ORAS UU Viability Rankings V4

[Nightingales]

Right, I'm being told to, so this is my mandatory Scyther to C post.

Technician, flying stab is good, boosting moves, etc etc etc.

 

[LRXC]

Right, I'm being told to, so this is my mandatory Scyther to C post.

Technician, flying stab is good, boosting moves, etc etc etc.

I support this quality post

 

[canasian]

the hell i do the vialbility rankingswas much better the way it was before those pokemons deserved their a/a- socan we get back the old rankings

I know there aren't strict definitions for the individual ranks anymore but look at the 'mons that are currently residing in A-; they are all highly self-sufficient 'mons that have high reward and are very splashable. Froslass is definitely high-reward, but it's highly archetype-specific and restricts teambuilding around itself. Given that viability is defined as "how useful is this?" Froslass is just not as viable as 'mons like Empoleon, Shaymin, and even Slowking which are going to be more useful, more often, in more situations for more players.

 

[The Heartless Dictator]

I have my own nomination, and it may come off as kinda weird, but....

I want to nominate

to drop to B+. I haven't really used Mienshao a lot compared to other Fighting-types like Heracross and Cobalion, but I played around with it on a few teams to test it out and see how it could do, but with the recent drops and changes, I've found Mienshao to be lackluster sometimes. The biggest problem for Mien I've found is Sableye, since it has priority Will-o, which makes Mienshao pretty much dead weight unless you have a cleric on your team. It's made worse since if you predict wrong and use HJK and your opponent switches in to Sableye, unless you have Regenerator, you aren't recovering from that too well, and even if you do, you can't U-Turn out from it safely because of the threat of Prankster Will-o. Zapdos dropping hurt it as well, since a lot of sets I've come across seemed to be physically defensive sets, which Mienshao cannot get past with unless it runs Stone Edge on the Life Orb set, which lets it get a 2HKO on it, but that makes it more susceptible to Florges, which is already used on plenty of teams.

I probably still need more time to play around with it some more, but from what I've experienced so far, Mienshao hasn't done me that much good compared to Heracross or Cobalion as a Fighting-type mon, since those two I found benefited a bit more with the changes and recent drops than Mienshao did.

 

[pizzaguy88]

I have my own nomination, and it may come off as kinda weird, but....

I want to nominate

to drop to B+. I haven't really used Mienshao a lot compared to other Fighting-types like Heracross and Cobalion, but I played around with it on a few teams to test it out and see how it could do, but with the recent drops and changes, I've found Mienshao to be lackluster sometimes. The biggest problem for Mien I've found is Sableye, since it has priority Will-o, which makes Mienshao pretty much dead weight unless you have a cleric on your team. It's made worse since if you predict wrong and use HJK and your opponent switches in to Sableye, unless you have Regenerator, you aren't recovering from that too well, and even if you do, you can't U-Turn out from it safely because of the threat of Prankster Will-o. Zapdos dropping hurt it as well, since a lot of sets I've come across seemed to be physically defensive sets, which Mienshao cannot get past with unless it runs Stone Edge on the Life Orb set, which lets it get a 2HKO on it, but that makes it more susceptible to Florges, which is already used on plenty of teams.

I probably still need more time to play around with it some more, but from what I've experienced so far, Mienshao hasn't done me that much good compared to Heracross or Cobalion as a Fighting-type mon, since those two I found benefited a bit more with the changes and recent drops than Mienshao did.

Right, I'm being told to, so this is my mandatory Scyther to C post.

Technician, flying stab is good, boosting moves, etc etc etc.

I would like to nominate scyther to blacklisted or something, Its not getting ranked 4*weakness to rock and is outsped a lot fletchinder is a much better sd user making scythers only niche bug stab to hit rocks types and eletric types i guess but almost every eletric type is faster than scyther and we only have one common rock type

 

[Adaam]

I think Diancie deserves a rise to C+, maybe even B-. Role compression on balance builds is crucial in this meta as we gain more and more threats each month to deal with, which is why we still see stuff like Forretress in the top 5 usage despite it being not very viable. Diancie carves a valuable niche and provides role compression by setting Rocks, checking Dragons + Darks due to Fairy typing, and due to Rock typing, you don't have to dedicate other team members or moveslots to help deal with Entei, Beedrill, Toxicroak, Crobat, etc unlike the tier's other Fairies. You also have a fourth free moveslot after Rocks + dual STABs, so you can choose to either compress even more roles in Diancie by running Heal Bell, spread status with Toxic, or run a 3rd coverage move to alleviate the Steel weakness (HP Fire shits on Forry thinking it can spin Rocks away for free, or Earth Power deals good damage to most Steels like Doublade and Cobalion). I'm not saying Diancie is some super splashable mon like Florges in, but to put in the same rank as freaking Milotic is underselling it.

Note: My post doesn't really discuss any recent trends in its favor. I just think that its initial placement is not accurate

 

[Nightingales]

There was stuff here but Smogon derped.

I'm gonna take that second thing as your edit, since there's no edit in THD's post and the grammar suddenly sucked.

Don't compare Scyther and Fletch. The two do very different jobs.

Also, a base 110 attack and a base 105 speed means that on either side, you're not exactly getting outsped everywhere you go, since if you run Jolly you're outpacing a good chunk of the meta. In fact, you're outspeeding everything Non-Scarfed Mienshao does. As for strength, you're running either Eviolite or some boosting item. I personally run Sky Plate. So a Scyther's Aerial Ace from that does 2 base damage less than an Acrobatics does from Linda. If you run Eviolite, you lose 20, which isn't that much if you go down.

Except Linda has 269 attack at max, while Scyther has almost 80 more at 350 if it's Adamant, or 319 if Jolly, a full 50 more.

Gale Wings is the only advantage Fletch really has over Scyther, aside from being unable to be burned. And even then, Acrobatics is the strongest move it can pull, where Scyther can run Eviolite without the drawback of losing nearly as much power, and can still run a viable Roost set while being on the offense.

It's still decently bulky if you decide to go defensive, being able to pull lefties, Eviolite, etc. With Eviolite, the thing becomes bulkier than a Cress uninvested, hitting a stat of 294. At least, it does defenses-wise, being that bulky on either side. With 252 defense EVs, the thing hits a stat of approximately 389, so it's still bulkier.

That rock weakness you were talking about? That's about all that'll actually break it at that point.



People that actually know this stuff better than me, I'm tired and cranky and don't feel good, feel free to dissect and tell me I'm wrong but I'll probably delete this in the morning if I feel like it's too much.

 

[Jrod77]

Now that Showdown differentiates between a mega and its regular form, I want to address the viability of Sceptile in UU. Obviously, Non-mega sceptile is outclassed by its Mega counter part, however I believe that regular Sceptile is completely viable in UU without the Sceptilite.

One major advantage that Sceptile has over Mega-Sceptile is that it frees up a mega slot for your team and still provides the same coverage that Mega-Sceptile offers. Due to the prevalence of bulky water types in UU, particularly Suicune, Swampert, Milotic, and Blastoise not to mention the RU threats of Gastrodon, Quagsire and Jellicent, Sceptile's Coverage is incredibly important and useful in the tier. Sceptile also checks offensive threats such as Feraligatr and Crawdaunt if they have not yet set up a DD.

When paired with Choice Specs, Sceptile is a very effective wall breaker in the tier, as it is capable of nuking defensive walls with Leafstorm, Dragon Pulse or Focus Blast and is able to heal itself back up with the reliable stab in Giga Drain.

One downfall to Sceptile is that it is walled by the same walls as its mega. The likes of Blissey and Florges can eat up hits from Sceptile and heal up, although Focus Blast and Leaf Storm deal a nice chunk of damage to them respectively. AV Snorlax can also take hits from Sceptile, but then cannot recover with leftovers or rest making it very easy to wear down.

Offensive threats such as Mamoswine, Entei and Arcanine can force Sceptile to switch, but cannot reliably switch into the power of a Choice Specs Leaf Storm. Offensive mons that outspeed Sceptile can also threaten it out such as Scarfed Darmanitan, Mega-Beedrill, Mega-Aerodactyl and Crobat, Beedrill and Crobat both Quad resist Sceptile's STAB but they still don't enjoy the hit due to their relative frailty.

With proper team support, Sceptile can be incredibly effective in the UU tier. Sceptile gives a reliable check to Bulky Water types, and provides a speedy Special Wall Breaker while freeing up a mega spot on your team, as well as giving you a late game sweeper.

 

[DrReuniclus]

Now that Showdown differentiates between a mega and its regular form, I want to address the viability of Sceptile in UU. Obviously, Non-mega sceptile is outclassed by its Mega counter part, however I believe that regular Sceptile is completely viable in UU without the Sceptilite.

One major advantage that Sceptile has over Mega-Sceptile is that it frees up a mega slot for your team and still provides the same coverage that Mega-Sceptile offers. Due to the prevalence of bulky water types in UU, particularly Suicune, Swampert, Milotic, and Blastoise not to mention the RU threats of Gastrodon, Quagsire and Jellicent, Sceptile's Coverage is incredibly important and useful in the tier. Sceptile also checks offensive threats such as Feraligatr and Crawdaunt if they have not yet set up a DD.

When paired with Choice Specs, Sceptile is a very effective wall breaker in the tier, as it is capable of nuking defensive walls with Leafstorm, Dragon Pulse or Focus Blast and is able to heal itself back up with the reliable stab in Giga Drain.

One downfall to Sceptile is that it is walled by the same walls as its mega. The likes of Blissey and Florges can eat up hits from Sceptile and heal up, although Focus Blast and Leaf Storm deal a nice chunk of damage to them respectively. AV Snorlax can also take hits from Sceptile, but then cannot recover with leftovers or rest making it very easy to wear down.

Offensive threats such as Mamoswine, Entei and Arcanine can force Sceptile to switch, but cannot reliably switch into the power of a Choice Specs Leaf Storm. Offensive mons that outspeed Sceptile can also threaten it out such as Scarfed Darmanitan, Mega-Beedrill, Mega-Aerodactyl and Crobat, Beedrill and Crobat both Quad resist Sceptile's STAB but they still don't enjoy the hit due to their relative frailty.

With proper team support, Sceptile can be incredibly effective in the UU tier. Sceptile gives a reliable check to Bulky Water types, and provides a speedy Special Wall Breaker while freeing up a mega spot on your team, as well as giving you a late game sweeper.

The problem is normal sceptile faces competition from the likes of debateably much more versatile grass types in the tier. If you are looking for the coverage mega sceptile has and don't have your mega slot avaliable then you're next hard hitting alternative would be shaymin as with its large movepool it can hit everything normal sceptile can and more with only the loss of a little spa and a gain of a much more spamable stab move. If you want the raw power of leaf storm you have better options in specs rotom-c and offensive roserade which also obtain an addition type for stronger coverage with their stab moves. However, if you really need that coverage/speed tier so much, it's almost always better to go mega as you can get the additional speed to beat +1 gatr, scarf chande, scarf gardevoir, and speed tie with mega beedrill without losing much power, gaining an immunity to electric attacks so you can stop pivots, and you gain an addition typing in the form of dragon for a stronger dragon pulse. Using the mega also allows you to switch moves putting much less pressure on predictions. Normal sceptile is much akin to serperior before it gained contrary, which was almost unusable in the uu metagame as it was also outclassed by the other grass types in the tier. Overall, I just feel normal sceptile cannot provide much of anything over the other grass types in the tier.

 

[Mazar]

Make Sableye A+ Rank

I'm not in the mood to write an essay for this, but people should definitely discuss about Sableye because it has been so good in the current meta.

Mod edit: you need to add somethin substantial to your posts when nominating a Pokemon on the viability rankings, otherwise we'll delete the next post.

 

[Froggyboy]

No.
Its typing is nice for checking Fighting and Psychic types, and Prankster Will-O and Recover is cool, but its stats are bad, like NFEs like Quilavas have a higher BST lol. While I know stats don't dictate everything about a mon, but seriously, 50/75/65 bulk is pretty shitty, plus with like no resists(Poison :OO), that just limits the things it can switch in on. I personally think Sableye is overrated, as I'm pretty sure CM Reuniclus can still beat it, and it just gives free switches to a ton of stuff, so moving up to A+ is a clear overstatement of its abilities.

 

[newfren]

The standard CM Reun set (focus blast) literally cannot touch sableye. Shadow ball is another question but then you lose to curselax instead of beating it which is really shitty.

I think you might be underselling how neat a prankster wow and a prankster taunt on the same mon is in this meta - it gives sableye the ability to put in work against both offense and semistall, the prevailing builds atm.

Also it hardly gives free switchins to tonnes of stuff - mostly just fairies, given that the majority of fire types don't want to switch in on a foul play.

That said - A+ is a bit of a stretch imo, but A- is definitely underselling it. I'd say floating around Whims/Coba in the A ranks is about right.

 

[Schpoonman]

Sableye is a bit of an odd duck in that it's not a traditional wall or breaker; it's an extremely anti-meta disruptor. Prankster Will-O-Wisp means Offense has a bitch of a time even getting a hit off on Sableye while the three of the four premier Fire-types in our tier get smashed by STAB Foul Play, though they do all outspeed. Sableye's huge support movepool (WoW, Taunt, Trick, among others) and just barely usable stats (I think Sableye and Breloom have similar HP and Defenses, so the BST argument isn't a great point) makes semi-stall lacking a Fairy-type borderline unplayable. SpDef Sableye is surprisingly resilient, rarely being 2HKO'd with unboosted attacks given that you burn almost every Pokemon that comes in.

Like newfren said and sort of implied, the chunky wincons that stuff like Semistall rely on simply don't win when the opposing team has a Sableye, outside of CM Florges, who only wins by virtue of SE STAB. I have been dreading Sableye's drop ever since the change in tiering mechanics was announced because while it requires a high level of skill to utilize, it is one of the top ten best Pokemon in the tier when played well. Sableye is clear A/A+ material.

 

[Pearl]

A+ isn't out totally out of question for Sableye though. Keep in mind that it fits into literally any kind of team, from HO to full stall, is an almost perfect counter to both Reuniclus and Snorlax, two Pokemon with potential to single handily destroy entire teams and has an amazing match up against stall as well, considering no one really runs Aromatisse at the moment and Florges can be worn down through hazards + Taunt on the switch (and that's the only thing that can directly threaten Sableye). On top of that, it is a nearly perfect hazard guardian and can neutralize a lot of win conditions with priority burn as a last ditch resort. The point is: considering how easy it is to slap onto teams and how much utility it provides, especially when taking into account that it matches up well against nearly any playstyle and is pretty much the face of hazard stacking HO (while also being on like 90% of the currently viable stall teams), I believe Sableye could potentially be moved up to A+

Still on topic of hazard stacking: Froslass should probably be moved up to A-. Its role hasn't really changed at all so I'm not going to explain it in-depth, but Sableye makes it a lot more lethal. Absol isn't as common as it used to be too (although it is very likely to make a comeback, really underrated Mega), and that was easily offense's best answer to Froslass shenanigans back when they were a thing.

 

[Adaam]

Eh I can see a rise to A for Sableye but no way it's A+ worthy. People seem to be forgetting it's a complete liability against certain teams, primarily ones with Mega Houndoom, Mega Absol, and any Fire type. Notice how all the A+ mons can always contribute or threaten to sweep, even if the opponent has a switch in. Yeah Knock Off is annoying for the non Megas but it sucks when you have a +2 Lucario staring you in the face and if you click Will-O you potentially invite that Chandelure in the back for a free Flash Fire boost.

The poor defenses don't help which make it impossible to switch in to the threats that it's supposed to check against offensive teams. It's not gonna burn a Mamo, for example, until something has died, and I often find that I can cripple it anyway even when burned cause it's so damn frail.

That being said, Sableye is a huge nuisance, and MegaDoom/Absol are not that common. The utility it provides is unmatched, so a rise to A may be warranted, but no higher

 

[pizzaguy88]

Thoughts on rankings and nominations:

• No thoughts on sablye really dont see the difference between a or a- and dont agree with it rising to A+
• Look someone nees to give me a good reason why tangrwoth is b- that seems way to low and should be up to b/b+ imo
• Diancie should be brought up to c+ its not as terrible as we thought.
• Shuckle should be brought down to c/c- its bullshit that smeargle is ranked lower than it imo.

Let me know if i should be more detailed and dont ignore tangrwoth

 

[Cheryl.]

Okay before this thread literally goes to shitty one-liners with no explanation whatsoever, I have a nomination.

Aerodactyl to B-
So I've been trying out regular Aerodactyl lately, and I think it deserves a rise. It's a really underrated suicide lead with a lot of perks over other leads, namely it's 130 speed and access to Taunt. It also has really nice matchups against other leads, as it can use Flamethrower to hit Forretress, can use Stone Edge to smack Froslass, and can Taunt pretty much any lead so they cannot set up hazards or in Froslass' case, not DBond you. While it only has one set in it's lead set, making it really predictable, it excels at this one set and does it really well. While Aerodactyl's main use is to set up Rocks, it still has a neat offensive presence in it's speed and attacking stats. Overall, while Mega Aerodactyl is a better choice most of the time, Aerodactyl still does well enough in it's role that I believe it should rise.

 

[kokoloko]

you forgot unnerve to stop custap and double edge to kill itself and stop spin/Defog after sash

I prefer aero to azelf most of the time as a dedicated rocks lead tbh

 

[Kink]

Hey guys, a bit of an update for you:

For starters, Crawdaunt will initially be ranked at mid A. This may or may not change depending on your observations and analyses, so feel free to discuss the placement of Crawdaunt further.

Continuing, here are some other changes that'll take place:

Seismitoad: from B- --> C+

Mienshao: from A- --> B+

Diancie: from C --> C+

Mega-Aggron: from B+ --> B Hogg hit the nail on the head with this one, feel free to read his post on the previous page.

Mega-Steelix: from C --> C+ see ^^^

Sableye: from A- --> A

Mega-Abomasnow: From A --> B+

On Aerodactyl: There's pretty much no reason to run Aero over Azelf (or other leads), aside from being Slurpuff/Berry lure (which is fairly uncommon); the sheer predictability of standard Aero lead is beyond glaring, since it'll typically pair up with another obvious mega choice, like Mega Houndoom, Mega Bee, Mega-Blastoise, Mega-Swampert, Mega-Sharpedo, or loads of other offensive options. Cause that's what standard Aero is, a typical lead. Azelf, at the very least, has a small degree of unpredictability in SpA potential + attack potential; it's hard to tell whether you're getting a LO Stealth Rock set or a Sash Explosion set. kokoloko hit the nail on the head regarding Aero's benefits, although I think Double Edge is a terrible move, and 90% of the time you're better off just clicking taunt or Stone Edge/EQ, with the odd exception being a Rapid Spin (Forretress [custap]) user. Anyway, it's not rising.

On Suicune: More discussion must take place for any sort of drop from S --> A+ to happen. It will remain S.

 

[jjoshcja]

Just to add to points made (I have no issue with aero staying in C+)

Sac lead aero is absurdly consistent and will always beat lead azelf, which is a pretty huge niche as it gives an edge in the offense/offense mirror and allows for greater focus on the semi/BO matchup in teambuilding. The standard lead aero also happens to chip damage very different targets than it's competition, has a deeper lure pool than you're implying, and packs the previously mentioned unerve utility which again eases teambuilding on offense to a surprising degree. I'm also not certain how pert and shark are "obvious" mega's as their normal forms are both quite good on offense. Bluffing Maero is a real strat and is frankly a much bigger perceived threat than "insert random azelf set".

Not to put too fine a point on it but... there are a lot of reasons to run aero over azelf or any of its other sac lead frens, it's just the drawback of being unable to run the single best pokemon in UU if you so happen to bring a normal aero, and the wide spread of other sac leads really cripples the hell out of aero's viability.

 

[The Heartless Dictator]

I think Crawdaunt is fine at A. It's been said plentiful times now, but Crawdaunt isn't going to be sweeping teams unless it gets the proper setup, which in most cases it has a hard time accomplishing unless the player predicts and plays correctly. Since it dropped here recently, I'm expecting that Heliolisk and Mega Amphy are going to get a fair amount of usage, especially the latter with it's defensive set. And again, Sableye is a dick to Crawdaunt as well, as it is with a lot of physical mons. Middle A rank to me is the best place for it right now.

I'm not sure about Suicune's rank tbh. Sableye is a big threat in the fact that all it needs to do is Taunt Suicune and force it out, but it can't do much else to it as well. Zapdos is probably the biggest threat to it now, especially if it's the Choice Specs variant. As I said with Crawdy, I'm expecting Heliolisk and Mega Amp to gain a bit more usage because of it, and both of them, especially Heliolisk, can threaten Suicune. At the moment, I'm gonna say that Suicune should stay at S rank, but that might change soon.

 

[Kink]

Just to add to points made (I have no issue with aero staying in C+)

Sac lead aero is absurdly consistent and will always beat lead azelf, which is a pretty huge niche as it gives an edge in the offense/offense mirror and allows for greater focus on the semi/BO matchup in teambuilding. The standard lead aero also happens to chip damage very different targets than it's competition, has a deeper lure pool than you're implying, and packs the previously mentioned unerve utility which again eases teambuilding on offense to a surprising degree. I'm also not certain how pert and shark are "obvious" mega's as their normal forms are both quite good on offense. Bluffing Maero is a real strat and is frankly a much bigger perceived threat than "insert random azelf set".

Not to put too fine a point on it but... there are a lot of reasons to run aero over azelf or any of its other sac lead frens, it's just the drawback of being unable to run the single best pokemon in UU if you so happen to bring a normal aero, and the wide spread of other sac leads really cripples the hell out of aero's viability.

Consistency is what gives it a rank at C+ in the first place, and that's not a bad thing. The problem with lead Aero is that it's useless outside of its lead aspect, while every other lead in the tier (bar Froslass) doesn't suffer from this element. Also, I really need to address the comment you made regarding putting reg Swampert on offensive teams, because that's a farce... you'll never see regular Swampert on any good offensive team. Secondly, Regular Sharpedo is a very mediocre Pokemon in UU. So, fair enough if you try to bluff with a Aero+Sharp core, but shame if you ever come across any priority user, especially Entei (which can now clean better than ever due to the immediate constraints you've placed on the team) as well as any standard wall. There are definitely scenarios where regular Aerodactyl can thrive, but those scenarios are limited and are seemingly obvious. With all due respect to the players that use standard Lead Aero, it's not much of a challenge. One aspect where Aero is effective is against Rapid Spin users, where Double Edge can recoil Aero and it will faint before rocks can be removed. However, Explosion Azelf is far more effective at this, since you can revenge kill a weakened Mega Blastoise/Forretress fairly easily with a common offensive option. Bluffing Mega Aero works against players than can't recognize team cohesiveness, but it'll rarely work against a good player (seriously, if lead aero was good, we would give it the usage it deserves just based on sheer effectiveness alone).

Also, beating Azelf isn't an unexpected thing for any Aero set, and is, in fact, one of Aero's only advantages. If it taunts turn one against Rocks Azelf without Mega Evolving, I know exactly how to handle that lead aero, as should any half-decent player, since handling leads is a common occurrence. And again, I cannot emphasize the obvious nature of an aero lead: signs of an Aero lead include: (1) no other Stealth Rock capable mon on the team; (2) another obvious Mega slot; (3) A need for a fast paced suicide lead setter (team dependent - think Nidoking and Crawdaunt as partners). Furthermore, based on the tier itself, lead Aerodactyl struggles to find a dedicated lead slot on many offensive teams due to the competition it faced from, overall, more effective leads against a larger portion of the meta. It has nothing to do with "Insert random Azelf slot here", rather, it has to do with the fact that Azelf has multiple effective sets that involve setting rocks and it targets different Pokemon, which adds to its unpredictable nature.

So yeah, at the risk of repeating myself further, lead aero is mediocre as tits.

 

[Garchomp for president]

So the Gastrodon conversation just kinda died so

I would like to re-nominate Gastrodon for C+ Rank.

Gastrodon shares the same amazing typing as Swampert, but trades Stealth Rock for a reliable recovery move in Recover. But I feel for most teams, Gastrodon's niche as a general wall and water absorber is not needed which is why Gastrodon should be restricted to C+ only. Storm Drain can give Gastrodon some interesting attacking options but I feel it does not have the potential to be a Storm Drain sweeper. Apart from that, Gastrodon recieves Memento, Ice Beam, Curse and Pain Split, offering a different but extraordinary niche role. With underpar stats, Gastrodon in my opinion only deserves C at most. At least list Gastrodon ._.

 

[JuanchoTacorta]

So the Gastrodon conversation just kinda died so

I would like to re-nominate Gastrodon for C+ Rank.

Gastrodon shares the same amazing typing as Swampert, but trades Stealth Rock for a reliable recovery move in Recover. But I feel for most teams, Gastrodon's niche as a general wall and water absorber is not needed which is why Gastrodon should be restricted to C+ only. Storm Drain can give Gastrodon some interesting attacking options but I feel it does not have the potential to be a Storm Drain sweeper. Apart from that, Gastrodon recieves Memento, Ice Beam, Curse and Pain Split, offering a different but extraordinary niche role. With underpar stats, Gastrodon in my opinion only deserves C at most. At least list Gastrodon ._.

Seconding Gastro nomination before it dies again. Curse Gastro has been a thread in OU for some time ago and despite UU has more common grass types as well as levitating dragons, it has potential to sweep on semi-stall builds. Defensive sets are like Seismitoad with no SR (but Recover) and it's good option if you need a Scald absorber with some offensive pressure, and unlike Quagsire Gastro has decent special bulk. Lastly, add Clear Smog to its support movepool (and please don't use Pain Split) C+/B-

 

[YABO]

Let me preface this by saying I don't have a strong opinion on the placing of normal Aerodactyl, I just disagree with how it's been discussed here.
King UU

Consistency is what gives it a rank at C+ in the first place, and that's not a bad thing. The problem with lead Aero is that it's useless outside of its lead aspect, while every other lead in the tier (bar Froslass) doesn't suffer from this element.

That's the point, it leads. It's not Aerodactyl's responsibility to ensure that the rocks stay up after its done its job. Aerodactyl is the most reliable rocker in the tier, fact. Hell, Aero has been the best at setting up rocks since gen 4 and nothing has changed other than the devaluation of the lead slot as a whole.

Also, I really need to address the comment you made regarding putting reg Swampert on offensive teams, because that's a farce... you'll never see regular Swampert on any good offensive team. Secondly, Regular Sharpedo is a very mediocre Pokemon in UU.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/empire.3507503/ ???

So, fair enough if you try to bluff with a Aero+Sharp core, but shame if you ever come across any priority user, especially Entei (which can now clean better than ever due to the immediate constraints you've placed on the team) as well as any standard wall. There are definitely scenarios where regular Aerodactyl can thrive, but those scenarios are limited and are seemingly obvious. With all due respect to the players that use standard Lead Aero, it's not much of a challenge. One aspect where Aero is effective is against Rapid Spin users, where Double Edge can recoil Aero and it will faint before rocks can be removed. However, Explosion Azelf is far more effective at this, since you can revenge kill a weakened Mega Blastoise/Forretress fairly easily with a common offensive option.

Fair enough, but in the same vein, Aerodactyl is doing the job you set out to do when you choose it. Like jjoshcja said, you pick Aero to sure up your offensive matchup (still good versus fat builds just due the fact that you always get rocks). Also, partnering with Mega Swampert is likely the better choice in most circumstances just for the added bulk. Additionally, if we're just directly comparing Azelf to Aero, Aero is doing a hell of a lot more in terms of padding your Entei matchup but whatever.

Bluffing Mega Aero works against players than can't recognize team cohesiveness, but it'll rarely work against a good player (seriously, if lead aero was good, we would give it the usage it deserves just based on sheer effectiveness alone).

Again, fair enough, but when you see Swampert I usually just think it's regular pert, even on offensive teams. Sure, you know it's not mega Aero after it doesn't mega evolve, but before then you really just have to assume it is, especially due to the pittance of usage normal Aero gets. Just as an aside, especially when you're not paying full attention, using "team cohesion" to decide which pokemon is mega usually doesn't work. I can't count the number of times I wasn't completely focused and thought a player had all of Mega Absol, Blastoise, Swampert, and Sceptile. Gonna ignore the usage comment since despite my personal thoughts on usage correlating with viability, it isn't the public viewpoint.

Also, beating Azelf isn't an unexpected thing for any Aero set, and is, in fact, one of Aero's only advantages. If it taunts turn one against Rocks Azelf without Mega Evolving, I know exactly how to handle that lead aero, as should any half-decent player, since handling leads is a common occurrence. And again, I cannot emphasize the obvious nature of an aero lead: signs of an Aero lead include: (1) no other Stealth Rock capable mon on the team; (2) another obvious Mega slot; (3) A need for a fast paced suicide lead setter (team dependent - think Nidoking and Crawdaunt as partners). Furthermore, based on the tier itself, lead Aerodactyl struggles to find a dedicated lead slot on many offensive teams due to the competition it faced from, overall, more effective leads against a larger portion of the meta. It has nothing to do with "Insert random Azelf slot here", rather, it has to do with the fact that Azelf has multiple effective sets that involve setting rocks and it targets different Pokemon, which adds to its unpredictable nature.

I don't think it's particularly surprising that you know how to handle something after it reveals its set, that's how I'd say most players handle most things. Also, it's not strange for those teams to have other pokemon that can click Stealth rock. Pokemon that I've used in conjunction with Lead Aero in the past have included Cobalion, Metagross, Swampert, Krookodile, Bronzong, Mamoswine, Empoleon, Nidoking, and Azelf. Granted, not all of these teams were good but they functioned in some manner. One team that was good was a team that Hikari made and I ripped from somewhere. It was something along the lines of NP Luc, TR Reun, Lead Aero, Mega Swampert as the main hitters. The team as a whole excelled at pressuring the opposition to keep up rocks. Clicking Defog was thwarted by dangerous set up sweepers and a solid core that could all clean up when the opponent was weakened.

So yeah, at the risk of repeating myself further, lead aero is mediocre as tits.

No, it's highly specialized and performs its job at a crazy efficiency. It's up to the rest of the team to make sure setting up rocks wasn't pointless either through good play or good team structure. Poor turn management doesn't equate to a bad pokemon.