CAP 9 CAP 9 - Concept Assessment

[Gooey Kablooie]

I'm thinking this CaP should have multiple "choice" immunities. Through the possible use of different natures, types, and moves; allowing the person using it to choose what they're team needs to defend against, while also keeping the opponent on their toes as to what this CaP is running to counter.

I think this CaP should be able to block a ton of things, but not on the same one set.

I think we should be looking at versatility while still remaining balanced.

 

[familyguyman]

While I think that immunities are a very useful thing to have, I agree with many others that making the focus of this CAP being immune to various forms of secondary damage isn't necessarily the way to go. Deck Knight's post serves to highlight my primary concerns in this regard. I mean, we can take a look at Fidgit, who can be immune most forms of status (except Burn and Paralysis inflicted by moves other than Thunder Wave) and has Rapid Spin to get rid of hazards and such, but I don't necessarily think that he has served to "stop the secondary" in such a large way.

If we're looking to devalidate secondary forms of damage as a whole, which is how I interpret moi's concept, I would like to propose that we make this Pokemon actually turn the presence of such strategies into a potential liability for the user. We can do this in a variety of ways, most of them based around ability or various moves. My primary idea is that this Pokemon either has an ability that immediately bounces back moves like Leech Seed and Taunt (like auto Magic Coat) or it has a move that does the same, but it would be stronger than Magic Coat in that you can bounce them back at your discretion (turn 1, CAP9 switches into Celebi using Leech Seed, turn 2, the opponent switches in <generic switch-in poke> and CAP9 bounces back the Leech Seed at it). Pair it up with some status immunities and not only does this mean that the Pokemon makes a fantastic switch-in to secondary damaging moves, but it would also serve to "stop the secondary" as a whole, on a metagame level.

Now, obviously what I'm proposing is very powerful, and if people fear that would be too much, there would obviously be many other ways to interpret this/go a similar route. We could make it trade field effects with the opponent, it could only bounce back certain effects, all of this is at our discretion. But I think that taking this general approach, in addition to giving a couple of immunities, is a great way to implement this concept in a way that greatly effects the metagame and the use of secondary damaging moves.

Wouldn't immunities + Mirror Move serve that purpose? Unless I am mistaken and it does not work if the target switches

ie: CAP 9 switches in
Celebi uses Thunder Wave
It does not affect CAP 9

Celebi switches to Salamence
CAP 9 uses Mirror Move
Salamence is paralyzed

That could be an interesting alternative to Magic Coat as it has a sense of control when paired with immunities.


Sorry if that is poll jumping but if I am correct then what Beej proposes is indeed possible but could be made better and effective.

 

[CasMat]

Pokemon has to be on the field for mirror move to work.

 

[Arb]

CAP 9 should at least have rapid spin AND aromatherapy/healbell but preferably it would have some special way to block status

I RRREEEEAAAALLLLLYYYYYY like the idea of multitype, its is very multipurpose (hahaha i made a pun!)

 

[Apocalypse B-C]

Yeah, the way you combine immunities with stats and strategy are what make a pokemon potent. Immunities are really useful for sweepers who don't want to be crippled switching in - if you can get in without taking any damage, and if you're packing enough power, that one immunity can make all the difference (as familyguyman said, Heatran and Flygon are prime examples)....

So if CaP9 could be worked so that it has its own little niche of immunities but also the ability to pose a serious offensive threat to teams, it could potentially be a very dangerous weapon in the right hands.

Say, it could perhaps have a Bug/Poison typing (just as an example) and the Limber or Liquid Ooze ability, which would let it switch in on Toxic and either Thunder Wave or Leech Seed, and if it's a pokemon packing power and a diverse movepool, it could scare off a switch and get itself set up to sweep - much like Heatran, but then, Heatran fits the concept as it has been drawn out pretty well.

I guess it's just a matter of tweaking immunities, abilities, stats, to produce the optimum balance of resistances - just give it a little switch-in niche to work with and let it roll.

 

[viol and bass]

I'm thinking this CaP should have multiple "choice" immunities. Through the possible use of different natures, types, and moves; allowing the person using it to choose what they're team needs to defend against, while also keeping the opponent on their toes as to what this CaP is running to counter.

I think this CaP should be able to block a ton of things, but not on the same one set.

I think we should be looking at versatility while still remaining balanced.

It seems to me that Multitype is the best way to accomplish this. It's incredibly versatile but you're limited to what you can fit on a set and what type you choose.

 

[Sandal8]

So.. will CaP 9 also be a Two-Sided Attacker? Except with immunities?

 

[Deck Knight]

It seems to me that Multitype is the best way to accomplish this. It's incredibly versatile but you're limited to what you can fit on a set and what type you choose.

I'm going to say this once and then drop the subject.

Multitype is without exception the worst possible thing that could happen to this project.

Multitype is an invitation to an unholy shitstorm in all other polls. Everyone will be wrapped up in how to expand the movepool to infinity to be "fair" to all 17 types when we know for a fact that types are unbalanced. Poison and Grass do not dominate OU for very good reasons, and alternatively Dragon and Steel are ubiquitous for many reasons.

Multitype is essentially a built-in Neglected Ability. It drains all resources to whatever fanciful idea a random poster has and destroys completely any and all direction to the project. Where in bloody hell are you going to fit Pursuit, Rapid Spin, and/or Taunt (moves that would fulfill the concept) on a pokemon with every single semi-viable offensive attack in the game?

Nowhere. It will devolve into some ridiculous mixed pokemon with no function, purpose, or direction. Furthermore it will be impossible for the average person to analyze it, because at a base level it has 17 different possible sets.

Multitype may not necessarily be a bad ability in and of itself, but it is absolutely incompatible with CAP's current democratic process. Sticky Hold is Multitype without the absolute rape on process. Better yet why don't we just code it as a "forme" pokemon and make it immune to Trick that way like Giratina-O? It'd certainly be a lot better than speculating on what is guaranteed to become a directionless vessel in a sea of crap.

 

[Elegy]

So.. will CaP 9 also be a Two-Sided Attacker? Except with immunities?

No, probably not.
What this is probably leading to is another strong ability discussion/poll jump, since abilities have the greatest impact on a Pokemon's success. Most of the top used Pokemon would not work well without their bloodline trait.
A two-sided attacker would be something more along the lines of a couple roles for the Pokemon to play. But with this Multitype ability, its type gives it an immunity of the Trainer's choice.
Being able to choose the when and how gives CAP9 a sense of immunity-control, not immunity-abuse.

 

[Illithian]

So.. will CaP 9 also be a Two-Sided Attacker? Except with immunities?

Two-sided Attacker was designed to be offensive. We are currently exploring ideas, so theres no way of knowing what will happen. However, currently it looks like a small bit of offense will show up, and it will be some kind of a bulky support pokemon. Think Vaporeon.

 

[Raikizen]

I really want to detract attention away from entry hazards. They can be defended against with Rapid Spin and if that's not enough, I can tell you more. Entry hazards have 2 uses, to ensure a particular number of hits to KO and to be used in conjunction with Roar/Whirlwind and other secondary moves to cause switching. If that's just too much to handle, tough.

I think it's better to focus on secondary moves that force switches than on entry hazards.

I wanted to bring this back up, because I believe it is a very valid point. If entry hazards cause that much of an issue for your team, then you should probably reevaluate your team. If entry hazards aren't taken into account, I think the concept could take some more interesting turns. It doesn't have to be a spinner, nor does it have to get rid of entry hazards.

In this thread, discuss CAP 9's concept. What kinds of directions could we go from "Stopping the Secondary"?


Here's what I want discussed:

• What are common secondary moves in today's metagame?

• What does it mean to "Stop the Secondary"?

• What are the possibilities of this CAP? (Try not to poll jump too much here)

• How are immunities used in the current metagame? How can we apply that knowledge to this project?

• What do we gain from an immunity pokemon?

And of course, be sure to follow the rules.

• No bashing. Obviously this is common sense. No insulting, no passive aggressive insulting, and no witty remarks. Try to keep it clean.

What are common secondary moves in today's metagame?
Common Secondary moves in the current metagame are Will-O-Wisp, Leech Seed, Toxic, Thunderwave, Sleep-Inducers, and to a lesser extent: Healing Moves, Support Moves, and Utility Moves.

What does it mean to "Stop the Secondary"?

• This is a very variable concept. It can mean a lot of things. To me, Stop the Secondary is a take on somehow preventing and/or punishing the common users of moves with Secondary styling effects used not for direct damage, but to cause harm through its secondary ability. This would include, preventing Leech Seed, Will-o-Wisp, and Toxic from dealing damage, preventing paralysis effects, and possibly stopping other secondary moves.

What are the possibilities of this CAP? (Try not to poll jump too much here)

• I feel there are many possibilities. It could cause status usage to drop, in case the user was too severly punished. It could cause either an increase in stall or offense, depending on the direction it takes. It could give us a look into previously unused pokemon due to a necessary role being needed once secondary effects are effectively neutralized.

How are immunities used in the current metagame? How can we apply that knowledge to this project?

• Steel typing is the single greatest way immunites are applyed in the current metagame. Being able to come in due to resistances on a myriad of moves and being immune to toxic. (and in Heatrans case Fire.) Levitate is another great example of this. Levitators can easily give a huge advantage being able to come in for free on any ground type move. Typing is also a factor. Gengar and many other ghosts use their immunity to Fighting and Normal type moves to slide into battle unscathed.

What do we gain from an immunity pokemon?
I feel there are two ways to look at this question.

• The first is pure gain. We gain advantage. A pokemon with an immunity essentially gets a free switch-in. You also hard gain set up. If the foe is forced to switch out, you can easily set up a subsitute, a status move of your own, or even a stat up move.

• The other way to take this is a more subjective look at the word gain. You have gained knowledge of your opponents team, and potential moveset due to whatever you came in on. This knowledge will be invaluable if analyzed correctly. Another would be team gain. It may not show when it first appears, but I can give an example. Say you switch Heatran in on Rotom-H to determine what set it is. It does not trick. It does not Will-o-Wisp. It substitutes. Doing this, you received what I referred to as "Team Gain". You could have blocked a potentially devasting move for another of your designated pokemon while scouting the foe's moveset. If it had Tricked a Scarf, the your Scarfed Heatran wouldn't mind. If it had Will-o-Wisped, then it still would have not minded. Thus, Heatran was the safe choice. If this doesn't make much sense to anyone else, and you would like me to elaborate further, please let me know. I apologize if it isn't clear immediately.

 

[reachzero]

Deck Knight, I could not disagree with you more completely. Multitype could be by far the best thing that could happen to this CAP. The fact that it IS edgy is what makes it ideal for the sort of experimentation that CAP is supposed to be all about. More to the point, it actually works better for the concept than Sticky Hold does, since a Sticky Hold Pokemon cannot choose whether to resist Stealth Rock, be immune to Toxic or Burn, etc.

 

[familyguyman]

I'm going to say this once and then drop the subject.

Multitype is without exception the worst possible thing that could happen to this project.

Multitype is an invitation to an unholy shitstorm in all other polls. Everyone will be wrapped up in how to expand the movepool to infinity to be "fair" to all 17 types when we know for a fact that types are unbalanced. Poison and Grass do not dominate OU for very good reasons, and alternatively Dragon and Steel are ubiquitous for many reasons.

Multitype is essentially a built-in Neglected Ability. It drains all resources to whatever fanciful idea a random poster has and destroys completely any and all direction to the project. Where in bloody hell are you going to fit Pursuit, Rapid Spin, and/or Taunt (moves that would fulfill the concept) on a pokemon with every single semi-viable offensive attack in the game?

Nowhere. It will devolve into some ridiculous mixed pokemon with no function, purpose, or direction. Furthermore it will be impossible for the average person to analyze it, because at a base level it has 17 different possible sets.

Multitype may not necessarily be a bad ability in and of itself, but it is absolutely incompatible with CAP's current democratic process. Sticky Hold is Multitype without the absolute rape on process. Better yet why don't we just code it as a "forme" pokemon and make it immune to Trick that way like Giratina-O? It'd certainly be a lot better than speculating on what is guaranteed to become a directionless vessel in a sea of crap.

While I think it's broken on a mind game level, I'd hope the community here tries to restrict the offensive movepool.

Regardless, Plus has said not to get OT with focusing on Multitype.

Perhaps we need to look at a higher level at what Secondary does for a team's strategy and style.

In general, secondary moves are no fun for Stall teams since they need each member alive and healthy and Taunt/Trick is crippling. In fact, Secondary likely hurts Pokemon who hang around battle (stay in for long periods) the most, though entry hazards hurt Hyper-Offense the most. Bulky Offense would likely have something to absorb Trick/Taunt and can handle entry hazards decently.

So something that can fit Stall and Hyper-Offense well...that could be hard.

 

[Urza]

what about the possibility of a judgement type attack so that people AREN'T worried about giving it a movepool to abuse. give it a few coverage type attacks that many pokemon get (earthquake comes to mind) and then an attack that matches it's type? this would allow it to focus on stopping the secondary effects of attacks...

 

[Elegy]

I wanted to bring this back up, because I believe it is a very valid point. If entry hazards cause that much of an issue for your team, then you should probably reevaluate your team. If entry hazards aren't taken into account, I think the concept could take some more interesting turns. It doesn't have to be a spinner, nor does it have to get rid of entry hazards.

Well, the thing is, entry hazards are always going to be a big deal. Its not practical for your team to consist completely of Steel, Ground, and Fighting types just so you can avoid including a spinner. Interesting turns toward other preventative methods perhaps?

what about the possibility of a judgement type attack so that people AREN'T worried about giving it a movepool to abuse. give it a few coverage type attacks that many pokemon get (earthquake comes to mind) and then an attack that matches it's type? this would allow it to focus on stopping the secondary effects of attacks...

Well this is probably exactly what GameFreak went through when designing Arceus. Including a Judgement attack of sorts would absolutely ruin the whole point of including anti-secondary attacks and turn it into an offensive attacker. Although I may be wrong, and it could turn out that this Judgement attack of sorts would deride all other matter about offensive movepool...

 

[Raikizen]

Well, the thing is, entry hazards are always going to be a big deal. Its not practical for your team to consist completely of Steel, Ground, and Fighting types just so you can avoid including a spinner. Interesting turns toward other preventative methods perhaps?

This is along my line of thinking. I do not think we need another Mountaineer, nor do we need an "Uber Spinner". Perhaps something that can adequately deal with entry hazards without that becoming it's sole focus.

 

[The Real Elmo]

Just gonna throw this out there but, why not give CAP 9 Multiple forms?
each form could have a different type (like grass/poison or steel/ground) to protect from different status moves depending on what your team needs.

 

[Erazor]

Are we creating a Pokemon that is personally immune or able to avoid a variety of these effects, or will it be able to protect its team mates from at least some of those effects as well?

Will it be relying on the opponent using a non-damaging move to switch in? Once in, will it be able to threaten and ko the opposing Pokemon, or simply neutralize its ability to mess with your team?

This is a very important question. Is CAP9 itself immune to "the secondary", or can it assist it's teammates as well?

 

[Raikizen]

This is a very important question. Is CAP9 itself immune to "the secondary", or can it assist it's teammates as well?

It could be immune (through it's own ability), help its teammates (through a move; possibly even a new one), or it could even find common middle ground and do both. Personally, I would go down the final route of common ground.

Making the rest of the team immune sounds much like something that would just "Safeguard" then leave. While, being immune itself seems like it would only be good on a sweeper of sorts. I would like to see it provide balanced offensive and supporting roles on a team.

 

[CasMat]

Even if the multitype does make it through the creation process, won't it be a little much? I mean, If you make something with a good anti-secondary effect movepool and the ability to have any type and in all likeliness good defensive stats, then you are also making something that can fit probably far too easily onto any team. Multitype seems like a giant risk just for being possibly over centralizing simply because it would be so easy to use. The ability to use these types to absorb statuses and effects also translates into the ability to use the resists for general defense. You just have to choose the type that's not weak to what you already have well covered, and hey look CAP 9 fits perfectly on your team. I mean, the movepool is largely the deciding factor here, but even with a judgement type move, assuming it's stronger than hidden power, this thing could come out as 17 new tanks all with different counters as opposed to one new tank that can counter different secondary effects depending on moveset.

 

[threeQuestions]

This just feels like too much...

I think we need to focus on deterring secondairy moves instead of preventing them.

Here are Deterant items/abilitys/moves:

Substitute- Blocks sleep, painsplit, leechseed, paralizasis, burn, etc.

Shed skin- Cures status in battle.

Haze- reverts stat up.

Safegaurd- Protects team from status.

natural cure- cures status on switchout.

Healbell/aromatherapy- Cures status of all teammates.

Rest + Earlybird- cures status, restores Hp, quick wakeup.

Guts- with status raises attack

Marvel scale- with status raises def.

Weather moves- can ruin fun of opponent's weather teams.

Poison heal- + HP w/ poison status.

Black sludge- Hurts trick users

Syncronize- who likes a taste of their own medicine?

 

[Onii]

It could be immune (through it's own ability), help its teammates (through a move; possibly even a new one), or it could even find common middle ground and do both. Personally, I would go down the final route of common ground.

I'm not sure common ground would be beneficial. Currently, there isn't really any way of doing both apart from sub-passing, but then we wouldn't be learning anything except how good that tactic is.

Also, I think that Multitype should not be considered unless there is no other way to deal with a particular set of secondary moves. Therefore, the first priority should be to reach some consensus as to which secondary moves to deal with (one can't/shouldn't do everything).

EDIT: threeQuestions, I'm not sure about the distinction you're trying to draw. Substitute is definitely a "preventative" measure, as it blocks status, same with Safeguard. On the other hand, I do agree that we should have a look at different ways of dealing with the same thing, whether to prevent (e.g. Substitute/type immunities), or to punish (e.g. Guts/Psycho Shift), or w/e.

 

[MetalGearSamus]

I'm surprised this hasn't come up before:
What about Synchronize?
It was mentioned that CAP9 could punish other Pokemon for using "secondary effects" and synchronize does exactly that right?

And what about a new ability/move that does what Sync. does, but for different effects (i.e. throws entry hazards back at the enemy, reverses leach seed, etc.)

Hope that wasn't too specific, I was just throwing an idea out there.

How are immunities used in the current metagame? How can we apply that knowledge to this project?

Immunities are used:
-To allow for switch ins that would otherwise hurt the Pokemon
-Absorb an attack and use that free turn to set up entry hazards, boost stats, etc.
-Prevents negative effects that would otherwise cripple the Pokemon (i.e. burn/parlysis immunity on a physical sweeper, or poison immunity on a staller.)
-To cover the weaknesses of other Pokemon on you team, if you have a Pokemon that is 4x weak to fire, you're going to want a Pokemon with flash fire to cover that weakness.
-Prevent a certain condition from destroying your sweep/stall.

Knowing this, we could base CAP9 around an immunity to certain common/annoying secondary effects (like 2 or 3, maybe 4) and then give it moves/ability(s) that support its team and prevent other secondary effects from coming into play.

 

[viol and bass]

What about an ability making it so that secondary effects fail or are bounced back on the user on the switch-in? It wouldn't be too broken, necessarily, because theoretically you could get statused the next turn but if you paired it with something like magic coat (assuming the move would fail) it would be pretty effective.

 

[Illithian]

Synch was mentioned.