Togekiss (Update)

[cim]

Lots of stuff to address....

Firstly, Chris:


I actually disagree. Firstly, Timid does matter. Outspeeding Zapdos is actually a pretty cool thing as after Stealth Rock damage and a Nasty Plot boosted Fire Blast, you are easily OHKOing it.

Except Zapdos can still outspeed you, so at best it's just "this will be useful until Zapdos changes its EV spread".

Not only does it allow you to hit so much harder in general, but it also allows Togekiss to deal hefty damage even before a Nasty Plot boost,

It actually hits pretty hard with Leftovers too.

I guess my concerns now are (1) why does the LO set have Roost on it? and (2) Can either you or I write up the "old school" modest NP set? If you make LO NP have 3 attacks, then it beats all its counters, so debating whether or not Fire Blast adds more counters than it removes becomes moot. If there's a Leftovers NP set right under it, people can still check out both sets and decide for themselves "bulk or kicking more ass?". I can even do the writeup for you. :)

 

[Snorlaxe]

why does the LO set have Roost on it?

I would guess it's for the same reason that Life Orb Zapdos and Honchkrow use Roost, while Life Orb Celebi and Latias use Recover; instant recovery is (almost) always too good to pass up. Roost allows Togekiss to at least maintain some of its bulkiness...it's like a "best of both worlds" thing.

Can either you or I write up the "old school" modest NP set? If you make LO NP have 3 attacks, then it beats all its counters, so debating whether or not Fire Blast adds more counters than it removes becomes moot. If there's a Leftovers NP set right under it, people can still check out both sets and decide for themselves "bulk or kicking more ass?". I can even do the writeup for you. :)

This is actually a really, really good idea, and I like it a lot. However, I've really been pressed for time lately, and even though my summer vacation started today, I'm going to California and won't be too active for the next week or so. If you could write it for me, that would seriously be wonderful. ^_^ You sound like you really know what you're talking about with Togekiss in general (particularly NPKiss, it seems!) so it shouldn't be too hard for you ;)

Thanks a bunch CIM :)

 

[RaikouLover]

Yeah I would support that change wholeheartedly. Mainly because they definately do play differently. The Life Orb was listed as a secondary item option mainly because the whole set was a compromise but I think it will warrant two sets. Using Togekiss' bulk to set up is one approach, and just the kick ass take names approach. I'm about to get started on my other analysis so I can help CIM break it up by doing the more offensive version.

Realistically, there can be a third approach because even when using Life Orb you have some variation where you can run Roost or just go all out.

 

[Snorlaxe]

Yeah I would support that change wholeheartedly. Mainly because they definately do play differently. The Life Orb was listed as a secondary item option mainly because the whole set was a compromise but I think it will warrant two sets. Using Togekiss' bulk to set up is one approach, and just the kick ass take names approach. I'm about to get started on my other analysis so I can help CIM break it up by doing the more offensive version.

Realistically, there can be a third approach because even when using Life Orb you have some variation where you can run Roost or just go all out

Essentially, it's all relative to how you want to play NPKiss, and to what kind of a player you are in general. More offensive players will want to use Life Orb + 3 attacks "kill everything and then die" NPKiss, while others will use the traditional, defensive, Lefties-wielding one. While I think that having three NPKiss analyses would be a little extreme, two seems good. I'll get to work soon on focusing the current set on being all out offensive; I'm thinking a 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe spread will do?

 

[macle]

[Team Options]
<p>One of Togekiss’ biggest problems is its weakness to Stealth Rock. For a bulky, defensive Pokemon like Togekiss, losing a fourth of its health upon switching in is a huge handicap. For these reasons, Rapid Spin support can be very helpful in maintaining Togekiss’ health. Life Orb Rapid Spin Starmie makes a great offensive partner for Togekiss, capable of switching in on many Pokemon who could potentially threaten Togekiss, and proceeding to Spin away Stealth Rock. Starmie’s powerful STAB attacks also help wear down the opposing team to the point where Togekiss can potentially sweep. For more defensive Togekiss, Forretress makes a better partner, capable of not only using Rapid Spin, but also setting up Spikes, which is useful for reasons mentioned in the above paragraph.</p>

 

[cim]

No problem! I'll get right on making "Old School NP". I know less about Life Orb than either of you probably, so I'd rather someone else do that, but it looks like RL can. Personally I think NP / Air Slash / Fire Blast / Aura Sphere or Roost would make sense for a set. Ahile the two options are pretty different, it's nothing that can't be explained in AC.

 

[RaikouLover]

I'm thinking a 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe spread will do?

Yes. The main reason I'm thinking different is because a 3 attack Life Orb set certainly makes for a good sweeper, but maybe I'm getting complicated with it. In my opinion, Life Orb is the most versatile item on pokemon that get instant recovery. For example, here is the Togekiss I use:

Togekiss (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 192 HP/236 Spd/80 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Air Slash
- Fire Blast / Aura Sphere
- Nasty Plot
- Roost
---

After a Nasty Plot, Fire Blast does a minimum of 87.3% to 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom, and 80% minimum to 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos. Roost means you can stay around longer because this EV spread has 359 HP / 226 Def / 266 SpD which is by no means frail. In comparison, all out attacking has 311 HP and no Roost. Life Orb is so versatile because it only kicks in when you have to attack so you can Roost on death fodder then pound an incoming Steel with Fire Blast if you need to.

 

[cim]

[SET]
name: Old School Plot Sweeper
move 1: Nasty Plot
move 2: Air Slash
move 3: Aura Sphere / Heal Bell
move 4: Roost
item: Leftovers
ability: Serene Grace
nature: Modest
evs: 96 HP / 192 SpA / 220 Spe
---

<p>This Togekiss takes a more conventional route toward sweeping, taking advantage of its massive Special Attack, good defenses, and access to Roost in order to sweep the opponent. With a Modest nature, a boosted Air Slash is going to do a lot more damage, OHKOing Scizor after Stealth Rock, while scoring 2-3HKOs even on Pokemon that resist it. Combining Air Slash's flinch rate with bulk allowing him to take a hit or two from the likes of Rotom-A, and you'll find that Togekiss has no problem sweeping teams that are sufficiently weakened. Unlike most Nasty Plot sweepers, Togekiss has Roost and the bulk needed to take down opponents without worrying about taking random attacks, even weaker super effective hits.</p>

<p>Aura Sphere is for Tyranitar, whom threatens an OHKO with Stone Edge. Aura Sphere OHKOs right back after a Nasty Plot, while also providing useful extra damage against Blissey, Metagross, Heatran, and other Flying resistances. While Air Slash is often the primary attack against these foes, Aura Sphere lets you finish off these Pokemon at higher percentages. Heal Bell is extremely useful against stall teams, allowing Togekiss to switch in and absorb status attacks, while winning against even Toxic Blissey 1-on-1 in tandem with Roost.</p>

[Additional Comments]
<p>Substitute is an option if you use Aura Sphere. Using it on the switch allows you to scout out threats like Scarf Tyranitar and Pokemon with status moves. You won't beat Seismic Toss / Toxic Blissey with it, but it may be useful to you in order to provide some rudimentary status prevention. Safeguard can do effectively the same job as Heal Bell, but instead of healing the rest of the team, it provides a safety net if Togekiss is forced to switch out, with the additional benefit of having more PP. The drawback is that it does not allow Togekiss to switch into status attacks. Lum Berry is an option that lets you beat Blissey 60% of the time. If you Plot on the switch, and then Plot again as it statuses you, a 2HKO is possible by using Air Slash, hoping for a flinch, followed by Aura Sphere.</p>

<p>The EV spread ensures an OHKO on Scizor with a +2 Air Slash after Stealth Rock. Scizor's CB Bullet Punch only does 50-59%, preventing him from stopping Togekiss's sweep. If Scizor is not a concern, investing more in HP is recommended. Similarly, 220 Speed EVs are used to outrun Modest Heatran, and if you don't care about Heatran you can lower that number to boost HP even further. If you invest at least 192 EVs in HP, Vaporeon will never 2HKO with Ice Beam even after Stealth Rock.</p>

<p>Togekiss's main concerns are Rotom-A and Zapdos. While this set does a little better against them, they are both still pretty big threats to Togekiss and need to be dealt with beforehand. Pursuit is useful support as it gets rid of Rotom while allowing Togekiss's team to use a Rapid Spinner to clear away Stealth Rock. Heracross is probably the best choice since it isn't bothered by Will-o-wisp, but Metagross, Tyranitar, and Snorlax all work as well. With Rotom out of the way, Rapid Spin support from Starmie, Forretress, or Tentacruel helps tremendously as without Stealth Rock, Togekiss can switch in and out repeatedly at will, giving Togekiss a good chance against Zapdos. Stealth Rock support will hurt Zapdos enough to make it unable to repeatedly switch into play. If you pack Tyranitar for Rotom, he also makes a great Zapdos check, boasting high Special Defense and STAB SE Rock attacks. </p>

<p>Paralysis support helps tremendously as Togekiss isn't the fastest sweeper in the game. Pokemon like Jirachi, Gyarados, and Celebi can all provide useful Paralysis support, as a slower opposing team is vulnerable to Air Slash flinches. Jirachi in particular is nice as it lures out Starmie, whom you can Pursuit. </p>

 

[jumpluff]

As has been mentioned, Heal Bell is a great option on the NP sweeper. Helps it a lot against stall. I'd like to see it mentioned in the set comments at the very least.

 

[RaikouLover]

Heal Bell should be slashed with Aura Sphere instead of Roost. You don't need Aura Sphere with Heal Bell, since you can easily get to +6 on Blissey not fearing poison or paralysis.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

Ya, on a Togekiss with Heal Bell, you really need Roost.

Suggest this spread for a Nasty Plot, Heal Bell, Air Slash, Roost set:

Leftovers
Timid Nature
228 HP/44 SpD/236 Spe

228 HP is for leftovers, 236 Speed and a +nature allows you to out-speed neutral natured base 90s, and the rest is poured into Special Defense in order to take special hits even better. For example, Rapid Spin Starmie's Thunderbolt can only 3HKO Togekiss 12% of the time w/leftovers (if Togekiss is at full health), allowing Togekiss to set up in its face.

It's been performing rather well lately, as I have been seeing less and less ScarfTars.

 

[SJCrew]

If it doesn't deserve a slash in any of the movesets, Ominous Wind needs to at least be somewhere in the analysis. Togekiss has the perfect typing, ability, and stat distribution to actually pull it off, not to mention it's a viable form of offense vs. Rotom-A, one of Togekiss's worst enemies.

 

[cim]

If it doesn't deserve a slash in any of the movesets, Ominous Wind needs to at least be somewhere in the analysis. Togekiss has the perfect typing, ability, and stat distribution to actually pull it off, not to mention it's a viable form of offense vs. Rotom-A, one of Togekiss's worst enemies.

except you only have something like a 50% chance to pull it off and you need shadow ball for the KO

once i ran silver wind / ominous wind / sub / bp on a chain team just for fun though!

fixed heal bell will write this tomorrow (why not safeguard btw, it lasts 5 turns and doesn't have only 8 pp)

 

[jumpluff]

Safeguard doesn't allow it to come in on status. Heal Bell also heals the team, which is a huge help vs. stall.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

Also, Togekiss is often too slow to prevent status with Safeguard.

 

[cim]

Also, Togekiss is often too slow to prevent status with Safeguard.

Name a Pokemon with higher than 80 base Speed that maxes it that frequently uses status moves.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Jirachi. SubTWave is getting fairly popular.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

Name a Pokemon with higher than 80 base Speed that maxes it that frequently uses status moves.

Gliscor and Jirachi are a couple of Pokemon that do. I recently faced a Starmie with Thunder Wave, and heal bell came in handy.

I don't think I ever used up all 8 PP of Heal Bell. I think it came down to like 2 PP or so when Togekiss just refused to flinch Blissey, but that's about it.

Safeguard deserves a mention, but it's generally inferior to Heal Bell. Heal Bell helps out the team much more, and a Pokemon with 80 Base Speed isn't really out there to "sweep".

 

[Snorlaxe]

Uh

After I went on vacation, this turned into like 10 posts back and forth at each other, so I'll mainly just address the key concepts.

jumpluff -- Yeah, Heal Bell is pretty nice on Togekiss, particularly defensive Nasty Plot Togekiss. I'm going to talk with CIM and see if he's done any further stuff with defensive NPKiss, cause if not, I'm ready to write it up, and will mention Heal Bell in place of Aura Sphere (as Heal Bell + Roost = yesss). The only problem with that is it leaves you with Air Slash as your only attacking option, and thus walled by many Pokemon; this is why Heal Bell is going to be in AC.

SJCrew -- I'll mention Ominous Wind in Optional Changes (if it's not there already; too lazy to check), thanks.

macle -- thanks, fixed that ^_^

Also, some people seem to have gotten the notion that there should be/will be 3 NP Togekiss sets, which I don't think is neccessary. My plans are the defensive NP set that CIM is working on, plus the Nasty Plot + 3 attacks LO set that I'm working on (with Roost in AC). After I make these changes and get some GP checks, then I'll look towards uploading this.

 

[RaikouLover]

The only problem with that is it leaves you with Air Slash as your only attacking option, and thus walled by many Pokemon; this is why Heal Bell is going to be in AC.

Not exactly. Most things that wall Air Slash (steels) are going to lose to you regardless. Take Special Defensive Skarm for example. Using the current spread on the analysis (I assume thats going to be the defensive NP), a +2 Air Slash does 35% min to special defensive Skarm. I'd hardly call that "walling" with that high flinch rate and with the fact that all Skarm can do is blow you away. What about Rotom? RestTalk Rotom takes 32-38% from a +2 Air Slash (another 3HKO). What about Metagross? Standard Agiligross (the only Metagross we really see not leading) takes 40% minimum from +2 Air Slash (3HKO). Just saying, a 3HKO with Serene Grace's flinch hax is hardly walling. In fact, Togekiss has a very real chance to defeat all of them unscathed without Aura Sphere. The only thing Aura Sphere will helps against is Tyranitar, who immediately threatens you with a OHKO.

I think Heal Bell deserves a full slash because it also provides team support.

 

[cim]

Heal Bell is getting a full slash, don't worry. I'll probably AC Safeguard though.

Leftovers
Timid Nature
228 HP/44 SpD/236 Spe

228 HP is for leftovers, 236 Speed and a +nature allows you to out-speed neutral natured base 90s, and the rest is poured into Special Defense in order to take special hits even better. For example, Rapid Spin Starmie's Thunderbolt can only 3HKO Togekiss 12% of the time w/leftovers (if Togekiss is at full health), allowing Togekiss to set up in its face.

I feel really uncomfortable making "lefties numbers spreads" that arbitrarily take EVs and put them in different stats when HP adds mroe general bulk. The rule of thumb is that it's only okay if you're going for specific survival of a move, which you're not.

also i thought we just had a massive argument on why timid is bad for this set?

 

[AccidentalGreed]

Perhaps Togekiss could use some Paralysis support to utilize Modest Nature. Otherwise, Timid deserves a slash according to Raikou.

 

[Snorlaxe]

Alright, while Chris handles the defensive Nasty Plot set, I'm going to write the offensive one, so expect both of those by today or tomorrow. :)

 

[cim]

Finished defensive NP. Thanks. :)

 

[sora13]

With all that being said, I am leaning toward removing the defensive leadakiss and making a mention of it in OC. However, I really want some more opinions on it before this happens.

Please, do not do this. The bulky togekiss is very good for teams that don't mind stealth rock being set-up and I will just take a few random calcs from my Rmt to demonstrate it's survivability:

Defensive Rotom Thunderbolt: 53.6% - 63.8%

Lead Aerodactyl Rock Slide: 49.6% - 58.7%

Lead Metagross Meteor Mash: 42.7% - 50.4%

Lead Metagross Bullet Punch: 17.1% - 20.5%

Togekiss’s Fire Blast against said Metagross(without Occa): 72.5% - 85.7%

New MixMence Draco Meteor: 66.1% - 78.1%

New MixMence Outrage: 51.6% - 61%

Choice Band Scizor Bullet Punch: 37.9% - 44.7%

LO Starmie Hydro Pump: 53.8% - 63.5%

LO Starmie Ice Beam/ Thunderbolt: 57% - 67.2%

As you can see, it's pretty easy to paralyze the threats as they attack you, roost off the damage in most cases, and flinch hax them to death. Even Rotom is successfully neutered by this technique, due to Roost's effect. In general, it can survive much more and is MUCH more useful late game. please, test it some more.