New and 'creative' moveset/EV spread thread Mk. 5

[Athenodoros]

I think that it could work, but a SD set is too ambicious for something with not much defence and lacking speed. It is hit too hard by most threats. I think, overall, it needs too much help from a team, and with that much support other Pokemon could do much better.

 

[Alchemator]

You would have remembered it being on the analysis because at one point it was on the analysis. However, in a relatively recent update it was taken down because its Speed was too low, and had too many weaknesses on which Pokemon such as Heatran could prey. I believe user Metanite was an advocate of the set.

 

[kyu]

This is a set I've used and loved, but unfortunately seems as if it won't survive the transition to Black/White. But I'll post it anyways, even if nobody ever tries it out:

Double Status Breloom

Jolly Breloom @ Toxic Orb
44 HP / 28 Def / 252 Spe / 184 SpD
Poison Heal

- Spore
- Stun Spore
- Substitute
- Leech Seed

This might seem like a gimmick set; how can you run Breloom without any attacks? Don't Taunt, Substitute, Grass-types, and Rest utterly destroy it? This set works, in my opinion, because it's a lure. When people see Breloom, they do something along these lines: switch something into Spore, switch to something else that can shrug off Focus Punch/Seed Bomb. Dealing with Breloom correctly is crucial, because once he sets up he can wreak havoc on a team; people tend to assume that you're running Focus Punch and react accordingly. And that's not a bad assumption, because in August, 85.6% of Brelooms on the Standard Ladder used Focus Punch.

So Double Status with zero attacks might be a gimmick, but I think it works in it's own respect. This set essentially lures in Breloom's typical checks--Zapdos, Rotom, something faster with U-turn, Gengar, Infernape, a lot of stuff I'm missing--and cripples them with paralysis. After inflicting paralysis, you can either Substitute until they get fully paralyzed (risky) or switch to something that checks the threat (sane). What's nice about the first option is that, since Breloom now outspeeds them, you can stall them with Leech Seed/Substitute very effectively.

I use Leech Seed over any attack because it gives Breloom some recovery/reusability, and it doesn't require any attack EVs. After maxing out his speed (to create more openings for the initial Spore), you can pour the rest into defensive stats, although the spread I listed probably isn't optimal. Another option is 12 HP / 244 Def / 252 Spe; 12 HP for Poison Heal efficiency, and 244 Def allows him to survive DDTar's Fire Punch ~80% of the time. Low HP is good for Leech Seed, but this spread has pitiful special bulk, which makes it difficult to switch in on bulky waters.

Zapdos is a good teammate because he tends to lure Blissey and Tyranitar which are usually opportunities for Breloom to set up. Zapdos also enjoys offensive threats being paralyzed.
​

 

[Coldcut]

About the Breloom, I'm just wondering what Substitute accomplishes for you. This set looks like it could force a lot of switches, so maybe Focus Punch, despite the loss in surprise factor, is a decent alternative. Even without Attack EV's, 150 BP STAB with 130 base Attack is going to hurt. Also, Force Palm can serve nearly the same purpose as Stun Spore while doing some damage, and even Drain Punch deserves a mention to increase Breloom's survivability, though PP becomes an issue in stall wars. Seed Bomb is also a reasonable alternative, hitting Gyarados and Gliscor for neutral damage, even easily Breaking Gengar's subs with no Att EV's.

Also, unless the Sp Def EV's are for something specific, I would recommend putting them into Def and/or Att since 1) Breloom is still pretty specially soft even with lots of Sp Def EV's and 2) it is a shame to let 130 base attack go un-boosted.

I would at least slash in Force Palm and Seed Bomb alongside Stun Spore and Substitute. I think you might accomplish the same thing with these alternatives, but with more of an emphasis on direct damage.

 

[kyu]

Substitute eases prediction and lets you SubSeed anything that lacks recovery. Since Breloom's HP isn't particularly high, Poison Heal + Leech Seed almost always recovers the 25% you lose from Substitute each turn.

I guess Force Palm could be used in place of Stun Spore, but it still doesn't hit ghosts, isn't going to do much damage to the stuff that switches into it, and has a much lower chance of paralysis. If you ran the set you're suggesting--Spore/Force Palm/Seed Bomb/Leech Seed--I don't really see how Breloom would fare better against his usual checks than a standard Spore/Substitute/Focus Punch/Seed Bomb set. The double status set deliberately doesn't emphasize direct damage and instead focuses on being able to cripple the things that usually switch in on it.

 

[broodjekebab]

I agree that Force Palm isn't reliable enough, but I would recommend Seed Bomb (with Atk EVs). Without it, Gliscor and Gyarados can just come in, taunt you, and possibly set up on you.

 

[kyu]

A single pokemon doesn't need to be capable of handling the whole of OU... If you think they're going to Taunt, you can just take the free turn to bring in your Gliscor/Gyarados check. Besides, he outspeeds Bulky Gyara, so you can Stun Spore before it can Taunt you.

 

[AllhailMe]

This was posted before a while back but to know response so I digged it back up for discussion.

Stallrein

Walrein @ Leftovers
Bold Nature
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
- Aqua Ring
- Substitute
- Protect
- Blizzard / Surf / Toxic / Super Fang / Roar

Walrein has gained Aqua Ring as a new move addition in HGSS. Aqua Ring,paired with Ice Body and Leftovers,heals 18.75% of Walrein's HP, when paired with Protect, is 37.5% HP in two turns, enough to make infinite Substitutes. Plus, Walrein easily stalls pokemon out with Substitute + Protect, stalling their PP out. Hail does 6.25% HP damage too, and can annoy people. The last slot is of your choice. Blizzard gains 100% Accuracy in Hail and has STAB, bringing it to 180 Power. Surf also has STAB and also hits all Ice- pokemon who resist hail. Toxic is the best option here, as it stalls out pokemon along with Hail. In a turn, a pokemon can lose at least 12% of HP. Super Fang is also another option, to reduce Pokemon's HP by half and letting Hail kill them. Use it 3 times, reduce it to 12% HP, set up Sub, and Protect. Hail kills them. Roar is another move if you have Spikes, Toxic Spikes and Stealth Rock on your team,which makes it a good option as pokemon who are non Levitating take 37.5% damage every turn. Inclusive of Hail,it takes 43.75% HP damage everytime it switches in.

On the last move slot what would be the best option in your opinion?

I think that Hyper Fang eating up half their HP would be best because I can already have Toxic Spikes down and when my opponent is forced to switch they are hurt by any residual damage due to spikes/stealth rock/hail. If they switch into a spinner i can throw out a Parafusion Froslass and they eat a STAB 100% accuracy hail while Confusion haxed. On another note with enough entry hazards placed Roar can be even more Effective for scouting purposes, eating health and letting poison afflict the opposition.

 

[Athenodoros]

There is a Walrein analysis almost identical already on the site, with the only difference in yours being Aqua Ring. However, Aqua Ring is not as useful as the move it loses: It really wants things like Toxic and Blizzard in order to stall effectively, and it really only needs the 25% in two turns that it already gets. The only use for this set would be if there were no hail present, in which case it could still stall, but then it will miss the passive damage that it relies on to do anything.

 

[AllhailMe]

There is a Walrein analysis almost identical already on the site, with the only difference in yours being Aqua Ring. However, Aqua Ring is not as useful as the move it loses: It really wants things like Toxic and Blizzard in order to stall effectively, and it really only needs the 25% in two turns that it already gets. The only use for this set would be if there were no hail present, in which case it could still stall, but then it will miss the passive damage that it relies on to do anything.

But with the lack of EVs in SpAtk wouldn't Super Fang prove to be more effective if toxic spikes were already out? And an instant cut to 50% of your opponent taking in poison and hail is a deal breaker right?

 

[Athenodoros]

I suppose so. I suppose it would obviously be better without hail, but the trouble is that it needs an extra turn to set up, and given Walrein's low speed I think it would suffer, because every team has something super effective against Walrein. And yes, Super Fang is useful, sometimes more than Blizzard, and I suppose that with Toxic Spikes it could stall efectively. I think though that it would just have trouble keeping up in OU, where the one turn is enough to bring in any of the top threats, who would often hit it for Super Effective damage.

 

[Sharpteeth]

Ice Body and Lefties heal 12.5% a turn. 25% in two turns. That's already infinite subs, and, assuming you stall the opponent out, you always end up with a sub up anyway, to Toxic the next switch in, so you don't really need Aqua Ring when you can use that moveslot to Toxic Zapdos/Gyara/Cresselia as well as hurt them if they run Rest-Talk

 

[AllhailMe]

Ice Body and Lefties heal 12.5% a turn. 25% in two turns. That's already infinite subs, and, assuming you stall the opponent out, you always end up with a sub up anyway, to Toxic the next switch in, so you don't really need Aqua Ring when you can use that moveslot to Toxic Zapdos/Gyara/Cresselia as well as hurt them if they run Rest-Talk

Yep thats what I was thinking, so I guess Roar is out of the question then?

 

[bubbly]

Hi everyone :)
I've been testing out a Dual Screens Azelf lead and what amazed me was the ease it sets up SR with. I was running Reflect, Light Screen, Explosion and Stealth Rock and it can set up the relevant screen against virtually anything and then lay SR. The only problem is Aero leads, which you have to switch against, but the set helps out against a LOT of other things. Its very similar to the Dual Screener, but its primary aim is SR.

I haven't worked out the EV's/nature yet, although there's a few restrictions. For instance, I'd like to be faster than the standard Naive Infernape, and with some bulk you can take 2 Meteor Mashes and a Bullet Punch from Metagross etc.

Metagross = Probably works slightly better than the standard. You lose to Explosion but that doesn't matter much since you will have set up more than him if he explodes anyway. Like I said before, you can run some HP EV's. For instance, 252 HP means MM will hit you at a max of 41.5% under Reflect. You can't hurt him, but the usual Fire Blast won't let you do much damage anyway unless he sets up Rocks first/ Once you've set up, you can always Explode anyway. Annoying but you get so set up a guaranteed good position.

Azelf = Azelf isn't a great match up. Luckily, most will assume you are as fast as them and SR or U-turn. Obviously Taunt screws you over, if they do use it, so this is one of the couple of bad match ups. However it generally ends up with you both set up and then one or the other explodes. Using screens quickly is bad as it tells him that he can Taunt you.

Infernape = Here you're helped out quite a bit, as long as you're faster than him, which you can easily manage with some speed investment or maybe a Jolly nature. With Light Screen down, Fire Blast maxes out at 37.6% from a Naive Infernape, meaning you will always get three turns to set up or attack barring a crit.

Jirachi = This set doesn't really help you. The old Scarf lead, while kinda uncommon, beats the standard Azelf pretty easily, although it does give you a turn of easy set up after it flinch-kills you. With 252 HP EV's you never get 2HKO'd, so you do have a better chance of setting up.

Aerodactyl = the other lead you do worse against. It will Taunt, so you can either switch or Explode and break the sash.

Swampert = Kind of ambivalent. With the standard you can Taunt him and you're better off, lots will attack or switch. However, running Screens means you can generally set up against him whether he stays in or switches, and should give you a turn at least to finish set up or Explode against the thing which comes in. To give some perspective, CB Scizor's U-turn won't KO you under Reflect, so you're basically good.

Heatran = this might be slightly better for this set. He can 2HKO the standard lead with Fire Blast from the Shuca set, whereas with Screens down he can only 3HKO, giving you time to set up and Explode. Or he can Explode, giving you a turn of set up over him.

Machamp = This is a decent plus. Rather than running Colbur, which is kinda useless otherwise and leaves you open to loads of other powerful attacks; or LO, which again means things like Heatran can OHKO you; here you can reliably beat him if you run Leftovers, since he can't 2HKO.
You lose to Roserade, but it helps against Mamoswine, Dragonite etc etc as well.

So, I was thinking this kind of thing :


Azelf @ Leftovers (means you always beat Machamp).
-SR
-Reflect
-Light Screen
-Explosion (or U-turn, letting you break the Sash on Azelf and Aerodactyl).

Please help me out with the nature and EV's. It needs a fair bit of speed to beat milt and a fair bit of bulk too, so 252 HP / 252 speed looks very fair with a Jolly nature.

 

[Renosaur]

Hide

Hi everyone :)
I've been testing out a Dual Screens Azelf lead and what amazed me was the ease it sets up SR with. I was running Reflect, Light Screen, Explosion and Stealth Rock and it can set up the relevant screen against virtually anything and then lay SR. The only problem is Aero leads, which you have to switch against, but the set helps out against a LOT of other things. Its very similar to the Dual Screener, but its primary aim is SR.

I haven't worked out the EV's/nature yet, although there's a few restrictions. For instance, I'd like to be faster than the standard Naive Infernape, and with some bulk you can take 2 Meteor Mashes and a Bullet Punch from Metagross etc.

Metagross = Probably works slightly better than the standard. You lose to Explosion but that doesn't matter much since you will have set up more than him if he explodes anyway. Like I said before, you can run some HP EV's. For instance, 252 HP means MM will hit you at a max of 41.5% under Reflect. You can't hurt him, but the usual Fire Blast won't let you do much damage anyway unless he sets up Rocks first/ Once you've set up, you can always Explode anyway. Annoying but you get so set up a guaranteed good position.

Azelf = Azelf isn't a great match up. Luckily, most will assume you are as fast as them and SR or U-turn. Obviously Taunt screws you over, if they do use it, so this is one of the couple of bad match ups. However it generally ends up with you both set up and then one or the other explodes. Using screens quickly is bad as it tells him that he can Taunt you.

Infernape = Here you're helped out quite a bit, as long as you're faster than him, which you can easily manage with some speed investment or maybe a Jolly nature. With Light Screen down, Fire Blast maxes out at 37.6% from a Naive Infernape, meaning you will always get three turns to set up or attack barring a crit.

Jirachi = This set doesn't really help you. The old Scarf lead, while kinda uncommon, beats the standard Azelf pretty easily, although it does give you a turn of easy set up after it flinch-kills you. With 252 HP EV's you never get 2HKO'd, so you do have a better chance of setting up.

Aerodactyl = the other lead you do worse against. It will Taunt, so you can either switch or Explode and break the sash.

Swampert = Kind of ambivalent. With the standard you can Taunt him and you're better off, lots will attack or switch. However, running Screens means you can generally set up against him whether he stays in or switches, and should give you a turn at least to finish set up or Explode against the thing which comes in. To give some perspective, CB Scizor's U-turn won't KO you under Reflect, so you're basically good.

Heatran = this might be slightly better for this set. He can 2HKO the standard lead with Fire Blast from the Shuca set, whereas with Screens down he can only 3HKO, giving you time to set up and Explode. Or he can Explode, giving you a turn of set up over him.

Machamp = This is a decent plus. Rather than running Colbur, which is kinda useless otherwise and leaves you open to loads of other powerful attacks; or LO, which again means things like Heatran can OHKO you; here you can reliably beat him if you run Leftovers, since he can't 2HKO.
You lose to Roserade, but it helps against Mamoswine, Dragonite etc etc as well.

So, I was thinking this kind of thing :


Azelf @ Leftovers (means you always beat Machamp).
-SR
-Reflect
-Light Screen
-Explosion (or U-turn, letting you break the Sash on Azelf and Aerodactyl).

Please help me out with the nature and EV's. It needs a fair bit of speed to beat milt and a fair bit of bulk too, so 252 HP / 252 speed looks very fair with a Jolly nature.

Isn't this the standard Dual Screen set found here?
Except Light Clay is used instead of Lefties

 

[bubbly]

Almost. Its kinda different though. The point is, the Dual Screener basically sets up Screens and then dies to bring in something else. Its basically limited to very offensive teams. It also only has SR as a secondary option.

Whereas the above set just uses the screens to set up SR as the first purpose, then Explode while still getting use out of the screens.

I agree they're very similar, and more or less just differences in approach when using the set. Light Clay's a decent item to use on the above thing as well, obviously, but Leftovers lets it get another turn against a fair number of leads (Machamp, some Heatran, etc)>

 

[Athenodoros]

I can't imagine setting up screens in order to set up rocks. If you want rocks, you should just set them up, and if you want screens you should just set up screens. And I don't think you will get things like two turns against Machamp. I think it would be better to just go the whole way with the Light Clay set if you want the screens.

 

[bubbly]

Yeah, but most teams need SR and would very much like to have Screens :)
Look at the damage calcs, barring crits, or some unlucky rolls if he decides to confuse you, Machamp simply can't 2HKO you, and if you're lucky, he will only 3HKO.

 

[Athenodoros]

In order to get more than one move in against the standard Machamp lead (or almost any other machamp lead) you need to have leftovers, max Hp. and an investment in Def., which will drag down your speed by a lot. I think beating Machamp is a lost cause without Pyschic and a lot of Sp. Att., which sort of defeats the purpose of this set. I think Light Clay would be better, then, because the extra healing is not going to help much in the short time Azelf is around. And then of course you just have the standard set.

 

[Renosaur]

Yeah, but most teams need SR and would very much like to have Screens :)
Look at the damage calcs, barring crits, or some unlucky rolls if he decides to confuse you, Machamp simply can't 2HKO you, and if you're lucky, he will only 3HKO.

Most lead Machamps carry Payback if I recall. Payback+Bullet punch is a guarantee kill against Azelf with it setting up only 1 thing :L

 

[bubbly]

Athenodoros, with 252 HP and Jolly nature Payback does 45.2 - 53.7 % damage, which means Machamp has to get pretty close to max both times with Payback with Leftovers. Transferring only about 30EV's from HP to defense is enough to make sure you can't be 2HKO'd with Leftovers.

However, I suppose Light Clay might still be the better option, since Machamp isn't as popular now as it was a few months back and you still have a pretty good chance of getting two moves in anyway. You could even try putting a whole pile of HP in to defense to get Light Clay and still beat Machamp. Something like 120 HP/132 def/252 speed and jolly takes 49.8 % maximum from Payback, and still doesn't get 2HKO'd under Light Screen by things like Heatran's Fire Blast. However, it does mean you can get 2hko'd by boosted special attacks such as LO Starmie's Hydro Pump and 2 Draco Meteor's from Dragonite if they get high damage rolls.

Renosaur, I think you're missing the point. Azelf will reflect the first turn, meaning that Machamp does less damage. Basically you use the appropriate screen first depending on what you're facing, since the mixed leads (Infernape, Dragonite) can't hurt Azelf with their physical options this works fine.

 

[Athenodoros]

I forgot about Reflect, like Renosaur. I suppose then it could work, although you would still probably end up just running the standard Screen Azelf as a lead.

 

[ginganinja]

ehh I may as well post my Drapion set since I don't think anyone else has posted a set like it (to my knowledge)

Drapion (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 252 HP/220 Spd/38 SDef
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Taunt
- Crunch
- Earthquake
- Toxic Spikes

It works as an excellent Toxic Spiker and pretty much can get 2 layers very easily. I ran it in http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3007297
and it worked really well. Basically with base 95 Speed its outrunning lots of things, Heatran, Roserade etc and can taunt them or set up Toxic Spikes. Heatran needs LO I think to OHKO with Earth Power but otherwise with the HP investment Drapion can survive an Earthquake from pretty much anything in the OU tier. Taunt is pretty awesome as it lets you put a stop to Roserade and Breloom while preventing pokemon from setting up on you. Drapion is also pretty useful vs Stall as it can taunt Skarmory (or Blissey) and then Toxic Spike up.

I guess its similar to Roserade but Drapion has better overall bulk, is faster, and can use Taunt which is just an awesome move. I also believe it is better at toxic spikeing vs stall compared with Roserade as Blissey is pretty much a full stop to Roserade while Drapion can at least taunt Blissey and hit it with Crunch. Also Roserade (unless its a suicide lead) has to dedicate EV's to defense which makes it slower overall. Drapion can get up 2 layers on anything that cannot OHKO it or is slower than it which is quite a lot.

Anyway its just something I have been running thats been working pretty well and I thought I might share it with you guys.

 

[bubbly]

Yeah, Drapion does pretty decently in OU. I guess the problem with it transitioning from UU to OU is its typing. It has a pretty effective Toxic Spikes-Taunt-Whirlwind etc support set in UU, but that works partly because Psychic and Ghost attacks are much more common and Drapion can beat pretty much all of their users.

As a lead, the only common things which that Drapion can Taunt all carry a powerful Earthquake (Swampert, Hippowdon, Metagross). Outside of the lead slot, it doesn't have a lot of switch ins to things which won't severely hurt it, even if its overall good defenses mean that it probably won't get outright killed. Roserade has a great spdef stat which means it can come in on virtually every specially based Water type, and Natural Cure so it can Rest and switch out. So I'm not sure what its niche is really. Most Grass types, for instance, carry Earth Power.
Its definitely useable, but it can't cover resistances for the team the way other Toxic Spikers can :(

 

[ginganinja]

Yeah sorry I should have been more clear. Its not really meant to be a lead as with the rise of LO Heatran etc. It works as a mid game Toxic Spiker. Also remember that Drapion still has useful resistances (yes Ghost type attacks are not uncommon in OU look at Rotom).

some calcs

Max Attack Adamant Metagross does 65.7% - 77.91%
(Bullet Punch does 20.06% - 23.84%)

Standard MixPert does 63.37% - 75%

Scarf Heatran does 69.19% - 81.98% with EP

I am not saying its walling those hits. I am saying that certain ground moves will fail to OHKO. Drapion is meant to get those 2 layers up as fast as possible.

I guess I am pointing out that Drapion can take hits pretty well and that a grass type carrying EP does not always equal a OHKO. Roserade is excellent at taking special attacks, Drapion is better at taking Physical attacks. I am aware that it faces severe competition by Roserade and Forretress (thats why they are OU) but it still works reasonably well in OU.