Defog in Ubers

[Theorymon]

As some of you may know, Defog got a massive buff this generation. Instead of it just removing your hazards, it removes ALL hazards on the field , including your opponent's! This could be a HUGE change for Ubers, considering how hazards centric the past two generations have been. Now, normally, Defog has a pretty poor distribution. However, thanks to Defog not being an HM in Heart Gold and Soul Silver, you can transfer it to gen 5, and probably to gen 6 when Pokébank comes out. This leaves us with a pretty good list of users. Let's discuss just how Defog could impact Ubers!

Good Potential Defog users

Arceus
Ho-Oh
Lugia
Scizor
Skarmory
Giratina
Giratina-O​

 

[ChaosNemesis]

I don't see defog being used on Ho-oh cause switching in SR will dent it too much.
Giratina A is too good using sleep talk so no place for defog.
Giratina O support could be a potential user: defog/wow/sneak/tail and I think we will see many of those.
Scizor with the Xerneas release will be running CB most of the time, so no defog for the lil bug. Maybe with a MScizor will be used, but I don't know how much scizorite will be prefered to CB.
Lugia can be a potential defog user but without hazards his subshuffler set (standard great wall) will be useless.
Arceus can do whatever he want, so in some sets defog will be found.
Skarmory in uber? Does someone still use him? Ok. His role was sponge fisic attacks and set spike, than whirlwind. So I don't see the point of defog on this thing.

So, is Defog useful? Of course yes.
Will it be used? Yes.
Will be used in like every team? I don't think so.
Will Defog be hazard/stall (Ferrothorn) death? Of course no.

 

[Garchompi]

There is no doubt Defog will replace Rapid Spin in ubers as the hazard removal method of choice, for a number of reasons:

-Entry hazards in ubers are very easy to lay down: Deoxys-S is known as the king of Spikes stacking for a reason. And of course we have Ferrothorn who will happily take advantage of Kyogre to lay down some more.
-The premier spinners in ubers, Arceus-Ghost, Giratina-A and Giratina-O, are extremely bulky and can beat every single spinner one-on-one except the rare Cloyster.
-Speaking of spinners in ubers, they're donwright weak. We're talking about pokemon with barely 500 BST against 680-720 BST spinblockers. The likes of Forretress and Tentacruel were ultimate setup baits for a number of ubers. Excadrill was the only exception, but now that perma-sand is gone it's nowhere near as threatening.
-Magic Bounce users are all unreliable and fragile. M-Absol is the only decent one by ubers standards but it has to mega evolve first so it won't stop rocks from being deployed unless it goes for a predictable (and mediocre, since it has no Focus Sash) anti-lead set.
-Let's compare Defog users vs Rapid Spin users: there is no contest. Lugia, Scizor, Giratina, Lati@s and even Arceus himself get it. Most of them aren't exactly Taunt bait either.
-Many powerful ubers such as Kyurem-W and Ho-oh are held back from SR and they greatly appreciate their removal. In BW they were forced to run pitifully weak team mates such as Forretress which would hurt the team's offensive pressure, but now it's a different story and they can be employed to their full potential.

 

[Haruno]

Neither ho oh nor Lugia can use defog since in order to use defog they have to lose their hidden abilities

 

[MMII]

You can still use Pressure Lugiass and Ho-Oh which are fine sets if you have strong enough Defog support. I mean, look at what we used for Rapid Spinners last gen. We don't need it to be an amazing mon for it to be worth considering as a Defog user.

 

[EJ190]

Neither ho oh nor Lugia can use defog since in order to use defog they have to lose their hidden abilities

For all we know defog might have been added as level up moves for ho-oh and lugia. Its unlikely but we don't know which legends have had movepool changes until they're transfered through pokebank.

 

[His Eminence Lord Poppington II]

defog has no interaction with magic bounce right?

otherwise defog 6 focus sash please

 

[Garchompi]

The Evasion drop effect will be reflected by Magic Bounce but entry hazards will still be removed.

 

[Kejmur]

You can still use Pressure Lugiass and Ho-Oh which are fine sets if you have strong enough Defog support. I mean, look at what we used for Rapid Spinners last gen. We don't need it to be an amazing mon for it to be worth considering as a Defog user.

Especially when Pressure is good for tanking low PP moves like Sacred Fire. You switch in with Lugia, set-up Reflect, Roost for full HP and Toxic After. With Pressure it's really easy to stall out Ho-Oh Sacred Fire to 0 PP points, making it much less dangerous. Pressure is still good for both Ho-Oh (if he runs bulkier sets) or Lugia, so I wouldn't totally ditch them out as Defog users (mostly Lugia I mean here), because Pressure still has some good uses.

BTW for example when we look for Non-Uber Defog users (I think is is something worth to talk about), Physically Bulky Mandibuzz (or special) should still work as a Defog user as with STAB Foul Play and with this typing it's good check to SD Ghost Arceus (and Defog would be the only thing which gives Mandibuzz niche over Yvetal now if he won't get it after PokeBank).

Specially Defensive Empoleon is interesting idea as well. Steel/Water typing is really good defensively (which makes him good Dialga and Palkia check for example) when invested and with that huge amount of resists, he should find that free turn to use Defog easily. Also learn SR, which is neat. Sounds like a good support Pokemon for Ubers.

Gliscor may actually have another niche in Ubers except his SubToxic set, especially if Landorus-T won't learn Defog. Good physical bulk, reliable recovery, Stealth Rock and Defog. Good candidate to consider as well.

Of course there is still Scizor. STAB Technician Bullet Punch is always nice to have with Xerneas being around, has access to reliable recovery with Roost and his typing is still great for Ubers tier. Scizor comeback time is here again ? (in Gen 4 he was used alot).

Maybe Defensive Zapdos should work as well ? Interesting typing, decent bulk and also has access to reliable recovery to use Defog repeatedly.

So yep, I agree that if in previous generations many of Rapid Spinner users would never be considered in Ubers without Rapid Spin, so it should look the same in case of Non-Uber Defog users as well.

 

[Hack]

If you are using pressure Ho-oh to use defog on it, you might as well not use Ho-oh, regen is absolutely too good to pass up on. In Lugia's case, well I would consider defog on that (maybe) since Lugia is often hazard bait, and pressure might help in some scenarios. However, running reflect and defog on the same set doesn't look appealing at all, you either miss out on recover, phazing or status- all three needed for Lugia to perform.

Arceus has been really solid as a defog user so far. Arceus-Rock with Defog/Recover/Judgment/Will o Wisp can handle SD Arceus, burn random things, check Yvetlal and counter Ho-oh and of course clear hazards while Arceus-Psychic can use a similar set to combat Mewtwo formes instead of Ygod and Ho-oh. Skarmory is solid too, very hazard resilient, reliable recovery, spreads status/taunts etc. The main problem is that you often wished Skarmory could run taunt and toxic on the same set with defog, but sadly you need phazing and recover. Haven't personally tried any Giratina forme but I can see both working quite well, even though wasting two moveslots for RestTalk recover is a bit much. Giratina-O still has nice offensive presence, priority and the buffed will o wisp and you can use wish support or something to keep its health up- or just play offensively enough so that your opponent pretty much only gets one chance to get hazards up, since Giratina-O without recover will probably be able to defog at least once. Scizor is solid, it checks Xerneas pretty well too and doubles up as an additional E-killer check with toxic or superpower.

Defensive defog Zapdos can't check anything big in the metagame and Empoleon gets wrecked by Thunder Palkia and LO Aura Sphere Dialga (which is quite common on offensive SR Dialga) and it doesn't get recovery besides rest. The thing about "previous Rapid Spinners would never be considered in Ubers without Rapid Spin" is that most spinners actually did more things that just spinning. Defog users like Zapdos can't exactly provide any other team support that defog while gen5 Forretress for example, lures in Ghostceus and Giratina-O with Toxic, Spikes up on Fat-Tina, checks SD Arceus, forces out Ferrothorn etc.

To sum it up, defog is perfectly viable- for stall you get the opportunity to blow away offensive team's hazards, which is detrimental as stall teams can't take hits with multiple layers up. For sun offense, the usage of Ho-oh is suddenly easier, and Ho-oh is amazing so defog is very viable on those types of teams as well. The main catch is that defog Arceus is quite costly opportunity-wise. You can't run CM (unless maybe Steelceus) if you want defog support from your Arceus-Forme, and for Ho-oh weak Arceus Formes like Figthing and Fairy you will be hard pressed to find a moveslot for both toxic and stone edge together with defog (both toxic and stone edge are staples and very important on donkeyfightceus for example). Defog Skarmory contends with the fact that it can't use Taunt+Toxic+Recover+Phazing+Defog all at once so that will have to be taken under consideration too.

 

[Kejmur]

If you are using pressure Ho-oh to use defog on it, you might as well not use Ho-oh, regen is absolutely too good to pass up on. In Lugia's case, well I would consider defog on that (maybe) since Lugia is often hazard bait, and pressure might help in some scenarios. However, running reflect and defog on the same set doesn't look appealing at all, you either miss out on recover, phazing or status- all three needed for Lugia to perform.

Arceus has been really solid as a defog user so far. Arceus-Rock with Defog/Recover/Judgment/Will o Wisp can handle SD Arceus, burn random things, check Yvetlal and counter Ho-oh and of course clear hazards while Arceus-Psychic can use a similar set to combat Mewtwo formes instead of Ygod and Ho-oh. Skarmory is solid too, very hazard resilient, reliable recovery, spreads status/taunts etc. The main problem is that you often wished Skarmory could run taunt and toxic on the same set with defog, but sadly you need phazing and recover. Haven't personally tried any Giratina forme but I can see both working quite well, even though wasting two moveslots for RestTalk recover is a bit much. Giratina-O still has nice offensive presence, priority and the buffed will o wisp and you can use wish support or something to keep its health up- or just play offensively enough so that your opponent pretty much only gets one chance to get hazards up, since Giratina-O without recover will probably be able to defog at least once. Scizor is solid, it checks Xerneas pretty well too and doubles up as an additional E-killer check with toxic or superpower.

Defensive defog Zapdos can't check anything big in the metagame and Empoleon gets wrecked by Thunder Palkia and LO Aura Sphere Dialga (which is quite common on offensive SR Dialga) and it doesn't get recovery besides rest. The thing about "previous Rapid Spinners would never be considered in Ubers without Rapid Spin" is that most spinners actually did more things that just spinning. Defog users like Zapdos can't exactly provide any other team support that defog while gen5 Forretress for example, lures in Ghostceus and Giratina-O with Toxic, Spikes up on Fat-Tina, checks SD Arceus, forces out Ferrothorn etc.

To sum it up, defog is perfectly viable- for stall you get the opportunity to blow away offensive team's hazards, which is detrimental as stall teams can't take hits with multiple layers up. For sun offense, the usage of Ho-oh is suddenly easier, and Ho-oh is amazing so defog is very viable on those types of teams as well. The main catch is that defog Arceus is quite costly opportunity-wise. You can't run CM (unless maybe Steelceus) if you want defog support from your Arceus-Forme, and for Ho-oh weak Arceus Formes like Figthing and Fairy you will be hard pressed to find a moveslot for both toxic and stone edge together with defog (both toxic and stone edge are staples and very important on donkeyfightceus for example). Defog Skarmory contends with the fact that it can't use Taunt+Toxic+Recover+Phazing+Defog all at once so that will have to be taken under consideration too.

At first point I only said that Ho-Oh is still viable with Pressure, not Defog and my Pressure argument was mostly based on Lugia by saying 'I mostly mean Lugia here'. Using Defog Pokemon with x4 weakness is not the best idea (we all know it). Although if there is any x4 weak Pokemon which can perform this role (although I still would NOT recommend) it's Ho Oh, as with some investment for example it can easily take on something like +2 Dark Pulse from Darkrai, which is impressive feat. Still bad idea, but doable. Because Ho-Oh bulk on special side is ridiculous.

Yeah, 4MMS syndrome is a problem for Lugia when running Defog, but you have other teammates when you need phazing and stuff. Doable ? With Lugias bulk sure as hell it is. Really viable ? Questionable, as Multiscale is great ability to use, but this is viable option if needed. But if you have trouble with finding Pokemon with Defog, Lugia can perform this duty well.

In case of Empoleon I said word CHECK (especially when Pokemon like Palkia has no counters), as he can easily switch into dragon and water attacks coming from Palkia. If you see damage is lower than expected (it's easy to tell if for example Palkia is running Specs or it's more standard set). If you see that damage is lower, don't risk and switch to electric resist (of course prediction goes both ways, but as defensive pivot Empoleon can sure work). It's similar in case of Dialga - he can handle every hit except Aura Sphere (so if you switch in for example on Dragon Pulse and see Life Orb, switch to something that resist Fighting). And I said check, not counter. I know that they carry moves which can hit Empoleon for SE damage. And yeah, I agree that his lack of recovery is a problem, so Wish support would be really recommended. But you can't deny that Empoleon has some great resistances to use and enough bulk to pull this off. With investment it's pretty bulky as well. It IMO has some potential. And if you run Roar - nothing can set-up in your face. Stealth Rock/Scald/Roar/Defog sounds like a solid set. Or you may replace Stealth Rock with Toxic or Ice Beam for Outrage locked Dragons. Steel types are always nice in a tier where dragon attacks are everywhere and additional water typing gives some other nice resistances (like for Water, so for example you can check something like Calm Mind/Surf/Rest/Sleep Talk Kyogre set as well or).

About Zapdos - I just looked for another Defog example, but yeah, this one wasn't the best one.

Mandibuzz has really good typing and IMO if it weren't for Yvetal he would have more solid niche. But if Yvetal won't get Defog - this one little move may give it a small niche to use. Dark/Flying is interesting defensively typing and STAB Foul Play is what this guy needs for damage (and Toxic)

Well Skarmory is another obvious user, although it's another 4MMS syndrome (although honestly in case of Skarmory you can live with dropping Whirlwind or Taunt). Defog/Roost/Toxic/Whirlwind sounds reasonable, even it this set is 100% Taunt bait (and it's not that common honestly, so problem is not as big as you may expect).

 

[Judicator]

I personally use Latias and I'm very surprised it hasn't been mentioned here yet (edit: yes it has, I was just skimreading before). It's got reliable recovery, Levitate (meaning no SR weakness), a nice speed tier and Soul Dew, which grants it huge special bulk and enough firepower to deal with hazard setters and Taunt users. Part of its success may be due to people not expecting Defog on it, but the metagame is still in its early stages and this is bound to change somewhat. It sort of suffers from 4MSS, especially now that Dragon moves are no longer immunity-free, but that's only if you're wanting Latias to be able to do everything at once. Overall, I've had great success with it. Got to be the best Defogger I can think of.

Here's my set, if anyone cares. Of course, EVs can be tweaked.

Latias (F) @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 64 SAtk / 96 SDef / 96 Spd (max HP, enough Speed to beat neutral base 90s, enough SDef to get the bonus point and the rest in SAtk)
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dragon Pulse
- Grass Knot
- Defog
- Recover

 

[Hack]

It would be by far the best defoger, but soul dew is unavailible i think.

 

[Garchompi]

Unfortunately that Latias set would be complete Xerneas bait, which is kind of a big deal in ubers right now. I'd drop Grass Knot for Toxic or Roar.

 

[Judicator]

Unfortunately that Latias set would be complete Xerneas bait, which is kind of a big deal in ubers right now. I'd drop Grass Knot for Toxic or Roar.

But then it's <mon that gets beaten by grass knot> bait. My particular team has plenty of ways of dealing with Xerneas, but not much to beat Kyogre/Groudon outside of Latias. The coverage move (if you even want to use one) can be whatever you want it to be, I just like Grass Knot.

Also, yes, Soul Dew is unavailable, probably even when PokéBank opens up. feelsbadman.jpg

 

[MMII]

Unless your team would rather prevent Xerneas from setting up as opposed to running some check to it, being Xerneas bait isn't a problem in the slightest. It can only set up once in a game so you only have to worry about checking it once. After that, your Pokemon isn't Xerneas bait anymore.

In any case, it's hard to build a Defog Lati@s set when Soul Dew hasn't been released. Who knows what the metagame will be like by the time we see Soul Dew again, if we ever do.

 

[Garchompi]

Considering how specialized Xerneas' checks are, yes, giving it chances of setting up is indeed a big deal. And the "only once per game" excuse is getting old considering it can easily sweep half a team or more even early in the match.

 

[Donkey]

Considering how specialized Xerneas' checks are, yes, giving it chances of setting up is indeed a big deal. And the "only once per game" excuse is getting old considering it can easily sweep half a team or more even early in the match.

If Xerneas is sweeping half a team or more early in a match, the team that is being swept is not a good team. Swords Dance Arceus Normal can 6-0 "ubers" teams with Charizard and Ninetails. I don't understand why you are saying it's an excuse that it can only set up once per game, since that is a true statement. There are plenty of ways to deal with Xerneas --> read the Xerneas thread.

 

[Skyblade12]

But then it's <mon that gets beaten by grass knot> bait. My particular team has plenty of ways of dealing with Xerneas, but not much to beat Kyogre/Groudon outside of Latias. The coverage move (if you even want to use one) can be whatever you want it to be, I just like Grass Knot.

Also, yes, Soul Dew is unavailable, probably even when PokéBank opens up. feelsbadman.jpg

There have been leaked versions of Mega Lati@s though. If GameFreak is planning on doing anything with the eon twins, I think it's a safe bet that Soul Dew will be available somewhere. I've already seen NPCs which appear to be dedicated to handing out Genesect's Drives or the Insight Glass for the Genies, so there could well be something similar for the psydrakes.

 

[ChibiChan]

There have been leaked versions of Mega Lati@s though. If GameFreak is planning on doing anything with the eon twins, I think it's a safe bet that Soul Dew will be available somewhere. I've already seen NPCs which appear to be dedicated to handing out Genesect's Drives or the Insight Glass for the Genies, so there could well be something similar for the psydrakes.

I'd say having both Mega Stone and Soul Dew would be pretty redundant since you can only choose one... And unless Mega Lati@s have like 250 base SpA Soul Dew would pretty much always be better..

I think that great item of old is now gone forever.

 

[Manaphy]

I'd say having both Mega Stone and Soul Dew would be pretty redundant since you can only choose one... And unless Mega Lati@s have like 250 base SpA Soul Dew would pretty much always be better..

I think that great item of old is now gone forever.

It makes no sense to replace it when they could just give Soul Dew the option of Mega Evolving both (which is what I suspect it'll do) A little off-topic but thought it was important.

 

[syzygian]

Logically I think Defog will make hazards a lot rarer than people think. The reason being simply that because it removes yours and your opponent's, many people using it will probably not bother setting them up at all, and then just as many of their opponents will approach things from that same mentality. I can't help but feel like the battle to keep hazards up is just not as important as the battle to... win... and that its grasping at straws. I mean both you and your opponent are going to waste anywhere from 1-3 turns each doing this shit depending on the hazard(s), and then probably several more switching to taunt users, etc. trying to taunt, and then it takes only a single move from either one of you to undo all that. just seems like a lot of work for nothing.

 

[Shiruba]

Logically I think Defog will make hazards a lot rarer than people think. The reason being simply that because it removes yours and your opponent's, many people using it will probably not bother setting them up at all, and then just as many of their opponents will approach things from that same mentality. I can't help but feel like the battle to keep hazards up is just not as important as the battle to... win... and that its grasping at straws. I mean both you and your opponent are going to waste anywhere from 1-3 turns each doing this shit depending on the hazard(s), and then probably several more switching to taunt users, etc. trying to taunt, and then it takes only a single move from either one of you to undo all that. just seems like a lot of work for nothing.

The question is, is it worth it to run? True, it gets rid of hazards on your side and isn't blocked by a ghost, but it is blocked by Taunt and, more importantly, means that you can't use hazards, especially SR. Hazards are great for any team; offensive likes it to get otherwise unobtainable OHKOs and 2HKOs, and defensive teams like it for slowly whittling the health of the opponent down - more balanced teams like both of these. It's also not guaranteed that the opponent would still have a ghost or even have a ghost to begin with along with your spinner [though, since ghosties got a buff, this is less likely, but still certainly possible]

Personally, I definitely see its usage, but I don't get how everyone is gay for Defog right now. Yes, it gets rid of hazards. Yes, ghosts don't block it. No, you can't use the hazards for your own gain, and rocks in particular are so good, their banning was brought into the discussion last gen, and pretty much any team without it was considered sub-optimal. That says a lot. Do you really want to go without such a good asset, which helps your team no matter which archetype it is [except maybe Baton Pass], just to prevent your opponent from doing the same, when another method can work just as well, while not spinning away your stuff? Something to consider.

 

[syzygian]

Personally, I definitely see its usage, but I don't get how everyone is gay for Defog right now. Yes, it gets rid of hazards. Yes, ghosts don't block it. No, you can't use the hazards for your own gain, and rocks in particular are so good, their banning was brought into the discussion last gen, and pretty much any team without it was considered sub-optimal. That says a lot. Do you really want to go without such a good asset, which helps your team no matter which archetype it is [except maybe Baton Pass], just to prevent your opponent from doing the same, when another method can work just as well, while not spinning away your stuff? Something to consider.

Of course its good, I'm just saying if people step back and take a long hard look at the amount of effort being put forth in team building to get around SR/spikes etc. whilst getting around your opponent getting around SR/spikes/yadda yadda, with Defog doing what it does now, I think people will realize its hazards that they are "gay for". :P

People could free up the moveslots devoted to rapid spin, hazards, taunt (if hazard prevention is the only thing they're running taunt for), teamslots devoted to the spinners themselves, spin blockers, and hazard layers, and perhaps MB users, for other more directly-conducive-to-winning type things instead of widdling things down over umpteen turns and raping the viability of anything weak to Rock that isn't Ho-oh.

But I just hate stall so perhaps my opinion is invalid :P I do think a lot of people are weary of rocks, etc. and are just ready for a change in direction which is why Defog is being embraced by many. Its obnoxious trying to keep hazards up as much as it is trying to avoid them, Defog just removes that extra hoop you have to jump through, imho.

 

[A Fhaol Bhig]

Do you really want to go without such a good asset, which helps your team no matter which archetype it is [except maybe Baton Pass], just to prevent your opponent from doing the same, when another method can work just as well, while not spinning away your stuff? Something to consider.

Kill the opponents setter, defog his hazards, set up your own after you defog. I don't understand your point. If you have a defogger just don't use it until his/her hazard setter is gone...