Yeah, it's pretty good damage, but there's some issues with this. For one, it's making the rather large assumption that you have rocks up against stall. More importantly, if you lock yourself into Thunder Punch, your opponent will just switch out of Pex and into Dugtrio and suddenly your Infernape is gone and you're down a mon. The only thing you've accomplished is some 20% chip on Toxapex after regenerator. CB Infernape is not good against stall. The absolute best case scenario is that it takes down one mon and then is swiftly revenged by Dugtrio.252 Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 140-166 (46 - 54.6%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery.
This is an insane amount of damage, which also proves that CB Nape has a good stall match up, but that's not the point right now. The point is, Infernape can run a bunch of different coverage moves to help it's match up against certain Pokemon. Furthermore, Infernape has access to U-Turn, which allows it to pivot out on switch out on counters such Zygarde and Greninja.
Versatility /=/ good. Look at Smeargle or Hydreigon. Hell, look at Mew prior to the release of Mega Medicham. It's one of the most versatile mons period, but before the meta shifted in its favor it was wallowing in B-.The main idea here is that Infernape is very versatile, and with that very unpredictable. Some Pokemon you think would beat it may not beat it at all, which shakes up the meta quite a bit. That is why I think Infernape should be in B-, rather than C+, because it does in fact have a niche on some teams.
The problem with any Infernape set other than Scarf is how susceptible it is to Dugtrio. At least Scarf is capable of outpacing Duggy and OHKOing with nearly any of its main STABs, unless it runs in to Scarf Duggy which is a rare set and not as common as Sash or Tech Rage.I agree that Scarf is it's most viable set, but I think Choice Band is a great way of handling bulkier teams.
After this first hit, if Duggy is still alive, you're now forced to double out to prevent yourself being being trapped if you still want your Infernape for Chansey. Stall in this current metagame simply isn't kind to nape right now as long as Dugtrio has anything to say about it.252 Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 140-166 (46 - 54.6%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery.
No one even talked about bouncing hazards in the last page and this is pretty much a strawman argument."Its job as a magic bouncer"
P sure that any mon with magic bounce would at least like to use it, which is what I said.
You have a fair argument, I was mostly talking about the Defog set though, as it was the one I tested the most, and both sets do indeed loose to all Pokemon I mentioned 1v1 if Latias still doesn't have a Calm Mind Up. But I totally get your point though, I will test out the Stored Power Set a bit more, I thought I had enough knowledge of Latias to make a post here but apparently I don't, my bad. As for Diancie, Duggy wasn't really what's making me support a Diancie rise, it's more of a bonus, because the Diancie player obviously can't rely on Def boosts with Diamond Storm to beat Duggy, my main point was still about the offensive presence it applies and the switches it forces. But thanks for the comment though, it's always nice to take a look at some other points of view. As for your thoughts, I completely back up Bulu staying in A, I didn't have time to talk about it in my original post but it was a point I was wanting to cover.Exploudit
your mega latias argument was poor. greninja isn't even an answer to mega latias because it easily takes dark pulse after a calm mind and destroys it with thunderbolt. non-fairium z magearna loses to cm latias 1v1 assuming no critical hits and fairium z variants lose all the time if it switches in as mega latias calm minds. gengar and mega diancie have to win multiple ties if they want to scratch mega latias, and tapu lele has to be specs to pose a threat. point is mega latias is a frightening sweeper so i don't know where you are getting this "hard to set up the stage for it" argument from. i have seen mega latias just win from turn 5, and it can run surf > thunderbolt to nail heatran and tyranitar instead of greninja and mantine.
i disagree with diancie rising because of dugtrio. the diamond storm +2 argument is not a thing since in a real game diancie has to take damage from seismic toss, knock off, heat waves, etc...before dugtrio comes in to kill it. if you don't let it take damage then diancie won't be doing anything against stall outside of forcing chansey in. inability to touch certain pokemon without the right coverage move is problematic and its below average defenses make it easy to pick off with pokemon such as tapu koko and mega lopunny. these are not really the traits of a defining metagame threats.
on the slate / other people's opinions:
- i been saying tapu koko should rise. no other pokemon gives you as much initiative as tapu koko. z-wild charge/taunt/roost/u-turn completely shits on stall and it is one of the best momentum grabbers in the game. specs is rising in usage and it is a very hard threat to manage. really you only see these sets but other sets like tapunium z are rising because people are straying away from tangrowth and going to other measures such as mega venusaur and making ballsy plays with ground-types.
- tapu bulu should stay where it is. grassy terrain + being an offensive ash greninja check is a blessing. the main thing is tapu bulu adapts. we are seeing mega scizor rising in usage so fightinium z is now back in the cut. trick room and stall? no problem. life orb subsd is seeing usage now. i have seen zen bulu a ton again with venusaur all over the place.
- the metagame is way too fucking bulky for scarf keldeo to strive. the mu where keldeo is supposed to strive? yea you know it doesn't even beat common ho playstyles in trick room and birdspam? specs is cool, but toxapex is all over the place along with shit like venusaur and latios coming back. also all the new mega releases are against specs keldeo, meaning it will never be a threat it is on paper. also fuck waterium z keldeo. that is no set.
tigers jaw brought volcarona up again, and i can see where he is coming from. you cannot be getting walled by toxapex which forces psychium z on most sets, but at the same time you have to notice that 100+ scarfers have dropped a ton in usage since people are realizing they aren't that threatening. i lean towards A because i can never see myself using bugz atm cuz thapex. it's in an awkward spot right now.
Few things:You have a fair argument, I was mostly talking about the Defog set though, as it was the one I tested the most, and both sets do indeed loose to all Pokemon I mentioned 1v1 if Latias still doesn't have a Calm Mind Up. But I totally get your point though, I will test out the Stored Power Set a bit more, I thought I had enough knowledge of Latias to make a post here but apparently I don't, my bad. As for Diancie, Duggy wasn't really what's making me support a Diancie rise, it's more of a bonus, because the Diancie player obviously can't rely on Def boosts with Diamond Storm to beat Duggy, my main point was still about the offensive presence it applies and the switches it forces. But thanks for the comment though, it's always nice to take a look at some other points of view. As for your thoughts, I completely back up Bulu staying in A, I didn't have time to talk about it in my original post but it was a point I was wanting to cover.
While the argument is fair, I don't quite agree with this nom. Specifically the point about having no reason to run it over it's Mega. I think it's kind of the 'Zard X vs Zard Y' syndrome (with Zard Y being one of our meta's best iirc, and making the off Zard X all the more of a surprise), where you can't just presume it's one or the other, and you end up in 50/50s for it. CounterZam and Mega Alakazam is that same 50/50, in basically all the same ways except the type change. Picture this:
Alakazam for C+ or lower
There is no reason to use normal Alakazam over its mega form other than the obviously-telegraphed Sash Counter set, which lost its appeal a long time ago. Unlike Mega Alakazam, it's outpaced by both Grens and Tapu Koko, and just struggles verses bulky teams due to it being forced to run Focus Sash for its Counter set, which is its only "viable" set in this meta. While it can put physical set up sweepers like Lando, Mega Tar and Zygarde in check (it'll lose to Sub variants, tho), it can't stop any of the special attacking sweepers like SG Magearna and Volcarona unless it runs Thunder Wave, but along with Counter, that'll leave it with only two attacking moves and thus it'll be walled harder than before. It's borderline useless against bulky offense, balance, or stall unless they have hard hitting-physical attackers or set up sweepers. Duggy on stall can just Reversal turn 1 to break its Sash and then Zam's strategy is completely ruined unless it wins the speed tie.
It's pretty obvious that it's not Mega Alakazam when you run Alakazam alongside other Mega's like Charizard, Scizor (reg sciz is lolbad in SM OU), Mawile, Pinsir, Diancie, Medicham, Sableye, Gallade, etc. With another mega like T-Tar or Gyarados, however, it's admittedly a different story as their normal forms are still good in the meta, so the "surprise" really only works with a select few other mega Pokemon, not the whole OU roster of them.While the argument is fair, I don't quite agree with this nom. Specifically the point about having no reason to run it over it's Mega. I think it's kind of the 'Zard X vs Zard Y' syndrome (with Zard Y being one of our meta's best iirc, and making the off Zard X all the more of a surprise), where you can't just presume it's one or the other, and you end up in 50/50s for it. CounterZam and Mega Alakazam is that same 50/50, in basically all the same ways except the type change. Picture this:
Say I have a Scarf Lando-T out in front of Zam: in a lot of cases - one would probably just Click EQ, and there's a dead Alakazam for you. However, the threat of this set would make that more unrealistic, and would put Lando at a risk of dying itself. Similarly, an attempted prediction of the Counter (if applicable) could lead to you getting blasted by a Mega Evolution, and ending up in a fairly bad position from there. This is similar to when you have an unevolved Charizard in front of you, and you're trying to rack your mind whether it would be X or Y mega, otherwise you potentially lose a mon, or something like whether an opposing Gyarados is Flyinium DD or Mega DD, so stuff like Gengar can't just default to Shadow Ball spam vs you or you potentially lose the game.
With this - I do think SashZam frees up a bit of space in teambuilding, in this way. It allows for another mega such as Zard Y / Gyarados / Tyranitar etc., while keeping that animosity to an extent. All 4 have their uses in and out of their Mega forms (except for Zard, but the XY coin toss patches that up), which hearkens back to the 50/50s a prospect like this can force. When you said it was useless vs BO/Balance... well - couldn't the threat of Mega Alakazam provoke plays from those playstyles, that allows CounterSash to do work? That's how this set functions in my mind.
Oh, and the Dugtrio example? I'd say that's another example of said 50/50 (speed tie not withstanding) and mind games. It's a 4 way street:
This might be forgone is Dugtrio is running Sucker Punch, but A) A lot of Dugtrios' have dropped that (if I'm not mistaken) for Screech/Toxic, and B) Zam can force just as many mindgames with it (if they know Duggy has it ofc).
- Duggy EQs; Zam Psychics - both down to sashes, speed tie plays out.
- Duggy EQs; Zam Counters - both down to sashes, speed tie plays out.
- Duggy Reversals: Zam Counters - speed tie (again)
- Duggy Reversals: Zam Psychics - speed tie (again)
I might have been able to word this better, but it's the best way I can put the thought down from my head. So:
View attachment 87151 Drop: Disagree
BTW I've never understood the notion that SashZam HAS to be 3atk Counter. Running Sash means you hit about as hard as a stale bread bun anyway, so those last 2 slots can go to utility such as TWave/Disable/Taunt etc.. Idk, it's just how I've thought of it, could be wrong :j.
Dude, did you even read my post?Few things:
Yeah, it loses to the mons you mentioned, but it's not as cut and dry as you make it out to be. Reflect Type and Calm Mind both change quite a few of those match ups to be in Latias's favor - most notably Tapu Lele and Koko, and Koko and Magearna both can't get through it at all if they don't run a fairy move, which is fairly common for both.
Dugtrio definitely shouldn't be what's making you support a Diancie rise and it's definitely not a bonus to Diancie's viability.
Bulu is currently in A+, not A.
I completely agree with you on a Dragonite rise. While there is a lot in the meta that threatens it, multiscale helps a lot and it is an absolute monster that hits like a freight train after a dragon dance or two. It is very good on the birdspam team and i have had great success with it in the metagame.Disclaimer before I get to the rest of the post: This post is mostly about things that i have seen from olt as my evidence as why i think these changes should happen
Mega Latias: B+ --> A-
This thing saw a bunch of usage in olt. Its calm mind sets are amazing, but so are its reflect type sets to make ttar less of a check. It also has roost three attacks and roost defog two attacks sets that are amazing. It is also a huge counter to zard y duggy teams without ttar, and if they don't have ttar lati can just set up in their face and win. Also, with toxapex and other fat things that lati can set up on being so prevalent like mew, it only makes mega lati better. It is also in this team which was arguably the most popular team in this cycle of olt:
http://pokepast.es/5d3e7c37a87e939c
Clefable: A --> A+
This one i can see if it doesn't go through, but I do believe clefable does deserve a spot in A+. For a while now, but especially olt, this has been one of the most splashable mons on literally any team. With balance being as good as it is, being a great bulky stealth rocker or/and a bulky calm mind sweeper is fantastic. It can also run knock off, thunder wave, and even toxic to help its matchup against other teams. In olt it saw a bunch of usage, specifically on these teams: http://pokepast.es/5fc205c0be960e50 http://pokepast.es/5d3e7c37a87e939c and the semi stall team used in olt a lot with the ditto, chansey, skarmory, zygarde, and medicham. And, it is also, as always, amazing on every single stall which is one of the best playstyles this gen. Overall, clefable is a monster.
Mega Scizor: A- --> A
Obviously, mega scizor was amazing early on in the gen with megagross being broken, but after it was banned scizor dropped down a lot in usage and viability. The SD roost knock off bullet punch set is amazing right now, as it invalidates aurora veil, and has knock off to pressure celesteela and toxapex so that they aren't super reliable switches/if needed scizor can risk scald burns vs toxapex and set up right in its face if it for some reason doesn't have haze. It also has bulky defog sets to be a super reliable defogger, especially on the double defog balance with mantine, tapu lele, weavile etc. It also saw great usage in this team during olt: http://pokepast.es/5fc205c0be960e50 as well as the other one used in olt with kyurem black, weavile, heatran, tapu fini, and landorus.
Mega Venusaur: A- --> A
Mega Venusaur was one of the very most used pokemon in olt this cycle, and probably a top 3 most used mega for olt as well. Being a soft check for ash gren before it evolves, a check for zygarde, a dugtrio answer, tapu bulu check, mew check, toxapex check, mega diancie check, ferrothorn check most of the time, a check to non cm stored power clef sometimes, etc. It is just such a great defensive mon and pairs greatly with celesteela and toxapex, two of the other most popular mons right now. It was used in teams a bunch in olt like balances with celesteela, toxapex, reunuclis, etc. This hit a huge spike up in popularity and for good reason.
Zapdos: A- --> A
I think this one is long overdue. Zapdos fits on so many teams with so many different sets and so many utilizations. It is amazing on balance, it is a great celesteela answer, it is really good against stall, it has the offensive agility set, it has roost three attacks, it has roost defog two attacks, and even if you want you could possibly run u turn or volt switch to catch people off guard and get momentum. It is also amazing on rain with agility and z move. It was also used in this team that was very popular in olt http://pokepast.es/5fc205c0be960e50
Mega Lopunny: B+ --> A- (possibly even A)
Lopunny got a lot of usage in olt and world cup. It has a lot of variety to fill a bunch of different roles. It can run ice punch, return and hjk are a given, power up punch, fake out, quick attack, toxic, copycat for spikes, tspikes, rocks, webs, and even healing wish to help a teammate. It is a great cleaner with amazing speed, it can be a sweeper when things are weakened, it can be amazing on hyper offense or bulky offense with spikes support which is very easy to fit this gen with gren, ferrothorn, skarmory, etc. It was also used in the team during olt with zygarde, clefable, magearna, lando-t, and gren.
Dragonite: B- --> B
I love dragonite, so I might be biased, but i think with the great popularity of the birdspam team, this is a valid rise. There really is not too much to say about this. Dragonite is on a really super popular team, and he's kind of just a set up and sweep pokemon. The problem with dragonite is that it actually does suffer from 4mss. If it had more than four moves, it could literally beat every pokemon after one or two dragon dances, but it can't do that because it doesn't have enough moves. But, it still can choose what pokemon it wants to counter essentially, making it a great addition to teams that are weak to a certain pokemon. It also does have a great bulky dragon dance roost set with leftovers, a choice band set, and even a really niche expert belt special attacking set which isn't really known or used but it can be good for taking on landorus', tangrowths, magearna, etc.
Gliscor: C -->B-
Gliscor saw virtually no usage this whole gen, until this cycle of olt, where it really shined. It was used on the mega latias team that I showed earlier but if you didn't wanna see that, the team is right here http://pokepast.es/5d3e7c37a87e939c it really shines against stall where it can set up on virtually anything on stall and win, due to the fact that it can't get statused or trapped by dugtrio, and weavile isn't on stall at all anymore. It is also really good at annoying bulky teams, so overall I think it is well deserving of a rise.
Tapu Koko: A --> A+
Everyone explained why this should move up and I just wanna say that I agree with everything that everybody else said for why this should rise.