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I am on mobile in school so bare with me, but Infernape is actually in need of a raise on the VR... The Pokemon does fantastically vs any play style, and picks what it wants to beat and what is doesn't. Infernape has literally 0 switch ins and can run a ton of different lure sets to cater to what a team needs. Nasty Plot + Focus Blast demolishes stall, vacuum wave does well vs Offense, and lure 4 attack sets like HP Ice/Electric do well eliminating annoying Pokemon that your team might want to get rid of(obviously more sets like mixed but I think those 3 are the most worth mentioning). If you look at the VR you can see Infernape has a way to handle pretty much every single Pokemon with the bonus of having a typing that does well vs the common special walls in the metagame. A Pokemon with this much diversity and consistentcy while outspeeding a majority of the tier makes it worth a raise imo. B+ is already questionable, the thought of lowering it to B just doesn't seem right.
Really agreeing with Christo., but I also am curious which drops really affected Infernape's viability. Most Gyarados gets dropped by standard Nast Plot set's grass knot (+2 252 SpA Life Orb Infernape Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 291-343 (74 - 87.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock) while also being vulnerable to SD sets with Thunder Punch, Crawdaunt is terrified of priority, Sableye can't touch any Infernape sets, Zapdos gets dropped by SD and NP at +2 (defensive sets have a like 10% chance of living if they're the right defense and rocks aren't up). Mixed/Lure sets hit almost all of these mons significantly, as well. Gardevoir is the only one who has a strong impact because it double resists, unless I'm missing some other significant drop (charizard?). I guess scarf isn't as good as it could be right now and SR sets are even more constrained for moveslots, but neither of those are really defining sets to me but rather a showcase of just how versatile it can be.
I'm actually shocked it's as low as it was - when I read the post I thought "Oh, maybe it's not A+ anymore with Gyarados around." I really did think it was higher and support a raise 100%.
Amphy is definitely becoming more useful with the recent additions to the tier and I think it deserves a rise but not by all that much. A- is way too high for it imo and I would have a much easier time fitting most of the b+ ranks on a team as well. Mamphy is a good check to some things, including craw and gyara but that is pretty much it. It gets outclassed as a water check by a lot of things, like helio (arguably) which is at the bottom of b+. It gets outclassed as a dragon by just about every other dragon in the tier, including msceptile. It receives tough competition for a mega slot by almost all of the megas currently higher than it. I think it deserves around high b, just below Mabsol.
Gonna have to disagree with Heliolisk being a better water check. Sure it eats Scalds better, but what about all the physical waters? Can Heliolisk take on a +1 Gatr 1v1? How about Sharpedo? Can it switch into Craw and Gyarados? Obviously Amphy doesn't counter all of these but it easily 1v1s every relevant water in the tier except Mega Swampert.
Nor is it outclassed by every other Dragon in the tier. If by outclassed you mean it dies to them 1v1, then sure. But no other dragon has access to Volt Switch which is literally the only reason to use Mega Ampharos. The entire point of Ampharos is not to spam Dragon STAB but Volt Switch to gain momentum since Amphy is the best pivot in the tier after Mega Beedrill. It has great bulk + typing to be able to safely Volt Switch on so many mons in the tier. The list of mons it abuses is much higher than you make it out to be. It is not a "good check to some
things." It threatens 90% of water types, Steels (Forry, Aggron, Cobalion, Doublade, Flying types (Bat, Torn, Zapdos is a stalemate but you can pivot out, soft Aero check), and Fires (Entei, Chandy, M-Doom, NP Ape).
No other mon in the tier provides the combined utility of Ampharos. Sure there may be a better check to Waters, and another mon may check Flying types better, Amphy does all this in one teamslot. The only downside to using Ampharos is using your Mega, low speed so it's not very good on offense, and maybe stacking weaknesses if you want to use another Dragon. It's extremely powerful and slow Volt Switch is amazing and a huge pain for balance/BO lacking Grounds (which are dropping in usage and is one of my biggest arguments for a rise), and it's bulk and typing makes it not deadweight vs offense since it can take out one threat.
Heliolisk is arguably a better check to defensive Water-types (Suicune, Empoleon, etc.), but Mega Ampharos is 100% a better answer to the physical Waters. I'm not sure if it should rise all the way to A- because of the fact that it costs you your Mega slot, but it definitely deserves to be at least high B, probably B+. It's one of the best pivots in the tier and checks a lot of the biggest threats in UU (Entei, Cobalion, our five million physical Waters, Infernape, Zapdos, etc.), and the reasons to use it on a team just keep increasing with the new drops.
Infernape should definitely move up. It has serious 4MSS, but it's so customizable and its sets are easily tailored to beating whatever the team it's on struggles with. Maybe raise it to A-? I'm not sure it should be higher, since a lot of sets struggle with coverage (its movepool gives it a ton of coverage options outside of its STABs, but most sets have 2 slots max to make use of them).
So I got back home, ran some calcs, and was surprised. I was assuming that MAmphy was bulky enough to succeed at its job without having to run a complete physically defensive set. That is indeed not the case.
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Mega Ampharos: 377-445 (106.4 - 125.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Gyarados Earthquake vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Mega Ampharos: 398-468 (112.4 - 132.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Mega Ampharos: 219-258 (61.8 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Ice Fang vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Mega Ampharos: 236-278 (66.6 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Mega Ampharos: 250-296 (70.6 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mega Aerodactyl Earthquake vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Ampharos: 258-304 (72.8 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Mega Ampharos: 118-139 (33.3 - 39.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
That may have just been a mistake on my part, but I've got to say that this seems really underwhelming now. I gave it the spread from the All Out Attacker option on the damage calculator, but even 252 HP EVs doesn't get the job done. Ampharos is a bulky pivot so you can't really expect it to stay healthy enough throughout the battle to stop that late game Sharpedo sweep, or even Jolly Crawdaunt after a DD lol. Then there are +1 Feraligatr and +1 Gyarados who just outright KO it with the correct move (Ice Punch is standard on DD Gatr and Earthquake should be standard on DD+3 Attacks Gyara). It's definitely not an Aero check as most sets have EQ, and it absolutely needs to be defensive rest talk in order to be an Entei check.
The reason I wasn't thinking of the physically defensive rest talk set to begin with is because one of the biggest factors in deciding to run MAmphy in the first place is its amazing 165 base special attack. Using this set eliminates that factor and leaves you with a slow, weak, and somewhat passive wall that will do very little against offense (though it makes a nice fire/flying check). You become weaker than just about every other bulky water check you could run and are no longer a bulky water check yourself. You could barely touch CM Cune after coming in on the first CM, meaning that on top of giving up all that you did in running MAmphy as your mega, you may need to sacrifice yet another slot to ensure that you have an actual check to bulky waters. This just calls for a fairly limited team.
But hey, let's take a look at some calcs versus the defensive set anyways.
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 276-325 (71.8 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 289-341 (75.2 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Once again, being a bulky pivot and all, Ampharos is likely to take continuous chip damage, hazard damage, and be forced to rest. You cannot expect it to stay healthy enough to take damage like what is listed above. A +2 Crawdaunt is also something to worry about as you're probably playing with a more defensive playstyle when you're using this set. You also have to accept that it's not unlikely to end up having to rely on sleep talk rolls at any point in a match up against those offensive waters.
Don't get me wrong, I still think that MAmphy has only gotten better with recent drops and a decrease in ground type usage, and B- seems really low for it. However, B+ seems too high and A- should be out of the question. More specifically, I just don't like the thought of it being ranked higher than MAbsol and MAggron, who are both a much better option to run as your mega most of the time. I'm sticking with high B.
*Just a quick comment on the Infernape discussion, I also agree that its current rank seems low for how good and versatile it is. I would say either Mid A- or the bottom of A is a good spot for it.
Hello Everyone! LittleRunnerXC here bringing you a nomination for Stunfisk to be brought to C-/C rank. I really think this mon deserves to be ranked and here is why.
Stunfisk for C/C- Rank~
Okay, so you may be thinking "What are you thinking LRXC? This mon is PU what should he be doing ranked?". And I have an answer for that. Recently, I have been thinking of the viability of Stunfisk, and how it is such a unique mon and it is actually good in this metagame, even with Gyarados. For one, its typing is really cool and unique, as it has many useful resists in Steel, Rock, Flying, Poison, and Electric. This allows it to check many threatening mons' dual stabs, such as Mega-Aerodactyl, Crobat, Zapdos, and even Magneton. This is a great advantage for any team to have. Stunfisk is also the only electric type that has access to rocks which gives it another niche. However, the main reason I want to nominate Stunfisk for C rank is because it is one of the best voltturn counters, and punishes voltturn teams very well. This is because of its immunity to electric, and how it threatens mons that use u-turn because of the amazing ability static, which has a 30% chance to paralyze the opposing mon if using a contact move. This also makes Stunfisk one of the best paralysis spreaders, as it has access to static plus discharge. Though Stunfisk is not an offensive mon, it isnt a sitting duck like other defensive mons as it has a reasonable SpA stat, and has great dual stab coverage with Ground+Electric. Lastly, I would also like to mention how Stunfisk can be a mixed tank or a physical tank, and can run a couple of items to its advantage. My favorite being Passho berry Stunfisk, as it can lure Water types very well by taking them out with his STAB Discharge. This also allows it to be a pretty good Gyarados counter, as it can switch into bounce and possibly cause a paralysis, or take a waterfall and then take Gyarados out with a Discharge.
Anyhow, I hope you enjoyed reading my big paragraph about Stunfisk in the UU metagame, and would like some of your feedback. Thank you very much for reading!
Some other minor things I support is Infernape to A rank, Mega-Ampharos to B+/B, and a forgotten nom of Porygon-Z to B+.
Lastly, some little noms I think should happen. Togetic to C+, and Gourgeist to be unranked.
Not sold on Stunfisk, as while it can punish VoltTurn much better, Mega Steelix provides the same unique resists, provides rocks, and also has a good offensive typing/moves to not let it be death-fodder. But Steelix also brings Dragon, Normal, and Fairy resists, at the cost of being weak to Fire and Fighting(both of which that have decreased in usage because of Gyarados, but still a big flaw). While it may take up a mega slot in a tier with a lot of other viable megas, and Stunfisk can threaten Waters with Discharge, I still feel MegaLix is worth more than Stunfisk and outclasses it in most ways.
Also could I get an explanation for why Machamp is so high? Heracross, while proving a Fire weakness and 4x Flying weakness, I still feel it is worth using over Champ most of the time.
Also could I get an explanation for why Machamp is so high? Heracross, while proving a Fire weakness and 4x Flying weakness, I still feel it is worth using over Champ most of the time.
Hello people. Due to some recent meta changes, I believe that Mega Camerupt has received a significant increase in viability. Its unique typing along with the incredible power it possesses spells out trouble for the opposition. Below is the optimal set for this meta along with a few reasons why Camel should rise.
Camerupt-Mega @ Cameruptite
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 160 HP / 252 SpA / 96 Spe
Modest Nature
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock
- Ancient Power/ Wil-o-Wisp
Increase in Electric Type Viability
Because of the recent Gyarados drop, electric types and some grass types seem to be more common as they should. Zapdos and Rotoms hate to be matched up against Mega Camerupt because choiced sets don't want to be locked into the electric move, and Zapdos along with Rotom-H simply can't do anything back to Mega Camel. The lack of options my opponent has allows me to make a not to risky prediction or to set up entry hazards. This thing is also a decent switch into Sableye since it absorbs wilo and takes little from foul play and knock off.
More Fairies
Sableye is also being centralized quite a bit. Many people feel the need to have a fairy type for sableye. Mega Camerupt 2hkos defensive florges and of course kills Whimsicott. It switches in safely resisting fairy type moves and releases immense power onto the opposition or just set up rocks.
Core Breaker
Water, Fairy, and Steel have been a common core type for a while. Although Mega Camel cannot live a water type attack, it can certainly deal some great damage on the incoming water type wall. Sheer Force Earth Power does sickly things to the likes of Suicune, Slowking, and Swampert. The speed I put on is designed to 2hkos incoming slowkings, Suicune loses a lot of health and is forced into rest, and Swampert has no recovery...252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Earth Power vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 249-294 (62 - 73.3%).
Possible Counter Arguments:
"Wouldn't the rise of Gyarados also spell out danger for Mega Camel alone since it resists both stabs and kills in one hit?"
Although Gyarados seems like an easy switch, Ancient Power (61.6 - 72.5%) and Wil-o-wisp cripple Gyara on the switch. The switch is also fairly obvious because the opponent does not see Camel too often and only knows of its stabs. I know basing a counter argument of my opponents lack of knowledge is well... fruitless, but also see if they did have that knowledge. If they do they won't switch directly into it and if they don't then you cripple. Camel is usually in the situation where it can predict without much consequence because of its typing and natural bulk.
"You talk about switching in Florges and 2hko-ing but can't Florges set up a CM and be fine?"
This is true... lol. I mean, if your only answer to cm florges is a special attacking fire type with no recovery, then you were in trouble since team builder. I do not believe this fact takes away from the meta molding into something that is beautiful for Mega Camerupt. Simply have something for florges like Metagross or Doublade.
"Why would I waste my Mega on Camerupt when I could have a mega like Swampert and Mega Beedrill?"
This mega is the most powerful special attacking ground type in the tier. Swampert can have the electric immunity but not the special attacking power to force suicune into recovery and hp grass is nuetral to Camel. Mega Beedrill is another great fairy resist but it can't set up rocks, burn, or tank hits. Neither of the other megas can core break like Mega Camerupt can.
Final Notes:
This is one of my firsts posts so go easy on me. I feel like I did my research and I tried to leave room for little to no flaws but I am only human. On a quick note, I just want to mention that the 100 speed tier is very important for Camel. I would not recommend going any slower. Criticism is welcomed. Thanks for reading and have a nice day.
Not sold on Stunfisk, as while it can punish VoltTurn much better, Mega Steelix provides the same unique resists, provides rocks, and also has a good offensive typing/moves to not let it be death-fodder. But Steelix also brings Dragon, Normal, and Fairy resists, at the cost of being weak to Fire and Fighting(both of which that have decreased in usage because of Gyarados, but still a big flaw). While it may take up a mega slot in a tier with a lot of other viable megas, and Stunfisk can threaten Waters with Discharge, I still feel MegaLix is worth more than Stunfisk and outclasses it in most ways.
Also could I get an explanation for why Machamp is so high? Heracross, while proving a Fire weakness and 4x Flying weakness, I still feel it is worth using over Champ most of the time.
Having used Stunfisk for 2+ months and having had very good record in room tours with a Stunfisk team, I feel I am qualified to speak on it.
Stunfisk really isn't all that comparable to MegaLix, as Stunfisk is one of the best switch ins to pokemon like Cobalion and Zapdos, while MegaLix is not. Stunfisk of course doesn't take up the valuable mega slot, it has access to Discharge for water types, which MegaLix struggles with, etc. MegaLix ofc can't punish U-turn the way Stunfisk can with Static, which is one of the main reasons for using it. For example, Scarf Hydreigon commonly U-turns on Blissey but Stunfisk can come in and fish for a Static Para with little to no opportunity cost. Stunfisk rewards smart play.
Stunfisk should be compared more to Swampert as both mons counter pretty much the same things. Stunfisk has a small niche in Static and not being 4x weak to grass, but otherwise Swampert outclasses it much of the time.
Not sold on Stunfisk, as while it can punish VoltTurn much better, Mega Steelix provides the same unique resists, provides rocks, and also has a good offensive typing/moves to not let it be death-fodder. But Steelix also brings Dragon, Normal, and Fairy resists, at the cost of being weak to Fire and Fighting(both of which that have decreased in usage because of Gyarados, but still a big flaw). While it may take up a mega slot in a tier with a lot of other viable megas, and Stunfisk can threaten Waters with Discharge, I still feel MegaLix is worth more than Stunfisk and outclasses it in most ways.
Also could I get an explanation for why Machamp is so high? Heracross, while proving a Fire weakness and 4x Flying weakness, I still feel it is worth using over Champ most of the time.
Yes, Mega Steelix does provide the same set of resistances, but I feel like Mega-Steelix doesnt outclass Stunfisk in what it would be on a team for, spreading paralysis and punishing voltturn. Yes, Mega-Steelix is more physically bulky and has more offensive power, but one hits special and one hits physical, and I feel like they do different roles a lot of the time. So I can see where you are coming from, but I dont think that it means Stunfisk shouldn't be ranked
Also on Machamp, Machamp is there because No Guard Dynamic punch is such a good move, and his ability to actually take on fairies better due to having Heavy Slam. Also, Machamp is up there more because I feel it can run a guts set very well, as a lure to status such as Sableye and Arcanine.
Hello people. Due to some recent meta changes, I believe that Mega Camerupt has received a significant increase in viability. Its unique typing along with the incredible power it possesses spells out trouble for the opposition. Below is the optimal set for this meta along with a few reasons why Camel should rise.
Camerupt-Mega @ Cameruptite
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 160 HP / 252 SpA / 96 Spe
Modest Nature
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock
- Ancient Power/ Wil-o-Wisp
Increase in Electric Type Viability
Because of the recent Gyarados drop, electric types and some grass types seem to be more common as they should. Zapdos and Rotoms hate to be matched up against Mega Camerupt because choiced sets don't want to be locked into the electric move, and Zapdos along with Rotom-H simply can't do anything back to Mega Camel. The lack of options my opponent has allows me to make a not to risky prediction or to set up entry hazards. This thing is also a decent switch into Sableye since it absorbs wilo and takes little from foul play and knock off.
More Fairies
Sableye is also being centralized quite a bit. Many people feel the need to have a fairy type for sableye. Mega Camerupt 2hkos defensive florges and of course kills Whimsicott. It switches in safely resisting fairy type moves and releases immense power onto the opposition or just set up rocks.
Core Breaker
Water, Fairy, and Steel have been a common core type for a while. Although Mega Camel cannot live a water type attack, it can certainly deal some great damage on the incoming water type wall. Sheer Force Earth Power does sickly things to the likes of Suicune, Slowking, and Swampert. The speed I put on is designed to 2hkos incoming slowkings, Suicune loses a lot of health and is forced into rest, and Swampert has no recovery...252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Earth Power vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 249-294 (62 - 73.3%).
Possible Counter Arguments:
"Wouldn't the rise of Gyarados also spell out danger for Mega Camel alone since it resists both stabs and kills in one hit?"
Although Gyarados seems like an easy switch, Ancient Power (61.6 - 72.5%) and Wil-o-wisp cripple Gyara on the switch. The switch is also fairly obvious because the opponent does not see Camel too often and only knows of its stabs. I know basing a counter argument of my opponents lack of knowledge is well... fruitless, but also see if they did have that knowledge. If they do they won't switch directly into it and if they don't then you cripple. Camel is usually in the situation where it can predict without much consequence because of its typing and natural bulk.
"You talk about switching in Florges and 2hko-ing but can't Florges set up a CM and be fine?"
This is true... lol. I mean, if your only answer to cm florges is a special attacking fire type with no recovery, then you were in trouble since team builder. I do not believe this fact takes away from the meta molding into something that is beautiful for Mega Camerupt. Simply have something for florges like Metagross or Doublade.
"Why would I waste my Mega on Camerupt when I could have a mega like Swampert and Mega Beedrill?"
This mega is the most powerful special attacking ground type in the tier. Swampert can have the electric immunity but not the special attacking power to force suicune into recovery and hp grass is nuetral to Camel. Mega Beedrill is another great fairy resist but it can't set up rocks, burn, or tank hits. Neither of the other megas can core break like Mega Camerupt can.
Final Notes:
This is one of my firsts posts so go easy on me. I feel like I did my research and I tried to leave room for little to no flaws but I am only human. On a quick note, I just want to mention that the 100 speed tier is very important for Camel. I would not recommend going any slower. Criticism is welcomed. Thanks for reading and have a nice day.
I must say, I really do agree with this, he brang up some great arguments, and some great reasons at why he became better, he is definetly an underrated Mega, and even though it isnt perfect, I do agree with its raise to B-.
So, if I believe in Dunsparce, it can be viable in UU? No, not really, while it's cool to use under-the radar mons that may actually have niches, the sad truth is, not every mon is viable.
Reuniclus: A+ to A. See the previous page.
Slowking: A- to B+
Mega Ampharos: B- to B
Crawdaunt: A to A-
Seismitoad: B- to C+
Aerodactyl: C+ to B-
Mega Steelix: C+ to B-
Gastrodon: Unranked to C
Charizard: D to Unranked
Manectric: D to Unranked
Nominations:
Suicune: S to A+
Krookodile: A+ to A (this was discussed last month I think; however while it's definitely very good at its job I don't think it's as metagame-shaping as stuff like Mega Swampert, Beedrill, and Entei)
Azelf: A to A- (didn't catch this one last time but Sableye is definitely a huge hindrance to this thing, it has to give up an entire moveslot for Dazzling Gleam or use LO Nasty Plot if it wants to even think about touching this)
Mega Absol: B to B+
So, if I believe in Dunsparce, it can be viable in UU? No, not really, while it's cool to use under-the radar mons that may actually have niches, the sad truth is, not every mon is viable.
What's this supposed to mean? Don't bring up unranked pokemon to be ranked? If so, we lose a huge part of why the Viability rankings even exist. Don't bring up pokemon that are considered to be joke pokemon? If so, why is Stunfisk considered a joke pokemon when stuff like Clefairy, for example, are not?
I believe this sets a very dangerous precedent dodmen. Some clarification would be helpful.
What's this supposed to mean? Don't bring up unranked pokemon to be ranked? If so, we lose a huge part of why the Viability rankings even exist. Don't bring up pokemon that are considered to be joke pokemon? If so, why is Stunfisk considered a joke pokemon when stuff like Clefairy, for example, are not?
I believe this sets a very dangerous precedent dodmen. Some clarification would be helpful.
Well the thing is, Clefairy is at least viable due to being a Fairy type with STEALTH ROCK, along with useful utility moves like Thunder Wave, at the cost of being almost entirely outclassed by the other Fairy-types of the tier. Stunfisk is well, sort of a role compression mon, and that's it.
What's this supposed to mean? Don't bring up unranked pokemon to be ranked? If so, we lose a huge part of why the Viability rankings even exist. Don't bring up pokemon that are considered to be joke pokemon? If so, why is Stunfisk considered a joke pokemon when stuff like Clefairy, for example, are not?
I believe this sets a very dangerous precedent dodmen. Some clarification would be helpful.
What's this supposed to mean? Don't bring up unranked pokemon to be ranked? If so, we lose a huge part of why the Viability rankings even exist. Don't bring up pokemon that are considered to be joke pokemon? If so, why is Stunfisk considered a joke pokemon when stuff like Clefairy, for example, are not?
I believe this sets a very dangerous precedent dodmen. Some clarification would be helpful.
No I see where he is coming from. I guess it seems very weird to rank PU mons, and I probably should of had some replays and some calcs to show proof, now that I look at it the nomination seemed a little silly, even though I think it should be C-. He is just saying dont nominate mons that have very little niches, or nominate mons like that without some proof and stuff.
This is where I probably made a mistake nomming Stunfisk
Not really sure why Seismitoad was moved down on the VR. It hasn't really gotten worse recently whatsoever. I hope this drop wasn't based on a lack of usage considering this is a Viability Rankings.
If the reasoning is because Suicune uses Roar more recently, that just doesn't make sense since Seismitoad still counters it just as well. The only way a Cune is getting any sort damage done is if there are hazards on the field. Most hazard removers get rid of hazards pretty easily on Suicune bar Forretress(If you use Seismitoad as a cune counter w/o hazard removal you are doing something wrong). Once hazards are off the field all Suicune is doing is giving your team free Leftovers recovery and Stealth Rocks up on the field. Access to Power Up Punch(Should be on all Seismitoad if you are using Seismitoad as a Scald switch in/Cune check) gives Seismitoad a 100% answer in defeating a Suicune.
If the reasoning is that Seismitoad is outclassed by Gastrodon as a Scald switch in that is also not good reasoning. If I go back to the Suicune example, Seismitoad is gaining leftovers the entire time and does not need any sort of recovery. Also, running a Gastrodon is not a simple thing to do since it can fit on only extremely niche teams. Seismitoad at least gives you the role compression in a Stealth Rock user and Scald Switch in.
I cannot see any other possible reason why Seismitoad would be lowered. If I am missing something obvious I am sorry.
Edit: Just for reference here is the +6 Seis calc on a cune
+6 0 Atk Seismitoad Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 270-318 (66.8 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
What's this supposed to mean? Don't bring up unranked pokemon to be ranked? If so, we lose a huge part of why the Viability rankings even exist. Don't bring up pokemon that are considered to be joke pokemon? If so, why is Stunfisk considered a joke pokemon when stuff like Clefairy, for example, are not?
I believe this sets a very dangerous precedent dodmen. Some clarification would be helpful.
the thing is there has been successful teams with clefairy that have been proven to be viable in the meta. I know clefairy has seen usage in spl (i think last year) and has been featured on archived rmts like poultry pressure, which was very successful at its time. Just because it's outdated doesn't really invalidate the fact that clefairy is a viable pokemon. Although clefairy is not even a fully evolved pokemon, definitely does not make it a joke pokemon.
The niche of Stunfisk isn't even being a Gyara check, it's being a Static abuser that can block Volturn, counter flying types unlike Swampert, and reliably set up rocks.
Well the thing is, Clefairy is at least viable due to being a Fairy type with STEALTH ROCK, along with useful utility moves like Thunder Wave, at the cost of being almost entirely outclassed by the other Fairy-types of the tier. Stunfisk is well, sort of a role compression mon, and that's it.
Stunfisk is in almost he same boat lol. Both only exist as role compression mons
EDIT: to Chamaeleon's post, well I've made a successful semi-stall team involving Stunfisk, and I've won 2 room tours with that team. Not extremely impressive but it's definitely not pure theorymon
Look, I don't want to talk more about a pokemon if you don't want us to. I just want some clarification about what we can talk about and what we cannot.
The main point is don't nominate stuff that looks really bad without proof. I'm talking replays and stuff like that. Almost every single pokemon can be made to look like a viable pokemon with enough flavor in the text. If you're going to nominate something unorthodox, you should at least have a few high quality replays showing why it deserves to be ranked, as well as why it is not directly outclassed by X mon.
Not really sure why Seismitoad was moved down on the VR. It hasn't really gotten worse recently whatsoever. I hope this drop wasn't based on a lack of usage considering this is a Viability Rankings.
If the reasoning is because Suicune uses Roar more recently, that just doesn't make sense since Seismitoad still counters it just as well. The only way a Cune is getting any sort damage done is if there are hazards on the field. Most hazard removers get rid of hazards pretty easily on Suicune bar Forretress(If you use Seismitoad as a cune counter w/o hazard removal you are doing something wrong). Once hazards are off the field all Suicune is doing is giving your team free Leftovers recovery and Stealth Rocks up on the field. Access to Power Up Punch(Should be on all Seismitoad if you are using Seismitoad as a Scald switch in/Cune check) gives Seismitoad a 100% answer in defeating a Suicune.
If the reasoning is that Seismitoad is outclassed by Gastrodon as a Scald switch in that is also not good reasoning. If I go back to the Suicune example, Seismitoad is gaining leftovers the entire time and does not need any sort of recovery. Also, running a Gastrodon is not a simple thing to do since it can fit on only extremely niche teams. Seismitoad at least gives you the role compression in a Stealth Rock user and Scald Switch in.
I cannot see any other possible reason why Seismitoad would be lowered. If I am missing something obvious I am sorry.
Edit: Just for reference here is the +6 Seis calc on a cune
+6 0 Atk Seismitoad Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 270-318 (66.8 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
The main reasoning for Seismitoad dropping was actually it being outclassed by Swampert, which has higher bulk and access to Roar as attributes that set it above Seismitoad. It's true that Seismitoad can act as a Suicune counter, but it's lower bulk means that Seismitoad teams will be a bit shakier against te physical attackers that Swampert can check better (i.e. Seismitoad is 2hkod by CB Krook). The drop isn't to say Seismitoad is unusable though, it's just a niche counter to Suicune. You did bring up good points though with regard to Suicune, I could consider moving it back up.
About the Stunfisk thing, lack of proof is the main part of it, see the above few posts. Stunfisk in particular has already been brought up at least twice before in previous threads and been dismissed both times because its niche is so minor.
