Balanced Hackmons Viability Ranking

[Lcass4919]

I'm not sure how much utility it had previously as a POgre counter. I never really saw it used as one at least. Yes, the Tail Glow Tinted Lens set is the best set, and I'd say that its pros far outweigh its cons. It's not hard to Imposter proof it (just add a Fairy pokemon with Substitute, 1 team member isn't bad for that) and the fact that it literally demolishes balance, semistall, and stall is just ridiculous. It won't have much utility against heavy offense teams, but even then could set up against a pivot.

The description for A rank is: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the BH metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits.

I think it fits this very well, as it's able to sweep 3 playstyles very effectively with very few counters. The only support it needs is a Substitute Fairy, which really isn't hard to fit on a team. I don't think it's a stretch of the A rank to require another Pokemon to wall it, seeing how MMX is in A+ and almost always needs a dedicated wall. Also, if you have Magnet Pull on the Sub Fairy like E4 Flint does, you can effectively start a setup sweep without risking anything.

id also like to point out the smash/imposter proof dialga set i made (magic bounce with smash, recover, flash cannon and earth plate judgement, is suprisingly effective in the current meta, being one of the few smashers/sweepers that are both strong, imposterproof, and ate resistant. id argue the tinted set alone warrants A, since allthough imposter is more common, thats dialgas niche, is to bait in imposter so a fairy type gets a chance to sub/QD and sweep. id argue A is well worthy of its rank. being one of the few GOOD offensive steels in the meta.

 

[I wuv you]

I said this in the old thread I'll say it again, Blissey ONLY gets D rank BARELY because it has final gambit, otherwise it should be unranked completely.

You can go look at the old argument because I'm too lazy to type it again but in summary:
Primal kyogre = S, Regular Kyogre = Unranked
Chansey = S, Blissey = A
It's inconsistent unless you think the final gambit set is A material.

 

[Lcass4919]

I said this in the old thread I'll say it again, Blissey ONLY gets D rank BARELY because it has final gambit, otherwise it should be unranked completely.

You can go look at the old argument because I'm too lazy to type it again but in summary:
Primal kyogre = S, Regular Kyogre = Unranked
Chansey = S, Blissey = A
It's inconsistent unless you think the final gambit set is A material.

is regular kyogre S ranked? does it define the meta? no? then how are they comparable. you cant compare the two, considering if two things of a similar scale are S ranked threats, both are considerably more scary then a B+ threat. its basically the same argument i brought up with shedinja, if its downsides weren't present, it would be immidiate S ranked beside chansey.

simular situation=/= same scenario

blissey does not fit into D. lets look at the two descriptions and compare:"Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the BH metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it." sure, the description is right about it having no niche over chansey(final gambit aside lel), but blissey is not "mediocre" its outclassed...but NOT mediocre. blissey does not fit this description, because like it or not, blissey does not have "crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful." dispite having a pokemon who does its job BETTER, it can still do its job PERFECTLY FINE. its still a huge threat regardless on if something beats it. 75% of this description does NOT apply to blissey. ergo, it-should-not-be-D-ranked.

now lets look at B's description:"Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the BH metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives" sound familiar? "notable flaws that affect how they function in the tier" hm..."great in the BH metagame" well, blissey still forces the same teambuilding restrictions chansey does so... "positive traits outshine their negatives" if you run blissey on a team, its not like its going to have crippling flaws that CRIPPLE its own success(Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time). blissey fits into a higher rank because its still JUST as threatening as its successor only a TINY bit worse. id even be willing to argue kyogre in a similar vein, since when is "unranked" suddenly mean "unviable"? deoxys attack must have completely sucked before it got its rank. no it didnt, because it was dormant, so we COULDN'T rank it.

this is why viability rankings are complete bullshit in my honest opinion. everything is subjective, and in the end, its just another fancy word for "stuff you should use" and not ACTUALLY viability ranks.
Viability:"the capacity to operate or be sustained" just because someone does your job better, doesn't mean suddenly you need to be fired for it.

 

[Kit Kasai]

is regular kyogre S ranked? does it define the meta? no? then how are they comparable. you cant compare the two, considering if two things of a similar scale are S ranked threats, both are considerably more scary then a B+ threat. its basically the same argument i brought up with shedinja, if its downsides weren't present, it would be immidiate S ranked beside chansey.

simular situation=/= same scenario

blissey does not fit into D. lets look at the two descriptions and compare:"Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the BH metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it." sure, the description is right about it having no niche over chansey(final gambit aside lel), but blissey is not "mediocre" its outclassed...but NOT mediocre. blissey does not fit this description, because like it or not, blissey does not have "crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful." dispite having a pokemon who does its job BETTER, it can still do its job PERFECTLY FINE. its still a huge threat regardless on if something beats it. 75% of this description does NOT apply to blissey. ergo, it-should-not-be-D-ranked.

now lets look at B's description:"Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the BH metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives" sound familiar? "notable flaws that affect how they function in the tier" hm..."great in the BH metagame" well, blissey still forces the same teambuilding restrictions chansey does so... "positive traits outshine their negatives" if you run blissey on a team, its not like its going to have crippling flaws that CRIPPLE its own success(Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time). blissey fits into a higher rank because its still JUST as threatening as its successor only a TINY bit worse. id even be willing to argue kyogre in a similar vein, since when is "unranked" suddenly mean "unviable"? deoxys attack must have completely sucked before it got its rank. no it didnt, because it was dormant, so we COULDN'T rank it.

this is why viability rankings are complete bullshit in my honest opinion. everything is subjective, and in the end, its just another fancy word for "stuff you should use" and not ACTUALLY viability ranks.
Viability:"the capacity to operate or be sustained" just because someone does your job better, doesn't mean suddenly you need to be fired for it.

He's talking about the old thread where primal ogre was A+ and regular was unranked, and how this is inconsistent with chans/bliss. I actually agree with this point as bliss is almost entirely outclassed by chans.

 

[Lcass4919]

He's talking about the old thread where primal ogre was A+ and regular was unranked, and how this is inconsistent with chans/bliss. I actually agree with this point as bliss is almost entirely outclassed by chans.

did you even read my post the entire way through lmfao. if kyogre would be used more, it would be "viable". it would be OUTCLASSED. but chances are primal ogre and primal don wouldn't impede on its success to the extent of it actually warrenting being less "viable". everyone seems to associate "viability" with "is something better" which is NOT what viability means at all, in any dictionary definition.

if a train is beat down, broken, and basically struggling to function, but CAN function and move, its still VIABLE until it dies. in this scenario, dispite being horrendously outclassed, it can still yeild results, thus, it is viable by the OFFICIAL definition.

 

[Kit Kasai]

did you even read my post the entire way through lmfao. if kyogre would be used more, it would be "viable". it would be OUTCLASSED. but chances are primal ogre and primal don wouldn't impede on its success to the extent of it actually warrenting being less "viable". everyone seems to associate "viability" with "is something better" which is NOT what viability means at all, in any dictionary definition.

if a train is beat down, broken, and basically struggling to function, but CAN function and move, its still VIABLE until it dies. in this scenario, dispite being horrendously outclassed, it can still yeild results, thus, it is viable by the OFFICIAL definition.

Chill man no need to be an asshole.

You're saying that if something is "usable", even if its probably impractical and outclassed, then its still viable. So why does this make blissey viable while kyogre isn't (in the hypothetical example where kyogre-primal still exists).

 

[MK]

See, stuff like this is why the OU version of this thread had the descriptions removed. An example is Mega Latios. By itself, it isn't a bad pokemon at all. HOWEVER, what use does it have over regular Latios? Life Orb Latios hits harder, and only loses out on bulk and getting hit harder by Knock Off. Also, it allows you to use another mega on your team. The argument really just creates a ton of meaningless posts in the thread, the post about it was somewhat recent.

This is pretty much the same thing. Most of the time, you would consider Chansey > Blissey. The only times I can think of that Blissey is more useful is Choice Scarf Imposter (is that even good anymore?), Final Gambit, and being ever so slightly more useful after its item has been Knocked Off. Again, Blissey by itself isn't a bad pokemon at all, but when it's outclassed by Chansey in almost every scenario, that's why people are pushing for it to be ranked low.

 

[Lcass4919]

Chill man no need to be an asshole.

You're saying that if something is "usable", even if its probably impractical and outclassed, then its still viable. So why does this make blissey viable while kyogre isn't (in the hypothetical example where kyogre-primal still exists).

im not being an asshole lmfao. or at least im not intending on it.

why was mega latios B rank, when it has literally 0 niche over latios...which is S ranked. and dont say "its a mega" because its the MEGA thats outclassed. latios rarely uses EQ and its ONLY to hit tran, which is ohkoed regardless. regular latios also happens to be S rank, so its the perfect example. and guess what rank mega latios is...B rank.

(and now, its A+ rank and C rank respectively, which both basically went down a rank, so its still comparable)

 

[Funbot28]

im not being an asshole lmfao. or at least im not intending on it.

why was mega latios B rank, when it has literally 0 niche over latios...which is S ranked. and dont say "its a mega" because its the MEGA thats outclassed. latios rarely uses EQ and its ONLY to hit tran, which is ohkoed regardless. regular latios also happens to be S rank, so its the perfect example. and guess what rank mega latios is...B rank.

(and now, its A+ rank and C rank respectively, which both basically went down a rank, so its still comparable)

First, Latios is A+ rank in the OU rankings, not S. Second, can we please not talk about OU ranking here, this is a BH VR thread...

Edit: Also, I was thinking maybe it would be nice to add common abilities next to the mon for clarity. What do you think Piccolo Daimao

 

[Lcass4919]

First, Latios is A+ rank in the OU rankings, not S. Second, can we please not talk about OU ranking here, this is a BH VR thread...

Edit: Also, I was thinking maybe it would be nice to add common abilities next to the mon for clarity. What do you think Piccolo Daimao

reading tends to help to understand context. i advise you do such before commenting. i clearly used latios' rank in past tense, and then stated "and now, its A+ rank and C rank respectively, which both basically went down a rank, so its still comparable", and i am talking about it as a comparison. it is relevant to the conversation, as i was stating that there IS another place who does rank viability based on the actual word definition(OU) and the fact we havent done it before is irrelevant when that just circles me back to my main point of "why don't we continue to follow the actual description of viability?"

like, i'm sorry if i'm starting to sound rude here, but really. does anyone fully read the other side of arguments anymore? this post is 100% nitpicking my points without actually understanding anything i said. is my wording hard to understand or something?

 

[Rumors]

The main difference between Kyogre-Normal and Blissey is that Kyo was outclassed in every single relevant way. The only niche it had was being slightly better at Blue Orb sets than Pogre since it could use Magic Guard to switch into hazards for free once or maybe use Intimidate once if that even worked. And that was it and nobody ran those, not even me. Blissey actually has a few small niches over Chansey that are somewhat relevant, like the ever so slightly higher HP and being more useful after Trick or Knock Off. It's very tiny advantages, but it's enough that there are relevant situations that could warrant choosing it over Chansey if bluffing Eviolite isn't a concern. (Which, personally, I think people over value because I'm going to treat Imposter Chansey the same whether it has Eviolite or not and it'll be a prime Knock Off target no matter what.)


Lcass4919 No offense, but your posts can be hard to read sometimes because of the lack of capitalization and frequent run-on sentences.

 

[jackm]

Here's my take on the Blissey ranking concern:

Let's drop the assigned literature that defines each rank for a moment. The definitions were originally created for a metagame very different from the one at hand, and they don't really reflect nuances that the tier of BH embodies. Let's just look at the most basic definition of what we are doing: creating a viability ranking list. On the most primitive level, a viability ranking list denotes how viable a Pokemon is as a use of a slot on your team. If something is unranked, it means that (within reason) it is completely unviable as a use of a slot on your team, i.e. something else can always do its job better. This was the case with, as previously noted, Kyogre vs. Kyogre-Primal. However, as has also been pointed out, Blissey is not 100% outclassed by Chansey. Notably, it's marginally more useful after having its item Knocked Off if it's running Imposter, and apparently there's a Final Gambit set floating around so that could be something too. However, let's look at it logically. If you are teambuilding, are you honestly ever going to opt to run Blissey over Chansey? Fur Coat is a lot better on Chansey than Blissey, and Imposters have the advantage of being able to either run Eviolite straight-up or bluff a Plate.

Rumors, you said you would treat Imposter Chansey the same whether it has Eviolite or not. Are you serious? If you know that my Chansey is running a Spooky Plate, are you going to set up a Moldy Gengar-Mega in the same fashion that you would if it was running Eviolite? You need to recognize that the majority of the value of the bluff is not actually in direct interaction; obviously, you're going to try to smack it with a Knock Off regardless, but the ambiguity of not knowing whether it's Eviolite or Plated allows Chansey to, without even switching in, act as a bilateral deterrent against both brute force sweepers and Plate/Judgment shenanigans. When running an Imposter Blissey, the possibility of it running Eviolite is gone, thereby removing a major ambiguity from the start of the match. When teambuilding, I can't imagine sacrificing that tactical advantage in exchange for an extra 10 HP and the consequent marginal bulk increase that comes with it (and only a bulk increase when Chansey lacks Eviolite).

In summary, Blissey has barely a niche, but not in either of the things that would really make it GOOD in Chansey's absence. Therefore, it should probably ranked, but I couldn't deign to allow it to get anything higher than D rank. Plainly, Blissey in current BH is either outclassed by Chansey or mediocre.

Also [EDIT]:

Also, I was thinking maybe it would be nice to add common abilities next to the mon for clarity. What do you think Piccolo Daimao

If we decide to pull an AAAVR and add common abilities to each Pokemon, we should probably expand that addition of "abilities" to "abilities/other defining qualities of set". This is important because a bunch of Pokemon have multiple sets that make use of the same ability (for instance, Tyranitar-Mega can viably run both Poison Heal+Shift Gear and Poison Heal utility, both of which use PH but operate very differently). Most sets are defined by their ability, admittedly, but the distinction needs to be made. I'm personally all for this addition.

[EDITMK2]: Drew up a basic framework for this^ for the S and A ranks.

Hide

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the BH metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

S+ Rank

(Imposter, Fur Coat)
S Rank

(Protean, Refrigerate, Contrary)

(Aerilate, Gale Wings, Protean)
A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the BH metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits.

A+ Rank

(Poison Heal, Fur Coat, Magic Bounce, Prankster)

(Protean, Mold Breaker, Refrigerate, Pixilate, Contrary)
A Rank

(Flash Fire, Prankster, Magic Bounce)

(Imposter)

(Tinted Lens, Mold Breaker, Magic Bounce, Magnet Pull)

(Pixilate, Magic Guard)

(Flash Fire, Prankster, Magic Bounce)
A- Rank

(Magic Bounce, Poison Heal, Prankster)

(Mold Breaker, Normalize)

(Sturdy)

 

[Lcass4919]

Here's my take on the Blissey ranking concern:

Let's drop the assigned literature that defines each rank for a moment. The definitions were originally created for a metagame very different from the one at hand, and they don't really reflect nuances that the tier of BH embodies. Let's just look at the most basic definition of what we are doing: creating a viability ranking list. On the most primitive level, a viability ranking list denotes how viable a Pokemon is as a use of a slot on your team. If something is unranked, it means that (within reason) it is completely unviable as a use of a slot on your team, i.e. something else can always do its job better. This was the case with, as previously noted, Kyogre vs. Kyogre-Primal. However, as has also been pointed out, Blissey is not 100% outclassed by Chansey. Notably, it's marginally more useful after having its item Knocked Off if it's running Imposter, and apparently there's a Final Gambit set floating around so that could be something too. However, let's look at it logically. If you are teambuilding, are you honestly ever going to opt to run Blissey over Chansey? Fur Coat is a lot better on Chansey than Blissey, and Imposters have the advantage of being able to either run Eviolite straight-up or bluff a Plate.

You cant just ignore the definition of viability because you feel like it. Blissey is viable. End of story. There IS no debate. By definition on a dictionary, blissey is considered viable. You cant just judge a pokemon's viability because something does it better.

in order to make a viability list, you must use the definition of viability am i not wrong?

viability: the capacity to operate or be sustained.

can Blissey operate? ergo, if you run Blissey on a team REGARDLESS ON IF ANOTHER POKEMON IS BETTER; Does said Pokemon preform well? personal opinion on viability<dictionary definition of viability. Just throwing that out there.

 

[Kit Kasai]

You cant just ignore the definition of viability because you feel like it. Blissey is viable. End of story. There IS no debate. By definition on a dictionary, blissey is considered viable. You cant just judge a pokemon's viability because something does it better.

in order to make a viability list, you must use the definition of viability am i not wrong?

viability: the capacity to operate or be sustained.

can Blissey operate? ergo, if you run Blissey on a team REGARDLESS ON IF ANOTHER POKEMON IS BETTER; Does said Pokemon preform well? personal opinion on viability<dictionary definition of viability. Just throwing that out there.

I get what you're saying, but why does this apply to Blissey and not to the Kyogre vs Kyogre-Primal example? You still haven't answered that...

 

[jackm]

You cant just ignore the definition of viability because you feel like it. Blissey is viable. End of story. There IS no debate. By definition on a dictionary, blissey is considered viable. You cant just judge a pokemon's viability because something does it better.

in order to make a viability list, you must use the definition of viability am i not wrong?

viability: the capacity to operate or be sustained.

can Blissey operate? ergo, if you run Blissey on a team REGARDLESS ON IF ANOTHER POKEMON IS BETTER; Does said Pokemon preform well? personal opinion on viability<dictionary definition of viability. Just throwing that out there.

I understand your argument, however I must ask you...do you have any idea of the ridiculousness of its implications? If we can rank anything because it operates at least somewhat decently (what I and I assume you would consider to place it in at least D rank, ignoring our disagreement on the notion of outclassedness), then I would be obligated as an educated BH player to propose that we rank Wobbuffet, Wailord, Alomomola, Snorlax, Drifblim, and Eviolite Munchlax as "viable" Impostors because fuck, they have a bunch of HP and probably work at least somewhat decently as Impostors. In addition, we should probably rank Mewtwo and Deoxys-N because they can run Protean at least somewhat decently, and we should definitely rank Rayquaza, Salamence-Mega, Salamence, Archeops, Kyurem, Glalie-Mega, Mamoswine, and Abomasnow-Mega for their ability to "viably" run -Ate FakeSpeed. Plus, Giratina-O is a great Dragon/Ghost type wall in case you're at a loss for one of those.

Yes, viability is technically the ability to operate. However, you have to understand that this viability ranking list is ultimately meant to be a tool to represent the metagame, and ignoring the outclassedness of things which are objectively "viable" unnecessarily clutters up the list. There's a reason why, for instance, Deoxys-N is as low as possible in the Ubers viability rankings (in fact, it would be unranked if not for its tiering status as an Uber!) It just isn't useful to build a viability ranking list with your dictionary definition of the term, and the fact of the matter is that we haven't been operating with that definition up to this point either. If we were, we would have like 80 Pokemon ranked and our list would just be useless to new players. I hope you understand that I don't mean to antagonize you, because I really don't, but your necessity to follow the technical definition is frankly ridiculous and counterproductive to the viability ranking process.

 

[dsm77773]

When we rank a Pokémon, we take in account two aspects of every Pokémon:
1. Is it usable?
2. Is it outclassed?
I feel that the problem we're having here is that we disagree on how much weight has each one when ranking a Pokémon. If we only took in account the first aspect (is it usable?) then Blissey should be ranked under A comfortably, and as jackm pointed out, we'd have like 80 Pokémon ranked. But if we only care about point 2 (is it outclassed?) then Blissey shouldn't be even ranked along with everything below B-.
A clue we've got in here is the line between B-rank and C-rank. If we look at the descriptions, Pokémon in C-rank are outclassed, while we'd consider B-rank Pokémon to have a niche big enough to avoid being outclassed.
According to this, Blissey should be ranked in C or below.
And at this point is were our opinions define were should be Blissey ranked. Those who think we should pay more attention to point 2 (is it outclassed?) say Blissey should go to D or unrnked. Meanwhile some others think Blissey should go higher because it is usable (point 1), thus suggesting C.
The thing is that everybody has a different opinion and there's nothing that defines how much weight this two points have, thus leading to this discussion.

That said, my opinion (and it is just my opinion) is that Blissey should go to C+.

 

[LightningLord2]

I'm pretty sure there's roles Blissey can fulfill Chansey can't - it has a halfway usable Special Attack (which is probably still garbage for BH standards, but still enough to do stuff to sweepers like M-Ray) and has a better raw bulk, making it less reliant on Eviolite.

 

[lordmagecar]

When we rank a Pokémon, we take in account two aspects of every Pokémon:
1. Is it usable?
2. Is it outclassed?
I feel that the problem we're having here is that we disagree on how much weight has each one when ranking a Pokémon. If we only took in account the first aspect (is it usable?) then Blissey should be ranked under A comfortably, and as jackm pointed out, we'd have like 80 Pokémon ranked. But if we only care about point 2 (is it outclassed?) then Blissey shouldn't be even ranked along with everything below B-.
A clue we've got in here is the line between B-rank and C-rank. If we look at the descriptions, Pokémon in C-rank are outclassed, while we'd consider B-rank Pokémon to have a niche big enough to avoid being outclassed.
According to this, Blissey should be ranked in C or below.
And at this point is were our opinions define were should be Blissey ranked. Those who think we should pay more attention to point 2 (is it outclassed?) say Blissey should go to D or unrnked. Meanwhile some others think Blissey should go higher because it is usable (point 1), thus suggesting C.
The thing is that everybody has a different opinion and there's nothing that defines how much weight this two points have, thus leading to this discussion.

That said, my opinion (and it is just my opinion) is that Blissey should go to C+.

I have to say, Blissey is very similar to Mega Alakazam. If the Mega Mewtwos were suspected and banned, Mega Alakazam could shine. However, its only niche is being slightly faster than Mega Mewtwo Y. The same can be said for Blissey and chansey. Blissey has slightly more hp, but is worse in every other aspect.

 

[Rumors]

Rumors, you said you would treat Imposter Chansey the same whether it has Eviolite or not. Are you serious? If you know that my Chansey is running a Spooky Plate, are you going to set up a Moldy Gengar-Mega in the same fashion that you would if it was running Eviolite? You need to recognize that the majority of the value of the bluff is not actually in direct interaction; obviously, you're going to try to smack it with a Knock Off regardless, but the ambiguity of not knowing whether it's Eviolite or Plated allows Chansey to, without even switching in, act as a bilateral deterrent against both brute force sweepers and Plate/Judgment shenanigans. When running an Imposter Blissey, the possibility of it running Eviolite is gone, thereby removing a major ambiguity from the start of the match. When teambuilding, I can't imagine sacrificing that tactical advantage in exchange for an extra 10 HP and the consequent marginal bulk increase that comes with it (and only a bulk increase when Chansey lacks Eviolite).

Yes, but in your example, you're clearly not bluffing Eviolite anymore because, in that scenario, I already know your item, so of course I'd play around it accordingly. What I mean is if I have something Imposter-weak on the field and someone sends an Imposter out against it, I'm never going to sit there and wonder if they have Eviolite or not. I'm going to switch to my Imposter check regardless of what item you're holding. It doesn't matter how excessively you're bluffing Eviolite because I'm not going to ever consider taking the chance you aren't (and even then, Chansey is bulkier than most Imposter-weak Pokemon, so it'll usually win against them anyway). And my Imposter-check will be designed well enough that it won't care what item your Imposter is holding either. And if I'm running Imposter-proof sets, it will take Eviolite, Scarf, and Plate into consideration and, if it's weak to one, there will be a back-up check.

...plus Plate Imposters are usually pretty obvious because, if you're not holding a plate, you're not going to sent your Imposter out against Judgement Gengar or somesuch unless you're willing to make a very risky bluff that could lose you a very important Pokemon without any gain whatsoever.

Also, you're ignoring Blissey's bluff. "Is it Plate? Is it Scarf? Is it Red Card? Is it Shed Shell?" It doesn't get to bluff Eviolite, but it's not like it can't bluff at all.

I get what you're saying, but why does this apply to Blissey and not to the Kyogre vs Kyogre-Primal example? You still haven't answered that...

The main difference between Kyogre-Normal and Blissey is that Kyo was outclassed in every single relevant way. The only niche it had was being slightly better at Blue Orb sets than Pogre since it could use Magic Guard to switch into hazards for free once or maybe use Intimidate once if that even worked. And that was it and nobody ran those, not even me. Blissey actually has a few small niches over Chansey that are somewhat relevant, like the ever so slightly higher HP and being more useful after Trick or Knock Off. It's very tiny advantages, but it's enough that there are relevant situations that could warrant choosing it over Chansey if bluffing Eviolite isn't a concern.

That at least applies to Bliss vs Kyogre. The Bliss vs Alakazam-M comparison the post above me pointed out is probably a much better one.

 

[jackm]

Yes, but in your example, you're clearly not bluffing Eviolite anymore because, in that scenario, I already know your item, so of course I'd play around it accordingly. What I mean is if I have something Imposter-weak on the field and someone sends an Imposter out against it, I'm never going to sit there and wonder if they have Eviolite or not. I'm going to switch to my Imposter check regardless of what item you're holding. It doesn't matter how excessively you're bluffing Eviolite because I'm not going to ever consider taking the chance you aren't (and even then, Chansey is bulkier than most Imposter-weak Pokemon, so it'll usually win against them anyway). And my Imposter-check will be designed well enough that it won't care what item your Imposter is holding either. And if I'm running Imposter-proof sets, it will take Eviolite, Scarf, and Plate into consideration and, if it's weak to one, there will be a back-up check.

...plus Plate Imposters are usually pretty obvious because, if you're not holding a plate, you're not going to sent your Imposter out against Judgement Gengar or somesuch unless you're willing to make a very risky bluff that could lose you a very important Pokemon without any gain whatsoever.

Also, you're ignoring Blissey's bluff. "Is it Plate? Is it Scarf? Is it Red Card? Is it Shed Shell?" It doesn't get to bluff Eviolite, but it's not like it can't bluff at all.

Well obviously I'm not bluffing Eviolite anymore if you know that I'm running a Spooky Plate, but to be fair you did say, and I quote, "I'm going to treat Imposter Chansey the same whether it has Eviolite or not", which you obviously aren't doing if you say that you will play around it accordingly. However, that's beside the point.

Maybe Plate Imposters are obvious, and maybe you are prepared to deal with an Imposter Chansey carrying any of those items mentioned, but let me ask you...why does this make Blissey less outclassed? Literally every downside to an Imposter that you have mentioned applies to both Blissey and Chansey, but Chansey has the edge in that it has the ability to carry Eviolite. When it comes down to it, Blissey just isn't useful when its only practical edge on Chansey is the extra 5 base HP that it has. Even if Eviolite hypothetically disappeared, Blissey's edge on Chansey as an Imposter would be ridiculously small (obviously it would be better, but the difference is barely noticeable). The extra 5 base HP that Blissey provides corresponds to a miniscule ~1.4% increase in total bulk. When you add in the potential for Chansey to run Eviolite--or, as hasn't been mentioned but should be noted, Lucky Punch--it just isn't useful to run Blissey as an Imposter. Chansey is quite simply more effective. When it comes down to it, it's basically Chansey with a huge array of items vs. Chansey with some items but missing some really key ones, with the second Chansey being the tiniest shade bulkier.

 

[Lcass4919]

I get what you're saying, but why does this apply to Blissey and not to the Kyogre vs Kyogre-Primal example? You still haven't answered that...

yes it does? i did answer that. just because its outclassed to hell and back doesnt mean its not viable. ironicially this arguement is going on in the NU thread as we speak..so at least im not alone in my thoughts.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/oras-nu-viability-rankings.3545276/page-6#post-6400647

if this isn't going to be a viability ranking, then don't call it one.

I understand your argument, however I must ask you...do you have any idea of the ridiculousness of its implications? If we can rank anything because it operates at least somewhat decently (what I and I assume you would consider to place it in at least D rank, ignoring our disagreement on the notion of outclassedness), then I would be obligated as an educated BH player to propose that we rank Wobbuffet, Wailord, Alomomola, Snorlax, Drifblim, and Eviolite Munchlax as "viable" Impostors because fuck, they have a bunch of HP and probably work at least somewhat decently as Impostors. In addition, we should probably rank Mewtwo and Deoxys-N because they can run Protean at least somewhat decently, and we should definitely rank Rayquaza, Salamence-Mega, Salamence, Archeops, Kyurem, Glalie-Mega, Mamoswine, and Abomasnow-Mega for their ability to "viably" run -Ate FakeSpeed. Plus, Giratina-O is a great Dragon/Ghost type wall in case you're at a loss for one of those.

Yes, viability is technically the ability to operate. However, you have to understand that this viability ranking list is ultimately meant to be a tool to represent the metagame, and ignoring the outclassedness of things which are objectively "viable" unnecessarily clutters up the list. There's a reason why, for instance, Deoxys-N is as low as possible in the Ubers viability rankings (in fact, it would be unranked if not for its tiering status as an Uber!) It just isn't useful to build a viability ranking list with your dictionary definition of the term, and the fact of the matter is that we haven't been operating with that definition up to this point either. If we were, we would have like 80 Pokemon ranked and our list would just be useless to new players. I hope you understand that I don't mean to antagonize you, because I really don't, but your necessity to follow the technical definition is frankly ridiculous and counterproductive to the viability ranking process.

well, then you should probably say that to EVERY other tier, and rename this to a "power ranking" thread (lmao that guy actually describes it pretty nicely). if you are not ranking viability, then it is NOT a viability thread, plain and simple. imposter is a special case, where you cant really mark the pokemon viable, because HP is really the only relevant stat, i understand your points, but we dont HAVE to rank stuff that isnt used. but in the case that munchlax, and wailord were used more, then technically, they would be on the list too. they would be low, because they suck, but they would still be viable. like it or not, it is a viability list, and viability lists follow viability, and you cant just shrug off the definition because of its stupidity on the ranks. is BH some special case where it can break the rules? i doubt so.

 

[dsm77773]

BH Blissey is a very weird case. It is outclassed, but hell, it works, and it works well (assuming Imposter).
The viability rankings should represent the metagame, especially to new players, yes. Is Blissey metagame-defining? Nope, there's Chansey in there. But how many Blisseys have you faced? Blissey is a bit overrated in the tier imo.
Is Blissey a thing on BH? Well, kind off. Is good of a thing? Nope. The viability ranks should reflect that.
But the problem when ranking something as special as Blissey it's in the viability ranking's core itself. Blissey holds an special status in the metagame, but until we do know how much influence has every aspect of a Pokémon (as well as those aspects when related to other similar Pokémon), we won't agree in where to put it.
Another niche Blissey has over its centralizing sister is Leftovers. Leftovers cancels out weather damage (and tbh Sandstorm is the only usable weather in BH) and a mon with Lefties just can't bluff another item. It also makes it more resistant to passive damage, which otherwise hinder Imposters due to their inability to recover unless the mon it copies has recovery itself, and warranting a tiny niche over Safety Goggles, which can be bluffed, cancels Sandstorm damage as well, and on top of it it makes you immune to Spore which is huge.

 

[Rumors]

Maybe Plate Imposters are obvious, and maybe you are prepared to deal with an Imposter Chansey carrying any of those items mentioned, but let me ask you...why does this make Blissey less outclassed?

I'm not arguing that Blissey isn't outclassed. I'm not arguing that Blissey should stay in A or ascend to S. I'm supportive of it dropping, but I don't think it should go to unranked if just because 1) Megazam is ranked when the only thing it does is slightly outspeed Ytwo, which is an equally small, or possibly smaller, niche than what Blissey has over Chansey and 2) Blissey is still a reservable option for the Balanced Hackmons analyses that are going on the main site, which can't be said for some Pokemon that are B and nothing in C or lower.

 

[jackm]

yes it does? i did answer that. just because its outclassed to hell and back doesnt mean its not viable. ironicially this arguement is going on in the NU thread as we speak..so at least im not alone in my thoughts.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/oras-nu-viability-rankings.3545276/page-6#post-6400647

if this isn't going to be a viability ranking, then don't call it one.

well, then you should probably say that to EVERY other tier, and rename this to a "power ranking" thread (lmao that guy actually describes it pretty nicely). if you are not ranking viability, then it is NOT a viability thread, plain and simple. imposter is a special case, where you cant really mark the pokemon viable, because HP is really the only relevant stat, i understand your points, but we dont HAVE to rank stuff that isnt used. but in the case that munchlax, and wailord were used more, then technically, they would be on the list too. they would be low, because they suck, but they would still be viable. like it or not, it is a viability list, and viability lists follow viability, and you cant just shrug off the definition because of its stupidity on the ranks. is BH some special case where it can break the rules? i doubt so.

You continue to argue semantics, but when it comes down to it if we need to rank everything that CAN be used, the lower ranks will be insanely inflated and useless. You acknowledge this yourself, as well as that the definition we have been using creates "stupidity on the ranks". If this thread is going to follow that definition to the letter and go to shit, fine. I have no interest in continuing to work on it if we patiently follow one-size-fits-all rules that are counterproductive and make this project useless to newer players (those who have the potential to benefit the most from it). Ultimately, it's up to Piccolo to make the judgment. I have made my argument. Good day.

Also Rumors, we are on the same page in that case. I was under the impression that you were arguing for Blissey to stay high on the rankings; forgive my misunderstanding.

 

[Lcass4919]

Is Blissey metagame-defining? Nope, there's Chansey in there. But how many Blisseys have you faced? Blissey is a bit overrated in the tier imo.
Is Blissey a thing on BH? Well, kind off. Is good of a thing? Nope. The viability ranks should reflect that.

i have actually used blissey. and unlike everyone else, whos just arguing because they say its outclassed therefore its nicheless and terrible in the meta (D ranks definition), ive used blissey, and i have concluded that blissey albeit not as good as chansey, is still viable in the tier. if we arent going to make a viability thread, then DONT make one. simple as that. its not semantics. this is something that ALL tiers do. and BH shouldnt be an exception. if people are stupid enough to use blissey even though they CAN SEE CHANSEY IS CLEARLY BETTER RANKED, then thats their problem. stop treating the bh low ladder like they are fucking idiots. they might not be as good at bh as most of us are. but that doesnt mean we have to hold their hand through their bh experience. blissey can give results in the tier, really good results, and dispite that it is clearly inferior to chansey in every way, thats no reason to sweep it under the rug.

edit: oh blast it i don't care anymore. do as you will.