Tyranitar (Full Revamp) +

[maddog]

ok a few things that are bugging me about boah

first, 168 SpA is kind of bad because it misses the magic point of a mere 8 EVs. there's no reason to not strive for 297 SpA especially when the 60 Atk EV are apparently not specifically allotted for any one pokemon

second, there's virtually no reason to use fire blast over flamethrower. FT does 142% min to the standard scizor (32HP/0SpD) and 147% to the standard forretress (252HP/0SpD). 297 SpA Fire Blast only has a 15% chance of OHKOing the standard Skarmory (the listed 294 SpA does less obviously), which is a percentage that washes with the Stealth Rock "argument" as far as I'm concerned due to FB's shitty accuracy. Scizor and Forry are both used more than Skarmory (#8, #27 and #28 respectively with the latest usage stats), but regardless, if there is an actual specfic reason to use FB over FT, it needs to be listed. for posterity though, FB will never OHKO Metagross and FT will always 2HKO, and similarly with Bronzong—FB does 54% max to Bronzong meaning that both FT and FB are likely 3HKOs (especially accounting for FBs miss chance). not seeing a real reason to risk FB when it literally doesn't seem to make any difference as far as what Boah can/can't KO

third, revisiting the Atk EVs...why? there needs to be a specific reason behind going with the 60 Attack EVs listed

and finally, this ties to my third point, but what are the specific reasons for going with Crunch over Dark Pulse? i'm sure this was discussed in the DP thread about this at some point, but I don't remember the reasoning and besides the fact that I personally don't see why it's a good idea, I literally don't see it either and we must remember the entire point behind these analyses is to educate inexperienced users. there is obviously more of a reason to run Atk EVs on PT Boah if it has two physical attacks instead of one, but besides my concern over whether or not that is still a good idea in PT (only one physical attack doesn't "deserve" 60 Atk EVs as much as two may), there still really needs to be specific reasons listed in the analysis to have Crunch on Boah over Dark Pulse

Thanks for weighting in jump. I'll look this over and make changes as necessary. I just got my internet back so I'll continue to work on this and look it over thanks.

 

[Tak]

i think there are 4-6 missing evs for the choice band set.

EDIT:

172 HP / 252 Atk / 80 Spe
172+252+80= 504

 

[Syberia]

Crunch over Dark Pulse is so you can actually beat CM Celebi. And it will always break Jirachi's Substitute.

IMO, Substitute/Crunch/Flamethrower/Stone Edge is the more effective set. Still deals with Blissey well enough, as it can't do anything back, and is actually able to deal with Salamence/Gyarados switching in. Also, it can actually use all of its moves without having to be behind a Substitute (though it's still beneficial to have one).

Focus Punch should at least be slashed with Stone Edge and possibly Superpower as well. Brave instead of Quiet.

 

[Jumpman16]

how often will you see CM celebi on a stall team? or jirachi for that matter? or salamence or gyarados? this may be a good set, but if the purpose of boah is to break stall teams then stone edge isn't as necessary nor is crunch

 

[Syberia]

What if you're not fighting a stall team, and still want an effective set?

 

[Jumpman16]

then you realize you're not modifying boah as much as you're making an entirely different set for entirely different purposes

as chaos and i have been saying since 2005, boah is not just "tyranitar with 101 HP substitutes". feel free to post more calculations and scenarios under which your set is (not "will be", preferably) effective

 

[Caelum]

Just posting to basically back jump up. I always thought boah was used on offensive teams that had trouble breaking stall :/. Every set loses to something so it's rather pointless to play this Crunch vs. Dark Pulse game by comparing what they can and cannot beat 1 on 1. Yeah, if loses to CM Celebi / Jirachi if you use Dark Pulse, but it loses to Gliscor / Hippowdon (assuming you don't have IB) without it. We should be asking , what is the intent of this set? As Jumpman said, the purpose is to break stall, and I think it's clear that Dark Pulse is the superior option over Crunch if we work under this assumption (unless we are talking about ubers, in which case Crunch is more useful). If your purpose is to be a mixed sweeper, then use the Mixed Tyranitar set already in the analysis. If your teams needs to break stall, use Boah. I really believe Crunch should be dropped to Set Comments.

 

[Colonel M]

Been thinking a lot about this, but how viable is a Rock Polish set? Pure theorymon here, but with a neutral nature and max Speed it can outpace Timid Scarf Heatran no problem. Unfortunately Tyranitar can't outpace Timid Scarf Gengar but still being able to become faster than most threats is worth it. On top of Rock Polish, Crunch, Stone Edge, Flamethrower (or Fire Blast), Earthquake, Ice Beam, and various other moves come to mind with it. More like the "Mixed Sweeper" with Rock Polish slapped onto Tyranitar, but still very useful.

For the boah statement, I'm in the bandwagon with Jump here. And thinking hard about this. Dark Pulse is more useful than Crunch on a OU stall team.

 

[chenman333]

Rock Polish T-Tar is a pretty good late game sweeper in Ubers. His main issue is with the slower, bulkier Ubers, Kyogre, Groudon, and Dialga.

A set I've been using:
Tyranitar @ Expert Belt/Life Orb/Leftovers
Sand Stream
4 hp/252 Atk/252 Spd
Adamant

-Rock Polish
-Crunch
-Stone Edge
-Dragon Claw

With Max Speed and an Adamant nature, Tyranitar can even uutspeed Deoxys-A with 442 speed. The combination of Crunch, Stone Edge, and Dragon hits most ubers super effective and all of them at least Neutral. What makes this set really appealing is STAB Crunch for the huge number of psychic pokemon out there, and the fact that Tyranitar can outspeed and deliver a STAB super effective Stone Edge against Lugia. Most of the Dragon Types are relatively frail, and Dragon Claw delivers a punishing blow to most of them.

Why not max speed with a neutral nature? That would let T-Tar hit 484 Speed, outspeeding +speed natured, scarfed based 90s, Dialga, Groudon, and Kyogre. Of the three, Tyranitar can only run Earthquake to hit Dialga super effective. The other two are quite bulky, and can seriously hurt Tyranitar with super effective STAB surfs and earthquakes. Scizor is also a severe problem, with his powerful STAB bullet punch. And unfortunately, you can't outspeed ScarfChomp and Scarf Palkia, both of whom will be serious problems with their vicious STAB super effective attacks.

Despite the fact that he can't seriously hurt these slower pokemon, he is definitely a huge threat later in the game when he can outspeed most ubers and deliver enormously power super effective hits.

Item choice isn't too tough. I'd say expert belt is best since you do hit so many ubers super effective with this set. LO is useful against those pokemon you don't hit super effective against, though the recoil damage is not too bad since you do outspeed so many pokemon. Leftovers is probably unnecessary since you should be able to sweep very effectively late game and avoid most damage.



I think the problem with Rock Polish Tyranitar in OU is that he lacks the punch for walls like Swampert and Hippowdon that aren't found in Ubers. Swampert especially is the main problem that a Rock Polish Tyranitar has, and HP Grass would be a pretty dumb idea. Meanwhile, most uber pokemon are weak to Tyranitars attacks and have a weaker defense. Oh and I forgot Scizor is so prevalent in OU, the whole outspeed thing is not all that useful.

 

[maddog]

I'll explore the possibility of Rock Polish Tar.

Updated with many of your ideas incorporated in. Stone Edge vs Rock Slide was moved to other options, I worked on the writing alot, and started on other options.

I still need to add Choice Specs and Mixed Dancer sets.

 

[Bogmire]

I don't see the point of dragon claw on rock polish ttar since every dragon is harder by stone edge. earthquake is a much better option since it doesn't leave you walled by steel types.

 

[muramusaw8]

I don't see the point of dragon claw on rock polish ttar since every dragon is harder by stone edge. earthquake is a much better option since it doesn't leave you walled by steel types.

Well, Flygon is not nailed by Stone Edge, but that's kind of a non-issue.

 

[Bogmire]

Well, Flygon is not nailed by Stone Edge, but that's kind of a non-issue.

6 hp flygon takes 76-90% from LO crunch, so if its slightly weakened or switched into SR a couple times its going down.

 

[Colonel M]

Even so, Ice Beam isnt a horrible idea on the Rock Polish set. The only thing is it sort of conflicts against Flying-types with Stone Edge, but otherwise it can be useful. It would also do slightly more damage than Life Orb Aqua Tail. Still, I'd say the best way to do the Rock Polish set is as follows:

- Rock Polish
- Stone Edge
- Crunch
- Fire Blast / Ice Beam

Expert Belt and Life Orb are the recommended options for obvious reasons.

Or Flamethrower. The raw power is the reason why I've considered it, and perhaps you wouldn't have to heavily invest in Special Attack for Fire Blast. Even with the negative nature, you can ALMOST OHKO Skarmory (seriously with Expert Belt you're left with 68 HP left and this includes minimum damage). Unfortunately, max damage with Expert Belt can't OHKO unless Stealth Rock damage is taken. Still, that isn't exactly horrible at all.

 

[MetaNite]

Love this Rock Polish set:

Tyranitar @ Life Orb
Rock Polish / Earthquake / Fire Blast / Crunch
204 Spe / 136 SpA / 168 Atk

EVs let you outpace Naive ScarfTran after a Rock Polish, and OHKO Skarmory with Fire Blast 100% of the time. It really decimates quite a lot of teams. All those teams that consist of something like Starmie, Heatran, Scizor, Rotom Appliance, Skarmory, Blissey... or whatever, often get 6-0'd.

 

[Bogmire]

Love this Rock Polish set:

Tyranitar @ Life Orb
Rock Polish / Earthquake / Fire Blast / Crunch
204 Spe / 136 SpA / 168 Atk

EVs let you outpace Naive ScarfTran after a Rock Polish, and OHKO Skarmory with Fire Blast 100% of the time. It really decimates quite a lot of teams. All those teams that consist of something like Starmie, Heatran, Scizor, Rotom Appliance, Skarmory, Blissey... or whatever, often get 6-0'd.

only problem is you get walled by gyarados and salamence.

 

[Colonel M]

Yeah, Stone Edge works perfectly fine over Earthquake. Fire Blast is hitting most of the Pokemon Earthquake is hitting anyway (barring Electric-types, but they get slammed hard by Stone Edge and Crunch). As for Fire-types, Stone Edge handles most of these too.

 

[Icy Vegeta]

Adamant on this set I assume?

 

[maddog]

Finished other options part.

Check it to see if I gave Rock Polish a good enough mention. If anybody wants to put it in the analysis, I think it could be a good set. It still needs to be tested though.

 

[AJC]

Curse set still has wrong info paypack doubles in power any time you go after the foe you do not have to take damage first this doubling happens even on switchs. other than that curse set seems fine

 

[RaikouLover]

Personally, I've been using a bit of Boah lately and I found the old EVs to do fine:

252 HP / 188 SpAtk / 68 Spe

Seriously, what does anything else accomplish? I also found Dark Pulse / Flamethrower to be the best options for breaking Stall in Platinum, as Dark Pulse does quite a bit to Hippowdon already as most of the Stealth Rock first anyway, allowing me to Sub, and Gliscor sucks and isn't used as a wall anymore. Furthermore, Donphan is easily 3HKOed by Dark Pulse as well, and it beats Reflect Celebi, which is more common now adays. Flamethrower easily beats Skarmory, Forretress, and fucking Scizor, and Focus Punch just still needs to be on there for more than just Blissey.

 

[Venom]

<p>Fire Blast and Ice Beam allow Tyranitar to hit many of his counters and take them down in one or two hits. Ice Beam is your best option against Bulky Grounds such as Hippowdon and Gliscor, 2HKOing and 1HKOing them all the time, respectively. Fire Blast hits Scizor, Forretress and Skarmory for Super Effective Damage and 1HKOs all of them barring Skarmory, who is 2HKOed 100% of the time. Crunch and Stone Edge gives Tyranitar his strongest options on the set because of STAB, and threaten Gengar, Gyarados and many other threats that normally would be comfortable switching in after a kill in order to chase Tyranitar away. Earthquake is a solid choice to hit Fire-types such as Infernape and Heatran. Fire Blast already most Steels, and both Fire-types them have problems taking a Stone Edge, but Earthquake insures the KO. It is an option over one of the STAB moves, if you feel you have the threats that they hit covered already. Thunderbolt is a good option for those who feel stuck against Bulky Waters, and it comes with a nice OHKO Gyarados as well.</p>

<p>Thunder Wave is decent on Tyranitar, although many of its common switch-ins are Ground-types or don't mind the paralysis. Stealth Rock is useful for support but is best left to more defensive Pokémon that might have recovery moves. If you do use it though, it is best used on the lead. Screech is a decent option to force switches, but many of Tyranitar's counters are faster than him and Tyranitar won't be able to take advanage of the opponent's lower Defense.</p>

<p>There are many physical options that weren't mentioned on the other sets. Ice Punch destroys Flygon and in particular Gliscor. The main reason is isn't recommended over Aqua Tail is that it misses the 2HKO on Hippowdon that Aqua Tail provides. Using Ice Punch over Aqua Tail also takes away a good option for hitting Steels and enemy Tyranitar, but is still is a great choice for its perfect accuracy and type coverage. Avalanche is an option, but Ice Punch is better in almost every situation that calls for a physical Ice-type Attack, with the exception of the Curse set. ThunderPunch takes out Gyarados in one hit and deals massive damage to Skarmory, but it is often an inferior option when compared to Stone Edge, which can take care of both of those threats fairly well and has much more utility overall. Aerial Ace destroys Breloom and Heracross in one hit, but is of little use outside of those two. </p>

<p>Stone Edge is recommended over Crunch, because most of the things that you hit harder with Crunch than Stone Edge (Think Bronzong, Hippowdon, Swampert) are all easily Countered for an OHKO. Meanwhile, Stone Edge will prevent Skarmory from walling you quite so badly, who can come in for free and phaze you otherwise. However, if you want the harder hit on the likes of Celebi and Cresselia, then Crunch is a perfectly viable option; especially if you run Magnezone to take care of Skarmory. The given EV's will allow you to survive an Adamant Garchomp's Earthquake easily (even after Stealth Rock damage) and counter for an easy OHKO, whilst still taking enough damage from a Gliscor Earthquake to guarantee an OHKO in return with Counter. The Speed ensures that you are faster than neutral Lucario after a Dragon Dance; still, be wary of the threat of Vacuum Wave.</p>

<p>Choosing between Adamant or Jolly is choosing whether you want to outspeed more threats, or do more damage. If you chose Adamant, after one Dragon Dance you will reach 332 Speed, which is enough to outspeed neutral base 115s and positive natured base 100s. Jolly allows you to reach 365 Speed, which allows you to beat everything up to positive nature base 115s, including Azelf and Starmie. Often the extra Speed is necessary to prevent you from being revenge killed by Infernape and Gengar, but may not provide enough power to deal with bulky walls.</p>

<p>The EV spread suggested gives you enough Speed to beat those Skarmory that don't invest in speed, allowing you to Stone Edge them before they can Roost. The rest are placed into HP, which allow you to take hits with Tyranitar's great defenses. If you want to maximize the ability Tyranitar can take hits, use 252 HP / 40 Attack / 216 Special Defense with a Careful Nature. This spread allows you to survive a Timid Life Orb Gengar's Focus Blast in OU, and more effectively counter threats such as Zapdos and Azelf. However, this spread does not accomplish a 2HKO on Hippowdon or Gliscor with Aqua Tail, so Earthquake is a superior option to hit Steels harder in this case.</p>

some stuff that might be useful

 

[Caelum]

Curse set still has wrong info paypack doubles in power any time you go after the foe you do not have to take damage first this doubling happens even on switchs. other than that curse set seems fine

If an opponent chooses to Swords Dance or Curse or something I believe you are incorrect AJC.

Can someone test this in-game or can a researcher or whoever verify this true?

If you are correct AJC the description also needs to be better on-site then.

Edit: I asked around on #IS and people weren't certain and Serebii's description says you have to actually take damage (but how reliable are they?). I tried searching the research threads but nothing came up. Can someone test this in-game please, thanks :)

 

[cim]

It does happen on switch-ins, so I don't see why it would be "switch in or if you took damage" but rather "opp moved before you". Then again, what makes sense =/= what's true.

Smogon's page implies that the opp just has to move first, by the way.

 

[maddog]

Thanks for correcting the capitialization Venom.

I'll look into what you said RaikouLover, I just copy/pasted from the old analysis, added Flamethrower as an option, changed Dark Pulse and Crunch and added some description. I'll do some research on the EV spread. I know for a fact though, that those Speed EVs were meant to beat Weezing, which isn't even BL anymore. You could probably lower the Speed down to just beat Blissey, and put more in Special Attack/ Attack. I'll check though.

I am unsure about the Payback situation, so if somebody lets me know I can fix it either way.