Social Neurodiversity

[Local Dog]

'Im not sure it's a uniquely American problem, but American schools are very hostile to kids who don't learn in the traditional lecturing/repetitionary way that they're expected to learn by.

I think that's a worldwide problem. I always struggled in school not because I performed badly with the material, but rather because I had issues with authoritarian teachers and learning methods I couldn't apply. I wasn't diagnosed with it but I've seen cases of kids like me who were misdiagnosed with it

That said, I do believe ADHD exists. I've met people with it who were having the whole symptoms catalog. And I doubt that the medical community as a whole just lies about a condition that's widespread

 

[Divine Retribution]

And I doubt that the medical community as a whole just lies about a condition that's widespread

>laughs in Asperger's syndrome

 

[Local Dog]

>laughs in Asperger's syndrome

isn't Asperger's just autism that was given a different name?

 

[Divine Retribution]

isn't Asperger's just autism that was given a different name?

Yes. Fun fact, it was also coined by a Nazi. My point is more that psychology is a very poorly understood field with a lot of frankly bad science floating around in it, so an entire disorder being assimilated into a wider form of neurodivergence is not only possible but has precedence.

In my layman's opinion, the way we look at and label neurodivergence is itself problematic and often unproductive. There's nothing "wrong' with the majority of neurodivergent people and who exactly gets to determine what an "orderly" mental state is? There are mental states that are different than the general template we've built society around, and there are some that are harmful and should be treated, but our incessant need to fit everything neatly underneath labels does more harm than good. Two neurodivergent people with the same diagnosis can be so radically different that it essentially tells you nothing about them other than that their mental state doesn't seem to function the way society thinks it should, and yet they're often treated with one-size-fits-all treatment plans that might not actually help them. I've experienced this firsthand in multiple ways.

None of this is to say that neuroscience or psychology is illegitimate, but the fields have fundamental problems in the way they approach neurodivergence that I think need to be resolved in order for neurodivergent people to meaningfuly be fully incorporated into and accomodated for in society rather than being treated like a problem that needs to be solved or mitigated.

 

[Ironmage]

Yes. Fun fact, it was also coined by a Nazi. My point is more that psychology is a very poorly understood field with a lot of frankly bad science floating around in it, so an entire disorder being assimilated into a wider form of neurodivergence is not only possible but has precedence.

In my layman's opinion, the way we look at and label neurodivergence is itself problematic and often unproductive. There's nothing "wrong' with the majority of neurodivergent people and who exactly gets to determine what an "orderly" mental state is? There are mental states that are different than the general template we've built society around, and there are some that are harmful and should be treated, but our incessant need to fit everything neatly underneath labels does more harm than good. Two neurodivergent people with the same diagnosis can be so radically different that it essentially tells you nothing about them other than that their mental state doesn't seem to function the way society thinks it should, and yet they're often treated with one-size-fits-all treatment plans that might not actually help them. I've experienced this firsthand in multiple ways.

None of this is to say that neuroscience or psychology is illegitimate, but the fields have fundamental problems in the way they approach neurodivergence that I think need to be resolved in order for neurodivergent people to meaningfuly be fully incorporated into and accomodated for in society rather than being treated like a problem that needs to be solved or mitigated.

My stance on psychology (though as a whole, not necessarily studies focused on neurodivergent people specifically) is this: no science is perfect, and it's often accepted to aim for 95% statistical certainty (p-value <0.05 and all that). However, that means that if you happen to be rarer than 1 in 20, there's the possibility of being labeled an outlier and not actually counted in the general reported result. Psychology is also very difficult to meaningfully control conditions while still getting usable results.

 

[phosphor]

I'm not sure whether this fits here, but I'm diagnosed with a bunch of stuff I'm not too comfortable directly talking about, and when I'm outside I often find myself masking as hard as possible and keeping my emotional state as low and negative as possible because when I'm in a high-energy state I'm always in danger of doing something "wrong". Does anybody else experience this? The constant vigilance gets tiring.

Also, is it just me? I find that in some public circles, even if they say they are accepting of neurodiversity, in practice I find that if people so much as have a hint you aren't "normal" it's total social death? I'm not trying to antagonize anyone here, I just want to express my frustration at what I experience.

 

[Local Dog]

I'm not sure whether this fits here, but I'm diagnosed with a bunch of stuff I'm not too comfortable directly talking about, and when I'm outside I often find myself masking as hard as possible and keeping my emotional state as low and negative as possible because when I'm in a high-energy state I'm always in danger of doing something "wrong". Does anybody else experience this? The constant vigilance gets tiring.

Yeah but it's less because of neurodivergence and rather with anger issues and childhood experiences

I had anger issues all my life and got into a lot of physical fights as a kid. I was basically always angry and I needed to restrain myself to not lose it in some way. I was also always very anti-authoritan in a conservative christian household, which, you know, doesn't really mix

So I had to always cover my true feelings and thoughts. I never really stopped doing so. It's very difficult for me to express anything really towards others when I had to hide and restrain myself all my life. I can't even say it's tiring, it just is. Like breathing

 

[divine.lathe]

I'm not sure whether this fits here, but I'm diagnosed with a bunch of stuff I'm not too comfortable directly talking about, and when I'm outside I often find myself masking as hard as possible and keeping my emotional state as low and negative as possible because when I'm in a high-energy state I'm always in danger of doing something "wrong". Does anybody else experience this? The constant vigilance gets tiring.

Also, is it just me? I find that in some public circles, even if they say they are accepting of neurodiversity, in practice I find that if people so much as have a hint you aren't "normal" it's total social death? I'm not trying to antagonize anyone here, I just want to express my frustration at what I experience.

i feel much the same :< hypervigilance is something ive always dealt with. much of it for me definitely stems from being autistic & having social anxiety, but especially when talking about outside contexts, agoraphobia doesnt help either. i feel so unsafe or at the least uncomfortable in most spaces & it leads to much higher stress levels, making it difficult to unmask even a slight bit. granted i have a hard time unmasking even when alone in my safest space, so,,,

as for people/circles that claim to be accepting of nd individuals, yeah, its exceedingly frustrating!! its all too common for "allies" to be all talk, & the actuality of their beliefs/actions rear their head when you scratch past the surface. this goes for every marginalised community really, i personally experience this wrt queer allies & those that pride themselves on accepting people with physical disabilities. oftentimes its just a facade & its pretty depressing tbh. i hope ur able to find better communities!! ♡

 

[NaboGaming]

I'm so happy to share this: as of Halloween this year, I have been officially diagnosed with autism!! the papers arrived yesterday (December 3rd) and I'm very happy, please feel free to ask me questions about my diagnosis I'm super happy to answer, I love talking about this!! :3

 

[bdt2002]

I'm so happy to share this: as of Halloween this year, I have been officially diagnosed with autism!! the papers arrived yesterday (December 3rd) and I'm very happy, please feel free to ask me questions about my diagnosis I'm super happy to answer, I love talking about this!! :3

This says a lot about my opinions on the holidays, but is it bad that I genuinely find this more important and significant than anything else that would have happened on Halloween this year? This feels wrong somehow. Nonetheless, I admire your enthusiasm. It's been a decent while since I've stopped by this thread. First thing I'll be able to tell you as someone who wants to work with and for neurodivergents for a living: no two cases are exactly the same. You'll likely find that you've had a lot of questions whose answers could possibly be explained with your diagnosis, or at the very least get you started with searching for answers. At the same time, though, spectrum disorders are generally broad enough to where your reactions and responses will be very different from other people in a similar situation.

 

[NaboGaming]

This says a lot about my opinions on the holidays, but is it bad that I genuinely find this more important and significant than anything else that would have happened on Halloween this year? This feels wrong somehow. Nonetheless, I admire your enthusiasm. It's been a decent while since I've stopped by this thread. First thing I'll be able to tell you as someone who wants to work with and for neurodivergents for a living: no two cases are exactly the same. You'll likely find that you've had a lot of questions whose answers could possibly be explained with your diagnosis, or at the very least get you started with searching for answers. At the same time, though, spectrum disorders are generally broad enough to where your reactions and responses will be very different from other people in a similar situation.

first off, kinda agree on the holiday thing, my Halloween sucked but this made it awesome! and about the no two cases part, my therapist always likes to say "if you've meet one autistic person, you've only met one autistic person"

 

[Triple777 Vinny]

posting here bc i've been struggling a lot recently. what are some ways u guys deal with stimming? its been affecting me really negatively for a long time.

 

[ZippyDoo200]

posting here bc i've been struggling a lot recently. what are some ways u guys deal with stimming? its been affecting me really negatively for a long time.

Stimming = being stimulated/manic?

Antidepressants were the only thing that helped my manic moods. It also made it worse for the first 6-8 weeks while the drug stablized.

Im also not really cured. Frankly the only times i feel happy now are when im manic. If i feel “happy” normally I usually feel guilty afterwards too. I know that if my life was even just a little bit worse, I would’ve ended myself at this point.

 

[scourgesys]

hi, this is the best place in this forum i could find to ask this question, which is technically about pokemon but it can also be not about it, so may we discuss it in general?

how do you get over executive dysfunction when playing games? even when its a game i enjoy and want to play, i struggle to click the button to start playing it, leaving me procrastinating on playing the game and doing nothing, with the intent of playing it but never actually going forward with that plan. for most games i play, i think this stems from the fact that they require some time commitment, and i get stuck in "waiting mode" (if you dont know what that is: its when youre unable to start a task if you have something to do coming up, even if its several hours from now), except the upcoming tasks that prevent me from playing are eating and sleeping, which i have every day.

for competitive games, its not a big time commitment, but its kinda stressful, i get afraid of making mistakes and embarrassing myself, i get afraid of losing, and theres also the social interaction aspect. i was even able to mostly overcome the social anxiety with competitive games and play a bunch of pokemon matches over the last month, but even though im now able to at least play the game sometimes, its still not as often or as freely as i wish. i would love to decide "i wanna play this game" and then just do it, id improve so much on all the games i play.

sorry if this is too pokemon-related for this board, i just could not find a better place for this, and yet i still feel like this post is on-topic with this thread, so i feel justified, but if im wrong do tell, and thank you for reading, any responses and help are appreciated.

 

[Lasen]

hi, this is the best place in this forum i could find to ask this question, which is technically about pokemon but it can also be not about it, so may we discuss it in general?

how do you get over executive dysfunction when playing games? even when its a game i enjoy and want to play, i struggle to click the button to start playing it, leaving me procrastinating on playing the game and doing nothing, with the intent of playing it but never actually going forward with that plan. for most games i play, i think this stems from the fact that they require some time commitment, and i get stuck in "waiting mode" (if you dont know what that is: its when youre unable to start a task if you have something to do coming up, even if its several hours from now), except the upcoming tasks that prevent me from playing are eating and sleeping, which i have every day.

for competitive games, its not a big time commitment, but its kinda stressful, i get afraid of making mistakes and embarrassing myself, i get afraid of losing, and theres also the social interaction aspect. i was even able to mostly overcome the social anxiety with competitive games and play a bunch of pokemon matches over the last month, but even though im now able to at least play the game sometimes, its still not as often or as freely as i wish. i would love to decide "i wanna play this game" and then just do it, id improve so much on all the games i play.

sorry if this is too pokemon-related for this board, i just could not find a better place for this, and yet i still feel like this post is on-topic with this thread, so i feel justified, but if im wrong do tell, and thank you for reading, any responses and help are appreciated.

I had a similar issue in the summer when I switched my work hours and would get home at almost 2am; I simply could NOT commit myself to playing anything besides 2 tour games a week which meant I went into some matchups completely untested or recycling teams (I sometimes just didn't bother logging into showdown at all).
I think you have to find a "compromise" of sorts. It's obvious to me as a reader who knows next to nothing about you that you WANT to play the game so why not play the least committal metagames you can? Hop onto an alt you made 3 seconds ago, play some Challenger Cup 1v1 or Random Battles-hell, there's even an unrated RandBats ladder for you to hop onto if your executive dysfunction comes with a fear of losing points. It's a pretty easy way to trick your brain both into seeing Pokemon as something you can commit time into and it warms you up to (potentially) play tiers that require building.

 

[Ironmage]

I had a similar issue in the summer when I switched my work hours and would get home at almost 2am; I simply could NOT commit myself to playing anything besides 2 tour games a week which meant I went into some matchups completely untested or recycling teams (I sometimes just didn't bother logging into showdown at all).
I think you have to find a "compromise" of sorts. It's obvious to me as a reader who knows next to nothing about you that you WANT to play the game so why not play the least committal metagames you can? Hop onto an alt you made 3 seconds ago, play some Challenger Cup 1v1 or Random Battles-hell, there's even an unrated RandBats ladder for you to hop onto if your executive dysfunction comes with a fear of losing points. It's a pretty easy way to trick your brain both into seeing Pokemon as something you can commit time into and it warms you up to (potentially) play tiers that require building.

Man, I really enjoyed unrated randbats as a time filler back in gen 7. Maybe the older gen versions will be more tolerable than dexited gen 8/9? I could never get into that restriction.

 

[bdt2002]

I have a question for you guys. Do any of you feel like you have a constant underlying desire to help other people but you don't want to help yourself at the same time? Or maybe you just find that so many little things in life that you can't control stress you out enough collectively to where you started thinking other people are the only ones who matter? I'm not sure if this is a neurodiverse thing or if this is just me wanting to complain- it's probably the latter- but I'm in the second half of my fourth year of higher-level education right now and I've lost any and all desire have fun or enjoy myself. All I can think about recently is how some people have periodically told me that my attitude is bad and how I've more than likely thrown away the past three and a half years of my life since at this point I don't know what I want out of my education and it's too late to change anything. In an effort to keep this post relevant, I don't see anyone else in person treating themselves like this, especially no one I believe to be quote "neurotypical". I'm not the type who's interested in physically harming myself, but the amount of negative things I've got myself believing in would have you believe otherwise. I just don't get it. The quality of my life is really great, and I can still be happy about some things, as evident by the fact that, well, I'm still here posting on these forums from time to time. But even so, I can't make basic decisions without wanting to pull my hair out, I can't tell myself to do something and actually want to get it done, and I can't even decide if I'm feeling anything or what those feelings even are.

I don't even think I should write this post. I don't want to do or say anything that is going to sound negative, because I've pretty much indoctrinated myself into believing that "Negative = Bad" regardless of the situation. But I'm going to anyways, even though I consciously don't know why. DO I just want attention? Do I just want to be understood? Should I even call myself neurodiverse if saying I am is going to just feel like I'm making excuses? I can't even tell what the point of my own post is. All I can tell you is that I don't understand who I am, what I want, and that other people being happy at least makes me feel like I'm doing something correctly in life. Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to go gloat over the fact that I apparently thought posting this on the Internet for the world to see was a better idea than keeping my mouth shut to avoid the risk of hurting anyone's feelings.

 

[Amaranth]

I have a question for you guys. Do any of you feel like you have a constant underlying desire to help other people but you don't want to help yourself at the same time? Or maybe you just find that so many little things in life that you can't control stress you out enough collectively to where you started thinking other people are the only ones who matter? I'm not sure if this is a neurodiverse thing or if this is just me wanting to complain- it's probably the latter- but I'm in the second half of my fourth year of higher-level education right now and I've lost any and all desire have fun or enjoy myself. All I can think about recently is how some people have periodically told me that my attitude is bad and how I've more than likely thrown away the past three and a half years of my life since at this point I don't know what I want out of my education and it's too late to change anything. In an effort to keep this post relevant, I don't see anyone else in person treating themselves like this, especially no one I believe to be quote "neurotypical". I'm not the type who's interested in physically harming myself, but the amount of negative things I've got myself believing in would have you believe otherwise. I just don't get it. The quality of my life is really great, and I can still be happy about some things, as evident by the fact that, well, I'm still here posting on these forums from time to time. But even so, I can't make basic decisions without wanting to pull my hair out, I can't tell myself to do something and actually want to get it done, and I can't even decide if I'm feeling anything or what those feelings even are.

I don't even think I should write this post. I don't want to do or say anything that is going to sound negative, because I've pretty much indoctrinated myself into believing that "Negative = Bad" regardless of the situation. But I'm going to anyways, even though I consciously don't know why. DO I just want attention? Do I just want to be understood? Should I even call myself neurodiverse if saying I am is going to just feel like I'm making excuses? I can't even tell what the point of my own post is. All I can tell you is that I don't understand who I am, what I want, and that other people being happy at least makes me feel like I'm doing something correctly in life. Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to go gloat over the fact that I apparently thought posting this on the Internet for the world to see was a better idea than keeping my mouth shut to avoid the risk of hurting anyone's feelings.

I've definitely struggled with similar thoughts before. I think they come naturally as a consequence of being disconnected to your own feelings - you don't understand them (certainly not in the intuitive way neurotypicals do), so you don't even know how to begin trying to improve them, and you probably also neglect them along the way, and you can end up in pretty bad places when that stockpiles over multiple years. It sounds like you really aren't sad about yourself, moreso disinterested, which is a place I've also been before, and I only really made it out by making a conscious effort to become interested. You need to take the decision that you want to understand what's happening with yourself, and that you're not scared of facing yourself and your emotions for what they are, and that you will abandon self-judgement to make space for something productive - and that will open a lot of doors for self-improvement.

Nowadays I try to make a conscious effort to really understand and rationalize my own emotions when I notice that they are there. I know that I will never "feel" these feelings intuitively the same way a neurotypical would, but that doesn't mean they aren't there - I still get the adrenaline spikes when I'm angry, the serotonin spikes when I'm happy, all that jazz - so it's a matter of being mindful of them even when they don't make themselves evident to me. It brings me a lot of clarity, and you sound like you could use a bit of clarity in your life right now.

Something that helps me is telling someone close to me whenever I'm feeling something but I don't understand it yet, transparently - "this thing happened and it's making me feel weird" - and trying to articulate what is going on exactly. If you have actual people you can do this with that's ideal, if you don't have that kind of connection with anyone writing into a diary also probably works too. Forcing yourself to explain what is going on and why will often unearth some very helpful realizations.

Good luck buddy, and don't worry about sharing these kinds of things here. This is what this thread is for, if other people don't like these thoughts it's on them for clicking here. You have a right to be heard

 

[bdt2002]

I've definitely struggled with similar thoughts before. I think they come naturally as a consequence of being disconnected to your own feelings - you don't understand them (certainly not in the intuitive way neurotypicals do), so you don't even know how to begin trying to improve them, and you probably also neglect them along the way, and you can end up in pretty bad places when that stockpiles over multiple years. It sounds like you really aren't sad about yourself, moreso disinterested, which is a place I've also been before, and I only really made it out by making a conscious effort to become interested. You need to take the decision that you want to understand what's happening with yourself, and that you're not scared of facing yourself and your emotions for what they are, and that you will abandon self-judgement to make space for something productive - and that will open a lot of doors for self-improvement.

Nowadays I try to make a conscious effort to really understand and rationalize my own emotions when I notice that they are there. I know that I will never "feel" these feelings intuitively the same way a neurotypical would, but that doesn't mean they aren't there - I still get the adrenaline spikes when I'm angry, the serotonin spikes when I'm happy, all that jazz - so it's a matter of being mindful of them even when they don't make themselves evident to me. It brings me a lot of clarity, and you sound like you could use a bit of clarity in your life right now.

Something that helps me is telling someone close to me whenever I'm feeling something but I don't understand it yet, transparently - "this thing happened and it's making me feel weird" - and trying to articulate what is going on exactly. If you have actual people you can do this with that's ideal, if you don't have that kind of connection with anyone writing into a diary also probably works too. Forcing yourself to explain what is going on and why will often unearth some very helpful realizations.

Good luck buddy, and don't worry about sharing these kinds of things here. This is what this thread is for, if other people don't like these thoughts it's on them for clicking here. You have a right to be heard

At the time I’m typing this post, some of my college friends are playing a tabletop game with each other in a group of three. They asked if I wanted to join, but when I mentioned that I didn’t feel like playing, I noticed that me and the person I was talking to weren’t exactly on the same page. Said person insisted that I was still bothered by the last time I play just last night, and while they were absolutely right, I know I can’t afford to tell them I was upset or why that was. It was twofold, between very degenerate player teaming and the amount of cards on the table being genuinely overwhelming to even look at. In spite of that, without me realizing it was happening, something about my attitude with not wanting to play must have been bothering them for a moment.

I sound like a broken record at this point with how many times I’ve meant this across the forums by now, but I’m increasingly starting to dislike multiplayer activities of any kind that force me to constrain to the rules and norms of the group playing together. Maybe this is a neurodiverse thing my college friends can’t relate to or understand I don’t want to selfishly assume they don’t care, even if the thought’s crossed my mind but I am much bigger fan of situations where I can practice and improve on my own without being afraid of being judged, talked about, or ignored. Thank you for your consideration, in the meantime.

 

[Ironmage]

At the time I’m typing this post, some of my college friends are playing a tabletop game with each other in a group of three. They asked if I wanted to join, but when I mentioned that I didn’t feel like playing, I noticed that me and the person I was talking to weren’t exactly on the same page. Said person insisted that I was still bothered by the last time I play just last night, and while they were absolutely right, I know I can’t afford to tell them I was upset or why that was. It was twofold, between very degenerate player teaming and the amount of cards on the table being genuinely overwhelming to even look at. In spite of that, without me realizing it was happening, something about my attitude with not wanting to play must have been bothering them for a moment.

I sound like a broken record at this point with how many times I’ve meant this across the forums by now, but I’m increasingly starting to dislike multiplayer activities of any kind that force me to constrain to the rules and norms of the group playing together. Maybe this is a neurodiverse thing my college friends can’t relate to or understand I don’t want to selfishly assume they don’t care, even if the thought’s crossed my mind but I am much bigger fan of situations where I can practice and improve on my own without being afraid of being judged, talked about, or ignored. Thank you for your consideration, in the meantime.

I kind of end up with the issue from the other direction: what for most people is apparently an overwhelming amount of effects going on is to me just getting to the good stuff. For PvP games, I feel pushed out because others want to be able to understand what I'm doing without asking despite the fact that I'll gladly do a full supervillain monologue of my plans purely out of how cool I think the chain of events I've built is. I've had difficulty with wargames juggling being at the top end of complexity the game can offer (because it's designed to appeal to people with lower complexity preferences) and playing a faction or unit that I just find cooler than the rest as they're both parts of what I'm looking for in a fun night out (there's probably some irony somewhere that going vehicle-heavy is frequently not where to find tons of moving parts).

I do definitely agree with valuing opportunities that don't have attached social pressures. It's a big reason I still miss the Battle Frontier in Pokemon.

 

[NaboGaming]

i constantly feel terrible about the thoughts that I have and i wish i didn't but hey x3

 

[bdt2002]

i constantly feel terrible about the thoughts that I have and i wish i didn't but hey x3

It’s usually pretty difficult for neurodiverse people to understand if they’re quote “supposed” to be feeling the ways they are. If you’re anything like me, you hold yourself to an unhealthily high standard all of the time so you can theoretically make sure you never upset anyone else or disappoint them. There is evidence both for and against the stereotypical belief that nobody cares what individuals think, and I personally find it difficult to believe in a positive outlook when negativity is fed to us so commonly that we become desensitized to it and end up being uncomfortable whenever something does go my way.

Or maybe I shouldn’t have gone to school with a bunch of neurotypical peers. That might be part of the problem.

 

[NaboGaming]

It’s usually pretty difficult for neurodiverse people to understand if they’re quote “supposed” to be feeling the ways they are. If you’re anything like me, you hold yourself to an unhealthily high standard all of the time so you can theoretically make sure you never upset anyone else or disappoint them. There is evidence both for and against the stereotypical belief that nobody cares what individuals think, and I personally find it difficult to believe in a positive outlook when negativity is fed to us so commonly that we become desensitized to it and end up being uncomfortable whenever something does go my way.

Or maybe I shouldn’t have gone to school with a bunch of neurotypical peers. That might be part of the problem.

yeah being surrounded by NTs doesnt help

 

[fortunate sun]

i constantly feel terrible about the thoughts that I have and i wish i didn't but hey x3

intrusive thoughts are brutal. I actually got some great advice from a girl in my last writing class who wrote about her experiences with them

her advice was to take all of the unwanted thoughts and picture a specific caricature of a person you dont respect saying them.

example: "i feel like the car is gonna swerve off the road and kill me". -> Shut up, Craig, it probably won't. What do you know about automobiles when you literally can't tie your shoes and smell funny.

it's a bit silly, but i've found it can help even with more disturbing and concerning ones.

Regardless, just remember actions define a person and not thoughts. Have a great day

 

[1LDK]

her advice was to take all of the unwanted thoughts and picture a specific caricature of a person you dont respect saying them.

Isn't this literally portraying your problems and enemies as the soy wojak?