CAP 9 CAP 9 - Concept Assessment

[princesorj]

Just throwing this out there but how about an auto-Substitute CaP? I like the idea of it being able to stop status upon switching out and I don't think it would be completely broken because it IS giving up 1/4 of it's health every time it gets sent out. I think it will severely add to the mind games of pokemon battling as the opponent has to think even more deeply than before. Also, regarding hazard entries, if we gave it a pretty good typing (i.e. Steel/Flying) then it would take average damage from SE and also be immune to Spikes)

If people are concerned about CaP 9 losing too much life every time it is sent out, how about we tweak the ability so that only 1/8 of it's life is lost instead of 1/4? Or we could play around it by having a pokemon set up Wish before sending out CaP 9.

Just a thought.

 

[Gooey Kablooie]

auto sub would be too much IMO.

It essentially gives you a free attack + resistance to everything before mentioned.

 

[Umbreon Dan]

I agree with Beej almost one hundred percent. When this Pokemon comes out, your opponent should be thinking to himself, "damn, I shouldn't have used [trick/spikes/toxic/whatever]". This has potential to change the metagame as a whole.

To me, Trick should be the top priority of the threats. Trick is really common, and right now, there are no really good answers to it in OU. That said, I want to see a variety of moves covered: a status move or two, an entry hazard, etc.

As for Multitype: Absolutely not. I know I was a big proponent of it yesterday, and I'm still extremely keen on the idea of a CAP with Multitype. Just not this CAP. It really doesn't fit the concept at all. Many of the higher-ups expressed interest in Multitype as well, but that was before the concept was chosen. If Multitype actually fit the concept, I would be all over it. It just doesn't, and I'm not throwing the concept out the window just because Multitype is cool.

Some of you have been saying, "Multitype means it can be any type, so it can cover any status!" Well, that's not true. That's the same as saying that Bronzong has no weaknesses because it has Levitate and Heatproof. In practice, Bronzong will always have one weakness, no matter which ability you choose.

Multitype will only ever protect you from two or three moves, tops (including Trick). That's not a variety. Apart from that, it doesn't take advantage of the opponent having used those passive moves in any way. It's just, "yeah, I'm immune." Like I said above, I want the opponent to actually regret using said move. Further, there are many moves you will never be immune to (not that immunities are terribly important). Will-o-Wisp, for example, will always hit a multitype Pokemon, because let's face it, nobody is going to use mono-Fire.

Frankly, Multitype would be a total waste on this CAP. Let's wait until CAP10 to do Multitype. For now, we have a good concept, and we should stick with it. I believe we need a custom move or ability to do so. What Beej suggested looks great to me.

 

[familyguyman]

Again this is starting to get OT.

Are we really done discussing the concept?

All I've seen us conclude is that immunities are nice, Multitype is viable but "edgy", Secondary has a very general definition and people like to poll jump (guilty).


On the note of Multitype, something that might be worth looking into is Type Changing via Conversion, Conversion 2 and Color Change. I do believe this was another concept but it might fit here. Being able to semi control your type based on prediction and move set construction could be interesting.

Another possibility for immunity variability is Trace. In the vein of Porygon-2 and Gardevoir, CAP9 with Trace could get some key immunities, including status by tracing Natural Cure. Now, between type changing and Trace, Porygon-2 does it already but these are just basic ideas.

Trace + good initial typing + Conversion(2) could make for some real annoying times, especially if paired with Rapid Spin and Shadow Ball as the typing change from Ghost to Normal and back would be useful and it could function as an anti-spinner + spinner + have lots of immunities.

ie:
CAP 9
Type: Steel
Ability: Trace

Shadow Ball
Rapid Spin
Conversion
Recover

Don't take this as a forcing, I'm just trying to get creative with moves and abilities to stimulate discussion.


Cheers!

 

[Gooey Kablooie]

I agree with Beej almost one hundred percent. When this Pokemon comes out, your opponent should be thinking to himself, "damn, I shouldn't have used [trick/spikes/toxic/whatever]". This has potential to change the metagame as a whole.

To me, Trick should be the top priority of the threats. Trick is really common, and right now, there are no really good answers to it in OU. That said, I want to see a variety of moves covered: a status move or two, an entry hazard, etc.

The problem with punishing is that it's slightly more limited in scope than just being immune. In actuality when you switch in with an immune poke and they just used one of your immune moves they still have a *headdesk* because they gave you a free switch.

One thing I totally agree with you on though is that trick should be a top priority, then a entry hazard, and then whatever status' could be fit in afterwards.

I see status' as the easiest to avoid through typing and abilities, while Trick and entry hazards are slightly harder to get around. The punishing or resistance to Trick is what really attracts me to this CaP, and I believe that goes for many others as well. It's also what I see as the largest metagame changing aspect of this CaP. Entry hazards come second on my list, rather than status, simply because they are so prevalent.

 

[nardd]

yes, but if we just make a pokemon that takes out those trickers, we just make another sweeping pokemon that happens to have a slight advantage towards those opponents.

I think the punishing route is the best one for this CaP. We keep our niched 'mon, as well as experiment with the metagame by stopping the secondary via punishing those moves.

I liked Beej's method as well, in case you were wondering :]

 

[Gooey Kablooie]

yes, but if we just make a pokemon that takes out those trickers, we just make another sweeping pokemon that happens to have a slight advantage towards those opponents.

I don't really think that's true at all. Something to take out Trickers would help a Stall playstyle more than anything IMO, and did I miss something about this poke only being a sweeper if it takes out Trick? I just don't get that logic, please elaborate.

 

[zorbees]

Some of you have been saying, "Multitype means it can be any type, so it can cover any status!" Well, that's not true. That's the same as saying that Bronzong has no weaknesses because it has Levitate and Heatproof. In practice, Bronzong will always have one weakness, no matter which ability you choose.

No, that isn't the same. Saying Bronzong can have no weaknesses is not true because that assumes you are using both abilities at the same time. However, saying Bronzong can patch up both of its weaknesses would be comparable to saying Multitype can cover a variety of secondary effects. Both of these things can happen, but not at one time. The concept does not require a variety of secondary moves be covered at one time. The concept asks for a Pokemon that can cover a variety of secondary moves, and a Multitype Pokemon can cover a variety of effects.

TLDR: Multitype is viable as it fits the concept.

I do think it still has to be decided if this Pokemon is supposed to benefit its teammates or just use these immunities for free switches. Flygon, for example, doesn't offer team support, but can switch into Thunder Wave, Electric and Ground moves in general, doesn't terribly mind Toxic, doesn't mind Taunt, can U-turn out of Leech Seeders, and doesn't mind Trick since the most commonly Tricked item is Choice Scarf. However, something like Fidgit uses Rapid Spin and Wish to support its team as well as using Encore to give its teammates better opportunities to switch in.

 

[Walvren]

If we're going through with the multitype shebang, maybe we can think of a way to help cushion the blow of secondaries the pokemon isn't immune to. I've said this before, secondaries are used to force switches so make this pokemon comfortable with staying in the battle for long(er) periods of time...

 

[Lord Jesseus]

Common Secondary moves?
Everyone has mentioned trick quite a few times... I personally don't see it often but when I do... grrrrrr.... We can really only deal with this through abilities as far as I can tell.
Obviously status is a big one. Typing can easily give some immunites, and I'm liking the idea of Aromatherapy or Safeguard to protect the other team members from such effects.
I'm not to excited about dealing with entry hazards to be honest... We have a few good spinners, tanunters etc and a lot of ways to get around it. Some resistances to these could be good for the CAP but I'm not sure Rapid Spin or other ways of directly eliminating them is optimal. Honestly I think focus needs to be on Trick and status. Trick seems to be what most people are aiming for but obviously we can't centre the entire project on countering one move.

As for what it means to stop the secondary...
Some immunities are good, and I also like the idea of helping teammates a little too. But giving it some offensive power is probably good so it's not otherwise a dead weight/setup bait, and to punish secondary users a little with your free turn. (as someone else mentioned).

So some possibilities...
I'm not trying to poll jump too much, just some food for thought...
One way to go might be a pokemon with some decent supporting options, nice immunities and decent (but not amazing) power, possibly with some set-up move to take advantage of the free turn. Not so powerful as to become a massively successful sweeper, just something to save you from trick/status, do some damage and maybe come back later.
Personally I'm liking Multitype as an ability, it gives immunity to trick and a status of your choice and/or resistance to whatever entry hazards you decide. It could be a bit iffy, but CAP is about experimenting right?
(Just a fun thought I had - A Multitype Cap with a Flame Plate and Pursuit would eat Rotom alive).
But as I say, this paragraph is really just food for thought, you can take whatever aspects from this as you like if any.

 

[Chomz]

I think this CAP should adopt more of a support approach, unless it is ABSOLUTELY sure it can quickly remove the danger posed by the Pokemon which use the aforementioned threats. But really, I don't really see how that's possible, considering how Trickscarfers don't always Trick very early in the game, status effects can pretty much appear anytime, and certain Stealth Rock users can often survive to set up again midgame. A bulky Pokemon capable of repeated switch-ins will probably be necessary to keep its teammates safe.

 

[Pisti]

I hope I did this stuff right...

• What are common secondary moves in today's metagame?

Leech Seed, Will-O-Wisp, Toxic, Thunder Wave, etc.

• What does it mean to "Stop the Secondary"?

To prevent or negate special effects, etc, with abilities and moves such as Cloud Nine, Rapid Spin, etc.

• What are the possibilities of this CAP? (Try not to poll jump too much here)

Rapid Spin can remove Leech Seed, and entry hazards. Psycho Shift can remove status and send them back at your opponent. Abilities such as Guts, Quick Feet, and Synchronize can hinder your opponent for inflicting status on you.

• How are immunities used in the current metagame? How can we apply that knowledge to this project?

Immunities are often used to switch into attacks, and either increase the chance for your opponent to use a different attack (If you were, say, battling a Dusknoir with Shadow Punch/Focus Punch/Earthquake/filler [bad example, I know], and you had a Heatran, Gengar, and a Blissey, you could switch to Gengar on the Earthquake, then to Blissey on the Shadow Punch, and you would then be able to use Toxic while Focus Punch can only say, 2HKO you, while you can stall with Softboiled or attack with Ice Beam) or to block the move and take them out (If something like a DDed Gyarados is out against a Magnezone, you can switch in something like a Scarfed Gengar in hopes of them Earthquaking, and can kill them without sacrificing Magnezone).

• What do we gain from an immunity pokemon?

We gain the capabilities to switch into attacks, and supporting our team by removing secondary effects that may hinder them, such as a Sashed Pokemon hating entry hazards and weather effects, while with them out of the picture, it could be deadly.

Also, looking at moi's list as well, these are what I've thought of:

Sleep: Vital Spirit, Substitute, Insomnia, Taunt, Safeguard, etc.
Poison: Poison-type, Immunity, Substitute, Taunt, Steel-type, Safeguard, Magic Guard, etc.
Paralysis: Safeguard, Limber, Ground-typing (for Thunder Wave), Ghost-typing (for Body Slam), Quick Feet (but you still can be fully paralyzed), Volt Absorb/Motor Drive (for Thunder Wave), etc.
Confusion: Own Tempo, Safeguard, etc.
Attract: Oblivious, Genderless Pokemon, Taunt, Substitute, Safeguard (I think), etc.
Burn: Water Veil, Guts, Flash Fire, Fire-type, Substitute, Safeguard, Taunt (for Will-O-Wisp), etc.
Freeze: Magma Armor, Substitute, Safeguard, Shield Dust, etc.
Stealth Rocks: Rapid Spin, Rock-resistance (to weaken it), Magic Guard, Mountaineer, Taunt, etc.
Spikes: Flying-type, Levitate, Rapid Spin, Magic Guard, Taunt, etc.
Toxic Spikes: Poison-type, Steel-type, Rapid Spin, Levitate, Flying-type, Taunt, Magic Guard, etc.
Weather Conditions (Hail, Sandstorm, Rain, Sun): Ice-type, Rock-type, Steel-type, Ground-type, Ice Body, Sand Veil, Magic Guard, Snow Cloak, Magic Guard, Air Lock, Cloud Nine, etc.
Gravity: Taunt, etc.
Trick Room: Low speed, Taunt, Trick Room, etc.
Trick: Multitype, Taunt, Klutz, Sticky Ooze, etc.
Taunt: Faster Taunt, not using non-offense moves, OHKOing them before they attack, etc.
Encore: Taunt, being Choiced, etc.
Leech Seed: Rapid Spin, Grass-type, Liquid Ooze, Substitute, Taunt, etc.

 

[Coronis]

I think that punishing teams for using some form of secondary damage move. Such as status leech seed entry hazards or trick rooms. I rather think that would be better than stopping them altogether.

Yeah, short post but that's all I have to say on the subject.

 

[TEA_DEMON]

I, for one, don't think the CAP should bother with Attract, Trick Room or Gravity. Even though I don't like it, Trick Room and Gravity are gimmicks, and Attract is inferior to paralysis. Taunt is too hard to get around to bother with, and it's really only used on anti-leads and to prevent setup. I think the big ones here are status, entry hazards and Trick, and the CAP doesn't have to focus on preventing all of these. It just needs to have the ability to slot onto any team any be able to take any of these threats that really cripples the team in question, allowing the team to function better and not have to worry about status as much. Sure, this will mean that the CAP will be targeted more by sweepers and most teams will require a counter for it (stall teams in particular, but hyper offense teams which rely on some degree of residual damage eg. Stealth Rock will too to an extent), but we're not meant to make it uncounterable.

I think the CAP just needs to be versatile enough to take on several status threats on one set, not take them all out at once.

Also, I'm kinda for Multitype. It goes with what I said about being able to fit into teams.

 

[Walvren]

I think that punishing teams for using some form of secondary damage move. Such as status leech seed entry hazards or trick rooms. I rather think that would be better than stopping them altogether.

Yeah, short post but that's all I have to say on the subject.

Punishing obviously implies offense, so is that what you mean?

There are two ways of looking at this. Either way, this pokemon will force switches and stay switched in.

 

[Wombat Sky Forme]

I think Insomnia or Sticky Hold are good choices for ability. I don't like Multitype because you only get a small number of resists and immunities, when CAP could have more with actual types. Plus, you waste the item on the Plate.

 

[Coronis]

Punishing obviously implies offense, so is that what you mean?

There are two ways of looking at this. Either way, this pokemon will force switches and stay switched in.

The pokemon could have an ability or move that deals secondary(lol) damage to an opponents pokemon or something like that. Depending on what entry hazards etc. they have used.

 

[X-Act]

A lot of people have been wondering, what did you have in mind when you talked about things this CAP could handle. I've come up with a relatively simple list for you reading pleasure.

Sleep
Poison
Paralysis
Confusion
Attract
Burn
Freeze
Stealth Rocks
Spikes
Toxic Spikes
Weather Conditions (Hail, Sandstorm, Rain, Sun)
Gravity
Trick Room
Trick
Taunt
Encore
Leech Seed

The goal of this concept from my written perspective is to be able to stop a variety of the moves I have just posted. The key word that people need to focus on, and I CANNOT stress this enough, is variety. In no way, shape, or form, should this Pokémon be able to stop every thing I have just listed.

I just want to emphasize that there is already a move that stops ALL of those moves, if only for a few turns - Taunt. Is Taunt too powerful of a move, I wonder? Unless you mean to _remove_ those effects if they're already in play, which I don't think you do, I don't see how stopping all of those is really that broken, when a move exists that already stops all of those moves and more.

 

[Toaster]

Trick Room and Gravity are gimmicks

Although trick room and gravity arent that common,they are not gimmicks.Trick room can be somewhat effective for slow pokemon to wreak havoc.and Gravity can be used for those who are using Low accuary moves.it also gives this CAP some extra support.

anyway regarding mois list:like most have mentioned,Attarct should be removed.Its almost inferior to para or sleep when it comes to disabling the opponent.

I think that torment deserves special mention,As it can outstall choice attackers(like scizor) who are fairly common.

 

[Naxte]

I just want to emphasize that there is already a move that stops ALL of those moves, if only for a few turns - Taunt. Is Taunt too powerful of a move, I wonder? Unless you mean to _remove_ those effects if they're already in play, which I don't think you do, I don't see how stopping all of those is really that broken, when a move exists that already stops all of those moves and more.

Taunt doesn't stop a Pokemon from being vulnerable to them on the turn it switches in, though. That's why it wasn't mentioned.

 

[Walvren]

The pokemon could have an ability or move that deals secondary(lol) damage to an opponents pokemon or something like that. Depending on what entry hazards etc. they have used.

Custom ability/move? I'm sure offense can cover us. It's undesireable to create custom moves or abilities and multitype and sticky hold have been mentioned so lets leave it at that.

 

[viol and bass]

After this thread closes, is there a thread in which we vote on what manifestation of the concept we want? Because we're absolutely never going to reach a concensus.

 

[Fuzznip]

We need to stop talking about abilities, that can be talked about in its discussion thread. Anyway, I agree that we should ask ourself this:

How will Stop the Secondary stop secondary effects?

What I mean by this is, will this concept be taking advantage of these moves? Will it just be completely immune to them? Will it threaten the common users of secondary effects?

For me, I'd want to take this concept into taking advantage of said secondary moves. I don't really think having immunities is good enough. Sure you can switch right into Leech Seed if your Grass-type, but then what will you do? By making this Pokemon become more "threatening" when hit by secondary moves, it might just make the opponent think twice before using whatever secondary move it wants to use.

I also feel that this concept should not only abuse them, but threaten the common users of many of them at the same time. I mean, what if CAP9 can abuse Leech Seed, but can't do a thing against Celebi? That's a bit worthless if you ask me. So if we have this concept to threaten these Pokemon, it may just reduce the use of the common secondary moves.

In short, I feel this concept should take an offensive approach, by abusing secondary effects and threatening the common users of them, rather than just scoring free switch ins by immunities.

 

[TekkenStorm]

This isn't "abuse secondary effects" concept but "stop secondary effects"

Abusing them is entirely the opposite of what this concept is.

 

[superdoctor]

What about Magic Guard + Rapid Spin + Flame Orb?
Magic Guard prevents Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Stealth Rock, Burn, Poison, Leech Seed, Hail and Sandstorm.
Rapid Spin to remove hazards.
Flame Orb prevents Sleep, Paralysis and burns Tricker.