Max speed is okay for the CB set, but for Taunt Crobat its pointless. Might as well invest in atk(if using U-turn or BB) or its defences. Since it does a good job of checking dangerous threats. And why are Sceptile, Weavile, and Scarfloom being mentioned at all as reason to max speed? Considering they are rarely seen.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Crobat (Update)
- Thread starter Zystral
- Start date
choice band brave bird deals 63.8% - 75.3% to jolteon in contrast to 32.8% - 38.7% from the utility set (or 50% max from super fang but that can't ko so it's irrelevant)... that seems like a lot of damage that you could use in a clutch situation
deals 53.8% - 63.5% to aerodactyl which isn't as much but still quite a bit
also you don't have roost so the added hp/def doesn't do all that much for you
not "that much" is 44.9% - 53% to 156/96 gyarados after intimidate huh, by the way 4/0 gyarados takes 56.2% - 66.2% after intimidate OUCH... not to mention the main point of this is so you can revenge kill gyarados which means no intimidate
I know what Brave Bird does. I have already explained that CB Crobat should not be in those 50/50 situations in the first place. If Gyarados switches in on Crobat as it Brave Birds, then Crobat has done it's job, max speed or no max speed, so I assume you are talking about Gyarados switching in after something dies, so your opponent has seen Brave Bird, therefore he or she (should) knows that Crobat has a Choice Band and therefore shouldn't stay in/switch in anyways. If Gyarados switches in then that's not revenging.
I like your avatar though
I like your avatar though
Well yeah, duh.. we all know that. However in pokemon there are many less than ideal situations. If your team is about to be swept by a SpecsJolt that 50% chance can save your ass. A toss up is better than an outright loss. I'm not even a speed tie junkie but it has its merits, especially with Crobat. Oh, and how about CB Crobat OHKOing a +1 Adamant DD gyarados after SR? Point for max speed.
If everyone knows that then why bring it up? If a team is swept by specsjolt and has to rely on a crobat to beat it, then that team needs a lot of work. For Brave Bird to OHKO, Crobat needs to switch in without Gyara attacking, or without gyara being jolly, which I've already explained. Something else like suicune should be countering Gyarados. It's not just "a toss up is better than an outright loss", it's "a toss up is better than 108 EVs of bulk". Which isn't true
Contributing to the bloodshed of Max Speed vs Bulk...
Well, actually, I'm in wonderment about this. But if the bulk is really that good, what significance does it play against certain opponents? Just think of it this way:
By sacrificing some Speed, you have a bit more Bulk and can switch in more then perfectly often (surprisingly!), but you can't have a chance of saving your team from being murdered-Rokkenjima style- by fast killers like DD's Adamant Gyarados and Jolteon.
By not investing in anything else at all, things like Suicune's Surf stings a bit harder, but you have that one chance to save your team.
Calcs would be helpful, in my opinion. Like when Kingdra invests ~100 EV's in HP, Lucario's Extremespeed hits -10% less.
Oh, and also:
Well, actually, I'm in wonderment about this. But if the bulk is really that good, what significance does it play against certain opponents? Just think of it this way:
By sacrificing some Speed, you have a bit more Bulk and can switch in more then perfectly often (surprisingly!), but you can't have a chance of saving your team from being murdered-Rokkenjima style- by fast killers like DD's Adamant Gyarados and Jolteon.
By not investing in anything else at all, things like Suicune's Surf stings a bit harder, but you have that one chance to save your team.
Calcs would be helpful, in my opinion. Like when Kingdra invests ~100 EV's in HP, Lucario's Extremespeed hits -10% less.
Oh, and also:
You don't get banned for making an argument you stand for, as long as it isn't trolltastic or AHAHA.wav worthy. Please, contribute more.
Since the Speed argument's going on a repetitive rush, I'm gonna have to agree with M-BLADE on this one. Max Speed just for the sake of outrunning Gyarados because it's seen modestly high usage these days and people don't want to get swept by a Gyarados, now do they?
Max Speed for the primary spread, AC the Bulky Spread positively because it's good too.
Max Speed for the primary spread, AC the Bulky Spread positively because it's good too.
I support max Spe on the CB set for reasons already listed. However, on the Utility set, I would like to see the bulkier spread be the main option. I haven't tested NP Crobat myself, so if anyone can weigh in on their experiences with that, it would be greatly appreciated!
Super Mario Bro
All we ever look for
By the "bulkier spread", do you mean the spread that was in AC before: 168 HP / 88 Def / 252 Spe Jolly? If so, I completely support this -- that spread is amazing.
I don't get what the max speed vs. bulk debate is for to begin with. EV points are taken from attack, not defenses.
Sorry, I should have clarified that. The "bulkier spread" I'm referring to is 168 HP / 88 Def / 108 SpD / 144 Spe. Honestly, wasting 108 EVs so that you can speed tie rarely used Pokemon who would OHKO you if you lose the tie is not a good idea. The amount of extra special bulk you would get instead will make much more of a difference in 90% of the matches played. Crobat really loves eating un-STAB'd Ice Beams and using Super Fang, or living Fire Blasts from Heatran and shooting off Super Fangs right back. To illustrate this spread just a little bit, here are some calcs:
Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 168 HP / 0 SpD: 72.2% - 85.3% - Good chance to OHKO after SR
Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 168 HP / 108 SpD: 64% - 75.6% - Rarely a KO after SR
SR Lead Heatran Fire Blast vs. 168 HP / 0 SpD: 67.1% - 79% - Chance to OHKO after SR
SR Lead Heatran Fire Blast vs. 168 HP / 108 SpD: 58.9% - 69.7% - Never OHKOs after SR
Offensive Leftovers Suicune +1 Ice Beam vs. 168 HP / 0 SpD: 82.7% - 97.5% - Always a OHKO after SR and Leftovers
Offensive Leftovers Suicune +1 Ice Beam vs. 168 HP / 108 SpD: 72.5% - 85.6% - Good chance of surviving after SR + Leftovers
MixPert Ice Beam vs. 168 HP / 0 SpD: 40.8% - 48.2%
MixPert Ice Beam vs. 168 HP / 108 SpD: 35.7% - 42.5%
Anyways, over time, the damage really starts to add up against Crobat, and having that extra special defense has proven to be very very useful to me in testing. The extra speed... not so much. I mostly only even like max Spe on the Choice Band set because of its ability to hit Adamant Gyarados so hard. On the Utility set, where you don't have much Atk investment, I would much much rather just make it as bulky as possible, while only worrying about the base 115's and Scarf Ttar.
Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 168 HP / 0 SpD: 72.2% - 85.3% - Good chance to OHKO after SR
Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 168 HP / 108 SpD: 64% - 75.6% - Rarely a KO after SR
SR Lead Heatran Fire Blast vs. 168 HP / 0 SpD: 67.1% - 79% - Chance to OHKO after SR
SR Lead Heatran Fire Blast vs. 168 HP / 108 SpD: 58.9% - 69.7% - Never OHKOs after SR
Offensive Leftovers Suicune +1 Ice Beam vs. 168 HP / 0 SpD: 82.7% - 97.5% - Always a OHKO after SR and Leftovers
Offensive Leftovers Suicune +1 Ice Beam vs. 168 HP / 108 SpD: 72.5% - 85.6% - Good chance of surviving after SR + Leftovers
MixPert Ice Beam vs. 168 HP / 0 SpD: 40.8% - 48.2%
MixPert Ice Beam vs. 168 HP / 108 SpD: 35.7% - 42.5%
Anyways, over time, the damage really starts to add up against Crobat, and having that extra special defense has proven to be very very useful to me in testing. The extra speed... not so much. I mostly only even like max Spe on the Choice Band set because of its ability to hit Adamant Gyarados so hard. On the Utility set, where you don't have much Atk investment, I would much much rather just make it as bulky as possible, while only worrying about the base 115's and Scarf Ttar.
Hmmm, interesting. In that case wouldn't maxing HP first then re-allocating the leftover EVs into defenses be more efficient? Something like 252 HP / Defenses / 144 Spe. Or 232 HP gives you 369, which is Lefties +1 and odd, where as Max HP is even. I'm just getting at generally HP first is generally first priority since we are scrapping speed and attack.
Super Mario Bro
All we ever look for
Yes.
This spread takes both special hits and physical hits slightly better than your set:
Jolly
232 HP/56 Def/76 SpD/144 Spe
Sure, that spread looks good. If anybody can find an even more efficient spread, then that'd be cool, if not, 232 HP / 56 Def / 76 SpD / 144 Spe should be the spread for the Utility set.
Super Mario Bro
All we ever look for
Sure, but then you are losing out on a Leftovers number.
I'll throw 232 HP / 56 Def / 76 SpD / 144 Spe as the main set on Utility with the 168 HP / 88 Def / 252 Spe as AC. CB Bat is staying as Max Speed, the argument shouldn't really happen. Think about what you're using CB Bat. I agree you shouldn't be using Crobat to take out Base 130's, but the chance to do so is always nice in a pinch. Plus max speed crobat has other uses.
As for NP having enough speed to outspee and 2HKO ScarfTar with unboosted HP Fight is enough I guess, especially if you hit it once as it switches in to avoid being Stone Edged.
I'll update these and wait for anyone else to say anything.
As for NP having enough speed to outspee and 2HKO ScarfTar with unboosted HP Fight is enough I guess, especially if you hit it once as it switches in to avoid being Stone Edged.
I'll update these and wait for anyone else to say anything.
When I tested NP Crobat (and I retested it a few days ago) I found the set to be unappealing for mainly the following reasons:
a) Crobat's SpA is too low, and even after a Nasty Plot it's not that strong and continues missing a lot of KOs and 2HKOs on several Pokemon.
b) The lack of Roost is pretty serious. With Life Orb, SR, and the fact that sometimes you'll only be able to set up Nasty Plot at the same time Crobat's taking an attack (for instance: Celebi's HP Fire / Grass Knot; a Choiced Pokemon locked into a non-effective attack; or some other random stuff) reduce Crobat's HP considerably fast, to the point that in occasions you'll be better off attacking rather than using Nasty Plot to boost your mediocre Special Attack. Evidently, one can choose to use Roost instead of Hidden Power, but that reduces coverage a lot IMO.
c) The combination of Sludge Bomb / Heat Wave / HP Fighting is very decent, I must admit, but there are still a large number of Pokemon who have no problems switching in on said moves repertoire. Swampert, Vaporeon, Suicune, Gyarados, Tentacruel (bulky Water-types overall) are a major inconvenience for Crobat, while Heatran can take a hit (or various if it's bulky) and eliminate the bird as well -- Heatran's problem can be remedied by using HP Ground instead, though this would make Tyranitar be a nightmare). Hippowdon, the aforementioned Tyranitar, Flygon, Snorlax, Blissey are some others to add to the list of potential counters.
In general, too weak, inefficient. I even used the set in tandem with Spikes to see how good the extra damage could be, but that really didn't solve any problem. I don't approve the set, though if any other QCer would like to go out and try it out as well, feel free to do so, that'd be excellent.
a) Crobat's SpA is too low, and even after a Nasty Plot it's not that strong and continues missing a lot of KOs and 2HKOs on several Pokemon.
b) The lack of Roost is pretty serious. With Life Orb, SR, and the fact that sometimes you'll only be able to set up Nasty Plot at the same time Crobat's taking an attack (for instance: Celebi's HP Fire / Grass Knot; a Choiced Pokemon locked into a non-effective attack; or some other random stuff) reduce Crobat's HP considerably fast, to the point that in occasions you'll be better off attacking rather than using Nasty Plot to boost your mediocre Special Attack. Evidently, one can choose to use Roost instead of Hidden Power, but that reduces coverage a lot IMO.
c) The combination of Sludge Bomb / Heat Wave / HP Fighting is very decent, I must admit, but there are still a large number of Pokemon who have no problems switching in on said moves repertoire. Swampert, Vaporeon, Suicune, Gyarados, Tentacruel (bulky Water-types overall) are a major inconvenience for Crobat, while Heatran can take a hit (or various if it's bulky) and eliminate the bird as well -- Heatran's problem can be remedied by using HP Ground instead, though this would make Tyranitar be a nightmare). Hippowdon, the aforementioned Tyranitar, Flygon, Snorlax, Blissey are some others to add to the list of potential counters.
In general, too weak, inefficient. I even used the set in tandem with Spikes to see how good the extra damage could be, but that really didn't solve any problem. I don't approve the set, though if any other QCer would like to go out and try it out as well, feel free to do so, that'd be excellent.
I'm backing Max Spe for CB Crobat. It actually has the power to hit the things it outspeeds/ties with hard enough for the speed to matter, and the bulk is kinda meh anyway considering that the biggest danger to CB Crobat is CB Crobat itself.
I actually used NP Crobat in my early days on competitive battling. While it does work, I don't think its on par with our standards. Setsuna summed it up pretty well. Everything else looks fine and i will approve this upon the removal of NP. If anyone disagrees, feel free to post logs.
I'm going to bump this to bring it back to the foreground. Crobat is one of the last of the BL/OU Pokemon that needs an update, so I'd like to see this get some more comments.
My thoughts are that Choice Band should be the first set because it's the most powerful, easiest to fit into a team, and the one you need to prepare for the most. Then I'd like to see the Stallbreaker after that and Nasty Plot after that if it passes QC. NP Crobat is pretty meh in pure OU, all things considered, as it really doesn't hit hard enough even after the boost. I agree with it being rejected. Both other sets look good, though, except for one thing.
I don't get why you wouldn't run max HP on the Stallbreaker. You hit 374 HP, which still rounds down SR damage, and it optimizes your defenses. The spread should be: 252 HP / 56 Def / 56 Def / 144 Spe if you want the best balanced defenses while still outspeeding Choice Scarf Tyranitar to U-turn out. If you want to focus in one defensive stat, just dump the remainder there. (That should be mentioned in AC for the set)
My thoughts are that Choice Band should be the first set because it's the most powerful, easiest to fit into a team, and the one you need to prepare for the most. Then I'd like to see the Stallbreaker after that and Nasty Plot after that if it passes QC. NP Crobat is pretty meh in pure OU, all things considered, as it really doesn't hit hard enough even after the boost. I agree with it being rejected. Both other sets look good, though, except for one thing.
I don't get why you wouldn't run max HP on the Stallbreaker. You hit 374 HP, which still rounds down SR damage, and it optimizes your defenses. The spread should be: 252 HP / 56 Def / 56 Def / 144 Spe if you want the best balanced defenses while still outspeeding Choice Scarf Tyranitar to U-turn out. If you want to focus in one defensive stat, just dump the remainder there. (That should be mentioned in AC for the set)
I approve of CB and the Stall Breaker set, but not NP. Where you at Zystral ?_?