Milotic (Analysis)

[Angelo10]

Try this on for size, in the Recover+3 set or in the intro.

"While this generation introduced or improved many other bulky waters, Milotic retains a unique advantage in Marvel Scale. After absorbing a status affliction, Milotic has better physical defenses than Skarmory."

Claiming that it's the only pure water with instant recovery is misleading; Marvel Scale is what really matters, and there are at least six other OU-viable bulky waters who will be running instant or near-instant recovery.



I've been fooling around with Milo on /tr/ (yeah, I know), and I've found two sets that work decently well.

Surf
Ice Beam
Recover
Hypnosis / Dragon Tail / Toxic

I've tried this with both the max def and the 64 HP / 192 SpA spreads. It does a good job of pivoting on scarfers and non-boosting tanks, and if I can switch it in on paralysis it 's Skarmory lite.

I've experimented with Hypnosis, and the only advantage seems to be its unpredictability. When people have remembered that Milotic gets Hypnosis, I've consistently found people trying to predict the sleep. Having the extra SpA to punish them for doing so has been handy.

I've used this:

Boil Over
Ice Beam
Recover
Dragon Tail

Having too many different statuses is self-defeating. I found that Boil Over burns ended up colliding with poison/sleep too often to make status in the fourth slot useful. This set didn't seem to accomplish as much as the first set, and I questioned why I was using this over Snorlax, Garchomp, Skarmory, or Swampert. It still did a decent job of playing the role of phaze tank, though.

i tried the second set and it worked really well!!!!
she can takes hits like a pro with her 347hp and 282/286 defenses and the so commun status moves from hard hitters as scizor,tyranitar,metagross,salamence,dragonite(phaze the DD version).... and deal some damage too with 284 spatk (she survived heat wave on the switch and thunder from zapdos and OHKO back with ice beam after SR damage!!!!!)
But i see that the perfect stalling set for her is the sleeping beauty with no question.

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

I suspect that "unique niche" will be even less important in Gen5 than in Gen4, where Milotic was UU.



Milotic has the same SpA as Starmie. I don't think a set with more investment in offense is out of place; I'm just not sure what the best tradeoff would be.



And I've gotten or given away plenty of free switch-ins to a predicted Toxic/Hypnosis from either. Giving away free turns is never a good play. I wouldn't say Toxic is essential at all on the Recover set, especially when running Boil Over, for just that reason.

Tiers reflect usage not power. Milotic wouldn't have the possibility of an analysis right now if it hadn't been deemed useful last gen... and it actually gained options this gen.

The Special Attack is something I've noted all along, but the problem is, a set with offensive investment is very out of place when you consider Milotic has base 81 Speed and no way to boost this speed. With even more potent offensive threats, I don't think there really is a fair trade=off. 236 is still a decent number--let's Ice Beam OHKO Salamence without any investment.

Predicting Hypnosis is even less effective this gen because unless your opponent has a Cleric or a Sleep Talker, any switch-in is going to be sleeping for a very long time on average. One may not be able to control when Boil Over burns, but they may certainly control when it is used. Double Status has always and will always be a viable strategy.

I mean, what stops someone from setting up on more than Sleep or bad poisoning?

So does anyone have opinions on Magic Coat or Mirror Coat?

 

[IcyMan28]

^Not necessarily. Milotic is quite capable of using a bulky LO set effectively.

Milotic@Life Orb
Modest; 112 HP / 64 Def / 136 SpA / 196 Spe

Recover
Ice Beam
Surf / Hydro Pump
HP Electric / HP Fire

I believe that's the spread I used last gen. Basically, Gyarados will require Bounce, LO, and a DD boost to OHKO this Milotic, a combination which is never seen, turning this into a feasible check to the opposing serpent. Unlike Starmie, who's aim is to get in and clean up a weakened team, Milotic is switching into a hit and either firing off a powerful Hydro Pump / Ice Beam or using Recover to restore itself back to pristine condition. HP Fire is an option for Nattorei, but that's really it as Hydro Pump hits other threats that would be hit by the move hard enough already.

Milotic also has a good deal of special bulk, as Heatran needs a Life Orb, Stealth Rock, and 2 consecutive rolls of max damage to 2HKO with Fire Blast + HP Grass. This is in stark contrast to Starmie who takes considerable damage on its uninvested defenses, and Milotic is not Pursuit weak like Latias. It is also fast enough to outrun max speed base 70s (neutral nature) and lands a solid hit on the 245 speed crew before going down. If it's up to standards, I'd include it as the last set. Otherwise, mentioning it in AC is probably sufficient.

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

^Not necessarily. Milotic is quite capable of using a bulky LO set effectively.

Milotic@Life Orb
Modest; 112 HP / 64 Def / 136 SpA / 196 Spe

Recover
Ice Beam
Surf / Hydro Pump
HP Electric / HP Fire

I believe that's the spread I used last gen. Basically, Gyarados will require Bounce, LO, and a DD boost to OHKO this Milotic, a combination which is never seen, turning this into a feasible check to the opposing serpent. Unlike Starmie, who's aim is to get in and clean up a weakened team, Milotic is switching into a hit and either firing off a powerful Hydro Pump / Ice Beam or using Recover to restore itself back to pristine condition. HP Fire is an option for Nattorei, but that's really it as Hydro Pump hits other threats that would be hit by the move hard enough already.

Milotic also has a good deal of special bulk, as Heatran needs a Life Orb, Stealth Rock, and 2 consecutive rolls of max damage to 2HKO with Fire Blast + HP Grass. This is in stark contrast to Starmie who takes considerable damage on its uninvested defenses, and Milotic is not Pursuit weak like Latias. It is also fast enough to outrun max speed base 70s (neutral nature) and lands a solid hit on the 245 speed crew before going down. If it's up to standards, I'd include it as the last set. Otherwise, mentioning it in AC is probably sufficient.

I wasn't bashing the LO set. I was just saying that the defensive sets don't have the flexibility to sacrifice exorbitant amounts of HP evs for offenses. I've tried that set (courtesy of RaikouLover) to great success in OU, but of course, it would need tweaking for 5th generation! There really isn't much room for in-between!

 

[Banryu]

So does anyone have opinions on Magic Coat or Mirror Coat?

I dunno how much utility Magic Coat is gonna have... Most Grassers won't bother Leech Seeding or Sleep Powdering it, since they can just nail it with SE STAB. Granted, it could be useful against other Bulky Waters that rely on Toxic, as well as non-Grass sleepers, but for the most part, I consider it a relatively gimmicky option. Mirror Coat, slightly less so, but mostly the same. It can be, however, extremely useful and surprising under the right circumstances with the right investment. Last Gen, I used a Milotic with a spread of 158 HP / 252 SAtk / 100 SDef, and it worked really well for the most part, although it tended to be more effective against unSTABed SE moves than STABed. With a better spread than mine (admittantly, mine sucks), it could be pretty useful. Depending on how much it takes with investment, it could make a great check for Special sweepers like Urugamosu, non-CM Shandera, etc. I might be a little biased, but I think Mirror Coat is pretty good. Magic Coat might be better than I'm giving it credit for, too. But ultimately, I doubt that they'll be worth making their own sets for.

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

Haha, if Milotic had entry hazards, a set with Magic Coat and Dragon Tail might have been worth it. I definitely think Mirror Coat has a lot more merit this generation with more 5special attackers and boiling water. I actually propose max HP and max Special Defense on said special wall because it will be able to survive and reflect the strongest special attacks rather than hope to survive for a KO.

Expect a complete OU Bulky Water, Rest-talk shuffler, and LO Tank (if Daikenki can do it...) by the weekend :)

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

I'm going to try a skeleton!

 

[Chillarmy]

I've been using Milotic for a couple a weeks in standard and think that the bulky water set should look like this:

name: Bulky Water
move 1: Boil Over / Surf
move 2: Haze
move 3: Recover
move 4: Ice Beam / Toxic
nature: Bold
item: Leftovers
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

Haze is an invaluable move in this metagame, especially without Eccentric Ditto, because Roob, Gyarados, Dragonite, and Rankurusu would otherwise shit all over Milotic. In all honesty, there isn't much of a need for Toxic since most stall teams are more than capable of handling Burungeru that carry Taunt (Leech Seed users, ScarfTar, Toxic Spikes + Dragon Tail, etc) and BO teams usually have no problem setting up on it. Keeping stuff like DDChesto Kingdra and Urgamorsu in check much more reliably is more important than catching a few bulky waters off guard IMO (plus, it messes with Boil Over's burn rate D=)

Expect a complete... LO Tank (if Daikenki can do it...) by the weekend :)

Milotic has a pretty bad special movepool, gets walled six feet under and back by a wide range of pokes, and can't really take that many hits without heavy defensive investment - in standard, LO Milotic is pretty bad. Daikenki gets away with an LO set because of its larger special movepool, priority, and ability to go mixed (it has an option against Burungeru, too).

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

I've been using Milotic for a couple a weeks in standard and think that the bulky water set should look like this:

name: Bulky Water
move 1: Boil Over / Surf
move 2: Haze
move 3: Recover
move 4: Ice Beam / Toxic
nature: Bold
item: Leftovers
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

Haze is an invaluable move in this metagame, especially without Eccentric Ditto, because Roob, Gyarados, Dragonite, and Rankurusu would otherwise shit all over Milotic. In all honesty, there isn't much of a need for Toxic since most stall teams are more than capable of handling Burungeru that carry Taunt (Leech Seed users, ScarfTar, Toxic Spikes + Dragon Tail, etc) and BO teams usually have no problem setting up on it. Keeping stuff like DDChesto Kingdra and Urgamorsu in check much more reliably is more important than catching a few bulky waters off guard IMO (plus, it messes with Boil Over's burn rate D=)

Milotic has a pretty bad special movepool, gets walled six feet under and back by a wide range of pokes, and can't really take that many hits without heavy defensive investment - in standard, LO Milotic is pretty bad. Daikenki gets away with an LO set because of its larger special movepool, priority, and ability to go mixed (it has an option against Burungeru, too).

Okay, scratch the LO set. Skeleton for first Bulky Water set--finished! Will get to Rest-Talk later!

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

Hey guys, I finished the Skeleton. Can I get a QC check?

 

[locopoke]

looks good, approved 1/2

 

[Iconic]

INDEED

QC Approved 2/2

 

[Banryu]

I was wondering, has it been confirmed that Milotic recieves Marvel Scale bonus for being asleep? I was under the impression that Marvel Scale only worked for burn, paralysis, and poison. Has something changed or was I mistaken?

Edit: Coolio. :3

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

I was wondering, has it been confirmed that Milotic recieves Marvel Scale bonus for being asleep? I was under the impression that Marvel Scale only worked for burn, paralysis, and poison. Has something changed or was I mistaken?

It's gotten the boost since 3rd gen!

 

[religiousjedi]

Ah Milotic...my favorite Water type...thanks for the sets last generation! I especially liked Choice Specs and Bulky LO sets, due to their surprise factor, so hopefully you can find some viability for them in this generation!

 

[Togefan]

The first time I ever tried a rest+talk set I got extremely pissed. You know how there are certain moves sleep talk wont pick right? Unfortunatley rest is NOT one of those moves. Everytime I used sleep talk Milotic kept picking rest. I know that was just bad luck but still I don't like the fact that I have no control over what move sleep talk picks. However I know for a fact you can increase the chances of sleep talk picking a move you want it to pick. Sleep Talk never picks moves that need to charge first before they attack (moves like dig, solar beam, ect.) but that would just be wasting a move slot just so you could hopefully pick the attack you want it to there is still the chance that sleep talk will pick rest or another move. but still at least you have a chance of attacking instead of doing nothing for two turns. Anyway I'm pretty certain you know this I just thought I would throw that out there for anyone new to Pkmn. Also would a set with Leftovers+Aqua Ring+Rest+Sleep Talk+Boiling Water/Surf be acceptable? I havent done any research on this but it does seem like it would be annoying to take down.

 

[Angelo10]

The first time I ever tried a rest+talk set I got extremely pissed. You know how there are certain moves sleep talk wont pick right? Unfortunatley rest is NOT one of those moves. Everytime I used sleep talk Milotic kept picking rest. I know that was just bad luck but still I don't like the fact that I have no control over what move sleep talk picks. However I know for a fact you can increase the chances of sleep talk picking a move you want it to pick. Sleep Talk never picks moves that need to charge first before they attack (moves like dig, solar beam, ect.) but that would just be wasting a move slot just so you could hopefully pick the attack you want it to there is still the chance that sleep talk will pick rest or another move. but still at least you have a chance of attacking instead of doing nothing for two turns. Anyway I'm pretty certain you know this I just thought I would throw that out there for anyone new to Pkmn. Also would a set with Leftovers+Aqua Ring+Rest+Sleep Talk+Boiling Water/Surf be acceptable? I havent done any research on this but it does seem like it would be annoying to take down.

I can see your point but i have to tell you that milotic when asleep has enough bulk to afford picking 2 rests with sleep talk and then repeat again and she will get the move she wants sooner or later.
About the Leftovers+Aqua Ring+Rest+Sleep Talk+Boiling Water/Surf set,i think that recover instead of aqua ring is better as it heals immediatly 50% of her helth and such a set is deadly when paired with toxic spikes as it's almost impossible to take down.
Also i have always thought that she can make use of Psych up+recover but i don't really know how(EVs and moves).
I have always used milotic in competitive battles (the restalk set with dragon tail) and she is just HUGE and her SpD is just a blessing and it really kips her a part from other bulky waters.

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

Wait, does this need a 3rd QC check now?

 

[Plusle]

No

 

[zdrup15]

No

Why not? Its prefix is still Quality Control so, if you read the announcement, it says it will need a 3rd check (if the prefix was Copyediting you'd be right).

 

[Fatecrashers]

However, if your analysis has already been fully approved, this does not apply, even if you only have two stamps, so you can continue.

This analysis has had full approval since the 11th and technically should be in Copyediting except Cipher Admin Lovrina didn't change the prefix back then. If QC had anything else to say then they've had plenty of time for doing so. This doesn't need another QC check, just change the prefix to Copyediting already.

In short, I'm certain that announcement only applies to articles currently at QC 1/2 (soon to be 1/3).

 

[RaikouLover]

I'd like to see Hidden Power Fire slashed with Ice Beam on the main set. Water pokemon need to be able to deter Nat from setting up, and the bonus is doing alot more to Scizor, who Milotic is a decent check for (slower bulkier varients of SD Scizor).

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

I'd like to see Hidden Power Fire slashed with Ice Beam on the main set. Water pokemon need to be able to deter Nat from setting up, and the bonus is doing alot more to Scizor, who Milotic is a decent check for (slower bulkier varients of SD Scizor).

Will do!!! Although, I think someone might've told me it's only a 3HKO!

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

Hey y'all, I finished writing it up. I'm ready for GP checks, etc!

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Please put this in the proper format. Once it's in that format, I will add it to the queue for it to get GP checked. The format is detailed here for your information.