take hits from Hawlucha and wear it down with status moves, such as Will-O-Wisp, or super effective attacks. Note that Clefable fails to OHKO Hawlucha with Moonblast, however.
Offensive Pokemon that resist Fighting-type Moves: Pokemon like Tapu Koko and Flyinium Z Landorus-T can avoid the OHKO from +2 Hawlucha's attacks and OHKO it in return. However, entry hazards can quickly wear down the former into range of a +2 High Jump Kick.
Priority Users: Ash-Greninja, Weavile, and Mega Pinsir can revenge kill Hawlucha by negating its Unburden boost through their priority. However, Hawlucha's Defense boost from Electric Seed reduces the damage taken by the last two, so none of the three can OHKO Electric Seed Hawlucha.
Physical Walls: Pokemon like Zapdos, Mew, Clefable, and Celesteela can take hits from Hawlucha and wear it down with status moves, such as Will-O-Wisp, or super effective attacks. Note that Clefable fails to OHKO Hawlucha with Moonblast, however.
Offensive Pokemon that resist Fighting-type Moves: Pokemon like Tapu Koko and Flyinium Z Landorus-T can avoid the OHKO from +2 Hawlucha's attacks and OHKO it in return. However, entry hazards can quickly wear down the former into range of a +2 High Jump Kick.
I want to make my case for Thundurus-T to make it to C+ from C. I think it is at least more viable than mons like Quilfish or Niheligo in the current meta.
I have been using this set
Thundurus-Therian @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Focus Blast
- Sludge Wave
and this mon brought me close to the top 500 on the ladder, not that impressive for a lot of you guys, but I was never that high.
This set has insane coverage, has only 2 relevant safe switch-ins with Chansey and AV Magerna and OHKO/2HKO and outspeeds a lot of popular mons like Ferro, AV Bulu, Heatran, Lando-T without Stone Edge, Toxapex, Celesteela, Clef, Kyurem-B, T-Tar without AV, Magnezone, Gliscor, Zapdos and so on. A lot of these mons have risen up recently as well like the last 2.
The lack of NP catches people off-guard and while still being viable option, I simply preferred the great coverage. Thanks to its typing, it can even live hits from faster mons like Tapu Koko, M-Pinsir, non-Z-Move Kartana and +2 Hawlucha and OHKO them back. I also think that it shouldn't be lower than its other form, which only fits on the dying Webs playstyle anyways. While outspeeding Kartana or Keldeo is nice (which are both often Scarfed anyways), Volt Absorb to stop Volt Switches is always nice and the extra power can be crucial to OHKO/2HKO mons. Plus, it has better chances against Zapdos or Magnezone. Mons like M-Venusaur and Blace dropped recently, too.
Alone being good against Pex, Heatran and Lando-T is pretty nice tbh. Yeah, I know all of its flaws, but the benefits are potentially huge and it is worth being at least on the same level as Hydreigon or Volcanion, which I have both have not seen in ages.
I have been using this set
Thundurus-Therian @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Focus Blast
- Sludge Wave
and this mon brought me close to the top 500 on the ladder, not that impressive for a lot of you guys, but I was never that high.
This set has insane coverage, has only 2 relevant safe switch-ins with Chansey and AV Magerna and OHKO/2HKO and outspeeds a lot of popular mons like Ferro, AV Bulu, Heatran, Lando-T without Stone Edge, Toxapex, Celesteela, Clef, Kyurem-B, T-Tar without AV, Magnezone, Gliscor, Zapdos and so on. A lot of these mons have risen up recently as well like the last 2.
The lack of NP catches people off-guard and while still being viable option, I simply preferred the great coverage. Thanks to its typing, it can even live hits from faster mons like Tapu Koko, M-Pinsir, non-Z-Move Kartana and +2 Hawlucha and OHKO them back. I also think that it shouldn't be lower than its other form, which only fits on the dying Webs playstyle anyways. While outspeeding Kartana or Keldeo is nice (which are both often Scarfed anyways), Volt Absorb to stop Volt Switches is always nice and the extra power can be crucial to OHKO/2HKO mons. Plus, it has better chances against Zapdos or Magnezone. Mons like M-Venusaur and Blace dropped recently, too.
Alone being good against Pex, Heatran and Lando-T is pretty nice tbh. Yeah, I know all of its flaws, but the benefits are potentially huge and it is worth being at least on the same level as Hydreigon or Volcanion, which I have both have not seen in ages.
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Thunder Pwoell
Banned deucer.
Also wanna give a shoutout to Thundy-t. It is very powerful, has a great ability, and can run a variety of sets. Notably my fav one is the dank Johnny Tots set that's bulky dual dance. Its spa is insane and has a great movepool. Definitely deserves a spot on the vr. FYI if you really hate chansey you can run nasty plot with focus blast and fightium z. This is hella cool but I love the dual dance set.
I shared my thoughts on Thundy-T two pages ago and it got literally zero traction. I’ll paste the link to avoid repeating allot of what I said here. I think I went relatively in depth for what Thundy can do. http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/usum-ou-ultra-viability-ranking-thread.3621329/post-7672913
Well whatever, I think Thundy isn’t half bad in the meta.
It has powerful offensive sets and a surprisingly useful assault vest set. There are plenty of games I wish it did more but it’s still relatively useful most games. It’s a solid Tapu Koko and hawlucha Check. In short it’s a Koko switch in that doesn’t let hawlucha set up. That’s big!
It also tears apart those teams whose electric resist is a combination of AV bulu and Lando T. Good mon, it’s pretty fire.
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I don't want to be too rude, but ur not using an actual set lol that's just a bad set, plain and simple. That is why it didn't gain any traction. The only Thundurus-T set that is actually worth using is dual dance, otherwise it's going to be very outclassed by Tapu Koko, and to a certain extent, Mega Manectric.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...y-ranking-thread.3621329/page-14#post-7629209
Here u can read my post on Thundurus-T, which did gain traction, and talked about its actual good set. Despite that it still didn't rise with only 1 vote for it going to C+. My point is that we should settle down with the Thundurus-T noms for now as it's pretty clear what the ouvr council thinks on about it. [Slate with Thundurus-T]
I know the set I was using isn’t common or very “good”. Someone used it against me on WiFi and it was surprisingly effective. I wanted to try it out because it was really cool and I wanted to see if I could make it work. I found relatively good success with it because I got to about ~1840 on the ladder before getting bored of the team. I found some unexpected success with it and wanted to share my thoughts.
I did briefly mention the offensive boosting sets. I guess I should’ve made that more clear that those sets are 9 times out of 10 the better sets.
But yeah I agree that it should rise because of the offensive sets. It still stands that the mon is really solid right now. But yeah, it’s up to the council.
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Hawlucha A to A+
This thing's a complete monster to deal with. Even at +1 kills all the tier's revenge killer scarfers, all or most of the walls, and pretty much any priority user (except maybe M-Sciz, who it can set up on). I'm going to take a step back from the Volcarona discussion and talk about how it compares to other sweepers in A+:
Hawlucha is one of those "you lose if you don't have the right counter to it" pokemon. That's also true of other sweepers in A+: you need to be prepared for them. If you don't have a Steel/Dark type, Lele can absolutely rip your team apart. If you don't have a strong special wall (Toxapex, Ferro, Bulu, Chansey), Ash-Gren can pretty happily chip your team to death any time it comes in. If you don't have a Grass type or HP Ice Lando, Zygarde can set up freely and nuke sweepers and walls all across the board. Koko can break just about anything with the right set. Granted, these mons can all come into play several times if needed - Hawlucha's more limited after its initial play - but many of them become less and less effective the more times they take entry or chip damage. So in some ways, Hawlucha's not on such terrible footing against them.
What's scary about Hawlucha, though, is the sheer number of things that possibly CAN counter it. Tapu Koko, Clefable, and Zapdos are the only Pokemon that hard stop it, otherwise you have to rely on something niche like bulky Fly-Z Lando with no prior damage or Devastating Drake Zygarde - both of which don't have a guaranteed win. Otherwise, you need a combination of things: either combinations of priority or something that can put it in range of dying so priority can pick it off.
Last, Hawlucha CAN be effective in some circumstances after its initial work. If Ash-Gren/Gren or M-Pinsir are going to pick it off with priority, you can maintain momentum by swapping to Ferro/Zapdos/Koko/etc. and getting a free turn, which can be a big deal late game. 110 BP Acrobatics is a solid move even without the Spe and Def boosts, and it can still be good for cleaning out weakened walls once your opponent's priority attackers are gone.
A+ exists for Pokemon that are unrivaled in their niche, and I don't think there's any late-game sweeper that can contend with Lucha for ripping up weakened teams. Scarf Kartana is close, and obviously it's S- for other reasons, but even it is bait for late game Lucha. It's easy to play with, powerful and performs its job perfectly - especially considering that it can clean Zapdos/Koko with Stone Edge if needed. I think that it genuinely is one of the best pokemon in the metagame right now.
This thing's a complete monster to deal with. Even at +1 kills all the tier's revenge killer scarfers, all or most of the walls, and pretty much any priority user (except maybe M-Sciz, who it can set up on). I'm going to take a step back from the Volcarona discussion and talk about how it compares to other sweepers in A+:
Hawlucha is one of those "you lose if you don't have the right counter to it" pokemon. That's also true of other sweepers in A+: you need to be prepared for them. If you don't have a Steel/Dark type, Lele can absolutely rip your team apart. If you don't have a strong special wall (Toxapex, Ferro, Bulu, Chansey), Ash-Gren can pretty happily chip your team to death any time it comes in. If you don't have a Grass type or HP Ice Lando, Zygarde can set up freely and nuke sweepers and walls all across the board. Koko can break just about anything with the right set. Granted, these mons can all come into play several times if needed - Hawlucha's more limited after its initial play - but many of them become less and less effective the more times they take entry or chip damage. So in some ways, Hawlucha's not on such terrible footing against them.
What's scary about Hawlucha, though, is the sheer number of things that possibly CAN counter it. Tapu Koko, Clefable, and Zapdos are the only Pokemon that hard stop it, otherwise you have to rely on something niche like bulky Fly-Z Lando with no prior damage or Devastating Drake Zygarde - both of which don't have a guaranteed win. Otherwise, you need a combination of things: either combinations of priority or something that can put it in range of dying so priority can pick it off.
Last, Hawlucha CAN be effective in some circumstances after its initial work. If Ash-Gren/Gren or M-Pinsir are going to pick it off with priority, you can maintain momentum by swapping to Ferro/Zapdos/Koko/etc. and getting a free turn, which can be a big deal late game. 110 BP Acrobatics is a solid move even without the Spe and Def boosts, and it can still be good for cleaning out weakened walls once your opponent's priority attackers are gone.
A+ exists for Pokemon that are unrivaled in their niche, and I don't think there's any late-game sweeper that can contend with Lucha for ripping up weakened teams. Scarf Kartana is close, and obviously it's S- for other reasons, but even it is bait for late game Lucha. It's easy to play with, powerful and performs its job perfectly - especially considering that it can clean Zapdos/Koko with Stone Edge if needed. I think that it genuinely is one of the best pokemon in the metagame right now.
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- Status