Tyranitar (Full Revamp) +

[cim]

Speed EVs are the only thing I'd bother changing to "beat Blissey", I'm sure even Jump would agree to change that on the set now in DP.

The juggle between Thunderbolt (Bulky Waters), Ice Beam (Hippowdon without Obi's EVs), and Flamethrower (Scizor) is a pretty big one. Flamethrower, however, is kind of going from "stall killer" to "metagame killer" though, and Jump's said it's specifically an anti stall set rather than an anti metagame one. I think. Am I reading it right?

 

[RaikouLover]

I would leave the speed EVs the way they are as Weezing isn't the only thing you outspeed (neutral Swampert, remember?). I don't think the choice of elemental attack really is that much a debate in terms of effectiveness. Flamethrower should probably the primary option, Ice Beam secondary, and Thunderbolt last. Flamethrower, despite being a Metagame killer is such an easy stall killer as well and let me explain why:

Hippowdon and especially Swampert can be beaten by Dark Pulse, as it is a 4HKO on both of them. However, in the event you both lead you Substitute as they Stealth Rock and get two hits on them (three if you get a flinch), not to mention they both fail to OHKO you. In the event Tyranitar isn't leading, neither one of them will want to switch into your sub because like I said, you get 2-3 solid hits on them. Ice Beam is really only helping you against Hippowdon as far as stall is concerned, as Donphan sucks and isn't on stall teams, and is always 3HKOed easily by Dark Pulse (I think 2HKOed sometimes). Gliscor has quickly become non-existant as a wall, and most teams have enough ways of dealing with him.

Now, Flamethrower helps you beat stall because of Forretress and Skarmory, which Thunderbolt or Ice Beam won't help you for the former. bulky waters can take a good 40% from a Focus Punch as you switch out, but the only ones existant on stall teams are Vaporeon or Tentacruel. Tentacruel is 3HKOed by Thunderbolt, and Vaporeon outspeeds you and can Wish + Protect to its hearts content. Ice Beam won't help you either way here, either.

I suppose Ice Beam can help you out as far as Zapdos is concerned, but it can just roost off your PP pretty quickly.

Finally, Dark Pulse, Flamethrower, and Focus Punch offers impeccable type coverage.

So I would probably list the elemental attacks as Flamethrower / Ice Beam / Thunderbolt, and describe how Flamethrower and Thunderbolt help break stall and list the pokemon specifically, and Ice Beam is better for the swift kill on Hippowdon and Gliscor to open up holes for other sweepers like Lucario. All three are solid options, but that is my take on them.

Also, Crunch should be secondary to Dark Pulse and the attack EVs should probably be scrapped. The only thing I could think Crunch as being useful for is Calm Mind Cresselia really, who also has fallen off the face of the earth it would appear.

 

[cim]

The trouble is that Hippowdon can stall out Dark Pulse, which is a problem for a set designed to beat stall. Then again, I'm not sure how it's still "beating stall" now that Toxic Spikes exist, but whatever, not my set.

 

[RaikouLover]

More often than not I found Tyraniboah beating Hippowdon with Dark Pulse thanks to the flinch. And you can't say its not beating stall because of Toxic Spikes, that has nothing to do with the set. Personally, I always run a grounded poison type with Tyranitar, or if more than two members of my team are affected by toxic spikes. Roserade or Tentacruel both seem to work in tandem with Tyraniboah, as they can lay their own spikes as well (meaning it really beats stall rather easily).

Again, I strongly recommend using the ADV standard spread Jumpman developed: 252 HP / 188 SpA / 68 Spe, Quiet

 

[Jibaku]

If an opponent chooses to Swords Dance or Curse or something I believe you are incorrect AJC.

Can someone test this in-game or can a researcher or whoever verify this true?

If you are correct AJC the description also needs to be better on-site then.

Edit: I asked around on #IS and people weren't certain and Serebii's description says you have to actually take damage (but how reliable are they?). I tried searching the research threads but nothing came up. Can someone test this in-game please, thanks :)

I ran a test on this and it appears Payback doubles damage regardless of whatever your opponent does if you move last. This includes switching.

More info in the DP Research thread.

 

[Caelum]

I ran a test on this and it appears Payback doubles damage regardless of whatever your opponent does if you move last. This includes switching.

More info in the DP Research thread.

Thanks Jibaku. Maddog can edit the Curse thing I wrote accordingly. The on-site description could probably be made to be more clear that a supporting move counts as an "attack". The only reason I think its important to make this distinction is because Serebii has this wrong in their move description and many, many people have the same misconception I did in thinking it had to be a damaging move to activate Payback.

 

[maddog]

Sounds like Payback is better pretty much 100% of the time, so I'll edit that in as the main option on Caelum's set.

 

[maddog]

Updated by adding all remaining sets, and the rest of the analysis. I mainly just updated Other Options, and the Counters section. I think I'm going to rewrite the Choice Specs set eventually, and I need to check to see if I listed the best set.

 

[cim]

Slash Payback on the CB set? It's not like Tyranitar outspeeds... anything.

 

[Syberia]

Leave Crunch as an option, I enjoy being able to outspeed Swampert and deal 40-50% with CB Crunch. Slashing Payback would be fine as long as you point that out.

 

[maddog]

I actually kind of like that idea. However, I think on a set that has so much power, I think I would rather go with something that's more consistant as opposed to something that has a chance of getting stronger. It doesn't get the same effect against Swampert or Snorlax, but your right. Most of the time people will just switch or attack with faster guys. I'm not sure if a slash would be the best idea, but I can certainly mention it in the set comments.

 

[green_flash]

In the counter section, X-Scizzor should be X-Scissor

 

[Lawman]

I have seen Superpower discussed for Specstar and such, but what about CBtar? Granted I use it most in CAP, but the threats i used it for were nonCAP pokemon still common in the regular metagame, and by looking at some RMTs in the forums, Superpower from Tyranitar can be a potent threat. I find myself using it early game to either take out other leading CBtar or other pokemon I know I wouldn't be able to ohko otherwise, and late game it is a great cleaning move. It should be at least mentioned in other options for the set, imo.

Btw if you are wondering I myself run Stone Edge/Crunch/Aqua Tail/Superpower. Never liked Pursuit, heh.

 

[Syberia]

I've found Pursuit to be extremely useful.

 

[Lawman]

Eh, too each his own. All I am saying is that Superpower should be listed in other options as an option for the Choice Band set too.

 

[darkie]

I don't believe Superpower or even Focus Punch are that great of options on Specs Tar. FP doesn't OHKO Blissey and Superpower doesn't 2HKO. If it were to hit something like Bronzong, without reliable recovery, sure, but since Blissey has Softboiled, the fighting move just doesn't do enough damage imo.

On Ice Beam, it isn't that great of an option on Specs Tar anymore. Ice Beam hits: Salamence, Skymin, Gliscor, Hippowdon, Dragonite. Salamence, Skymin, and Dragonite are not switching into Tyranitar, and if Tyranitar switches into them, they can just run or use one of their super effective moves. In effect, that limits the list to just Gliscor and Hippowdon. Regardless of being "just for Swampert", the absence of Gliscor and Hippowdon currently makes me lean towards HP Grass. The usages of Gliscor and Hippow are 43389 (combined). Swampert alone is higher than that, at around 45000.

(fyi: this isn't theorymon; i've tested specs tar.)

 

[Caelum]

I don't believe Superpower or even Focus Punch are that great of options on Specs Tar. FP doesn't OHKO Blissey and Superpower doesn't 2HKO. If it were to hit something like Bronzong, without reliable recovery, sure, but since Blissey has Softboiled, the fighting move just doesn't do enough damage imo.

It helps with opposing T-Tar. Tyranitar is its own best counter without it (besides Blissey, but Blissey is fat and pink so w/e). That would more of a reason to consider it then Blissey.

On Ice Beam, it isn't that great of an option on Specs Tar anymore. Ice Beam hits: Salamence, Skymin, Gliscor, Hippowdon, Dragonite. Salamence, Skymin, and Dragonite are not switching into Tyranitar, and if Tyranitar switches into them, they can just run or use one of their super effective moves. In effect, that limits the list to just Gliscor and Hippowdon. Regardless of being "just for Swampert", the absence of Gliscor and Hippowdon currently makes me lean towards HP Grass. The usages of Gliscor and Hippow are 43389 (combined). Swampert alone is higher than that, at around 45000.

HP Grass is just for Swampert though. Solely dedicating a move to one Pokemon is a bit odd. It can be included but I'm not entirely for dropping Ice Beam. You 2HKO most Swampert with Dark Pulse & SR in play the majority of the time anyway. Most Swampert aren't Careful etc.

(fyi: this isn't theorymon; i've tested specs tar.)

fyi: this is 100% theorymon; I'm awesome like that.

 

[RaikouLover]

SpecsTar needs work. That set seems inefficient to me... The EV spread needs work and darkie is right, Ice Beam isn't really needed. Here is more effective IMO:

[SET]
name: Choice Specs
move 1: Dark Pulse
move 2: Flamethrower
move 3: Thunderbolt
move 4: Focus Punch
item: Choice Specs
nature: Mild
evs: 60 Atk / 252 SpA / 196 Spe

Ok, I changed the EV spread to make it more efficient. Let me explain. For starters, Focus Punch is necessary on any Choice Specs user that gets it. With Mild and only 60 Atk EVs, you do minimum 89% to Calm Blissey, meaning you have a 100% Chance to OHKO with Stealth Rock and a 66.7% chance without it thanks to Sandstorm. Ice Beam is not needed as darkie mentioned... why?

Choice Specs Dark Pulse vs. Hippowdon: 49-57%, which is a 36% chance to 2HKO, or 100% chance to 2HKO with Stealth Rock.

Gliscor isn't too frightening anymore, and I doub't Salamence or Shaymin-S will switch in.

Now, the speed hits 207, outspeeding Cresselia and Bold Suicune. Why?

Choice Specs Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252 SpDef Calm Cresselia: 47-55%, again another 100% chance to 2HKO thanks to Sandstorm. Without the speed, Cresselia could T-Wave you and moonlight stall and get outta there. Dark Pulse gives you the ability to Flinch her also.

Choice Specs Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP Bold Suicune: 60-71%
Choice Specs Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP Offensive Cune: 71-84%

For some reason, people like to Calm Mind up, but getting the jump on Bold Suicune means you get the jump on every Bulky water, as Thunderbolt and the given EVs will beat Vaporeon, Milotic, or Cune every time if they dare switch in.

So I would re-evaluate this darkie. Focus Punch HAS to be used on pretty much any Choice Specs user that has it.

Oh, and for the record:

Choice Specs Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP Swampert: 47-55%, another guarenteed 2HKO with Stealth Rock!

And for Jumpman's average damage thing about choice sets, Dark Pulse, Flamethrower and Focus Punch hit everything for neutral.

 

[maddog]

Thanks for the help everybody, I was really lost about the Choice Specs set (and I believe I did mention that it needed a rewrite). I do believe that Ice Beam is not that great on Choice Specs (which is why I slashed it in I think), and Hidden Power Grass is only meh on it. I like RaikouLover's set, but I think for the actual set on the analysis, I'll include 4 Special Moves on the set, and mention the whole Focus Punch that RL brought up in the set comments. The reason that I want to do this is not because I think of Focus Punch as a useless move (because it certainly is not), but I don't like the idea of lowering one of your awesome defense stats to defeat Blissey and Snorlax, who really won't switch in on Tar until you hit somethings twice.

 

[Colonel M]

I dunno, but couldn't Choice Specs use Quiet + SuperPower anyway? What's the census on that?

 

[RaikouLover]

Quiet could be used, but that would require BOTH speed and attack EVs to defeat Blissey. The whole point of the mild spread was that Specs Tyranitar can beat every Bulky Water in the game, AND beat Blissey. Also, a Quiet spread needs EVs just to be able to flinch Swampert as well. Lowering Tyranitar's defenses may bother some, but the set does get the crucial kills in the process, eliminating Swampert, Hippowdon, Donphan, Bulky Waters, Blissey, and things like Metagross running 202 Speed.

 

[Colonel M]

Okay. But I'd still like to know why SuperPower was removed. Granted it won't OHKO, but the 2HKO is still something IMO (if it switches into Tyranitar).

 

[maddog]

I'll have to run some damage calculations, but if Superpower 2HKOs Blissey by just switching to a Quiet nature and running the speed to beat said Blissey, it is definetely a worthwile option.

 

[cim]

You know, Superpower lowers Defense anyway so I don't see what the big deal about running Quiet over Mild is.

RaikouLover's set works really, really, well, and it beats up most of its regular counters and really almost anything in the game with the right move (except Hariyama / Hitmontop / the like).

 

[chenman333]

EDIT: Actually, this is basically just the mixed attacker with different EVs, slightly different moveset, and different items.

Hey, I made a pretty useful anti-lead T-Tar that covers a lot of todays threats, though Fear's Sashtar was a pretty good one too.

I think the item choice could be explained better because your moveset, EVs, and item all depend on each other.

Tyranitar @ Chople Berry/Focus Sash/Expert Belt
Sandstream
12 Hp/160 Atk/252 SpA/84 Spd
Rash
-Crunch/Dark Pulse
-Ice Beam
-Fire Blast
-Earthquake/Superpower

Tyranitar is probably one of the best anti-leads in the game, mainly because of his ability Sandstream, which allows him to kill many suicide leads in one clean blow. Crunch is for the ever popular Azelf leads, and also eliminates Gengar and Alakazam. Dark Pulse can be substituted for this, but witht the given EVs, Tyranitar has a higher attack stat. Both serve different purposes though; Crunch makes you seem like you have a Choice Band, while Dark Pulse makes you look like Boah, which could be very useful later in the match. Ice Beam 2HKO's the standard Hippowdon lead most of the time and helps against other bulky grounds and Aerodactyl (beware of Aerodactyl 2HKOing you though) and also hits Salamence, Zapdos, and other Dragons/Flyers. Fire Blast can 2HKO Bronzong, something that Flamethrower can't do. It also fries Scizor, Forretress, and Skarmory (who is especially likely to switch in if you used Crunch). Thunderbolt is a decent choice that can help take Gyarados out or hurt bulky waters, but beyond that its not much use. Fire Blast is a much much better option.

The last slot is up in the air. Earthquake with the given EVs is absolutely guaranteed to kill Infernape with Sandstorm, and with Chople Berry, you survive the close combat. Meanwhile, Superpower lets you 2hko Blissey (who is likely to switch in if she thinks you are Boah) and lets you outspeed and kill Tyranitar (usually CBed ones are leads, and you outspeed the standard one). Choosing Superpower means you can't take out Infernape though.

The EV spread is pretty customizable. Max SpA and Rash is necessary to give your special attacks some pop. Rash over mild because you don't want to take extra pain from Gyro Ball's, Earthquakes, and other fighting attacks. If you choose Earthquake, you can use the above EV spread (which kills infernape is he uses Close Combat right off the bat), or lower the attack to 92 EVs, which KOs Infernape if he uses fake out on you, then Close Combat. The remaining EVs can be put into HP or Spd. If you choose Superpower, you can get rid of all your attack EVs altogether (you are still going to 2hko Blissey, 1hko T-Tar) and put them into HP or Speed. If you choose Superpower, then Dark Pulse is the obvious choice. The 84 Spd EVs allow you to outrun the standard CB Tyranitar.

Chople Berry is the only choice if you choose Earthquake, since you don't want fake out ruining your sash and then getting killed by the Close Combat. If you choose Superpower however, that would mean you don't want to deal with Leadape. In that case, Focus Sash would also be useful, since it would allow you to take a big CB Earthquake from the likes of Mamoswine and KO back.