Analyzing Old Games

[Bam]

I agree partially with IggyBot here; having your team floating around for others to see is something many players won't be 100% comfortable with. However, I think we can all agree that simply getting permission from your opponent (and also changing their name in the log if they wish) is enough for the log to be posted.

Something else that could clarify the situation up would be to just take out the parts of the log that don't matter (you could PM your opponent with the edited version to see if they'll let you post it). Although that could be quite hard (finding parts that don't matter in the long run), it's certainly a viable option.

Last, if you can't get permission in any way, you can still post what you learned from the battle. You don't necessarily need to show everybody the log to learn from it; you can just explain the situation and tell how you reacted and how it turned out.

 

[cim]

Alright, sounds fair. A simple "opt-out of battle log system" or something would be nice, or a script to delete logs with xyz shoddy username in it would work then.

 

[IggyBot]

Well, sure it can, yes. But if you don't know who that team is made by or used by, how can you make that assumption? How can you assume the team hasn't changed or isn't different? What's to stop me now from saving all of my logs and publishing them RIGHT NOW? Seriously, this isn't any less secure than me battling you on Shoddy.

Not to mention that real competitive matches shouldn't be single battle because of random numbers and such. But that's another day.

Nothing is stopping you, but I'm sure quite a few players wouldn't want you to do so. If an actual program/forum is going to put into place specifically FOR publishing logs, then players who don't want to participate shouldn't have to. Just like any other project.

EDIT- Yeah, that's what I've been advocating the entire time, heh.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I'm going to say that while I think this over-protectie/secretive attitude is ridiculous (after all, no one is stopping spectators from stalking good players for info anyway), that I do not want to argue over the issue, and that I agree that it makes sense people should have a choice about their own participation.

Still I'll make it clear that I think if Log Analysis becomes too much of a pain in the ass, it won't happen in any meaningful form.

-If too many people are constantly denying permission, it won't be meaningful, because it won't happen enough.
-If it takes too much effort to even start a discussion, it won't be meaningful because of the same reason.
-If the logs are too old, it will lose a lot of meaning because of the changing metagame.

In other words, we need to find the set of rules that will both allow it to happen, but also to happen in a meaningful form.

Probably, even if we require permission it will be ok. I have never been turned down for permission to write a warstory, though this is probably because in part people know my warstories (I've even had opponents ask me to write them after).

My only peeve is for those situations where the log is an older one you're reviewing and found to be interesting, and can't get in contact with the opponent.

In any case, I want to see it become a practice that is both respectable and meaningful. Yes this means we need to take care to respect the wishes of the players. The "secretive" nature of pokemon is something that makes it different from games like Go or Chess and is something we should accomodate for.

Probably if it becomes wide-spread enough, people will start giving permission more and more willingly.

 

[Tleilax]

I agree with Iggybot about both sides needing to agree. I, for one, usually do NOT want my team posted. I try to run unorthodox sets that throw the opponent off-guard. I don't want people knowing my tricks before the fight even begins.

For example, let's say I'm running a Heatproof Zong. I do that fairly often, since it catches people off guard. If someone knew beforehand, because a log of one of my fights got posted, I just lost all element of surprise. This can be extended to a lot of other Pokemon, like TyraniBoah and Reversal-Luke (which I have run as well). Surprise is everything in this metagame, and your opponent knowing what you have and what to predict can be a huge disadvantage.

I would go as far as to say that spectators shouldn't be allowed to post. it should be up to the users to post the battles if they don't mind their teams being known.

 

[Ayashi]

I'm all for this idea. I think it would be a great way to learn how to be a better battler and give newcomers a place to start. I do believe though that both people should consent to their logs being saved/posted onto the forums.

A simple solution would be to make a list of players who have said it's ok to post their logs online therefore reducing the hassle of getting their ok. It would make posting the logs easier and most likely faster. Plus you wouldn't have to ask every opponent you play if you can upload the log since you could just check the list to see who has given consent.

I really can't find any reasons why this shouldn't be implemented. I think like chess we could learn how to play better by learning from our or other people's mistakes.

As long as the player's names are omitted from the log, I don't see how this could affect future battles. By not knowing the players names there is really no way to find out what team they have. Even if their team has exactly the same pokemon as someones log how would you know it's them? Imo I don't see many people using logs as a way to scout teams. I know I wouldn't take the chance of making a bad move based on a log I looked up. Anyway if anyone else can come up with a reason why this shouldn't be implemented I'd love to hear it.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Discussing the issue of requiring permission or not should not be the main factor of this discussion. It's a minor detail, and likely we will have to implement the standard of asking for permission anyway.

More than that, I think considering format, shoddy modifications, and other details as to how it could work smoothly are more important.

on one more note though
Tleilax-- Those are the words of a weak player. If you were actually strong, and well known, people would watch your games. The best players play under the condition where it's inevitable that their teams will be known, and so must construct teams that will win regardless. If you want to be really good at the game, you have to overcome that wall anyway.

 

[Tleilax]

Tleilax-- Those are the words of a weak player. If you were actually strong, and well known, people would watch your games. The best players play under the condition where it's inevitable that their teams will be known, and so must construct teams that will win regardless. If you want to be really good at the game, you have to overcome that wall anyway.

What does how well known I am have to do with anything, or my skill? My team tends to win even on repeat fights, and I find it quite bold of you to assume I must be an unskilled player simply because I prefer the element of surprise, which is perfectly natural when running sets different from the norm. I like matches to be as even as possible, even though that will often not be the case. My sue of the word "insurmountable" was hyperbole to get a point across, so perhaps I should edit it out if it's such an issue to you.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I used the phrase "Those are the words of a weak player" because I mean to belittle the words, and not your actual strength (which I have no understanding of). I myself am not an extremely strong player, without the strength to judge others. However, I do have the logical skills to see what a winning attitude and philosophy are. I have heard the best of the best say repeatedly, 'Surprise and tricks are not what real skill and are'-- this is where we get the concept of "gimmicks," and why said gimmicks are frowned on. A team and its player have to win because of their own strength, and executing their own plan.

The reason I think studying old logs is important, that is the reason for posting this thread, is because I believe that-- and I believe this is a step towards helping players reach greater levels of that type of strength.

I myself use non-standards sets-- my OU team has Modest Boah, +speed Mixmence with no DD, and +SAtk Infernape. In UU I use Quiet HP Grass Ice Shard Mix-Glaceon and No Electric attack Quiet Mix-Luxray. Never though did I think the sets I made relied on surprise factor to be effective.

I break from the standard because the standard does not fit my team, does not accomplish the task I need it to, or is simply not as good as it could be. I have confidence, with the best of my abilities, that these pokemon will do their jobs without being standard, and even if the opponent knows. Of course, I would probably make better sets and have more confidence if I had more experience-- something to be gained from observation and discussion of logs from better players.

 

[ODDish]

IggyBot
If I wanted something of mine posted in any way shape or form, I would do it myself. As much of a hassle as it is, getting your opponents permission should be required in my opinion.

I'm afraid I'm in agreement with IggyBot, I will not be sharing my logs, not that they would prove particularly useful in any event.

However the concept of sharing/analysing logs is itself sound, and the experience of those willing to participate will undoubtedly benefit many new battlers.

Chou
I could think of many potential things we could do.
1. Break it into Summary and focus on specific turns rather than whole logs
2. Create a sub-forum for log analysis

Both suggestions sound sensible, I wish you luck with it.

 

[Aldaron]

I would have no absolutely no issue with publicizing all of my battle logs for any sort of analysis / public scrutiny.

I think it would be a huge benefit to the community to have battlers come forth and open their "Secrets" and "Styles" to criticism and analysis.

 

[husk]

I'd prefer if it was just logs that were posted. No "summary" or interpretation or whatever. If you're reading to learn strategy you'll want what actually happened, not what someone else "thinks" happened. I wouldn't mind participating and analyzing logs for this and I think it is a good idea. But, as mentioned, I think everyone should do their own personal analysis. That's the best way to learn.

 

[T_T]

I'd prefer if it was just logs that were posted. No "summary" or interpretation or whatever. If you're reading to learn strategy you'll want what actually happened, not what someone else "thinks" happened. I wouldn't mind participating and analyzing logs for this and I think it is a good idea. But, as mentioned, I think everyone should do their own personal analysis. That's the best way to learn.

I agree with this one... I think its more then enough to just post the log so the user may find out themselves what happened/could happen.

 

[obi]

If we do go with a permission system, then after a certain amount of time, permission ought to be assumed. For instance, 2-3 months after the battle occurred, there is no guarantee that the opponent is even around anymore, and any secret their team had is blown by now if it was anything worth guarding.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Obi-- that makes sense to me.

ImperfectLuck-- I guess I don't see how not looking at old games is better than looking at old games. Won't you get to see when something worked and when it didn't? When it comes to making the call between DD and attacking with Gyara, of course there's no "100% right answer," but looking at what others do can help in deciding our own opinion/sense of it I think.

Also, I have no idea how to get smogon to post hiraga but kimi no signature no imi zen zen tsujitenaiya. Rikai dekehen.

 

[Pocket]

tongue-tying? lol

Yes, I also agree that it's a good idea. I do have logs where my ass got kicked badly after a ~7-0 winning streak, and perhaps I could post it and people would help my playing. Not only would studying the logs of good players be useful, but assisting not so decent players (tying in to the "like RMT" -type subforum) would also be good when their teams are otherwise perfectly fine in terms of dealing with threats, etc.
And if any new players want to get into playing a particular tier they haven't before, going over logs to see how people play would also be a useful resource that cannot be obtained from just skimming through RMTs or stats to get a general picture.

I second what Age of Kings said. Just as rmt helps people to improve their teams, this will help people to analyze what they need to improve on in terms of battling. Warstories are frequently posted up and also provide resources for analysis, but posting logs would drastically increase the quantity of these battle discussions.

I admit that the current format of shoddy logs are really hideous to read from. Perhaps we should come up with a more readable format (bold names of the Trainer, Pokemon, and moves; italicize or red font for any stat drops or critical hits). Netbattle logs, in the contrary, are very easy to look at. One major reason: for each turn, netbattle logs have dashed lines that separates the moves performed by the two players, as well as another line to separate the end-of-turn recoveries / damages.

IE:
Begin Turn #3
[sky] kaeI withdrew Heracross!
[sky] kaeI sent out Swampert (Lv.100 Swampert)!
---------------------------------
Salamence used Dragon Claw!
(38% damage)
---------------------------------
Swampert's Leftovers restored its HP a little!
End of turn #3
Pocket's Salamence: 353 HP
[sky] kaeI's Swampert: 69% HP

As far as permissions go, I really have nothing significant to say. However, asking permission for old logs is ridiculous for the same reason Obi have stated.

Thanks for bringing this up, Chou; I believe this would up the quality of battlers, too, and will definitely be educational.

 

[Darkflagrance]

Script could also be in place to mark for analysis the logs of players who attain high rank or whose ranking changes greatly in a short time.

 

[Little Green Yoda]

ImperfectLuck-- I guess I don't see how not looking at old games is better than looking at old games. Won't you get to see when something worked and when it didn't? When it comes to making the call between DD and attacking with Gyara, of course there's no "100% right answer," but looking at what others do can help in deciding our own opinion/sense of it I think.

I think what ipl is saying here is that while more available information is good, the benefit of log analysis isn't very substantial. For starters, anyone and everyone who's interested in competitive battling will likely be battling often and that experience should improve one's game more dramatically than reading a bunch of battle logs submitted by other people. (Of course, reviewing your own battle logs can help you correct your own mistakes.)

And unlike chess, Pokemon doesn't determine the victor solely upon "in-the-moment" decisions. The importance of team-building can't be overstated IMO; that skill is vastly more difficult to master than making the right battling decisions (and arguably more important in the D/P metagame). Especially when prediction in Pokemon is just a glorified game of Rock/Paper/Scissors.

I'm sure that this type of widespread log analysis could be useful to some people. But to me, it seems like it would just be a RMT, only with concrete examples of what goes on in battle.

Apologies in advance if I misrepresented your ideas, ipl.

 

[Shelcario]

I think that this idea of analyzing old battles and stuff is a great way for people out there to understand what they did wrong in their previous battles and better themselves on their battling skills.

 

[TVboyCanti]

[/list]I still don't like this. If I wanted something of mine posted in any way shape or form, I would do it myself. As much of a hassle as it is, getting your opponents permission should be required in my opinion.

I like the rest of your ideas though. I'm not sure how hard writing something such as a log profile would be for shoddy, so that would be entirely up to Doug.

Technically, you can't really claim a battle log as belonging to the player, since it was created by the programming created by Doug, not by the player playing the game, just like how MMORPG players don't actually own the characters they create, the game publisher does. Technically, Doug is the one you need to get permission from to post battle logs up. That's the way I understand it.

I support making all battle logs public domain and downloadable, at least from the last 24 hours. Team Privacy issues can be handled by replacing the players usernames with [player A] and [player B], or by replacing the players usernames with the players ladder rating at the time of the battle.

But as I understand it, its very difficult to save battle logs in shoddy because you have to copy and paste from the chat window, which doesn't hold the entire log after the battle ends.

 

[Mailbox]

Even if you do run an out-of-the-ordinary team, how many people are going to change their strategies just to deal with one surprise team? It's absurd to think that once your log goes public, everyone is going to pack counters against your team.

 

[Little Green Yoda]

But as I understand it, its very difficult to save battle logs in shoddy because you have to copy and paste from the chat window, which doesn't hold the entire log after the battle ends.

There's a "Save Log" button in the chat window but the lack of formatting means you'd have to fix the jumbled mess before it becomes legible.

 

[IggyBot]

Pendantic stuff

The whole point of posting the logs is to analyze the battle, and therefore the teams involved. These teams belong to the players, not Doug, not anyone else.

There's a "Save Log" button in the chat window but the lack of formatting means you'd have to fix the jumbled mess before it becomes legible.

Just open the log using Notepad or Wordpad, and that jumbled mess becomes perfectly readable.

 

[ODDish]

,
I support making all battle logs public domain and downloadable, at least from the last 24 hours. Team Privacy issues can be handled by replacing the players usernames with [player A] and [player B], or by replacing the players usernames with the players ladder rating at the time of the battle.

As I said earlier that might work in OU, but in the metagames with the smaller number of players it becomes much easier to figure things out, particularly if players become known for using a particular type of team.

 

[Chou Toshio]

@LGY-- The main thing I would say that differs reading logs from pure battle experience is that in battle, one only sees his own decisions and the opponent's decisions in reference to himself. You also only experience the pokemon you've actually worked with. Going over logs can grant a much broader view of battle.

@Oddish-- I've never had 2 battles with you on different days where it was the same team. :P