reachzero approved
With a sense of stability and perhaps a state of boredom in UU, the hot topic of retesting Suspects has been brought up again and discussed on IRC and in the threads. I think a thread dedicated to this discussion would be a clean organized way of deciding what suspects, if any, deserve a retest and why. I know a lot of UU players have thoughts on this subject and I will throw my opening thoughts into the mix.
First, I feel it is important to note: On a personal level, I don't agree with retesting any UU Suspects. However, these reasons are merely that I think it's more than 50% in every suspect's case that they will be deemed broken again, and it somewhat takes away from the sense of finality on many of these Pokemon who were voted away with 2 consecutive votes and supermajorities. However, it is quite obvious that much of the community is clamoring for retesting of these suspects and, after some convincing, I think it is appropiate to at least retest some of the Pokemon, especially with the threat of Venusaur (and eventually Milotic) bans looming... In my opinion, it is better to try and let back in rather than try and eliminate more in the case of UU suspect Pokemon.
So I present the 3 Pokemon who deserve a retest more than the others. People on #Stark agreed, and Aldaron made this original list, although it is exactly what I would have picked myself:
Crobat
This is probably the Suspect everyone wants back. With a lot of new options in UU, as well as the rise of Pokemon not seen often during his peak, Crobat, a perfect Venusaur check and often times, a counter, would bring very mixed reaction, but likely positive reaction, to UU. It defeats many of the Pokemon that are being declared Suspect, or at least nominated, and is soundly checked by some already common Pokemon. However, it's Speed, Sweeping capability, and power to tear through many teams means it will need a constant check. Crobat can certainly run options to defeat its common checks such as Hidden Power Grass or Ground. However, this takes away from Crobat's natural, and in my opinion best moveset: Taunt/BB/U-Turn/Roost.
Criticism:
- Crobat's main criticism is that it can't be stopped as it can continuously give you the momentum, while keeping a healthy supply of HP and keeping it's checks and counters at bay with U-Turn, Taunt, Super Fang and STAB Brave Bird. If you haven't already seen the problem here, it's that Crobat is hammered by a 4MS syndrome, preventing him from running a valuable move. If you use the above set, you won't have Roost. And getting rid of one of these moves will hurt Crobat in some form or the other. With SR weak and solid checks, Crobat can be stopped.
Caution:
- Despite Crobat's short comings in UU, it is still very powerful. A properly played Crobat can shut down FWG cores and constantly keep the momentum on your side. Crobat can also force the opponent to use moves like Ice Beam on Milotic, allowing other Pokemon to set up, as Ice Beam and Surf is one of the best ways for Milotic to match up vs Crobat. Crobat also has enough bulk and a good enough typing that it won't be OHKOed by anything that isn't a direct counter, with the exception of Alakazam.
PorygonZ
Pz is an important Pokemon to test. Despite having many broken qualities and will likely be banned again, it was tested and banned at the time of a very broken Pokemon - Cresselia. These Pokemon were perfect matches to each other - Porygon-z's best methods of being stopped involve using Fighting-types, often scarfed or Priority Hitmonlee/Top, as well as strong physical attacks or just fast quick strikes at Pz. Cresselia absolutely loved these opportunities to set up or Thunder Wave, allowing Pz an easier sweep later. People, these Pokemon had almost perfect synergy with each other, and what is even worse, is that many teams just couldn't handle both which is why both got the boot immediately. PorygonZ, despite being extremely good and yes, likely broken, deserves a retest with the lack of spikes and cresselia backing him up.
Raikou
Almost self explanatory, Raikou was banned during periods of Froslass where Spikes were going to be on the field. If you remember correctly, Moltres was nominated and given suspect status during this period as well and look how that turned out ... Raikou, despite having plenty of Speed and strong Special movebase/stats, still has hard counters and methods of being stopped. A Suspect test that lacks Spikes's simplicity and commoness would certainly be beneficial to seeing if Raikou truly deserved the boot.
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Why other Pokemon deserve the boot:
Honchkrow: This Pokemon's strength and ability made it very deadly. It has 2 immunities and extremely strong attack stats that let it almost always get in a ko. Honchkrow in the current metagame could pair up with any suspect and truly dominate.
Shaymin: Despite likely going to OU soon, it is important to note that Shaymin would not be retested anyway - it is incredibly powerful and has amazing defenses and a typing that works. Pure Grass's weaknesses just aren't bad enough to keep Shaymin from spamming Seed Flare and dominating.
Froslass: Despite many questions of it being actually broken, Spikes combined with any other Suspect will likely make both broken again.
Gallade: Plays almost exactly like Lucario, but then has the defenses to actually take a hit and keep dominating. Clearly broken to me.
Yanmega: Yanmega was simply the strongest Pokemon ever in UU, and it will surely rip holes through teams again, allowing other suspects or other general Pokemon like Zam to clean up.
Cresselia: Most evident perhaps - This Pokemon can take any hit and completely dominate the opposing Pokemon. The fact that in 2 turns it can easily nab two calm minds and become a great sweeper is amazing, not to mention it provides fantastic synergy with almost any suspect.
Staraptor: Sub/Roost/BB/CC is just an incredible set that can rarely be stopped. Add in CB and ScarfRaptor, all of which can be just as viable, and not many Pokemon can actually take Raptor down. However, it does have some counters such as Rotom and Donphan with Head Smash, so it will be interesting to debate.
Abomasnow: I never actually had much trouble with Hail but a lot of other uses can definitely shed more light on the subject. To be honest, Aboma's stats, usable movepool, and ability to force a majority of the threats in UU is enough for me, along with instant-hail.
With a sense of stability and perhaps a state of boredom in UU, the hot topic of retesting Suspects has been brought up again and discussed on IRC and in the threads. I think a thread dedicated to this discussion would be a clean organized way of deciding what suspects, if any, deserve a retest and why. I know a lot of UU players have thoughts on this subject and I will throw my opening thoughts into the mix.
First, I feel it is important to note: On a personal level, I don't agree with retesting any UU Suspects. However, these reasons are merely that I think it's more than 50% in every suspect's case that they will be deemed broken again, and it somewhat takes away from the sense of finality on many of these Pokemon who were voted away with 2 consecutive votes and supermajorities. However, it is quite obvious that much of the community is clamoring for retesting of these suspects and, after some convincing, I think it is appropiate to at least retest some of the Pokemon, especially with the threat of Venusaur (and eventually Milotic) bans looming... In my opinion, it is better to try and let back in rather than try and eliminate more in the case of UU suspect Pokemon.
So I present the 3 Pokemon who deserve a retest more than the others. People on #Stark agreed, and Aldaron made this original list, although it is exactly what I would have picked myself:
Crobat
This is probably the Suspect everyone wants back. With a lot of new options in UU, as well as the rise of Pokemon not seen often during his peak, Crobat, a perfect Venusaur check and often times, a counter, would bring very mixed reaction, but likely positive reaction, to UU. It defeats many of the Pokemon that are being declared Suspect, or at least nominated, and is soundly checked by some already common Pokemon. However, it's Speed, Sweeping capability, and power to tear through many teams means it will need a constant check. Crobat can certainly run options to defeat its common checks such as Hidden Power Grass or Ground. However, this takes away from Crobat's natural, and in my opinion best moveset: Taunt/BB/U-Turn/Roost.
Criticism:
- Crobat's main criticism is that it can't be stopped as it can continuously give you the momentum, while keeping a healthy supply of HP and keeping it's checks and counters at bay with U-Turn, Taunt, Super Fang and STAB Brave Bird. If you haven't already seen the problem here, it's that Crobat is hammered by a 4MS syndrome, preventing him from running a valuable move. If you use the above set, you won't have Roost. And getting rid of one of these moves will hurt Crobat in some form or the other. With SR weak and solid checks, Crobat can be stopped.
Caution:
- Despite Crobat's short comings in UU, it is still very powerful. A properly played Crobat can shut down FWG cores and constantly keep the momentum on your side. Crobat can also force the opponent to use moves like Ice Beam on Milotic, allowing other Pokemon to set up, as Ice Beam and Surf is one of the best ways for Milotic to match up vs Crobat. Crobat also has enough bulk and a good enough typing that it won't be OHKOed by anything that isn't a direct counter, with the exception of Alakazam.
PorygonZ
Pz is an important Pokemon to test. Despite having many broken qualities and will likely be banned again, it was tested and banned at the time of a very broken Pokemon - Cresselia. These Pokemon were perfect matches to each other - Porygon-z's best methods of being stopped involve using Fighting-types, often scarfed or Priority Hitmonlee/Top, as well as strong physical attacks or just fast quick strikes at Pz. Cresselia absolutely loved these opportunities to set up or Thunder Wave, allowing Pz an easier sweep later. People, these Pokemon had almost perfect synergy with each other, and what is even worse, is that many teams just couldn't handle both which is why both got the boot immediately. PorygonZ, despite being extremely good and yes, likely broken, deserves a retest with the lack of spikes and cresselia backing him up.
Raikou
Almost self explanatory, Raikou was banned during periods of Froslass where Spikes were going to be on the field. If you remember correctly, Moltres was nominated and given suspect status during this period as well and look how that turned out ... Raikou, despite having plenty of Speed and strong Special movebase/stats, still has hard counters and methods of being stopped. A Suspect test that lacks Spikes's simplicity and commoness would certainly be beneficial to seeing if Raikou truly deserved the boot.
---
Why other Pokemon deserve the boot:
Honchkrow: This Pokemon's strength and ability made it very deadly. It has 2 immunities and extremely strong attack stats that let it almost always get in a ko. Honchkrow in the current metagame could pair up with any suspect and truly dominate.
Shaymin: Despite likely going to OU soon, it is important to note that Shaymin would not be retested anyway - it is incredibly powerful and has amazing defenses and a typing that works. Pure Grass's weaknesses just aren't bad enough to keep Shaymin from spamming Seed Flare and dominating.
Froslass: Despite many questions of it being actually broken, Spikes combined with any other Suspect will likely make both broken again.
Gallade: Plays almost exactly like Lucario, but then has the defenses to actually take a hit and keep dominating. Clearly broken to me.
Yanmega: Yanmega was simply the strongest Pokemon ever in UU, and it will surely rip holes through teams again, allowing other suspects or other general Pokemon like Zam to clean up.
Cresselia: Most evident perhaps - This Pokemon can take any hit and completely dominate the opposing Pokemon. The fact that in 2 turns it can easily nab two calm minds and become a great sweeper is amazing, not to mention it provides fantastic synergy with almost any suspect.
Staraptor: Sub/Roost/BB/CC is just an incredible set that can rarely be stopped. Add in CB and ScarfRaptor, all of which can be just as viable, and not many Pokemon can actually take Raptor down. However, it does have some counters such as Rotom and Donphan with Head Smash, so it will be interesting to debate.
Abomasnow: I never actually had much trouble with Hail but a lot of other uses can definitely shed more light on the subject. To be honest, Aboma's stats, usable movepool, and ability to force a majority of the threats in UU is enough for me, along with instant-hail.