[QC Ready 2/3] Kangaskhan

Halcyon.

@Choice Specs
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This better be fucking OU banned

[Pros]

<ul>
<li>It has an amazing ability in Mega Forme, Parental Bond, that lets it attack twice in one turn.</li>
<li>Though its coverage might be sparse, it has exactly what it needs to succeed.</li>
<li>Power Up Punch becomes a pseudo-Swords Dance.</li>
<li>Sucker Punch lets it beat Gengar and Mega Gengar even if it has Substitute.</li>
<li>With 105/100/100 bulk, it doesn't have trouble finding times to Mega Evolve.</li>
<li>It is immune to Ghost, which is one of, if not the, best attacking type in the game right now.</li>
</ul>

[Cons]

<ul>
<li>Mega Kangaskhan has a bit of Four Moveslot Syndrome, having to choose its counters based on its coverage move</li>
<li>Without Crunch, it has to rely on 50/50s with Sucker Punch, especially with Pokemon like Gengar.</li>
</ul>

[Mega Evolution Recommendations]

set name: Setup Sweeper
move 1: Power-Up Punch
move 2: Return / Double Edge
move 3: Sucker Punch
move 4: Crunch / Earthquake
ability: Scrappy
item: Kangaskhanite
nature: Adamant / Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

<p>A Pokemon that can hit twice in one turn and boost its Attack by two stages while also inflicting damage is certainly no joke. Mega Kangaskhan is one of the premier threats in XY with a boosted 125 Attack and what is essentially a free Choice Band boost in Parental Bond. With this set, Kangaskhan attempts to boost its Attack with Power-Up Punch and proceed to smash through the opponents team mid- to late-game. Power-Up Punch should mainly be used to get an easy kill or when Kangaskhan forces a slower Pokemon out, such as Mamoswine or even faster ones weak to Sucker Punch such as Starmie. Once at +2, Kangaskhan can easily break through even the most dedicated physical walls. Even Pokemon like Slowbro and Gliscor are OHKOed by +2 Return after Stealth Rock. Return is the main STAB option; it is simultaneously powerful and maintains Kangaskhan's bulk. However, Double Edge can be used if more power is desired, as the latter will OHKO defensive Hippowdon after Stealth Rock 100% of the time at +2. Sucker Punch is also an important move, as it can allow it to beat faster Pokemon and certain Ghosts such as a four attacks Gengar or Mega Gengar, Starmie, and Alakazam. It is also good for picking off weakened neutral opponents as well. Finally, Earthquake is Mega Mangaskhan's only option to hit Aegislash with out having to resort to Sucker Punch, doing upwards of 75% unboosted. However, Kangaskhan does have problems hitting Ghost-types that use Will-O-Wisp, so Crunch can be used in the final slot instead of Earthquake. This also lets it beat Sub Disable Gengar, which otherwise stops it cold.</p>

<p>A Jolly nature can be useful if outspeeding things like Jolly/Timid Lucario is important, as well as Speed tying other positive base 100 Speed Pokemon, and outspeeding neutral natured ones. If boosting Mega Kangaskhan's Attack isn't necessary, Substitute can be a good option to use instead of Power-Up Punch. This makes it incredibly difficult for offensive teams to deal with, as with a Substitute up, it basically means something will lose to a Return + Sucker Punch combo. Substitute can be used over Sucker Punch to better deal with stall teams, as they will struggle to break the Substitute while you set up with Power-Up Punch. Fire Blast can be used in the last slot, as it let's Mega Kangaskhan beat Skarmory and Gourgeist at the same time, while also doing decent damage to Aegislash. However, it isn't boosted by Power-Up Punch, making it usually an inferior choice. In terms of teammates, Scolipede is an amazing partner. It resists Fighting and can pass both Speed and Attack boosts to Mega Kangaskhan, easing a sweep. Ghost types like Chandelure and Gengar can be useful partners for Mega Kangaskhan as well. They are immune to Fighting and can eliminate Trevenant and Gourgeist. Mixed Aegislash in particular works well with Mega Kangaskhan, as it lures in physical walls like Skarmory and Rotom and can weaken them with powerful a Shadow Ball. Other powerful physical attackers also work well with Kangaskhan, wearing down its counters such as Skarmory. Dragonite also works, being able to hit Skarmory with Choice Band Fire Punch, which leaves it vulnerable to Kangaskhan if it switches in on Power-Up Punch.</p>

name: Revenge Killer
move 1: Fake Out
move 2: Sucker Punch
move 3: Return / Double Edge
move 4: Crunch / Earthquake
ability: Scrappy
item: Kangaskhanite
nature: Adamant / Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

<p>With two excellent priority moves that hit twice with Parental Bond, Mega Khangaskhan is easily one of the best revenge killers in the game. Fake Out is the first of these priority moves. Being a STAB move and higher priority than any other attacking move in the game means that even Gale Wings Talonflame can be taken out after Stealth Rock. Sucker Punch works very well in tandem with Fake Out. It also works to hit the Ghost-types that are immune to Fake Out and may try to attack Mega Kangaskhan such as Gengar. But simply relying on priority isn't all Mega Kangaskhan is useful for. It also has a powerful STAB Return that can hit slower threats that may want to burn Mega Kangaskhan instead of attacking it such as Rotom-W. Double Edge can also be used, as this Mega Kangaskhan can't boost its Attack, so it appreciates all the extra power it can get. Earthquake is mainly used to hit Steel-types and Rock-types that resist Return, such as Aegislash and Tyranitar.</p>

<p>Fire Blast can be used in the last slot to hit Skarmory and Gourgeist on their weaker defensive side, while still 2HKOing Aegislash. Coincidentally, mixed Aegislash also happens to be a great partner to Mega Kangaskhan. It lures in counters such as Skarmory, Hippowdon, and Gliscor and can nail them with a STAB Shadow Ball, making it easier for Kangaskhan to remove them later in the game. Powerful wallbreakers work best with Mega Kangaskhan so that it can more easily take the opposing Pokemon down with just a Fake Out + Sucker Punch. Pokemon such as Hydreigon can wear down the opposing Pokemon so that Kangaskhan can pick them off more easily. Physically inclined Pokemon such as Dragonite and Lucario can also work well with Kangaskhan in order to wear down physical walls such as Slowbro and Hippowdon, which otherwise are a full stop to Mega Kangaskhan. It also causes a lot of switches , so a good hazards setter works wonders with Mega Kangaskhan. Pokemon such as Stealth Rock Tyranitar and Spikes Greninja work very well in this role due to them being able to switch into Ghost-types fairly easily and hit them for super effective damage.</p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>Countering Mega Kangaskhan comes down to finding out what set it's running, because its counters change depending on the coverage moves it uses. Skarmory is usually the best counter to Mega Kangaskhan, as Fire Blast is a rare choice for the last moveslot. It can Whirlwind away ones trying to boost with Power-Up Punch, and can take repeated Returns from the revenge killer set. Gourgeist, Trevenant, Sableye, and other Ghost-types with access to Will-O-Wisp can usually handle Mega Kangaskhan well, at least forcing it out. Though they all have to watch out for +2 Parental Bond Crunch. If Mega Kangaskhan doesn't have any boosts, dedicated physical walls such as Hippowdon and Slowbro can take an unboosted Return and phase it out or cripple it, respectively. As for offensive checks, Pokemon that outspeed, resist Sucker Punch and can OHKO back are great checks to Mega Kangaskhan. Mega Lucario can easily take even a +2 Sucker Punch and OHKO with Adaptability Close Combat. Pokemon such as Rocky Helmet Garchomp and Ferrothorn can also make decent checks to Mega Kangaskhan, as it will be taking close to 60% damage from Rough Skin/Iron Barbs and Rocky Helmet recoil. This can allow priority users such as Azumarill or Mega Lucario to take it out.</p>
 
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No mention of physical walls? Slowbro, Skarmory, Hippowdon, and Vaporeon are some Pokemon that can cripple/phaze it.
 
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Halcyon.

@Choice Specs
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No mention of physical walls? Slowbro, Skarmory, Hippowdon, and Vaporeon are some Pokemon that can cripple/phaze it.
You're right that I should add Skarmory, that completely slipped my mind. But believe it or not, if Slowbro and Vaporeon switch in on a Power Up Punch, they can both be OHKOed by Return, and easily by Double Edge. Hippowdon also has about an 18% chance to be OHKOed by +2 Return and a guaranteed one with Double Edge...still, if it isn't at +2 they can all cripple it/phaze it like you said so I'll add those in. Thanks Fuzznip.

Calcs to prove I'm not insane (the Choice Band simulates Parental Bond):

+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 402-474 (95.71 - 112.85%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 342-403 (81.42 - 95.95%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 360-424 (91.37 - 107.61%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 334-394 (84.98 - 100.25%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 525-618 (113.39 - 133.47%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
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ShootingStarmie

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"Baton Pass Blaziken makes an amazing partner for Mega Kangaskhan, breaking through Skarm and passing speed and SD boosts"

Instead of Baton Pass Blaziken, I'd just mention Fire types in general are great partners, as they can break through Steel and Ghost types.

QC APPROVED (1/3)
 

Zystral

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I'm assuming that 252 Spd means Speed, or Spe?

Would Bulldoze potentially be an option? Given that it'll halve the opponent's Speed, that might allow you to shift some EVs out of Speed into HP, giving it a little more bulk. You lose some damage on Aegislash, which might be unfavourable.

Regarding checks and counters, I've found that whenever I see a Kangaskhan facing me, I often end up saying "shiiiiit", because it's so hard to deal with for a team that doesn't prepare exactly for it. Either weird-ass variants of Gengar that carry Will-O-Wisp or Drifblim can really look it in the face and say "no".
Rotom needs to be in base forme, which is pretty sucky, because the other appliances lose Ghost-type.

I'm guessing Gliscor is too frail, as is Weezing - there's no real way of abusing its poor coverage, because it just has enough power with Return. The only things I can think of that are fast enough to kill it before it uses Return, and can still survive Sucker Punch would be Terrakion, Cobalion, MAYBE Mega Lucario, but I've yet to run any real calcs.
 

Halcyon.

@Choice Specs
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I agree that Kangaskhan is a monster and that I hate facing it because there are so few reliable checks/counters to it.

Anyway, I'm intrigued by Bulldoze. Once PS updates the mechanics on Parental Bond, Bulldoze actually has a chance of OHKOing Aegislash at +2 and 2HKOing with some Spikes support. I'd like to ask the rest of QC what they think of Bulldoze considering halving a Pokémon's speed is pretty cool on something as powerful as Mega Kangaskhan.
 

alexwolf

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As Halcyon said, Bulldoze is amazing on a Pokemon that hits as hard as Mega Kangashkhan. Imo, it should be slashed before EQ unless there are some very important OHKO/2HKOes that are missed without it.

I am proud of you Kangaskhan!
 

AccidentalGreed

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I'd personally much rather have the guaranteed chance to KOing Aegislash without any boosts, since in a common scenario, Kanga is going to switch into Aegislash using Swords Dance, King's Shield, or using Shadow Sneak. It has to be able to KO without being subsequently hit by Sacred Sword or Iron Head, but otherwise, I think it's a pretty cool move just for the speed lowering aspect, and that it allows Kanga to lower a few Speed EVs, but just a few. Slash it before or after.
 

Halcyon.

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I agree that the OHKO on Aegislash is really important, so I'm slashing Bulldoze second. It's still a really cool move though. What EV spread would you suggest for those running it?
 

alexwolf

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Just to be clear, i wouldn't lower Kanga's Speed EVs even when using Bulldoze. You are not running Bulldoze in order to use more HP EVs, you are using it to get past would-be faster checks easier and with less prediction.
 

Halcyon.

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Just to be clear, i wouldn't lower Kanga's Speed EVs even when using Bulldoze. You are not running Bulldoze in order to use more HP EVs, you are using it to get past would-be faster checks easier and with less prediction.
Ok, I wasn't sure if there was some sort of change I was missing, because AG said it let it lower some Speed EVs.
 

AccidentalGreed

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Yeah, on second thought, it's great in concept, but Kanga also appreciates the ability to outrun things like Lucario naturally, so leave it at 4/252/252 for now. IT's just a preview, after all.
 

Halcyon.

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User The Leprechaun suggested a revenge killer set, so I wanted QC's thoughts on it. Here it is:

Kangaskhan @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Sucker Punch
- Return
- Earthquake

Fake Out + Sucker Punch is actually really good in taking out Pokémon. For example, Fake Out can revenge kill Talonflame after Stealth Rock, and does 77-91% to Blaziken, meaning that it has a great chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock + LO. Anyway, I wanted to see what everyone else thinks about this because I think it has merit, I just don't know if its OO material or if it deserves its own set. I didn't want to slash Fake Out with PuP because I think these two sets are played very differently.
 

alexwolf

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Seems ok as a second set to me Halcyon. The first set focuses on sweeping / wallbreaking while the second focuses on revenge killing but is not a bad wallbreaker either.
 
Yeah that set is respectable. It's not really a wallbreaker alex like the first set (I don't see it getting past the likes of Hippowdon/Slowbro/Skarmory/etc), but simply just a very effective revenge killer.
 
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alexwolf

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It's not as a good wallbreaker as the first set but it's not like it's easy to switch into either. Adamant Double-Edge has a 91.41% chance of 2HKOing physically defensive Hippowdon, the best physical wall of OU. It can't get past a few things (only Skarmory comes to mind) but saying it's not a decent wallbreaker is an understatement. I would slash Drain Punch after EQ on the second set, for teams that have very solid anti-Aegislash measures (are there such teams?) as its recovery is hugely appreciated and other than Aegislash you are not missing any significant OHKO/2HKO that i can think of but you can deal with Ferrothorn much easier.
 
In my opinion, the first set will work much better with Jolly than Adamant as it can out speed adamant Lucario and tier with base 100. As a sweeper, speed is really important and sometimes with a bit different in speed can cost you the whole game.
 

Halcyon.

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In my opinion, the first set will work much better with Jolly than Adamant as it can out speed adamant Lucario and tier with base 100. As a sweeper, speed is really important and sometimes with a bit different in speed can cost you the whole game.
Hmmm...Adamant Mega Kangaskhan already outspeeds Adamant Lucario, and regular Kangaskhan speed ties with it. Without Adamant, you lose out on some pretty significant KOs (the most significant of which that I found was the OHKO on Hippowdon at +2, and the 2HKO on Aegilsash at +0 using Bulldoze), so I'm not totally convinced that Jolly should be the main slash. I'm not completely opposed to slashing it after Adamant, but simply outspeeding Lucario, Haxorus, and Hydreigon in normal forme isn't enough in my eyes, especially since Pokémon below base 100 Speed tend to run neutral natures.
 

ginganinja

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Not excited by the Fake Out set (and I know im not the only QC member who thinks this iirc), so hold off until we can discuss it more. Everything else looks good tho, and will get back to you asap.
 
Sucker Punch lets it beat Gengar and Mega Gengar even if it has Substitute.
Assuming Gengar doesn't Mega-Evolve, if Sub-Gengar only attacks whenever it has a sub, how does Sucker Punch remedy that situation?

It is relatively weak without a boost.
While it's certainly a lot scarier with a +2 boost (and you could say that for the vast majority of pokemon), M-Khan has a Choice Band off 125 attack, nothing at all to sneeze it. He still 2HKOs, if not outright KOs, basically everything that's not a defensive wall at +0.
 
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Ah right right, but M-Khan still doesn't OHKO at +0, which allows Gengar to reliably switch in:

252+ Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 144-170 (54.96 - 64.88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(
I changed the BP of Sucker punch to a third of 80 to simulate the second hit)

M-Khan fails to OHKO regular Black Sludge Gengar behind a Sub, let alone Mega-Gengar.
 

Halcyon.

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Regular Gengar also can't OHKO Kangaskhan with Focus Blast (has about a 6% chance after Rocks), so it's still a bad switch-in to Mega Kangaskhan.

252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kangaskhan: 262-310 (74.43 - 88.06%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 

PK Gaming

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AC Substitute. It lets Kanghaskan beat the everloving shit out of offensive teams and certain checks if it sets one up.

<li>It has bad four-moveslot-syndrome.</li>
Mega Kanga has everything it needs to succeed with it's default moveset so i'd remove this.

In your checks and counters section:
-Scarf Pangoro isn't worth mentioning
-Mega Scizor can barely switch in, let alone set up on it. It's a good check, but it can't get greedy
 

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