Daily Puzzle

[bubbly]

Hi everyone :)

This 'daily puzzle' is something I'll (hopefully) be posting most days if I have an opportunity (and if it's in the right forum =P). The idea is like this. The puzzle focuses on a hypothetical situation in a match, and I'm going to ask you to either solve it, or to work out what each side needs to do to win and come up with a plan. Hopefully, this can help out people (like myself) who need to be able to calculate better and more accurately, as well as understanding what you need to do to win in such and such a position. Chess puzzles work in a similar way.

The puzzles are all going to be for 4th gen OU for a while, just because most of us know it better and it is fairly stable. I'm going holidaying in a couple of days, so I wanted to post this here now to see if people like the idea. Normally I'll try and do 1 easy puzzle and 1 hard puzzle, but there's only going to be 1 for today :)

Puzzle 1
This puzzle is a 'come up with a plan' kind for the 1st player. Think of it as 'what needs to happen for me to win?'.
Good luck everyone :) Btw, if this is too hard or too easy, I'll adjust the difficulty in the future. Coming up with the winning plan is the important thing.
Note that unless otherwise specified, all moves and pokemon are known to the second player.

(50%) vs. (30%)

​

Your Dragonite is an offensive Dragon Dancer with 252 Atk/Spd, and a Jolly nature, holding a Life Orb, with the moves Dragon Dance, Earthquake, Outrage and Roost. You have these team mates:

• A standard British Gliscor set (Taunt, Toxic, Roost, Earthquake)​
• 

  (80%)​
• A Dual Screens Bronzong holding Light Clay, with moves Explosion and Stealth Rock as well as both Screens, with the Levitate ability​
• 

  (94%)​

The opponents Mamoswine you know to be a Choice Band variant, with Adamant (so your Dragonite outspeeds him). Mamoswine has the moves Ice Shard, Earthquake, Stone Edge and Superpower, and is not currently Choice-locked into a move. Also on your opponents team is:

• A Magnezone holding Leftovers, with the moves Thunderbolt, Substitute, Hidden Power Ice, and Magnet Rise.​
• 

  (90%)​

Right, that's all the information you need. Using the Smogon Damage Calc might be helpful but you don't need it.​

HINT: Mamoswine's CB Ice Shard only just manages to OHKO Gliscor.

Again, good luck :) Guys, posting your solutions is okay but everyone at least have a go before you look at what other people have got.​

 

[khz]

Wow nice idea, thinking about it right now.

 

[Athenodoros]

Does the second player know our team? Does Bronzong have levitate?

 

[bubbly]

Thanks, Athenodoros, picked up some stuff I forgot to mention. In this case, the second player does know your team and everyone's moves, and Bronzong does have levitate. I'll specify in future whether any moves or pokemon are unrevealed.

 

[StardustGD]

Is this what you need to do to win, or what should happen for you to win?

In my spot, I'd shove out Gliscor, due to it's great defense, it should be able to withstand the IceShard, and hopefully Roost off the damage, and Earthquake it to death.

The reason for Gliscor is that if Magnezone is sent in with Bronzon, then he would be magnet pulled and killed off..

And Gliscor could earthquake before the magnet rise.

 

[bubbly]

CB Adamant Mamoswine Ice Shard vs Stallbreaker Gliscor = 101.7-119.8% damage

Keep trying :)

Oh BTW, tomorrow (for me thats about 16 hours) if no one has got pretty much the right answer I'll start giving out some major hints. :)

 

[ginganinja]

my rough solution after looking at if for 60 secs or so

Hide

Yeah I think you go to Bronzong first turn on an Ice Shard then set up a light screen. Set up a reflect while Magnezone magnet rises/ Subs. If Bronzong then explodes Dragonite can abuse Light screen to DD/Roost up. It gets tricky if Mamo switchs back in which is why you should Roost first before DDing to scout the switch as Ice Shard should 3KO (without LO damage though). From here you hope to lure Mamo in with Reflect still up, sac Dragonite and then Gliscor can survive the Ice Shard and KO Magnezone.

Ehh I might be missing something but its late and I cannot be fucked running in depth analysis on switchs, double switchs etc etc.

Nice Puzzle though and good fun

 

[bubbly]

Nice work ginganinja :) You got almost everything, but you left a couple of minor points. Very very well done :)


I'm watching you, people. Don't look at ginga's solution until you've had a go yourselves.

 

[Chinese Dood]

EDIT: Sorry I'll hide it.

Hide

I think we have to assume that the opponent has perfect knowledge of the first player and will always choose the best move (otherwise it's all a guessing game)?

In that case, player must either choose to lose either Dragonite or Gliscor to Ice shard or take a Superpower with Bronzong.

Bronzong is 3HKO'd by Superpower, so it'd make perfect sense to do this:

Turn 1. Switch in Bronzong. Superpower.
Turn 2A. Superpower. Reflect.
Turn 3A. Superpower (won't KO because of Reflect). Explosion.
Turn 4A. Just Earthquake with Dragonite or Gliscor.

Path A isn't the way to go for opponent, so:

Turn 2B. Switch to Magnezone, Switch to Bronzong.
Turn 3B. Thunderbolt (>50% damage), Reflect.
Turn 4B. Thunderbolt KO.
Turn 5B & 6B. Gliscor EQ KO Magnezone and Mamoswine (Ice shard won't KO with reflect).

What if opponent sees all that, and instead decides to switch right on first turn and magnet rise on 3rd instead of going for the KO?
Turn 1C. Switched to Magnezone. Switched to Bronzong.
Turn 2C. Thunderbolt. Reflect.
Turn 3C. Magnet Rise (knowing Gliscor and Dragonite have EQ). Explosion (61% min).
Turn 4C. Dragonite Outrage (40% min, so will KO Magnezone).
Turn 5C. Ice Shard KOs Dragonite.
Turn 6C. Gliscor survives reflected Ice Shard and KOs Mamoswine.

Player gets a much smaller win but win nonetheless. If on Turn 3C, Magnezone used Sub instead, then basically same scenario as C, but switch in Gliscor instead of Dragonite after explosion and don't even need to lose Dragonite.

So, player's strategy is:
Turn 1: Switch to Bronzong.
Turn 2: Reflect.
Turn 3: Explosion.
Turn 4+: If Magnezone used Magnet Rise, then bring Dragonite out to outrage, revenge kill Mamoswine with Gliscor. Otherwise, just bring Gliscor out to finish.

Not sure if I covered all scenarios... well, that's my shot at this.

EDIT: edited scenario B since I forgot a turn.
EDIT2: woops, actually now scenario B has given an extra turn for opponent, lol but whatever, not going to change it... pretty much just switch to bronzong, reflect, explosion, and then gliscor to KO if no magnet rise, and Dragonite to KO zone and Gliscor to KO Mamoswine otherwise.

 

[Shining Kestral]

What a fun little exercise! Here is my solution:

Player 1 should switch to Bronzong. None of Mamoswine's attacks can 2HKO Bronzong with 94% of its health barring a critical hit. Player 2 will have either attacked with Mamoswine or switched to Magnezone anticipating Bronzong coming in.

In either of these scenarios, Player 1 should now use Reflect with Bronzong. It doesn't matter whether Magnezone was switched in or not the previous turn: Magnezone's Thunderbolt can't 2HKO a Dual Screen Bronzong with 94% health.

Now, Player 1's next move should be to use Stealth Rock. No matter what Player 2 did or does on this turn, Bronzong is still alive.

If Bronzong has been attacked by Magnezone at all, it should Explode here. If not, set up Light Screen, then Explode.

Player 1's next move should depend on this one factor:

Did Magnezone use Magnet Rise at any time, y/n?

y -> send in Dragonite
n -> send in Gliscor

If Player 1 sent in Gliscor, he has won: attack with Earthquake. Gliscor outspeeds Magnezone and OHKOs. If Mamoswine was switched out at any point in the battle, it comes in, takes in Stealth Rock damage, and fails to OHKO with Ice Shard due to Reflect while Gliscor, with SR's help, KOs Mamoswine back.

If Dragonite is sent in (meaning Magnezone used Magnet Rise) it's a little tougher: if Light Screen is up, Dragonite should use Roost once then attack with Outrage. Dragonite will 2HKO Magnezone, then is revenged by Mamoswine's Ice Shard. Gliscor enters, survives Ice Shard due to Reflect, and is able to KO with EQ due to residual damage from Stealth Rock. If Light Screen is not up, Dragonite attacks with Outrage, is KO'd, and Gliscor attempts to stall out Magnet Rise with Roost, which I THINK is possible, then attacks with EQ. Mamoswine meets the same fate as any other scenario, as Reflect should still be active. (unless I counted wrong) If not, oh well, close match.

I think this should work out.

I shouldn't try to think about these things at this time of night.

 

[TEA_DEMON]

Go to Bronzong straight away. If it Ice Shards, go to Gliscor as they'll almost certainly go to Magnezone. You Earthquake for the KO, then you can go to Bronzong if they don't switch out Magnezone and explode on Mamo for the win.

 

[bubbly]

Excellent work everyone, I can see I need to make a really really difficult one for next time :)

ShiningKestral and Chinese Dood, you guys got the perfect, risk free response, so well done :)

Tea Demon, yours is a sneaky way which doesn't give you the win (barring hax) guaranteed, but like you say 95 times out of 100 the other guys going to switch to Magnezone.

One last thing, which isn't particularly relevant in this exercise because its not a "which one gives me the best chance of winning" thing, but looking at it from the second players point of view is useful too. In practise, very few people will not Ice Shard on the first turn, because they can see the guaranteed loss in two moves if Dragonite stays in.

 

[Dummy007]

I was going to post something. Then I realized that everyone else had already answered the question better.

 

[Sy123]

Now I will make my assumptions based on the player's skill level.
Also I have not looked at anyone else's solution, so forgive me if it similar to someone elses

Low Skill Level i.e Close Noob

Hide

Switch Dragonite with Bronzong, to take the predictable Ice Shard
Then switch Bronzong to Gliscor as they switch in Magnezone.
EQ should destroy one thing or another, if it kills Mamo, then great. You have won, if it kills Magnezone, simply switch in Bronzong to wall, if it tries to Superpower/Ice Shard, Dragonite or Bronzong will pick it off

Medium Skill Level i.e Average player

Hide

If your opponent is a bit better, then he would probably choose his move based on your team. This is where predicting your opponents predictions, and avoiding an over-prediction=The beauty of pokemon :)
Your opponent could switch in Magnezone, on the predicted Bronzong switch, therefore a switch to Gliscor should be implied, this is because it can Superpower as well, which Gliscor can resist. Because Gliscor resists it can take the match on from there. If it switches to Magnezone, you can EQ Magnezone. And you can switch to Zong and Explode on the Dragonite. Not fool-proof but its the best I can think of

High Skill Level i.e Earthworm or a bit lower i.e Top 25-30 on ladder

Hide

This is where mind gams come in, assuming this is Pokemon Online/Shoddy mind games can be implied I have no idea how though. Ok to the actual Pokemon stuff. Again we must not over predict but it is essential to predict the opponents prediction. Knowing your own opponent we can assume, that he/she is thinking one step ahead of you, therefore we must go one step backwards that way we can win by cancelling out the opponents prediction. i.e When doing a ladder match, you assume your opponent is good, so they wont do something stupid like leave Dragonite in. So you actually do that, its really risky however this is where sacrifice and foddering comes in to play.
Leave Dragonite in as a fodder
Switch in Bronzong, then put up a Reflect, this will help the Gliscor
They then will switch to Magnezone on the Reflect, then you can Explode.
Gliscor will kill Magnezone
Mamoswine will fail to OHKO with Ice Shard due to Reflect
Take the win with Gliscor

I apologise if this is wrong in anyway, Im not what you call a great pokemon player

And thank you for these aswesome puzzles, they really ge tthe brain thinking, considering its now the start of the school holidays over here

 

[ginganinja]

imo player 2 should NOT attack Bronzong with as there is pretty much no need. Not only that, but you risk an instant loss if your opponent predicts a thunderbolt and brings in Gliscor (provided Sub or Magnet Rise is not up) You can Sub on Bronzong (or Magnet Rise) and then Sub (if you Magnet Rised) or Magnet Rise (if you subbed).

This way you can stall out the screens with a Sub up while Bronzong can effectively do nothing to you. Bronzong has to Explode to break the Sub but then Gliscor has to stall out Magnet Rise turns while taking HP Ice and all the while the Reflect turns get neutered.

It should still be a win for P1 with smart play but I don't see the need for Magnezone to attack straight off when Magnet Rising (or Subbing) is so much better.

anyway thats how I see it @ 1AM so I might have missed something obvious

 

[Athenodoros]

I'm kind of confused about what is happening here. Either there should be a way of guaranteeing a win, or it should be a poll, like in the Smog article (I forget the date), to see who would have won a majority of the time.

 

[bubbly]

Magnezone should set up a Magnet Rise as soon as it comes in, and should only attack once its behind a Sub. BUT, Player 1 still wins, because they can Explode on the turn after Bronzong uses Reflect, switch in Dragonite, and then if Magnezone has Magnet Rise Dragonite just has to break the Sub 2 turns before Reflect wears off.

 

[doomvendingmachine]

I would be VERY interested to see more of these things. When I was kid there would be the exact same idea translated to yu-gi-oh cards in a magazine, where you would be placed in a situation and try to figure out a way to win in one turn. I never thought about how it could be applied to pokemon, but it makes perfect sense. You get a luvdisc, which I don't often give out. However, if you want this to get more views it would probably be wise to not post this in stark mountain but in uncharted territory (as long as you do some B/W puzzles it makes sense there, it doesn't have to be 100% B/W).

 

[ARandomDude]

Gliscor can run through that team with a reflect up, so:

1) switch to Bronzong
2) use Reflect
If Mamo is still in, he can't KO you after the Reflect
3) Explode. Gliscor gets a free switch-in and outspeeds and KOs Mamo and Magnezone, depending on who's still alive.

 

[Demoness]

Head to Bronzong first to take the Ice Shard. If for some reason, Mamoswine deicdes to Superpower, See how much damage it did. If it deals around 53%, then stay in to Reflect. If it did above that, switch out to Gliscor because Bronzong is still needed and can be KOed by another Superpwoer. Earthquake to kill Magnezone, then sac Gliscor to figure out what move he's going to use next. Stone Edge means Dragonite comes in and KOs and Ice Shard means Bronzong can easily Explode to kill Mamoswine.

If Mamoswine Ice Shards instead of Superpowers first, you set up a Reflect with Bronzong on the switch to Magnezone, then Explode to make sure Substitute won't ruin your plan. Now go back to Gliscor and Earthquake to kill Magnezone. Now, because of Reflect, you can survive a Ice Shard and KO with Earthquake. The other 2 moves don't need to be analysied because Earthquake is usless here and Stone Edge first turn is the same as Ice Shard first turn.

Edit: since Athenodoros said that a double switch would cause a lose, I have a new proposel: First off, have Dragonite use Earthquake to see what the opponent will do first. If it's Ice Shard, switch to Bronzong after Nite dies and set up a Light Screen as the opponent switches in Magnezone. Set up the Reflect as the Magnezone either Subs, Magnet Rises, or attacks. Now heres where it gets tricky, If Magnezone decides to Magnet Rise, Bronzong needs to stall until the last turn of Magnet Rise to Explode on Magnezone to ensure the Sub is broken and there is no Magnet Rise when Gliscor is coming in. Now, you can Earthquake to KO, and with Reflect up, Mamoswine can't KO you with Ice Shard. Of course, if the opponent switches in Magnezone immedaitley or Superpowers with Mamoswine first, you will easily win. I know theres still the double switch with Bronzong and Magnezone issue, but I really don't want to type that out right now.

 

[Athenodoros]

Why are you assuming that P2 does not switch to Magnezone immediately? In that case, switching to Bronzong is an immediate lose.

 

[bubbly]

Is it an immediate loss if the opponent switches to Magnezone? The only way Magnezone can win like that is if it uses Magnet Rise in like the last turn before Bronzong explodes. It needs to do this to outlast Reflect, assuming Bronzong uses it immediately.

Magnezone does 37.6-44.4% to Bronzong, and with a Light Screen down, halve it again.
So if player2 goes to Magnezone straight away, I'd say that, although player1 now won't win all the time, they should still win the great majority of the time. If Magnezone puts up Magnet Rise on the first or second turn, as I'd hypothesize would happen in almost all cases (since otherwise if Bronzong Explodes its game over, but even if Magnet Rise isn't used he HAS to put up Magnet Rise on the turn you Explode, meaning all the odds are in your favour), then Bronzong can easily wait out three turns, putting up Reflect on the third turn, Exploding on the 4th. Both Light Screen and Reflect are now up, meaning Dragonite can switch into Magnezone, stall for the one last turn of Magnet Rise with Roost, and then kill it and then Mamoswine under Reflect.

However, in this case the win definitely isn't guaranteed, although you can see that in most cases p1 will still win. Thanks Athenodoros :)

 

[Athenodoros]

I would say that whatever Player One does, if the first turn is that both players switch to their steels, I think that with perfect prediction P2 should win. I'll have a look and edit in what happens.

EDIT: I can't see any way P1 can win if turn one is both switching to Steels, because Magnezone uses Substitute and Magnet Rise, after which none of the other team can touch him. This means that there is no best solution, assuming a 50/50 chance of Ice Shard or Switching to Magnezone, because either way you win 50% of the time.

 

[Server_Crash]

I think that you should sate in the OP that guesses/answers should be hidden, as I accidentally read a correct guess as I was looking through the thread. And if they were wrong, they could unhide it/mark it as wrong so people could use it as a jumping point if they want.

 

[PI-Dimension]

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Switch to gliscor, win. Since its britscor, nothing can hit it.