Seems like Volcanion is just a slower Keldeo with worse defensive typing. It hits harder but at a heavy cost.
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Pokémon Volcanion
- Thread starter Delibird is Amazing
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i think volcanion can be an excellent special/mixed bulky sweeper, as heatran
If it weren't for Stealth Rock, i'd hardly say that Volcanion's typing is worse than Keldeo's. They have more of less the same resists, except that Volcanion trades a Dark and Rock resist for a Fairy resist, and doubles every other resistance that Keldeo has except for Bug, on top of being immune to Water thanks to its ability, and taking neutral damage from Grass, Psychic and Flying, three types Keldeo is weak to.
The four attacks Volcanion should run on choiced set are Steam Eruption, Fire Blast, Sludge Wave and Focus Blast, the first two are pretty obvious, the latter are mostly filler but hit threats such as Azumarill, Clefable or Gyarados-Mega supereffectively.
The four attacks Volcanion should run on choiced set are Steam Eruption, Fire Blast, Sludge Wave and Focus Blast, the first two are pretty obvious, the latter are mostly filler but hit threats such as Azumarill, Clefable or Gyarados-Mega supereffectively.
mmm, i think volcanion can be well used with keldeo, right?
You mean kinda like double bird? I could see that working, but the main issue is that water immune mons exist, which is a major thorn that double bird didn't have to deal with. There is a huuuge difference between immune and resist, especially when you are speced.
Every Pokemon learns Toxic (not including the obvious ones that can't use TMs). Also, with dual STAB, it'll be stopped in its tracks by dragon types.
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Wow Volcanion isn't even even released and everyone is already doing moveset we don't even know his full movepool XD.
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We already know the base stats, ability and movepool. That's more then enough for decent theorymon.
This thing will be decent but it's being highly overrated in this thread. Seriously it's STAB attacks are very easy to switch into, and and teams with a cleric don't give a fuck about steam eruption either. It may be strong, but a lot of shit is, and volcanion isn't fast, and it sure doesn't have a fantastic typing like aegislash. If 130 special attack was that special, then why aren't specs porygon-z or specs kyurem tearing apart the OU tier? Because speed and typing are important shit. Entei isn't at the top of OU either, despite having Sacred Fire, which is arguably the best move in the game right now. Speed and typing are important, and one attacks and a decent special attack stat aren't enough to make a pokemon A-rank material.
I agree with you on some parts, but I don't get why you're not even mentioning its bulk. Sure, its speed is just poop, but the decent bulk is enough to compensate for that lack of speed. On top of that, Volc has a pretty good typing (although not super fucking awesome like Aegis') that allows it to get a good amount of switch-ins. Other than that, I also agree that its STABs are easy to switch-in to (though nothing likes a burn from either of its STABs).
Overrated it may be (pretty much any popular mon is overrated to some extent), but there are several flaws in your argument.
1. Fire-Water with water absorb is a great typing from a defensive standpoint. It has 3 weaknesses, 2 of which it threatens with steam eruption (ground and rock). It has an immunity (water absorb), a quadra resist to fire, resists steal, fairy, and bug, making it a complete stop to several dangerous sweepers like scizor and azumaril.
2. Remember this thing has roughly the same damage output as keldeo. You know how hard it is to swap into specs keldeo, right? Even resists have a hard time swapping into keld and take significant damage on swap in. Well this guy is just as hard to swap into, and has a good chance of burning, crippling a lot of potential counters (note that most users of rock and ground type moves are physical). Dragons walling it's stab isn't a big deal, because most dragons aren't walls and don't appreciate the burn. Bulky waters, on the other hand, are a full stop to this guy, but they frequently can't do anything back because water absorb (rotom-w is a notable exception, and I expect him to rise up if volc starts getting out of hand).
This guy will excel as a wall breaker and bruiser, whittling down enemy teams and paving the way for a dangerous sweeper like m-pinser to clean house.
For the record, entei's problem is that his coverage options are ass (he's got stone edge and that's about it). Banded entei is still a decent option though, as he's got enough attack to make e-speed dangerous and sacred fire is a really good move.
Actually because of Volcanion's bulk and speed a Specs set can often afford Modest while Keldeo is required to run Timid, so power wise it's even stronger than expected. Couple that with the 15% increase in accuracy and the 30% chance to add burn damage on the same turn and Volcanion's wall breaking potential really begins to set itself apart in terms of just Water STAB. Keldeo being able to hit physically and it's speed is a really great benefit.
I'm not sure if Volcanion's special bulk will be very good without assault vest. Of course everything except for Chansey and maybe Rotom-W will be scared facing a specs Volcanion but it will be much more vulnerable to counter-attacks.
Nevertheless it will most likely be a one of the defining forces in OU ^_^
Nevertheless it will most likely be a one of the defining forces in OU ^_^
I don't feel like Volcanion seems ENTIRELY outclassed by Heatran. Sure, Heatran's the better defensive mon (being immune to Toxic Spikes and neutral to SR is a big plus), but Volcanion seems like the better offensive threat thanks to great dual STABs in Fire and Water, pretty decent coverage, a nice Defense stat to eat up priority (minus Banded Brave Birds from T-flame) and an important Water Immunity that can potentially provide recovery. (Azumarill cries ;-;)
The one thing Volcanion does have over Heatran as a defensive Pokemon is the lack of a 4x weakness to Ground. Because of this trait, Heatran has to choose to either run Leftovers for passive recovery or an Air Balloon to avoid Ground attacks for a turn. It wishes it could run both, but it can't. Besides that, though, Heatran is arguably better defensively thanks to its Steel typing giving it immunity to Toxic, but I feel that, thanks to Steam Eruption, even defensive Volcanions will have very few safe switch ins due to the high power and high burn chance Steam Eruption provides.
The one thing Volcanion does have over Heatran as a defensive Pokemon is the lack of a 4x weakness to Ground. Because of this trait, Heatran has to choose to either run Leftovers for passive recovery or an Air Balloon to avoid Ground attacks for a turn. It wishes it could run both, but it can't. Besides that, though, Heatran is arguably better defensively thanks to its Steel typing giving it immunity to Toxic, but I feel that, thanks to Steam Eruption, even defensive Volcanions will have very few safe switch ins due to the high power and high burn chance Steam Eruption provides.
What would check and/or counter this thing? I know that bulky waters could counter it, but they can't do too much to Volc back (except Rotom-W, as mentioned by someone else). Garchomp could be a potential check, cuz it can't switch in w/o risking a burn from either STABs. Once it's in safely, however, it can KO or 2HKO with EQ.
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 282-332 (100.3 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 282-332 (81.9 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I've been trying to find an EV spread that will allow Volc to avoid the 2HKO from Garchomp while still keeping enough power to wreak havoc. It's probably not possible if it's gonna be an offensive set. Speaking of sets...
Volcanion @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Water Absorb
Nature: Hasty/Naive
EVs: 252 SpA, 4 Atk, 252 Spe
~Steam Eruption
~Fire Blast/Overheat
~HP Ice/filler
~Stone Edge/EQ
This could possibly make Scarftran outclassed. I believe this set is self-explanatory; revenge kill certain mons, clean up late game, etc.
EDIT: Replaced 4th slot with Stone Edge and EQ to hit opposing Volcs with. It's a guarunteed 2HKO after SR (3HKO w/o SR)
4 Atk Volcanion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 134-158 (38.9 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
4 Atk Volcanion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 134-158 (38.9 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 282-332 (100.3 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 282-332 (81.9 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I've been trying to find an EV spread that will allow Volc to avoid the 2HKO from Garchomp while still keeping enough power to wreak havoc. It's probably not possible if it's gonna be an offensive set. Speaking of sets...
Volcanion @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Water Absorb
Nature: Hasty/Naive
EVs: 252 SpA, 4 Atk, 252 Spe
~Steam Eruption
~Fire Blast/Overheat
~HP Ice/filler
~Stone Edge/EQ
This could possibly make Scarftran outclassed. I believe this set is self-explanatory; revenge kill certain mons, clean up late game, etc.
EDIT: Replaced 4th slot with Stone Edge and EQ to hit opposing Volcs with. It's a guarunteed 2HKO after SR (3HKO w/o SR)
4 Atk Volcanion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 134-158 (38.9 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
4 Atk Volcanion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 134-158 (38.9 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
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The Lati twins perhaps? They don't like burns (unless they run recover/roost) but aren't crippled by it and resist Volcanion's STAB attacks.
There's probably a mention of Assault Vest on here, but I didn't see it. So, Vest Volcanion seems pretty legit, with Water Absorb and a dual Fire + Ice resist giving him decent special switch - ins, and recovery, though it's unreliable. Also, physically defensive could see use to counter Specs Keldeo, with Specs Secret Sword
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Volcanion: 132-156 (38.3 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
and Hydro Pump healing him. And scarf could work, as it would be like a Rotom or Heatran scarf set. However, this thing gets no good special coverage, and is walled by the Lati@s, as well as Chansey. With Specs, he hits like a truck, and most walls fear dat burn. He also has enough bulk to take a Banded Talonflame Brave Bird.
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Volcanion: 201-237 (71.5 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Amoonguss: 177-209 (40.9 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
That's powerful.
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Volcanion: 132-156 (38.3 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
and Hydro Pump healing him. And scarf could work, as it would be like a Rotom or Heatran scarf set. However, this thing gets no good special coverage, and is walled by the Lati@s, as well as Chansey. With Specs, he hits like a truck, and most walls fear dat burn. He also has enough bulk to take a Banded Talonflame Brave Bird.
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Volcanion: 201-237 (71.5 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Amoonguss: 177-209 (40.9 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
That's powerful.
Filler should be replaced with stone edge, it's the only thing that hits opposing Volcanion if you opt for hp ice. The last thing offensive Volcanion wants to do is be forced out or stalled out by defensive Volcanion.
Getting walled by certain threats really isn't an issue if it's a small list; Lati@s won't appreciate being burned, Chansey is easy to take advantage of, and both are taken care of by Bisharp regardless.
(Bisharp is fucking amazing in general, use it more)
That's actually a really good idea, a Volcanion + Bisharp wallbreaking core and then maybe Greninja to clean up after opponent's walls are dead.
Lati@s would be considered a check cuz I don't think they'd appreciate taking any attack from Volc, much less taking a burn from it. I'm on my phone, so I can't get calcs. Chansey walls every special attacker, so there's no point in mentioning that. Volc doesn't wanna switch in on Talonflame and vice versa. Also, I doubt amoongus wants to switch in on Volc, unless it wants to risk it not being specs or if it gets the burn.
EDIT: I now have access to a calcutator. Hallelujah! Turns out that the Lati twins really couldn't give two shits about Volc, not including Hidden Power coverage. Latias would have a better chance against Volc as it has slightly better bulk, but really, it doesn't matter which one is used.
252+ SpA Volcanion Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias: 110-130 (36.5 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Volcanion: 266-316 (77.3 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
With Latios, it's a slightly different story. It has a chance of being 2HKO'd after rocks w/ HP Ice, so it may have to be a little wary.
252+ SpA Volcanion Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 126-150 (41.7 - 49.6%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
However, it has no trouble KOing Volc right back. It's a guaranteed OHKO if rocks are on Volc's side of the field.
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Volcanion: 300-355 (87.2 - 103.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
Of course, neither one would appreciate a burn in the long run.
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I had looked through volc's movepool earlier to check its use on stall (AV set) and had seen it had nothing to really slam dragons or waters without using HiddenPower coverage. I think Latis will provide a pretty decent switchin to any set not running Hidden Power Ice/Dark/Ghost to take them,
Bulky Fairy types like Chefable and Sylveon will be great partners for Volcanion on Stall since they can easily take attacks from the Latis and hit them back hard with Moonblast and Hyper Voice, respectively.
Mega Gardevoir will also be a good teammate on more offensive teams since both STABs from the Latis are either immune or resisted.
Mega Gardevoir will also be a good teammate on more offensive teams since both STABs from the Latis are either immune or resisted.
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